AMD Makes An Evolutionary Leap In Linux Support

[phoronix]

Phoronix: AMD Makes An Evolutionary Leap In Linux Support

Less than a year ago we shared with you the revolutionary steps AMD was taking to deliver significant improvements to their once infamous proprietary Linux display driver and at the same time the work they were doing to foster the growth of an open-source driver for their latest graphics card families. These steps have certainly paid off for both AMD and the Linux community at large. AMD's proprietary driver is now on par with NVIDIA's Linux driver and there are two open-source ATI drivers picking up new features and improvements on an almost daily basis. AMD also continues to publish new programming guides and register information on a routine basis for their latest and greatest hardware. This has been truly phenomenal to see, but AMD has now evolved their Linux support by taking it a large step further. AMD is in the process of pushing new high-end features into their Linux driver -- such as Multi-GPU CrossFire support -- and with the ATI Radeon HD 4850 they have even begun showing off Tux, the Linux mascot, on their product packaging and providing Linux drivers on their product CDs!

http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=12495

[Vadi]

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(there's a post character limit, ok)

[sundown]

That's pumped up :)
AMD are on fire...

[Zhick]

Awesome. I highly doubt though that the Card-Sellers put tux on their boxes. In that case they'd have to offer support for linux as well, which they probably aren't prepared for.

Btw, that 48xx on the third page looks totally rad. ;)

[zsouthboy]

Amazing.

Finally some props.
My next card may be an ATI one, again, if they keep this up. (And I'll go back to telling others its okay to buy an ATI card if you intend to run linux!)

[curaga]

Penguin on the box! Finally!

Kudos AMD

[NeoBrain]

very interesting news :)
If CrossFire isn't enough to satisfy you, well, AMD is working on other exciting Linux features too. We'll have to tell you about those on another day, but feel free to share your hopes and speculations in the Phoronix Forums.
My special hope would be DRI2 support, but I fear this is one thing which we won't see this year :(

[Svartalf]

AMD's proprietary driver is now on par with NVIDIA's Linux driver and there are two open-source ATI drivers picking up new features and improvements on an almost daily basis.


Cool news overall and it's greatly appreciated (Thanks John and Co.!! :D)- but I'd hardly call it at being "on par" with NVidia's drivers.


AMD is in the process of pushing new high-end features into their Linux driver -- such as Multi-GPU CrossFire support


High-end features such as SLI are part of the NVidia offering, and while they're not as robust as the single card mode, we've had SLI for a while now. That's not "on par" yet- tell us this when the AMD team has Crossfire in place... :D

Though solidly working in single card mode and the penguin on the box is VERY much appreciated and VERY GOOD news all the same. Might even consider getting an eval board in the R600 series to verify function on customer apps. (I probably will with the first box with a Penguin on it spotted and me having a bit of free budget...)

[d2kx]

CrossFire X will be the leading MultiGPU technology. This is because CrossFire X is capable of running any CrossFire X-compatible cards. If you for example have got a RV670 for some time now, and want to have some more performance, you can just buy a new RV770 and combine those two cards which are of different generations. You could also use a RV670, a RV770Pro and a RV770XT. This is a confirmed feature for Windows and due to using the same codebase it should also work fine with Linx.

[StringCheesian]

Wow, that rocks!

BTW: grammar error in last paragraph: "Once again, apologizes that the".

[Michael]

Wow, that rocks!

BTW: grammar error in last paragraph: "Once again, apologizes that the".

Doh, thanks, fixed.

[[Knuckles]]

I have Geforces 8600GT, 6600, FX5200, 4 MX 440, 2 MX 400 * 2, Riva TNT 2 AGP, Riva TNT 2 PCI * 2 and a Riva TNT.

Next card is going to be AMD. Goodbye nvidia, you did well for a time, but your time is OVER!

Kudos to AMD!

[Aradreth]

;35792']Next card is going to be AMD. Goodbye nvidia, you did well for a time, but your time is OVER!

Kudos to AMD!
That's exactly what I was thinking.

[d2kx]

4800 series for real gamers and (upcoming) 4600 series for multimedia/middle-end games and integrated 780G/790GX for multimedia/lower-end games only should satisfy everyone who wants to switch over to AMD in the future...

[Dandel]

d2kx, very true, anyways don't ignore the 4600/3600 series of cards if your wanting to do a low cost gaming computer, because both of those will perform a lot better than most of the older cards that are on the market... as for a quick note, i can't wait for crossfire support to become completely available on linux.

[timofonic]

All this is good, but it's really PITA that AMD/ATI drivers aren't compatible with the latest stable Linux kernel available. That's one of the advantages of Nvidia drivers and that's why I'm considering get an Nvidia soon.

If this doesn't change, maybe I will need to change to Nvidia. Sorry, but I prefer to be able to update the kernel to the latest one than having the AMD alternative.

And keep in mind that Nouveau project progress a lot more than some people may think, being usable for NV40 cards and even showing quite interesting results in 3D support. So in practice Nvidia has better FOSS support, even if isn't official by Nvidia (they should hire those guys for working full time on Nouveau, but that's another matter).

[Kano]

Do you want a Linux live distro with autoinstaller for fglrx 8-6 and kernel 2.6.26 (also includes Nvidia 177.13) and my favorite test: gl2benchmark?

[NeoBrain]

All this is good, but it's really PITA that AMD/ATI drivers aren't compatible with the latest stable Linux kernel available. That's one of the advantages of Nvidia drivers and that's why I'm considering get an Nvidia soon.

If this doesn't change, maybe I will need to change to Nvidia. Sorry, but I prefer to be able to update the kernel to the latest one than having the AMD alternative.

And keep in mind that Nouveau project progress a lot more than some people may think, being usable for NV40 cards and even showing quite interesting results in 3D support. So in practice Nvidia has better FOSS support, even if isn't official by Nvidia (they should hire those guys for working full time on Nouveau, but that's another matter).

Just because it works "quite well" that doesn't mean the FOSS support is better.
The radeon and radeonhd drivers already got full (and stable) 2D accel on anything up to R500 (R600 too I think) and many 3D games already work very well.
I understand you point, but a reverse engineered driver will never outperform a well written driver that was written using provided docs.

[sundown]

4800 series for real gamers and (upcoming) 4600 series for multimedia/middle-end games and integrated 780G/790GX for multimedia/lower-end games only should satisfy everyone who wants to switch over to AMD in the future...

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Powercolor/HD_4850/

[d2kx]

timofonic, fglrx supports latest stable kernel series since last month and the unstable kernel series is supported with external patches, as Kano already mentioned. Open Source-wise, AMD is/will be leading if nVidia does no announce own plans soon...

I forget to say that Michael's cards look awesome :D

sundown, they broke the NDA, because it is only allowed to post benchmarks today, and nothing else like power consumption, fan noise etc.

[project_phelius]

It’s come a long way I agree but none of the drivers have matured for me yet.
I bought a used Asus x800xl pcie (an upgrade from the radeon 9250).
I cried bloody tears when fglrx dropped 9250 support because the radeon driver was
a mess back then. Disabling DRI was the only way to guarantee my computer wouldn’t freeze overnight.

for my x800xl, the fglrx driver is the fastest but least stable, so I use radeon. The radeon driver hasn’t been really stable for me until this latest RC 6.8.191. And going off my glxgears tests, radeon is about 2/3 the speed of fglrx.

So I’ve been using radeon drivers for a long time and it’s still heart-ache. No point spending big bucks for a card when I can’t get the performance and features out of it. Probably another year before ATI drivers mature: open and closed. But I’m staying open-source.

Keep up the great work radeon driver guys !!!

[Tillin9]

Kudos to AMD/ATI on all their efforts. However, we still don't have anywhere near feature parity. While CrossFire on Linux is a nice goal, its not important. I'm not aware of any Linux games that need it, and most hardcore gamers are not going to be Linux only anyway...

I'd much rather effort be put on making things stable. 8.6 is a big step in the right direction, nothing broke for me and I got a nice speedup on my X850 XT. However, lots of people have problems and Iget the dual X server bug myself. Just remember to please, please, please get r300 cards fully working! Fglrx has moved on, and the open source drivers have far too many issues with 3D. OpenGL fog, for example, doesn't seem to want to work, only OpenGL 1.3 is supported, etc.

[NeoBrain]

Kudos to AMD/ATI on all their efforts. However, we still don't have anywhere near feature parity. While CrossFire on Linux is a nice goal, its not important. I'm not aware of any Linux games that need it, and most hardcore gamers are not going to be Linux only anyway...

I'd much rather effort be put on making things stable. 8.6 is a big step in the right direction, nothing broke for me and I got a nice speedup on my X850 XT. However, lots of people have problems and Iget the dual X server bug myself. Just remember to please, please, please get r300 cards fully working! Fglrx has moved on, and the open source drivers have far too many issues with 3D. OpenGL fog, for example, doesn't seem to want to work, only OpenGL 1.3 is supported, etc.

I guess the CrossFire support is more symbolic, as they want to show us that they really stand behind Linux and try to support it as best as they can.
And actually there are many people who have a demand for CrossFire.
Also, as Michael always wrote in past AMD articles, users are crying for new features and so the fglrx devs somehow must "supply" them with something ;-)

[immudium]

Unfortunately, Phoronix, at times, does not seem completely impartial towards AMD's and NVidia's respective closed source driver efforts so I feel I must always take any information about either product cautiously. However, the article definitely contains some encouraging promises. For starters, giving their linux support proper advertising treatment does give them alot of extra bonus points with me. But there is one single, uber feature that would get me to switch and buy all new AMD cards immediately for my Linux desktops and that is x264 hardware acceleration. I do alot of x264 encoding of my own personal movies and recordings and the lack of driver support for this hardware feature in both products bothers me quite a bit as decoding takes up quite a bit of precious CPU resources. So while nothing was revealed in this article which would convince me to buy AMD or that they are in any way the superior closed (or open) source product, they've certainly got my attention. I hope they can deliver.

[Louise]

I can't help but think what AMD's plans are, when R500 and R600 have 2D/3D support out-of-the-box in Ubuntu/Fedora/Suse.

Will they brand their graphics cards as "Linux Ready" on the box too?

[Michael]

Unfortunately, Phoronix, at times, does not seem completely impartial towards AMD's and NVidia's respective closed source driver efforts so I feel I must always take any information about either product carefully. However, the article definitely contains some encouraging information. For starters, giving their linux support proper advertising treatment does give them alot of extra bonus points with me. But there is one single, uber feature that would get me to switch and buy all new AMD cards immediately for my Linux desktops and that is x264 hardware acceleration. The OpenGL implementation and the rest of the driver could be crap for all I care, but I do alot of x264 encoding of my own personal movies and recordings and the lack of driver support in both products bothers me quite a bit. So while nothing was revealed in this article which would convince me to buy AMD or that they are in any way the superior closed (or open) source product, they've certainly got my attention. I hope AMD delivers.

Actually, as part of AMD's strategy, they will be having new work going on in the area of video playback. However, you'll need to wait and see what that entails.

[timofonic]

Do you want a Linux live distro with autoinstaller for fglrx 8-6 and kernel 2.6.26 (also includes Nvidia 177.13) and my favorite test: gl2benchmark?

timofonic, fglrx supports latest stable kernel series since last month and the unstable kernel series is supported with external patches, as Kano already mentioned. Open Source-wise, AMD is/will be leading if nVidia does no announce own plans soon...


I had several problems trying to use the kernel module of Catalyst 8.5 under my Linux 2.6.25.x kernel installation. All problems about symbols being GPL and such, it was so pain that I stopped to use the close source driver and continue with the (slow in 3D and lacking lots of features) FOSS driver.

So maybe a very late and beta 8.5 supported it, because the GPL symbols was totally PITA. I tried (I have no clue about programming) to "patch" the symbols but failed again and again.

And what about this?


To the dismay of some users, Catalyst 8.6 for Linux doesn't support the Linux 2.6.26 kernel or X.Org 7.4 (X Server 1.5).

Maybe I should try it soon then...

Anyway, I see people overoptimistic here about AMD and I'm still kept skeptic. FOSS Radeon HD driver is still in the early steps and they aren't exactly boosting it, but at least it seems some kind of stable progress speed (and that's an exceptional thing in the Open Source world, with too unstable progressing in new projects). I think it will take months (and maybe more than a year) until FOSS drivers become really usable and enough powerful in the 3D side.

[sundown]

Will AMD fix those GPL symbols problems, BTW?

[oblivious_maximus]

I wholeheartedly applaud AMD's efforts to foster Linux support. I just bought an HD3870 a few days ago even though I haven't yet even been able to use the HD3650 I bought some months ago, because AMD is releasing their specs and soon enough I won't need to care about how non-functional fglrx is. But soon is not now, and so far, thanks to fglrx, I've had one ATI card gathering dust for months now, and another that's about to start doing so for who knows how long. Presently fglrx is the only option if I want to use the SVIDEO out, and it doesn't even work for that! Who cares if they add crossfire support when you have to deal with all the issues?

If AMD can produce a feature-complete driver for Windows that you can use without constant fear of unrecoverable lockups, then they're certainly capable of doing the same for AT LEAST Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, OpenSUSE, and Slackware. The question is why isn't AMD living up to its potential?

Great stuff with Tux on the box though - I was just remarking to unintersted parties the other day, after noticing only Mircosoft OSes listed on the box of my HD3870, that AMD doesn't even put the distros they claim to support with fglrx on the box (of course it's really Sapphire who doesn't in this case). My theory on why was because they know if they put "runs on Linux" on the box people will probably sue them after they find out that it really means "runs on Linux if you're really fscking lucky". I guess my theory is about to be put to the test. Either that or fglrx is actually about to start not sucking so bad. For the record, I hope nobody sues AMD over false advertising of Linux support, and I really hope fglrx starts to actually improve to the point where saying it has feature parity with the windows driver isn't a gross exaggeration(edit: I'm considering not being horribly unstable a feature there btw).

Even with all the Linux love from AMD it's still really obvious that Linux gets short shrift in comparison to Windows as far as AMD making sure fglrx actually works goes.

Yeah, I'm really frustrated with buying crap that doesn't work.

[Kano]

Here something to demonstrate some ati errors (try gl2benchmark test 3+4 on BOTH nvidia geforce 6+ AND ati):

http://debian.tu-bs.de/project/kanotix/preview/kanotix-ng-bench-2.6.26-2-generic.iso
http://debian.tu-bs.de/project/kanotix/preview/kanotix-ng-bench-2.6.26-2-generic.iso.md5

this also demonstrates the fglrx patches for kernel 2.6.26 in my fglrx script based on:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/239967

[Rahux]

Aww *hugs ATI* Such a nice change. I'd bought this PC with an ATI card about 2 months before I made a decision to start playing with Linux (which I not run 95% of the time). Imagine my joy when I found out how dismal support for my card was. It's come a hell of a long way, and to be honest I'm more excited about the fact that the drivers are going into CDs than anything else. Visible signs that there is good support will make people curious about the Penguin.. for one of the first times anyone who buys hardware will see another OS put along-side Windows and Mac as an equal. That's huge.

[Jade]

A year or two ago I changed all my ATI cards for nvidia (in the boxes I use and sell).

Now I'm picking up a few boards with integrated ATI to see if I shouldn't change back to ATI.

Certainly worth another look. I am amazed that ATI has told the MS crowd to go stuff themselves.

[Aradreth]

Aww *hugs ATI* Such a nice change. I'd bought this PC with an ATI card about 2 months before I made a decision to start playing with Linux (which I not run 95% of the time). Imagine my joy when I found out how dismal support for my card was. It's come a hell of a long way, and to be honest I'm more excited about the fact that the drivers are going into CDs than anything else. Visible signs that there is good support will make people curious about the Penguin.. for one of the first times anyone who buys hardware will see another OS put along-side Windows and Mac as an equal. That's huge.
The drivers being on the CD doesn't really do much in my eyes. The Linux kernel moves to quickly compared to the windows one meaning new users should really use the distro's package manager to install it instead of the ones of the CD or they might end up without a working x.org when upgrading.

[negated]

I definitely applaud ATI/AMDs efforts. Who would that thought 5 years ago we'd be where we are today?

However, there is one big glaring piece of the puzzle missing; ATI/AMD makes some of the best TV tuners around (Theater 550, 600, 650, etc)...but where's the linux love?

I wish I could try MythTV, but until there's some support...

-S

[cruiseoveride]

finally i can buy ati hardware.
I have had to put up with nvidia crap for years.

it almost brings tears to my eyes.

[nzmm]

so going to get me a ATI/AMD card next!!!!!!!!!!

This is such great news!

[wmealing]

In regards to card sellers putting "linux" on their boxes.

Its not like they actually _support_ windows either ? try and get a bug fixed. The total sum of support is "re-install" if that doesn't work.. er... um.. umm.. go get the ones from $parentcompany.. bye !

[yoshi314]

I definitely applaud ATI/AMDs efforts. Who would that thought 5 years ago we'd be where we are today?actually i'd like to be 1 year later from here, with even more mature opensource drivers ;-)

[timofonic]

Here something to demonstrate some ati errors (try gl2benchmark test 3+4 on BOTH nvidia geforce 6+ AND ati):

http://debian.tu-bs.de/project/kanotix/preview/kanotix-ng-bench-2.6.26-2-generic.iso
http://debian.tu-bs.de/project/kanotix/preview/kanotix-ng-bench-2.6.26-2-generic.iso.md5

this also demonstrates the fglrx patches for kernel 2.6.26 in my fglrx script based on:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/239967

You mentioned the magic word, PATCHES.

Why do I must patch the kernel all time just for AMD/ATI fglrx support? Why not just supported with the vanilla kernel? That stuff is PITA to the user, I just want to use the latest kernel for my distro (gentoo-sources in Gentoo, for example) and put the fglrx driver on it without need to do manual patching with every kernel update.

I think Nvidia makes things easier, as they are more compatible with latest Linux kernels without need of patching all time. What do you think?

Sorry if this can be half offtopic or seem like trolling to some people, but I think being overoptimistic instead critical and objective makes companies lazy in their efforts.

OT: I think closed source drivers must be totally eliminated from the FLOSS world at long term, this situation is ridicule and against the spirit of the Free Source movement. I see some hope, as it seems companies are starting to understand it or at least being moved to it in a frictional way. I think all this problems with closed source drivers never would exist if these drivers were FOSS.

[Kano]

You don't patch the kernel, you patch the DRIVER. Don't get this wrong.

[Redeeman]

You don't patch the kernel, you patch the DRIVER. Don't get this wrong.
except in the cases where you... patch the kernel... Think unexported symbols like in 8.5 and 2.6.25 x86_64....

[Redeeman]

You mentioned the magic word, PATCHES.

Why do I must patch the kernel all time just for AMD/ATI fglrx support? Why not just supported with the vanilla kernel? That stuff is PITA to the user, I just want to use the latest kernel for my distro (gentoo-sources in Gentoo, for example) and put the fglrx driver on it without need to do manual patching with every kernel update.

I think Nvidia makes things easier, as they are more compatible with latest Linux kernels without need of patching all time. What do you think?

Sorry if this can be half offtopic or seem like trolling to some people, but I think being overoptimistic instead critical and objective makes companies lazy in their efforts.

OT: I think closed source drivers must be totally eliminated from the FLOSS world at long term, this situation is ridicule and against the spirit of the Free Source movement. I see some hope, as it seems companies are starting to understand it or at least being moved to it in a frictional way. I think all this problems with closed source drivers never would exist if these drivers were FOSS.

Dont think for a second that nvidia isnt also shit.. Gentoo just shields you from most of the kernel incompatibility by having the patches applied for you.

[Kano]

Yes, for new nvidia drivers you have problems when XEN is enabled. Then you run into gpl only problems. But not so many users really need XEN. Could get a bit tricky for Ubuntu Intrepid as they enable XEN by default. At least I don't know of a working patch for 173+ (worked up to 171).

[M1AU]

Good news!
However, as a so called hardcore linux gamer I still stick with Nvidia cards until all of my favourite games work flawlessly on ATI cards.
I'm still reading posts about other users reporting grapical glitches or even game client crashes with games such as Transgamings EVE-Online or, Savage 2 when using the fglrx drivers.
Also as long as radeon or radeon-hd doesn't support the latest 3D features, it absolutely makes no sense to me switching over to an ATI pendant.

Nvidia also has its bugs and sometimes I even have to reinstall the driver after an distribution package update which of course sucks, but at least I'm getting quite good performance on the latest games out of it.

Oh, and no. Even as a gamer I absolutely do not intend to use Windows anymore on any of my machines.

[Lothar]

Actually, as part of AMD's strategy, they will be having new work going on in the area of video playback. However, you'll need to wait and see what that entails.

The article said that none of the open source drivers currently had UVD support. How about the closed source driver? If this feature were available, I would switch over immediately.

[Redeeman]

yeah i dont believe fglrx is in a usable state yet.. So again, when not needing top notch performance, intel is still the better choice, unfortunately :|

[sundown]

Well, I'd buy an ATi card next time... maybe one of those phenom/spider platforms or whatever, who knows. As a friend said it, I guess I like to stick with the loser/underdog (sports wise) :D

BUT this really depends on the state of radeonhd at the end of the year. I don't mind going back and forth between radeonhd and fglrx if I want to play games.

[he_the_great]

I'm interested in knowing what will happen with Hybrid CrossFireX. Since CrossFireX is coming I would assume that Hybrid will get here. And like others have said it isn't about will but when. I suppose I'm less interested on the Linux side of things but more on what Cards are supporting it.

I'm upgrading probably at the end of the year, in hopes for a better view of what will be happing. But I know I'm going with AMD, and the next GFX card will be ATi I just want to know what technology I should try for.

[Michael]

Intel/AMD CPU Discussion Moved To: http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10963 In order to keep this thread on track.

[bridgman]

As I understand it Hybrid CF is aimed at cases where the add-in GPU is comparable in power to the GPU integrated into the chipset, eg a 780 and an HD3450. If the add-in GPU is a lot more powerful than the IGP then AFAIK you're generally better off only using one GPU at a time.

[he_the_great]

Bridgman, I think that was pretty much I was afraid of. Seems a little narrow minded, hopefully they have bigger plans for later.

[Kano]

Both nvidia + ati hybrid solutions are pretty much useless. A real gamer will never buy a lowend gfx card and bundle it with an onboard solution. Even when it technically works, the speed is much slower then the midrange gfx card series. So the real question is how need the minimum higher performance compared to pure onboard and does not need the performance of the higher level gfx cards? I think absolutely nobody - maybe as marketing gag for cheap systems with SLI or Crossfire sticker on em...

[he_the_great]

Your right who needs dual core when you can have 1 core that is just as fast as the dual combined. As for what it is right now I would agree that it is not worth it, but if it was what I expect, 2 gfxs cards working as together without needed to be the same performance, then I would be great. on another Note, I don't think CrossFire is worth it either.

[bridgman]

Bridgman, I think that was pretty much I was afraid of. Seems a little narrow minded, hopefully they have bigger plans for later.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying "we can't support it" I'm saying "it's not a very good idea" ;)

The multi-gpu overhead can cost you as much or more as you get from the slower GPU. Remember that we have perhaps 8:1 performance difference between high end and low end cards, eg 320 ALUs in a 3870 vs 40 ALUs in a 3450 or 780.

AFAIK we already support mismatched cards in CrossfireX but we try to only enable it in cases where you get an actual improvemt.

[some-guy]

Your right who needs dual core when you can have 1 core that is just as fast as the dual combined. As for what it is right now I would agree that it is not worth it, but if it was what I expect, 2 gfxs cards working as together without needed to be the same performance, then I would be great. on another Note, I don't think CrossFire is worth it either.
Dual Core has each core in parallel processing, so each core does a different chunk, this is what makes it better ;)

[mtippett]

A couple of clarifications.

Hybrid Crossfire

Hybrid Crossfire requires two 3D cores of the same class. In this case the 780G and HD 3840 have a common core (RV610/RV620). This is so the Crossfire approach can work.

In terms of performance, Hybrid Graphics is not intended for hardcore gamers. It is for the entry-level or casual gamer. The person who bought a $700 desktop system with a 780G, and decide that a $50 upgrade for a second card will allow them to game at around 1280x1024 with current mainstream games.

The 3840 upgrade (http://www.google.com/products?q=hd3450)
Some Hybrid Crossfire Benchmarks (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-780g-chipset,1785-10.html)

In general, Crossfire has greatest scaling when the graphics hardware is the limiting factor. This results in Hybrid Crossfire (780G + HD3840) having high scaling (as per the benchmarks)

CrossfireX

CrossfireX is still what is called Symmetric Crossfire which means two matching families of cards running together. This usually means any of the HD38x0 family.


As per Michael's article on the RV770, we can confirm that Crossfire is coming for the HD 4850 family. As for the other modes as discussed, they are obviously not currently supported.

Regards,

Matthew

[Kano]

The benchmarks are really poor, when you are used to faster gfx cards (funnyly not even one faster card was added for comparision). And several games do not profit from Crossfire as you can see... It is a useless buy when only 50% or less games really get more speed and the rest are as slow as before. A good buy would increase speed of ANY game.

[duby229]

The only thing that I want to add to this conversation is that in the near future most AMD users will have an integrated video card on the motherboard. Even harcore enthusiasts and gamers. The integrated video card will become standard.

With this in mind it might be a good idea to use the integrated video card during low load scenarios, then switch to the discreet card when a higher load occurs. This will require driver support. Another possibility is to use the integrated gpu for general purpose code. This should already be possible with Brook+, nowe we just need to get enough idle gpu's into the market to convince programmers that it is worth there time to port there software.

[Kano]

Yes, thats another way. I think Nvidia implemented this already - but you have to manually switch between onboard + dedicated card. Switching needs 5s - did not try myself, just read about that in ct (german pc magazin). I have no info when that will be possible with Linux.

[zappa86]

This makes me feel bad for getting an Nforce 780a motherboard and a GF8800GTS G92 to go with my new phenom. I stuck in an old ATI card and the Linux drivers are much better then they used to be. My next comp will be all AMD/ATI.

[Kano]

This is only supported with a 9800 GTX as far as I know, the 8800 GTS 512 uses the same chip basically but the driver will not enable this feature.

[DCKing]

Hey guys, new to the forums. Posting because I'd like to have something cleared up:
Previously we shared that open-source UVD support may be unlikely for the Radeon R600 series due to trouble sharing UVD documentation without exposing the DRM (Digital Rights Management) coupled within this block. Future product generations may be of a more modular design, but there's potentially good news surrounding the open-source UVD on the RV770. Its UVD2 design isn't modular, but AMD's John Bridgman believes there may be a way to open up UVD2 without comprising their DRM obligations.It's nice to have UVD support from open source drivers, but this piece here seems to suggest to me that UVD is supported in the propietary drivers already?! Is the fglrx developing so fast that it supports hardware video decoding already? Is it coming soon? Or am I just seeing things?

I mean, if there's going to be UVD support, I'm buying parts for a MythTV box tomorrow :)

[WSmart]

I'd like to see quad LCD support. Let's see AMD make a platform that can handle 4096x3072 resolution.

[Yfrwlf]

"With ATI's official packaging, Tux will be prominently displayed on the packaging. This is to show the consumers that ATI graphics cards are supported under Linux. However, for the AIB partners designing their own product packaging, it's up to them whether to include this Linux symbol."

So has anyone found a pic of an ATI Radeon 4800 series box that shows Tux yet? I only was able to find AMD/ATI's own version on Frys.com, but it only shows you a single pic and you can't see much.

Perhaps when AMD finally gets their Linux drivers on par with the Windows ones, you'll finally start seeing Tux or Linux mentioned on all boxes, but so far I'm just trying to find it mentioned on any of them. The reason being that if you advertise a card as having features X, Y, and Z, and say that you either require Linux or Windows, but then you don't have all those features on Linux, that'd definitely be considered false advertising IMO. It's understandable they don't want to be sued. Having said that, it's somewhat surprising that even the ATI packaging would show Tux.

[he_the_great]

The reason being that if you advertise a card as having features X, Y, and Z, and say that you either require Linux or Windows, but then you don't have all those features on Linux, that'd definitely be considered false advertising IMO.

Companies are give some leeway on what constitutes false advertising, and on that note it really wouldn't be, the card supports what is listed on the box. You may not get it in Linux but the card has the features. And really they could add that, "Some features unavailable for Linux."

[linzerd]

AN evolutionary leap in linux support?? The third party vendors won't do it... As simple as that! I will consider an evolutionary leap on support when fglrx supports VideoOverlay playback without image "jumping" on my Xpress 200 IGP... Get simple things stable men! And then think in introducing new features...

[Yfrwlf]

Companies are give some leeway on what constitutes false advertising, and on that note it really wouldn't be, the card supports what is listed on the box. You may not get it in Linux but the card has the features. And really they could add that, "Some features unavailable for Linux."

True, they could state that to make things more clear. I'm still waiting for any box that actually shows Tux on it though. For us existing Linux users, the best news is if driver support is finally put on par with the Windows drivers as well as AMD's improved openness. For new or uninformed Linux users though, and for advertising purposes, putting Tux on the box was a big deal, so I'm sorry to see it not pan out so far.

[he_the_great]

Yeah, I want to see one too. I should buy the card from ATi and then sell the box on ebay.

[MetalheadGautham]

CrossFire X will be the leading MultiGPU technology. This is because CrossFire X is capable of running any CrossFire X-compatible cards. If you for example have got a RV670 for some time now, and want to have some more performance, you can just buy a new RV770 and combine those two cards which are of different generations. You could also use a RV670, a RV770Pro and a RV770XT. This is a confirmed feature for Windows and due to using the same codebase it should also work fine with Linx.
Wow! thats indeed amazing.
But what remains to be seen is WHEN they will implement these features. Take a look at the AMD 780G for example. The Hybrid CrossFire mode looks very attractive but at the same time, its still not available on Linux. Before they finish talking about future plans for linux, AMD CPU users would already have purchased nVidia GeForce 8200 or 8300 based motherboards...

[Dragonlord]

Crossfire is nice on the paper but from a game developers point of view it's not that blistering. I do not see too much future for those multi-graphic cards except misusing one for physics while the other renders... which is though like having a dedicated physics card which helps more.

[mtippett]

Crossfire is nice on the paper but from a game developers point of view it's not that blistering. I do not see too much future for those multi-graphic cards except misusing one for physics while the other renders... which is though like having a dedicated physics card which helps more.

Could you expand on that?

If the game is GPU limited, then you usually get benefits by using Cossfire (either SW or HW). One problem is that modern high end systems struggle to make the GPU the choke point.

High resolution, high eyecandy, is where the HW becomes limiting, and usually that is where crossfire works best.

(In reference to a previous comment, CrossfireX is not across family, but allows sibling products work together http://game.amd.com/us-en/content/images/crossfirex/CF_combo_chart_July08.jpg

Regards,

Matthew

[Dragonlord]

As mentioned by you, the pure pixel pusher strength of the card is usually not limiting ( if your shader is complex you either modify it or try to reduce the number of pixels hit by it ). Physics and occlusion culling as well as all the rest of the engine takes a lot of time. Also while fill rate can be augmented like this switches ( render targets [ a lot in DefRen setups ], textures, states ) stay constant. That said I can see it for higher resolutions where pixel count explodes.

[Almindor]

Sorry but no. They are not even half of the way towards where nvidia is (and even that is a rather lame target).

Current fglrx drivers suck, bigtime. Not just performance wise (3d is not everything, for example gtk text drawing is 300% faster on the reverse engineered open source driver {r500 class}) but also stability (latest 8.7 catalyst for example crashes ETQW, all before 8.7 result in bad shaders in Savage 2 for a change).

The thing is just lame. I wonder how big the dev "team" is but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 1 man job.

[Yfrwlf]

The thing is just lame. I wonder how big the dev "team" is but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 1 man job.

Lame now, but hopefully these promises from AMD will yield something comparable and eventually surpassing to nVidia, but that remains to be seen. ^^

AMD has done pretty well performance-wise though with these latest cards. I'm anxious to see more benchmarks though. I don't know if I could really decide between AMD and nVidia right now if I had to as far as just performance, stability, and features, but you may be right in that nVidia is still above AMD with that.

The only thing I can say for sure is that AMD is definitely working on closing that gap, and it's showing, so I hope they keep up the good work.

[Almindor]

Lame now, but hopefully these promises from AMD will yield something comparable and eventually surpassing to nVidia, but that remains to be seen. ^^

AMD has done pretty well performance-wise though with these latest cards. I'm anxious to see more benchmarks though. I don't know if I could really decide between AMD and nVidia right now if I had to as far as just performance, stability, and features, but you may be right in that nVidia is still above AMD with that.

The only thing I can say for sure is that AMD is definitely working on closing that gap, and it's showing, so I hope they keep up the good work.


I'd be optimist too, I mean their release pace, packaging and general outlook looks great now, but until they get their act together and stop adding regressions each release, it's all just a music of distant future for me.

Overall yes, it's getting better, but I could live without the constant bugs and "I wonder what will break this time" feeling whenever I update their driver.

[he_the_great]

Well, I'm going to continue to support them in their efforts. For the most part, the drivers work for me. With the fix of the Screensaver resume, I'm now left with flickering video in Fusion, and HL2 crashing (and that might not even be ATi)

[Yfrwlf]

Well, I'm going to continue to support them in their efforts. For the most part, the drivers work for me. With the fix of the Screensaver resume, I'm now left with flickering video in Fusion, and HL2 crashing (and that might not even be ATi)

The open source ATI driver with Fusion has been really nice at least...

It'd be nice if driver installation was easier so you could move to different versions easier if drivers were more easily pluggable, and didn't break after each kernel update. Seriously, the Linux kernel needs to be much more modular, that's just annoying for everyone. Would also be nice to see a way to upgrade it without rebooting so you could finally say Linux is completely reboot-proof. Like, if it was modular enough, then the running pieces and control systems could be hotswapped over to the new kernel, and after it was finished transferring, the old one could shut down, would be awesome. Anything is possible with software. ^^

[bridgman]

<snip> for example gtk text drawing is 300% faster on the reverse engineered open source driver {r500 class}<snip>.

I think the question was ATI vs NVidia, not ATI vs ATI. We expect that the open source drivers will pick up new framework features (in this case EXA acceleration making use of glyph cache improvements in X server) before fglrx. Also note that the r5xx work is not reverse engineered -- we have display, 2d and 3d documentation packages out for 5xx and that acceleration code was written by Alex (working for AMD) who has full access to our internal HW info as well.

You can't say we suck relative to NVidia because our open source driver does something faster than our closed source driver :D

[Dragonlord]

Well... you mostly suck currently at delivering a stable driver... and that's said without any intend to insult but stating the status quo.

[Yfrwlf]

Well... you mostly suck currently at delivering a stable driver... and that's said without any intend to insult but stating the status quo.

Haven't had any probs here in a long while, but I haven't used any of the new cards yet, waiting for a good gaming need. I wonder how the open nvidia drivers vs. the open ati drivers perform. I do know nVidia's closed drivers are pretty solid though at least.

[duby229]

Haven't had any probs here in a long while, but I haven't used any of the new cards yet, waiting for a good gaming need. I wonder how the open nvidia drivers vs. the open ati drivers perform. I do know nVidia's closed drivers are pretty solid though at least.

nVidia's open drivers are a total joke. They have a very poorly written 2d stack, no video , no 3d.... Even the mode setting code was written in a way that it cant really be ported to anything else.... That whole driver was written specifically so that it couldnt be improved on.

Then there is Nouvou(sp) that is doing great under the curcumstances, but wont work for most people for most needs. Some folks may be able to get it to work properly for there needs ,but its just so far from completion that it isnt ready yet..

[Svartalf]

You can't say we suck relative to NVidia because our open source driver does something faster than our closed source driver :D

No, and I wouldn't. Things have improved both with fglrx and with the FOSS driver that I'm evaluating acquiring a couple of AMD parts- which is about 6-12 months sooner than I thought that was going to happen... ;)

[Dragonlord]

Haven't had any probs here in a long while, but I haven't used any of the new cards yet, waiting for a good gaming need. I wonder how the open nvidia drivers vs. the open ati drivers perform. I do know nVidia's closed drivers are pretty solid though at least.
I would not consider ever-crashing drivers solid. Granted I went for the big cake with the 4870 but as a gamedev this is what you do :P . That said I had quite some unpleasant clashes with fglrx in the past... I mean... "FBO + Stencil = Crash" or "glReadPixels + FBO = Crash" are just two of the things I had to struggle with. That said nVidia has it's own quirks ( like FBO-Render-Target-limitation idiocy, notoriously ignorance to glPolygonOffset or GLSL compilation tombola ). But at last their drivers do not crash all the time except if you choke something down OGL which has not been proper ( in which case though it has been your fault :D ).

[Yfrwlf]

nVidia's open drivers are a total joke. They have a very poorly written 2d stack, no video , no 3d.... Even the mode setting code was written in a way that it cant really be ported to anything else.... That whole driver was written specifically so that it couldnt be improved on.

Then there is Nouvou(sp) that is doing great under the curcumstances, but wont work for most people for most needs. Some folks may be able to get it to work properly for there needs ,but its just so far from completion that it isnt ready yet..

Yeah I have hopes for Nouveau too but at the same time I wanna say screw it to nVidia for not even wanting to be nice to open source, so it just depends on how well AMD follows through and how their drivers and performance are in a few months compared to nVidia.

On another note I'm definitely opposing any of the lock the motherboard to the gfx card crap though, I'm angry enough as it is with Intel and AMD not using standard CPU socket types, so whoever tries to dig even deeper into making the whole system locked in will lose my business and support. Standards means more options and competition for consumers.

[Yfrwlf]

I would not consider ever-crashing drivers solid. Granted I went for the big cake with the 4870 but as a gamedev this is what you do :P . That said I had quite some unpleasant clashes with fglrx in the past... I mean... "FBO + Stencil = Crash" or "glReadPixels + FBO = Crash" are just two of the things I had to struggle with. That said nVidia has it's own quirks ( like FBO-Render-Target-limitation idiocy, notoriously ignorance to glPolygonOffset or GLSL compilation tombola ). But at last their drivers do not crash all the time except if you choke something down OGL which has not been proper ( in which case though it has been your fault :D ).

I'm excited to see the push toward Gallium3D, I hope it makes driver development much easier and solves a lot of the Linux gfx driver bugginess. Any way, once some of the newer and bigger Linux games come out, I'll be excited to see the current state between nVidia and ATI on Linux to plan my upgrade, and I will give AMD some points for their open source friendliness.

[Dragonlord]

What goes for features if a game engine is not totally dick headed it should not make too much of a difference. There are some differences from the game developers point of view ( which are though due to lousy definitions in opengl leaving room for too much interpretation ) but for the end user there is not much difference. Speed wise I would say the two are not too much different what goes for the drivers just the level of troubles you have is different ( ATI = Linux troubles, nVidia = Windows troubles ) but this can ( and hopefully WILL ) change.

[Yfrwlf]

What goes for features if a game engine is not totally dick headed it should not make too much of a difference. There are some differences from the game developers point of view ( which are though due to lousy definitions in opengl leaving room for too much interpretation ) but for the end user there is not much difference. Speed wise I would say the two are not too much different what goes for the drivers just the level of troubles you have is different ( ATI = Linux troubles, nVidia = Windows troubles ) but this can ( and hopefully WILL ) change.

Hell yeah it will change, the rest of 2008 should bring good changes to Linux, we shall see. =^_^=

[pamindic]

Hell yeah it will change, the rest of 2008 should bring good changes to Linux, we shall see. =^_^=


.. but the reality is something quite different.

I don't know how Phoronix are supposed to have gotten the ATI HD4850 card to play with Linux, but after buying the Gigabyte card in June on the strength of this article and their enthusiastic 4850 review, its still in the ant-static bag waiting for a driver that will work it under Ubuntu. That makes around the 6th ATI card that has given me eye-watering grief over the years. AMD's much reported Linux commitment, as far as I can tell, is pure hype. And graphics card problems remain the biggest single barrier to the adoption of Linux on the desktop.

[BlackStar]

.. but the reality is something quite different.

I don't know how Phoronix are supposed to have gotten the ATI HD4850 card to play with Linux, but after buying the Gigabyte card in June on the strength of this article and their enthusiastic 4850 review, its still in the ant-static bag waiting for a driver that will work it under Ubuntu. That makes around the 6th ATI card that has given me eye-watering grief over the years. AMD's much reported Linux commitment, as far as I can tell, is pure hype. And graphics card problems remain the biggest single barrier to the adoption of Linux on the desktop.

Yesterday, I upgraded from an MSI X1950 to a Connect3d 4850. Ubuntu Intrepid with the closed drivers: old card out, new card in and it just works, compiz and all. That's better than vista where drivers had to be reinstalled.

I'm sorry, but you are simply spreading FUD here.

[cruiseoveride]

No he is not.

You are probably running an old version of Linux. And thus the drivers even installed in the first place. Give it a try on any new Distro and see if it works for you

We all know Phoronix is biased towards ATi, so don't take the "enthusiasm" seriously.

[Melcar]

No he is not.

You are probably running an old version of Linux. And thus the drivers even installed in the first place. Give it a try on any new Distro and see if it works for you

We all know Phoronix is biased towards ATi, so don't take the "enthusiasm" seriously.


He said he's using Intrepid. Definitely not an old distro.

[cruiseoveride]

And intrepid is not using the official drivers.

They had to hack it to get it to work.

So the point still stands, "ATi Drivers are absolute bullshit"

[BlackStar]

No he is not.

You are probably running an old version of Linux. And thus the drivers even installed in the first place. Give it a try on any new Distro and see if it works for you

Please re-read my post. As the commenter above points out, I'm running Intrepid.

We all know Phoronix is biased towards ATi, so don't take the "enthusiasm" seriously.

It's pretty obvious that phoronix is ati-biased, but that doesn't make spreading FUD right.

Ati support on linux has been ridiculously bad in the past - I've experienced that first hand. But right now, the open drivers work great for R500- (if you don't mind GL1.3) and the blob has become good enough for general use.

Are things perfect? Not by a long shot: power draw is still high, pci-e to agp bridges still fail to function, suspend can still be unreliable. Since last October, however, the drivers have been progressively getting better, and there's no sign of stopping (the 8.11 betas in Intrepid have brought some massive speed increases).

I don't expect things to become perfect. Hardware and software is just moving too fast right now for that. Even nvidia and intel, both with historically better linux support, have trouble keeping up. My personal wish is for feature parity on 3d drivers at some point in 2009, but it's a fact of life that no software can ever be perfect.

And intrepid is not using the official drivers.

They had to hack it to get it to work.

So the point still stands, "ATi Drivers are absolute bullshit"

AFAIK, ubuntu shipped with 8.11 betas - the final version expect later this month. The did that in hardy with firefox 3 betas if you recall - big deal.

If you don't have anything constructive too add, why don't you refrain from posting?

[pamindic]

I'm sorry, but you are simply spreading FUD here.

I object to that. I'm not spreading anything - I'm recounting my experience, and I can't get the 4850 to operate with a 1600x1280 monitor. And my 4 years of grief with ATI are sadly not propaganda but a reality. I've no axe to grind.

(correction - I mean 1680x1050)

[BlackStar]

I object to that. I'm not spreading anything - I'm recounting my experience, and I can't get the 4850 to operate with a 1600x1280 monitor. And my 4 years of grief with ATI are sadly not propaganda but a reality. I've no axe to grind.

Our experience is very different, it seems (only 2.5 years of grief here :D)

Maybe a custom modeline can take care of the monitor issue? I have to do that to get my preferred resolution (1400x1050@85). Yours does seem kinda strange (1600x1280) - don't think that's supported out of the box.

[Yfrwlf]

I object to that. I'm not spreading anything - I'm recounting my experience, and I can't get the 4850 to operate with a 1600x1280 monitor. And my 4 years of grief with ATI are sadly not propaganda but a reality. I've no axe to grind.

(correction - I mean 1680x1050)

Not horribly surprised, I've spoken to others who have sort of "odd" monitors that completely fail to display the proper resolutions and such on, even with the newest drivers that come with the newest kernels. All I can recommend is that

a) try a completely bleeding-edge kernel/x.org to see if it correctly deals with it, like Ubuntu 9.04 alpha or something

b) you try both the ati, radeonhd, and fglrx drivers to see if you can get the monitor working correctly with any of them. For the fglrx try using the Catalyst control center too, since it's still not completely compatible with xrandr so using the Gnome resolution thingy for it might not be as good.

c) try modelines in xorg.conf like it was suggested, or search around on the net for Linux compatibility with that particular monitor and such

d) use a different monitor or graphics card :(

It's stupid that the monitor being properly detected is tied into the graphics card and drivers. You'd think if xorg/kernel could see the monitor correctly, it shouldn't matter what graphics card or driver you're using as far as displaying the same resolution and such as long as the driver is capable of displaying it. If X.org/kernel says oh yeah, that's this model monitor, you can do this max resolution and Hz and such, so output that type of signal if you can, that the driver/card should just shut up and do it if capable, but I guess that's not how things work? >.<

[bridgman]

Pamindic, you're using Ubuntu 8.10, right ? If so, can you pastebin the logs from the fglrx driver that shipped with the distro ? Please use the restricted driver manager to enable fglrx, not a separate install.