LGP Introduces Linux Game Copy Protection

[phoronix]

Phoronix: LGP Introduces Linux Game Copy Protection

For seven years Linux Game Publishing has been selling their Linux-ported games with no form of copy protection on their CD/DVDs, but beginning with their forthcoming port of Sacred: Gold that will be changed. Linux Game Publishing has developed their own Internet-based game copy protection system for Linux, and in this article we have more details on this scheme as well as their motives behind this work.

http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=12526

[AHSauge]

Can't say I blame them. This might well be something that needs to be done in order to keep surviving. Having 3-4 times more pirates then paying customers is not good at all, and if this helps LGP then so be it. I'm not going to care as long as this isn't any inconvenience for me as a customer.

[Kano]

Online protection is the only way to go, but for single player games I doubt that they will be really successful. Multiplayer games can be better protected this way. Don't know if that game is SP or MP or both. I would not call that media protection as you can easyly copy those of course. The Internet requirement is a bit bad and I guess if the game is really successfull there will be workarounds.

[Aradreth]

I'd really rather not have copy protection on my games...

As for people pirating it how stupid are some people? I mean do they not want linux gaming to die or what? Some people amaze me.

[Svartalf]

I'd really rather not have copy protection on my games...

Blame the freeloaders... Not my call, it's Michael Simms' one- and the problem that many working for or consulting for LGP have seen has precipitated the response.


As for people pirating it how stupid are some people? I mean do they not want linux gaming to die or what? Some people amaze me.

It's the same sort of thinking that spawns the stuff we're discussing in this (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10969) recent thread and in the thread (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9641) you'd linked to in that other thread.

They think they're entitled to something because they can't afford it or because they bought the Windows version of something.

I was afraid that we'd see Mr. Simms do this eventually. We've had conversations online about the subject and the concerns he expresses in the article really do seem to be the thinking about it. There really IS a problem- and while I've tried to not draw attention to it, it's one more reason why we have a hell of a time making titles happen for Linux. I can only hope that it works out decently enough that we can start getting slightly better deals in the door.

[TechMage89]

I think ultimately, copy-protection has to use some measure of good-faith, i.e. that if someone likes a product, they'll pay for it because they want to reward the creator and enable them to continue to make good products. I think really that the primary purpose of copy protection is to alert people to the fact that piracy is wrong and illegal. Ultimately we have to appeal to people's moral standards, or we'll end up with the digital equivalent of a police state to deal with crime.

Any society that hopes to survive has to have some moral/ethical standards that an overwhelming majority agree to uphold, and the digital world is no different. Support the creators! Purchase products legally! If people won't agree that that's a good idea, then no amount of copy protection will stop piracy.

[Chewi]

That's funny, I was thinking about this in the shower earlier today, after hearing that piracy is what killed Loki. I'm not sure how true that is because I've also heard other stories about how Loki died. Nevertheless, I find it both surprising and saddening just how much piracy goes on amongst Linux users. It would normally be hard to speculate but what Michael Simms said really paints the picture quite clearly. I'm not sure how effective this will be, especially since many Linux users are perfectly capable of applying a crack. No doubt someone out there would be willing and able to make one. Still, I support the move for what it's worth.

[deanjo]

Reasons why people pirate linux games:

1) lack of availability through legal means, a large amount of the gaming crowd simply do not have the means to order product online. Many of them are kids with no creditcard.

2)price. I know the justifications for the price but reality is people can't see value in spending $40-$60 for a game that's sitting in a bargin bin for $2-5

3) being burned with the loki fiasco

I'm sure sales would be a lot better if the availability of the product improved and prices were within what people consider an appropriate price.

[Svartalf]

That's funny, I was thinking about this in the shower earlier today, after hearing that piracy is what killed Loki.


Heh... Piracy was a contributor, but it wasn't the sole cause or the real reason. All one needs to do is look at Scott Draeker did (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=32977&postcount=61) on things like Q3:A to see that it wasn't the sole reason. Bad management, taking on too much too fast, piracy, it all contributed to Loki's demise, with the poor decisions later on in the game when things started not working right that was what started nailing nails in that coffin.


Nevertheless, I find it both surprising and saddening just how much piracy goes on amongst Linux users.


I'm not sure if it's QUITE as bad as Michael Simms painted it, but it is fairly close to the truth, I fear. I certainly know the mentality is very much present, based on the discussions (Flame-fights??) I've had to be party to in recent times over some of the current planned catalog.

"It's old..."
"It's too expensive..."
"It tanked on Windows..."

Those sorts of things tend to lead people to feel like they're entitled to a five finger discount on something- especially if they've got the Windows version, bought in some bargain bin or even when it was freshly published.


It would normally be hard to speculate but what Michael Simms said really paints the picture quite clearly. I'm not sure how effective this will be, especially since many Linux users are perfectly capable of applying a crack. No doubt someone out there would be willing and able to make one. Still, I support the move for what it's worth.

Sure it'll get cracked. Just like Steam, etc. have.

It makes it at least slightly easier to sell a porting prospect to the publisher and studio for these nice titles people keep complaining that LGP, Runesoft, etc. don't seem to be doing- because they also have concerns about us all being a batch of freeloading *ssholes because we didn't pay for our OS, etc. And with sales figures in the past backing that argument up, it makes it that much harder to get the deals- and when someone gives one out, they have much more expensive terms, which raises the price just that much further.

[Aradreth]

Sure it'll get cracked. Just like Steam, etc. have.
I don't think many people will bother cracking LGP games as it wont give them as big an ego boost as cracking something from EA or one of the other big hitters. Sure it'll be cracked eventually, everything is, but I think pirates might have to wait a while... at least I hope they will.

[Svartalf]

1) lack of availability through legal means, a large amount of the gaming crowd simply do not have the means to order product online. Many of them are kids with no creditcard.


Not a good excuse, really. I know that's the reasoning- but the reality is, the people pirating this way are perpetuating the problem. This is one of the OTHER reasons we have a hell of a time getting deals, deanjo.


2)price. I know the justifications for the price but reality is people can't see value in spending $40-$60 for a game that's sitting in a bargin bin for $2-5


We've went over this in other threads. ;) And while I agree the price as a problem and their reasoning for lifting infringed copies, they're still making the problem worse. The "piracy" angle, I've tried to diminish it because it's a touchy subject in this space; and we seem to have a real problem. It's got to stop if we want to see better sooner. I don't care how- educate the people that they're contributing to the very problem they're "fixing" by pirating the stuff.


3) being burned with the loki fiasco


Excuse me... How did getting burned with a single company excuse this sort of conduct? And, I honestly and SERIOUSLY doubt that anyone that was using Linux in the days of Loki's existence would be pirating anything- they know PRECISELY what's at stake in most cases, and wouldn't be ripping people off. The people doing the pirating seem to be newcomers to the Linux community and don't get that this isn't just a "free" (as in no cost...) alternative to Windows.


I'm sure sales would be a lot better if the availability of the product improved and prices were within what people consider an appropriate price.


I'm sure that the availability of the product would improve and the prices would come down if we could justify selling 10k units or more like the Windows crowd gets. You're not going to SEE that with the piracy going on. This isn't a charity- and someone taking something they didn't pay for doesn't help get better things for you.

[Redeeman]

this seems to be really stupid, if i have to remember keys for each game it may not be worth the trouble.

Also, if one needs to be online to play non-internet games, its just too far.

Under these conditions, i'd probably only buy the game if a crack is available.

[Svartalf]

this seems to be really stupid, if i have to remember keys for each game it may not be worth the trouble.


I don't wholly agree with his choice- but you have to do that with Windows titles, don't you? Are those games not worth the trouble?


Also, if one needs to be online to play non-internet games, its just too far.


Unless you install in the right way, Steam limits you in much the same manner- you have to be online to play single player. What is the difference there?


Under these conditions, i'd probably only buy the game if a crack is available.


Be careful making remarks like that. ;)

[curaga]

Unless you install in the right way, Steam limits you in much the same manner- you have to be online to play single player. What is the difference there?
Not playing games from Steam. Simple.

[[Knuckles]]

I hate stupid copy-protection checks as much as the next guy, but I fully understand this decision.

Linux needs the gaming mindshare. Getting rid of copy protection of games will (maybe) be a later battle (just like DRM'd music -- just now some sites are coming to their senses and selling no-drm'd music, maybe in some years we'll have that for games?).

Anyways, I always thought that valve for example had it very right with half-life. How many people I knew that purchased half-life to play counter-strike because working around the protections was impossible (er... afaik, =D), and the game was selling for about 15€, so why all the trouble, just buy the game.

So, good luck!

[Svartalf]

Not playing games from Steam. Simple.

Heh... No problem. Believe me, I understand and appreciate the position. It's much like the one I've about Linux titles in general (See the other thread's response to you...)- unfortunately, others have taken this out of our hands, and I don't mean the people doing the protection, either.

Blame the people infringing the LGP titles and blame the studios/publishers of the Windows stuff (because that's been a criteria in some cases...).

[miles]

It's only my personal opinion, but I think they'd get even better response from the gamers community if they did what some game companies do, that is promise to release a no-key (or no de or whatever) patch after a while (after the game stops selling well, after 1 or 2 years, or even after they stop selling it).

Egosoft do that for their games, and since LGP is porting X3 at the moment, it could make sense. They could even re-release platinium editions without any protection (but surely they don't sell that much copies ;) ).

Gamers would feel far more comfortable knowing they'd be allowed to play hassle-free the game they bought after a certain period has elapsed, and that shouldn't have any effect about piracy.

The ones that are on a crusade could of course wait for the protection removal tool to be released before they buy the game, instead of not buying anything at all (and not downloading it, and not playing it, which doesn't bring money to the publisher's either - I know I stopped buying Windows games AND playing them altogether, and sadly I'm not really attracted by what LGP has to offer at the moment, but that's not entirely their fault. Still no good racing games for Linux ;) ).

[hoho]

So it boils down to buy the game, and then get a crack for the protection shit and be not bothered by it. And everybody is happy :)

[mercy]

Frankly speaking I think an authentication procedure that requires an open internet connection sucks - especially for a single player game and basically for any game that does not require an internet connection for playing purposes. What if I wish to play the game on my notebook while travelling? I really do not intend to get myself a mobile broadband card like UMTS since it costs a fortune (at least in Germany it does). An no, I will not use my mobile phone via GPRS to acitvate a game each time I like to play a computer game away from home.

If I had planned to buy the game - which I luckily did not intend to - I would change my mind right now. And I will definitely not buy any future games published by LPG if this systems prevails.


My 5 cents on this topic... :cool:

[stan.distortion]

Just joined the forums, and not just to post to this thread :) Only started checking Phoronix recently, well done on a great site.
deanjo, I agree 100% with your earlier post. The distribution network just isn't there for linux games and a bargin bin MS version versus top whack for a native linux version is a real killer.
As for the protection, it has to be there. P2P is huge and will only get bigger in the near future, big games companies are hurt badly by copying so small ones stand no chance. Also, LGP are porting other companies work so they probably have no choice for many games.
If the protection is done in an unobtrusive and (preferably) one-time basis then it really isn't an issue. On the other hand, if I ever have issues with the copy protect after the initial install then I will avoid that developer in the future.
The net based verification is all well and good, especially for net focused games, but there are still a lot of folks with little or no internet. I'm from Ireland and only have 56k pay per minute available in my area. A friend bought a 3000 euro gaming PC in Jan and spends around 800 euro a year on games, last year he returned a little over 200 euro's worth of games because an internet connection was needed for copy protection. Not a huge number but a very real one, 2 other games had a phone registration option and he was happy with that.
And as for games that stick 6 gigs of data on the hard drive and still expect the DVD to be in the drive, shooting is to good for them...
LGP, please don't spoil this one and please please try and get shops distributing your goods (mainly GAME here). I have been waiting to pick up X3. I tried the demo of X2 and had a few issues with it but if I could have called into a shop, handed over some money and gone home with it I would have done so happily.
Sorry for the long post,
cheers,
Stan.
EDIT please make it work with KDE's wallet and similar pasword managers.
cheers

[miles]

So it boils down to buy the game, and then get a crack for the protection shit and be not bothered by it. And everybody is happy :)

I'm not sure there'll be people low enough to write a crack for that, but OTOH I've always assumed nobody was low enough to pirate games for Linux. I always assumed LGP's problems where more about obtaining the rights to port decent games, and I really can't imagine who in their sane mind would pirate a game like Gorky 17, Majesty Gold, NingPo MahJong, Creatures Internet Edition, Hyperspace Delivery Boy or Candy Cruncher. As for games like Postal 2, I'd assume like game like public, don't complain if nobody wants to buy a game out of you afterwards.

If you don't have the money, just play the demo of ETQW over and over (or any other game demo), play open source games, or just learn to play board games (play Go online and any RTS is going to sound really boring).

[DeepDayze]

this seems to be really stupid, if i have to remember keys for each game it may not be worth the trouble.

Also, if one needs to be online to play non-internet games, its just too far.

Under these conditions, i'd probably only buy the game if a crack is available.

Why not a system where you register the game key online and get a special license file by email, that you then load into the game using a menu option such as "Load License File" then the software will encrypt the license info into the game. Such game key is encrypted into the license

[M1AU]

Reasons why people pirate linux games:

1) lack of availability through legal means, a large amount of the gaming crowd simply do not have the means to order product online. Many of them are kids with no creditcard.

2)price. I know the justifications for the price but reality is people can't see value in spending $40-$60 for a game that's sitting in a bargin bin for $2-5

3) being burned with the loki fiasco

I'm sure sales would be a lot better if the availability of the product improved and prices were within what people consider an appropriate price.


I see especially #1 and #2 as valid points.
A few years back than on Windows I have to say I was most likely the same. Often there where really good games out there which can't be found on local stores, but also I simply can't buy them because of the lack of an creditcard (and no, not even my parents had one at that time).
Today I'm respecting software licenses and so when I can't or won't afford some pieces of software, I simply don't use it.

Software licenses where one reason why I switched to a linux Desktop after all. I'm not going to use Microsofts Windows or Apples MacOSX again, simply because I will not buy there products and secondly because I don't agree with there terms.

Nevertheless, I personally think software pirating is bad and so I can't blame LGP for introducing such a mechanism.
At least as what I can see it's basically a CD-key + internet connection verification.
As long as it isn't something like that Starforce bullcrap I can live with that.

[mcgreg]

Well, I didnt buy many games from LPG yet.
I bought Civ - Call to Power, Alpha Centauri, Heroes of might and Magic 3 (from Loki) and Majesty as the only LPG game.
I didn't buy any more since lgp didnt make/port any game yet I would really like, so is sacred. I tested the win-demo some times ago and honestly even 10 euro would be too much for the game, even if the game has been rated quite well.

But to come to my point, even if I liked it, I wouldn't buy it due to this copy protection. I am generally against copy protection and I seriously doubt they will help anyone to sell more copies of a game.

The availability problem... it would be nice to if one could buy those games directly from amazon, but I guess thats just a dream ;)

[Max Spain]

I'm not sure there'll be people low enough to write a crack for that, but OTOH I've always assumed nobody was low enough to pirate games for Linux. I always assumed LGP's problems where more about obtaining the rights to port decent games...

Same here. I was really surprised to see those piracy numbers even with their availability problems. Does anybody even know where to buy LGP's games???

As far as the copy protection goes, I would guess that this will be LGP's lowest selling game ever :( I could live with a one-time activation for a sp game, but doing it every time would not work for me. They should look at what happened in the Winblows world with the proposed DRM for Mass Effect and Spore.

On a lighter note, has anybody else noticed the ads on Phoronix for ATI Crossfire products. I don't think the people who bought those ads realise what kind of people visit this website :D

[Redeeman]

Svartalf:

I don't wholly agree with his choice- but you have to do that with Windows titles, don't you? Are those games not worth the trouble?

not really in most cases..


Unless you install in the right way, Steam limits you in much the same manner- you have to be online to play single player. What is the difference there?

i didnt say there was a difference, or that i accept or approve of the "Steam" situation.


Be careful making remarks like that.

why? i didnt say i would pirate the game otherwise - and as far as cracking goes, i do not believe its illegal in my country to apply a crack to be able to use a thing..

[Pickup]

I doubt people who simply can't pirate LGP games any more will buy them. Yes, maybe somebody will, but a few ones. LGP will increase their sales by a mere... let's say, 5-10%. very far from the 400% we (they) may imagine 4 pirate copies every single one.
All the others, if they can't pirate any more, will play the demo only, or turn away from LGP and look for FOSS games, or seek (and hope) for a crack. And there is a chance many honest genuine-buying gamers will feel betrayed and give up buying commercial games and turn to FOSS (many linux users respect intellectual property, but ask IP to respect them - and copy protections are often seen as untrustful measures)

I think they should make the CP removable after 2-3, max 5 years. And push linux games on store shelves.

[Svartalf]

And push linux games on store shelves.

Heh... How, pray tell, do you propose doing this?

Most stores won't go with the volumes that we're talking about here. Windows stuff gets the time of day because you're talking anywhere from 10k blocks to 250k blocks of merchandise, which is worth the time and risk from the retailer.

With the paltry numbers you have right now buying (and it's not all availability that's the cause- with the attitudes I've seen in this thread and others in just today alone, I can tell precisely where the low numbers comes from...) the stuff that IS offered, you will NEVER have people signing up to allow Linux versions, let alone having retailers sign up to allow it floor space.

[Naib]

should of teamed up with VALVE ;)
make a linux port of STEAM more real/confirmed

but yer copy-protection is needed - just not as draconian as EA are going

[miles]

As for selling their games at retail, I don't think it's going to be possible with the actual sales of LGP's games. Just look at X3 preorders and it's around the 200 mark, _including_ sales to resellers. Just providing a box per shop would require producing more boxes than you know you'll ever sell.

Amazon, on the other hand, would be easy since one can set an amazon market place shop and still see its product available in all amazon searches. No need to set aside some copies that might not be sold, any LGP partners could do that, they ship the games from their own shop. Don't know why it hasn't been done yet, since some amazon market place shops are really small (some looks like one-man-in-his-garage businesses).

If it's a credit card problem, LGP resellers allow you to pay by cheques, so I don't see where the problem is. In fact, almost all internet shops allow you to pay by cheques, so I fail to see why not having a credit card would be an excuse for piracy.

[stan.distortion]

@Svartalf
Not sure about the 'never allow it floor space' bit, ATI and Nvidia seem to be about to enter a battle to prove who loves linux more and ATI is sticking tux on the box for the first time. Add to that the pole on the ETQW forum that had windows well and truly pushed into second place (linux 63% if my memory is good today) and the stores may start climbing over each other to tell us how much they love linux within a few years.
For the kind of money LGP is looking for it would be worth there while to offer a commission to stores for taking orders. Fair enough, the company behind the stores may be counting the sales in thousands but there is plenty of rubbish in the stores themselves that would be lucky to sell a single copy. At some stage they will have a market viability test for linux games and if that works out were in there.
cheers

[Redeeman]

Heh... How, pray tell, do you propose doing this?

Most stores won't go with the volumes that we're talking about here. Windows stuff gets the time of day because you're talking anywhere from 10k blocks to 250k blocks of merchandise, which is worth the time and risk from the retailer.

With the paltry numbers you have right now buying (and it's not all availability that's the cause- with the attitudes I've seen in this thread and others in just today alone, I can tell precisely where the low numbers comes from...) the stuff that IS offered, you will NEVER have people signing up to allow Linux versions, let alone having retailers sign up to allow it floor space.
You may think drm and copy protection and all sorts of weird shit is an "acceptable evil", but for some people, having told "yeah we think you are gonna break the law, like a common thief stealing candy from a child" is simply not acceptable, just because SOME choose to behave that way..

Just like EVERYONE arent put in prison because _SOME_ people are violent criminals.. Only difference here, is that with software, the developers have the "right" to do these actions, where in the real world, the police (well, excluding a few insane moron countries) does not.

[Xipeos]

I agree with Pickup.

I play video games without buying them for reasons already mentioned in this thread, and a copy/play protection will not make me more likely to buy a game. If no cracked version comes out, I will simply forget about it or get a different version, microsuffer and play it on the other OS for which I did not pay - and I'll likely be better off that way, since ATI's greatness, which I so blindly defended, prevents me from playing most of the linux games. Either way, LGP will still get nothing for their hard work, and the protection will look more like a nagging device than a useful customer-creating system.

I truly respect LGP, and I wish I could respect them financially as well, but the games they are pushing out are just ports of (mostly) old, average games - the only games from LGP that I like are Majesty and X2 (both of which I played without paying) and the upcoming X3. If LGP, or any other company, were to make original gems such as Hostile Waters, Deus Ex or Fallout for linux, I'd go through hell and battle satan to buy them. Ported (old and average) games are not financially attractive for the piracy-inclined user that also uses the lesser OS.

As a last note, I think LGP's status on various levels would greatly improve if they followed stardock's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Civilizations_II#License_terms) model (http://www.galciv2.com/). Everybody loves stardock because of their amazing customer support and dedication to their games and fans/customers. Everybody does not love LGP for the opposite of the same reasons.

End of Post

[deanjo]

Not a good excuse, really. I know that's the reasoning- but the reality is, the people pirating this way are perpetuating the problem. This is one of the OTHER reasons we have a hell of a time getting deals, deanjo.



We've went over this in other threads. ;) And while I agree the price as a problem and their reasoning for lifting infringed copies, they're still making the problem worse. The "piracy" angle, I've tried to diminish it because it's a touchy subject in this space; and we seem to have a real problem. It's got to stop if we want to see better sooner. I don't care how- educate the people that they're contributing to the very problem they're "fixing" by pirating the stuff.



Excuse me... How did getting burned with a single company excuse this sort of conduct? And, I honestly and SERIOUSLY doubt that anyone that was using Linux in the days of Loki's existence would be pirating anything- they know PRECISELY what's at stake in most cases, and wouldn't be ripping people off. The people doing the pirating seem to be newcomers to the Linux community and don't get that this isn't just a "free" (as in no cost...) alternative to Windows.



I'm sure that the availability of the product would improve and the prices would come down if we could justify selling 10k units or more like the Windows crowd gets. You're not going to SEE that with the piracy going on. This isn't a charity- and someone taking something they didn't pay for doesn't help get better things for you.

Svartalf, copy-protection has NEVER been successful in even thwarting piracy in the slightest. Adding copy-protection is an ass-backwards move. Pirates will be pirates and no matter what copy protection scheme you put on it, piracy will happen. All copy-protection does is annoy the hell out of honest people. The gaming industry has been trying for years to come up with a fool proof protection and guess what? It's usually cracked within before it even hits the store shelves.

Even when a game is purchased, gamers tend to apply cracks to the games that they legally have purchased, and this is perfectly 100% legal in most countries. People don't like having to insert their original, find easily lost keys, have their systems sending who knows what to a company that is saying already "We think your a thief, prove us wrong.".

If you think the piracy groups are going to forget about trying to crack a game just because it is on linux your dead wrong. Hell there was a crack for the Penny Arcade game online before it was officially released. Release groups crack propriatary linux printer drivers for crying out loud.

Copyprotection only accomplishes this,

Piss off honest people and gives the crackers entertainment for an hour.

[mcgreg]

Good post. I agree 100%.

Svartalf, copy-protection has NEVER been successful in even thwarting piracy in the slightest. Adding copy-protection is an ass-backwards move. Pirates will be pirates and no matter what copy protection scheme you put on it, piracy will happen. All copy-protection does is annoy the hell out of honest people. The gaming industry has been trying for years to come up with a fool proof protection and guess what? It's usually cracked within before it even hits the store shelves.

Even when a game is purchased, gamers tend to apply cracks to the games that they legally have purchased, and this is perfectly 100% legal in most countries. People don't like having to insert their original, find easily lost keys, have their systems sending who knows what to a company that is saying already "We think your a thief, prove us wrong.".

If you think the piracy groups are going to forget about trying to crack a game just because it is on linux your dead wrong. Hell there was a crack for the Penny Arcade game online before it was officially released. Release groups crack propriatary linux printer drivers for crying out loud.

Copyprotection only accomplishes this,

Piss off honest people and gives the crackers entertainment for an hour.

[Svartalf]

Svartalf, copy-protection has NEVER been successful in even thwarting piracy in the slightest. Adding copy-protection is an ass-backwards move. Pirates will be pirates and no matter what copy protection scheme you put on it, piracy will happen. All copy-protection does is annoy the hell out of honest people. The gaming industry has been trying for years to come up with a fool proof protection and guess what? It's usually cracked within before it even hits the store shelves.


I know this. You know this. You won't even have me argue the point (I was arguing this same discussion with Michael Simms back three years ago...)- I wholeheartedly agree with you.

The problem is, if you want to convince a publisher that it's going to "be okay" to do this, you either have to show them you don't have a piracy problem or sufficient numbers that it's less of a concern.

The biggest problem is not LGP. It's not even close.

How many people gave out reasons for pirating the stuff in just TODAY alone? How many people OPENLY ADMITTED that they didn't pay for it and played it all the same??

I don't agree with this at all- DRM of any kind is bad mojo. Honest.

Unfortunately, we, as a group, even on THIS forum, just mouthed off in a manner that would doom any desire, any plans for ANY title out of any of the mainline publishers, giving them all kinds of credence to insist upon DRM if it were to remotely be considered.

[muep]

I, too, want to express my disappointment in the introduction of a copy protection mechanism for LGP games.

I usually use free software, because it is the only kind of software that I can somewhat trust. It won't go away just because a company decides to stop supporting it, and I can often even change my operating system, and still keep using it. I can also be fairly sure that it won't try to do anything sneaky behind my back.

For games, I can accept proprietary software, since games hardly are part of an information infrastructure, like a word processor or a web browser would be. I could still do my school and work assingments, even if my favourite game stopped working. However, I find it a lot harder to trust closed source software. If the piece of software actively tries to monitor my use of it and reports it somewhere, the issue even worsens a magnitude or two.

I would like to support LGP by buying games from them. Sacred Gold is a game I have bought for Windows, but I could still at least consider buying it again. However, I can't really support LGP's current business model and their current way to handle copyright enforcement with a good conscience. Therefore I think my only option is to keep waiting.

Maybe I should just donate some money to some interesting free software game project, even though there is no guarantee that the money is actually put to a good use.

[Svartalf]

You may think drm and copy protection and all sorts of weird shit is an "acceptable evil", but for some people, having told "yeah we think you are gonna break the law, like a common thief stealing candy from a child" is simply not acceptable, just because SOME choose to behave that way..


Then change the game, my friend. *I* do not like the idea one bit. I don't think this is a good thing. Never have, to be honest about it.

However, it's the fruits of most everyone talking in this thread's labors- as much as others not present in the posting.

In this thread, there have been at least 2-3 hinted at acts of infringement. One poster OPENLY stated that he played without paying on not one but two different titles- ostensibly because they "weren't worth buying". Well, that's the excuse MOST of the Windows pirates have...

Because of this sort of thing, people watch and see this. The people that have the control of the rights to even get a shot at porting games.

Do you for a moment think they're going to think they're going to see any money whatsoever from the community when they read all of this stuff and all the stuff in the other areas on the subject of ported titles?

If you do, you're sadly mistaken.

Everyone keeps screeching change the business model, not realizing that the model's pretty much doomed because of all the people mouthing off here and elsewhere- or that there may not be one for us for many years to come because of this crap.

They keep laboring under the illusion that people can just snap their fingers and make it happen. Or, that they're these other people's customers and that they HAVE to do anything to make it run on this other OS that they don't support, nor have any current intentions on supporting.

If you don't agree with the DRM, just don't buy. Quickest way to send a message, really. Don't comment on playing without paying or buying and then breaking the DRM- either just contributes to the same crap you're claiming you're against. All you people are doing when you do this is fueling the fire. No different than the crap that RIAA and MPAA have been doing for some time now. And all the idiots kept doing is feeding the fire with flash naptha instead of just walking away. You're NOT entitled to anything.

Not games.
Not music.
Not movies.

Mouthing off like this isn't feedback that you want, really. If you don't like it, fix the problem. Don't pirate the stuff, just don't buy. Pirating means it's desired, but you're obtaining it without paying for it. It's not stealing, no, but it's a bit worse than just not doing anything with regards to it. It sends a message that it's sought after, but nobody's willing to spend money on it. Heh... And what have I been trying to tell people we have as an image?

If you're not pirating, and just simply not buying, spare all the rhetoric here- just say that you're not buying because of the DRM and leave it at just that for now. Anything else is just noise.

[powered_by_tux]

Svartalf, copy-protection has NEVER been successful in even thwarting piracy in the slightest. Adding copy-protection is an ass-backwards move. Pirates will be pirates and no matter what copy protection scheme you put on it, piracy will happen. All copy-protection does is annoy the hell out of honest people. The gaming industry has been trying for years to come up with a fool proof protection and guess what? It's usually cracked within before it even hits the store shelves.

Even when a game is purchased, gamers tend to apply cracks to the games that they legally have purchased, and this is perfectly 100% legal in most countries. People don't like having to insert their original, find easily lost keys, have their systems sending who knows what to a company that is saying already "We think your a thief, prove us wrong.".

If you think the piracy groups are going to forget about trying to crack a game just because it is on linux your dead wrong. Hell there was a crack for the Penny Arcade game online before it was officially released. Release groups crack propriatary linux printer drivers for crying out loud.

Copyprotection only accomplishes this,

Piss off honest people and gives the crackers entertainment for an hour.

I couldn't agree more on that.

What will happen if let's say the LGP's servers are turned off and the activation system will never be available again? Linux game publishing isn't very lucrative I imagine. Would this mean any not already activated installed copy of the game will never be playable, too? This aside, I really want to buy X3 but if it includes this crippling technology (and chances are good it will) I fear my plans to buy this game are going to /dev/null because I'm not willing to pay a cent for DRM anymore.

I cannot understand why legal customers have to be punished just to keep people to pirate a software for a few days. Those people will pirate it anyway. And trust me this will be cracked, just look on the Windows software side. There are billions of cracks available for every application that just seems "not worth to crack".

[deanjo]

Svartalf,

Seriously, as a whole, the biggest reason people do not buy your games in the numbers that you should have is not because of lack of copyprotection.
It IS distribution. While many people do everything online nowdays, a lot of people are not willing to wait 2-3 weeks for delivery and give financial information over the net.

The majority of sales on games is still done via retail outlets. Even larger companies have figured this out. When it comes to online services and ordering, a majority of customers would rather go out and buy a gift/credit card at their local 7-11 and then use that to purchase their items if they have to purchase online. Gift cards account for over 70% of the largest media distributor on the web (iTunes). Why? The answer is simple, parents don't want to give their kids credit cards for purchasing on-line. And this is with a major company that people have little fear of it going out of business.

One of the biggest reasons WoW took off is because little Johnny can take his $20 allowance and go buy a few more hours on it at the local store by getting a new card.

Every linux game out there I bought was because the binaries were available for it at no extra cost and I could buy it at the local store. If the game was not at my local store, I wouldn't of bought it. People want to buy tangible merchandise that they can put their hands on right away. How well do you think the games such as Guitar Hero, Final Fantasy, etc etc etc would have done if they made it mail order only? I bet they would have sold less then 1% of the volume that they have simply because they didn't have it ready to buy and in hand for the consumer. Or how well do you think steam would have taken off if you had to first pay for the game and then wait for a couple of weeks before actually playing it. Games are impulse buys. It's the reason why now you have retail gaming stores in malls nowdays. A complete industry now evolves around it.

[muep]

I know this. You know this. You won't even have me argue the point (I was arguing this same discussion with Michael Simms back three years ago...)- I wholeheartedly agree with you.

The problem is, if you want to convince a publisher that it's going to "be okay" to do this, you either have to show them you don't have a piracy problem or sufficient numbers that it's less of a concern.

The biggest problem is not LGP. It's not even close.

How many people gave out reasons for pirating the stuff in just TODAY alone? How many people OPENLY ADMITTED that they didn't pay for it and played it all the same??

I don't agree with this at all- DRM of any kind is bad mojo. Honest.

Unfortunately, we, as a group, even on THIS forum, just mouthed off in a manner that would doom any desire, any plans for ANY title out of any of the mainline publishers, giving them all kinds of credence to insist upon DRM if it were to remotely be considered.

I think I understand the situation you are in. You need to appease two audiences with very high and conflicting demands. I am sure it is not an easy situation to be in, and everyone should take a moment thinking about it.

Too bad that the result of this cooperation between you and the bigger game companies doesn't result in good results. The current outcome isn't really an improvement over a game that happens to run well in Wine. (I could use the Sacred Gold copy for Windows without buying it a second time, and with a less disrupting copyright enforcement mechanism.)

[Xipeos]

OPENLY stated that he played without paying on not one but two different titles- ostensibly because they "weren't worth buying".

Whoa... you're getting the wrong idea.. I love those games and they're worth every penny. I would buy them if I had the possibility, and will buy them when I have my own income.

Furthermore, I doubt going to a friend and playing a game is a crime. just throwing that there..

[Licaon]

What will happen if let's say the LGP's servers are turned off and the activation system will never be available again? Linux game publishing isn't very lucrative I imagine. Would this mean any not already activated installed copy of the game will never be playable, too?This is Bioshock deja-vu (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1680) :(

i for one can't really understand why copy protections are still forced upon users, as long as the full game + crack are made available by crackers anyway, does any publisher have any reliable study that shows how a 1 week delay influenced any sales ?

piracy has been here as long as copy protections were available, and piracy won't kill PC gaming, as piracy is spread onto consoles as well, piracy might be a problem, yet gaming industry ( gaming is art...is industry...riggght? ) has thrived in the last years, i don't see any gaming Dev's getting different jobs.


"It tanked on Windows..."
heh...did i release that as CC ? :D
anyway i just hope that the piracy issue won't become another scapegoat for LGP, like Titan Quest/UT3 and others used to cover their bad games ( read "bad" as not interesting enough or something )

will i pirate Sacred? no, i did not pirate it for Windows
will i buy Sacred? prabably no, i did not buy it for Windows, i played the Demo and did not like it enough
will it be a Linux Demo? if yes, i'll play it anyway just because it's a Linux game Demo

[Svartalf]

Whoa... you're getting the wrong idea.. I love those games and they're worth every penny. I would buy them if I had the possibility, and will buy them when I have my own income.

Furthermore, I doubt going to a friend and playing a game is a crime. just throwing that there..

Anyone making the remark you made would have had the reader unfortunately going there. No harm done in your case. :D

God...this whole discussion...I feel really, really old today.

[stan.distortion]

True about PC software being cracked as soon as copy protection existed, and probably has a lot to do with the heavy focus on console game development at the mo (and I have yet to try a port of a console game that is worth playing).
ETQW has no copy protection whatsoever until you go to play it online. I bought that game after playing the demo in single player and would have been quite happy to spend a week or two playing all the maps in single player. 'Course, tried it online (all of 20 seconds to enter the code and never a whisper from it since) and was well and truly hooked.
Big kudos to ID, right from the very start they handed out doom for free (I happily paid for 6 copies of it in total), now I find they have more or less said "take it if you want it, just stay off the servers" with ETQW (happily bought and paid for) so when 'Raid' comes out I will resist playing the demo to save the anticipation for the (bought and paid for) full game. Which will probably have little or no C-P.
Quality counts and I for one am happy to put my money where my mouth is. Now to confess that I too DL'd a copy of X2. The reason? I'm a freetard scumbag? No (well...), because the demo had sound and graphics issues. I would have been happy to pay the slightly over the top price but it turned out the game had the same issues plus a couple more with the controls. After a full day of trying to sort these out it got wiped from the PC. If X3's demo (if there is one) works without issue then my credit card will take a hit, if not... I wont be able to check so will give it a miss and wait with baited breath for ID's next project.
cheers

[Svartalf]

heh...did i release that as CC ? :D


ROFLMAO! You DID run it up the flagpole, Liacon... :D

And it's not being used to beat you up with- I've seen it elsewhere which is why I brought it back up from the grave.


anyway i just hope that the piracy issue won't become another scapegoat for LGP, like Titan Quest/UT3 and others used to cover their
bad games ( read "bad" as not interesting enough or something )


Careful with the "bad" there. I'm beginning to consider certain Windows/Console titles as "bad" because they're not worth playing (More eyecandy than really fun gameplay...), but there's an "Abandon all hope" thread for the Linux version for the game because of it's delay, now nearly 8 months now. As for the piracy issue, it's a real one, unfortunately. Moreover, it's one of the bugaboos for the work in obtaining porting rights, believe it or not.

Why we have the problems we have- you already know that; we've hashed that out in length in the thread where you issued that infamous remark.


will i pirate Sacred? no, i did not pirate it for Windows
will i buy Sacred? prabably no, i did not buy it for Windows, i played the Demo and did not like it enough
will it be a Linux Demo? if yes, i'll play it anyway just because it's a Linux game Demo

Yanno... That's the best comment from someone that might not buy the game in this thread so far... :D

[Redeeman]

In this thread, there have been at least 2-3 hinted at acts of infringement. One poster OPENLY stated that he played without paying on not one but two different titles- ostensibly because they "weren't worth buying". Well, that's the excuse MOST of the Windows pirates have...

i hope you do not consider my statement as a "hinted act of infringement".


Do you for a moment think they're going to think they're going to see any money whatsoever from the community when they read all of this stuff and all the stuff in the other areas on the subject of ported titles?

If you do, you're sadly mistaken.

so because people suddenly claim they wont buy, because they are for all practical purposes, being treated as criminals, that means people do not wish to buy? this is what stupid moron CEO's think, and thats because they are unintelligent morons which quite frankly, shouldnt be allowed to roam free without extended observation..


If you don't agree with the DRM, just don't buy. Quickest way to send a message, really. Don't comment on playing without paying or buying and then breaking the DRM- either just contributes to the same crap you're claiming you're against. All you people are doing when you do this is fueling the fire. No different than the crap that RIAA and MPAA have been doing for some time now. And all the idiots kept doing is feeding the fire with flash naptha instead of just walking away. You're NOT entitled to anything.

buying and breaking DRM is perfectly legal most places, i see nothing wrong with it, and neither does the LAW most places.. If stupid title owners or publishers or whatever it is, thinks this is a message of "oooh no a bunch of freeloaders taht wont buy?!?!!? just because we openly call them criminals and put them in a bad light?!?! OHOHH THE HUMANITY", welll, then its them that are stupid, not us..

And btw, i do not pirate software.. I have however on atleast one occasion purchased a piece of software, and (LEGALLY, thats right, LEGALLY!) broken copy protection to be able to use it fairly.


if DRM really were able to stop piracy, then i could understand the wish from content producers to employ it, but as it stands now, it doesent help them one bit, in fact, ill bet good money, that DRM for the various things current, for instance dvd, bluray, hddvd, games, has COST more than it has gained them..

But even if DRM helped, it would still be wrong to apply it this way, as you are practically accusing people of being "pirates".


And lastly, i also agree that mailorder for games today is completely insane, and NOT the way to make money.. its like the record industry, trying to force a 10 year obsoleted distribution method upon the world.. its bound to be a failure..

I want to see some screenshots and a big honking button saying "visa", and then afterwards, a big honking "DOWNLOAD" button.

[grigi]

Woa! Now, I'm definitely going to get Sacred, and I want X2 & X3 too. The price DOES get to me, but I understand that supporting the small guys IS important too. The only LGP game I currently have is Cold War (A surprisingly good title). The copy protection does not bother me. I personally think that it DOES help, but more advanced versions of DRM does not, IMHO. I'd prefer a system where you attach the key to your "LGP Account", per say.

Instead of just this... half-account business, I ask that we get an option at a full account, kind of like a Steam account.

I also find it profound that so many people are ... advocating piracy. I mean? HELLOOO?

The problem comes in... I'm afraid to put money down for those games, because I don't know if they actually WILL come out? Are there really so many X3 special edition copies still available? according to tuxgames they are all sold out?

Also regarding buying Linux games... I came across tuxgames by following a link from this site, so as an ordinary Linux user I would not even know where to buy the stuff.

[Licaon]

God...this whole discussion...I feel really, really old today.that "i don't have the money" slogan is so bulls******
come on, they've got enough money to buy hardware for Crysis ( you'll need a 400$ video card, and that's just a piece of the computer ), but you can't raise ( from your launch money, parents ) 40$ for a game every 3 months or so, and games worth buying aren't even released that often

[Svartalf]

I think I understand the situation you are in. You need to appease two audiences with very high and conflicting demands. I am sure it is not an easy situation to be in, and everyone should take a moment thinking about it.


Thank you for a reasoned remark. :D

You see right to the point here on this. The whole situation makes me sick, the truth be known. But I can see Michael's and the other publisher's viewpoint and while I'm good at reconciling things (as is Michael Simms, really) I can't quite fix the problem without help from both sides- and neither seem to want to work with us on this.


Too bad that the result of this cooperation between you and the bigger game companies doesn't result in good results. The current outcome isn't really an improvement over a game that happens to run well in Wine. (I could use the Sacred Gold copy for Windows without buying it a second time, and with a less disrupting copyright enforcement mechanism.)


You need to get the publisher of Sacred and Ascaron to see it in a bit of a differing light.

I would dearly love nothing better than to collect just the base royalties needed plus proceeds sufficent to cover a bit of money going to operational costs (namely network support for LGP, money to people like me in the teams, etc...) and let you buy the installer at rock-bottom cost and use your old media. Unfortunately, there would always be someone cheating a bit in the mix if you think about it a bit. Which is why, while it makes perfect sense to US, would give them the willies and it's not quite likely to happen.

As for being no different than WINE, heh... I'd beg to differ with it. It's in-between a non-DRMed native version and an okay running version of the Windows title in WINE. Moreover, it offers a sales figure point for Linux- and if enough people sign off on it, we can be in a better position to do something a little less obnoxious or more appealing the next pass around.

[Vadi]

I can't blame them.

But why couldn't they do it in GTK 2 with some nice stock icons? It looks fugly.

[Svartalf]

i hope you do not consider my statement as a "hinted act of infringement".


Not quite as such, but some might view it that way (And, NO, I wasn't implying you were- you're not in that list... ;) )


so because people suddenly claim they wont buy, because they are for all practical purposes, being treated as criminals, that means people do not wish to buy? this is what stupid moron CEO's think, and thats because they are unintelligent morons which quite frankly, shouldnt be allowed to roam free without extended observation..


ROFLMAO! On that note, you're preaching to the choir... ;)


buying and breaking DRM is perfectly legal most places, i see nothing wrong with it, and neither does the LAW most places.. If stupid title owners or publishers or whatever it is, thinks this is a message of "oooh no a bunch of freeloaders taht wont buy?!?!!? just because we openly call them criminals and put them in a bad light?!?! OHOHH THE HUMANITY", welll, then its them that are stupid, not us..


Unfortunately, if you live in the USA, it's illegal unless it's for compatibility reasons. This means if you're trying to play Blu-Ray and there's no "legal" players, so long as you're doing it for playback on legitimately owned titles, it's legal- anything else is illegal. Same goes for ANYTHING else protected by DRM. Since that which you're talking about was a game, unless it's not got a Linux version and you're busting the DRM to play it under WINE, it's also there in the illegal column.

Now, you say, if you're not a US citizen, you don't have to worry, right? Wrong. Many of the Berne Convention contries are coming up with similar laws as we're writing this. Canada's come up with one vastly more draconian than the DMCA.

"The DMCA, coming to a country near you..."



And btw, i do not pirate software.. I have however on atleast one occasion purchased a piece of software, and (LEGALLY, thats right, LEGALLY!) broken copy protection to be able to use it fairly.


Heh... Sounds all too familiar. It's why I quit having anything to do with Windows stuff. It was just too effin' hard to get it to play nice under WINE without the DRM in place- with it, it was worse.

And...thank you for NOT pirating. :D

I didn't imply you were one; but it's nice hearing people openly state the same basic thing I've said for YEARS now.


And lastly, i also agree that mailorder for games today is completely insane, and NOT the way to make money.. its like the record industry, trying to force a 10 year obsoleted distribution method upon the world.. its bound to be a failure..

I want to see some screenshots and a big honking button saying "visa", and then afterwards, a big honking "DOWNLOAD" button.

Heh... If the studios and publishers would sign off on something like Steam for e-distribution and allow meatspace distribution the old-fashioned way, shipped upon an e-purchase via Steam, I'd jump at the chance to do things that way. Ditto anything similar.

[Licaon]

As for the piracy issue, it's a real one, unfortunately. Moreover, it's one of the bugaboos for the work in obtaining porting rights, believe it or not.now that i think of it better: it makes sense, we want as many games on Linux as they're on Windows, but somehow we need to accept the same bulls*** as the Windows version ( DRM&co ), now we have to choose the lesser evil between DRM or fewer ( new )games :(

oh, and get my nick right: Licaon :D

Moreover, it offers a sales figure point for Linux- and if enough people sign off on it, we can be in a better position to do something a little less obnoxious or more appealing the next pass around.yes, or maybe it will get nastier, just to get those extra sales that were skipped by people using the easily available P2P cracked version, 'cause if we go the Windows way of DRM we only get worse, limited installs, online registration, heck if LGP could afford pressed CDs that much (so that Linux games are on the retailers shelves) even binary loadable stuff, and we will eat that just for the greater good of Linux gaming... at least if we like the game

this is my main concern, how many players liked the game enough to get it a second time for Linux? or liked it enough to buy it now on Linux?
i feel (and i'm sorry that i feel like this) that the game itself will hurt sales, yet i would buy Fallout1-2/BaldursGate1-2/VampireBloodlines/Diablo1-2/DeusEx/Morrowind/Gothic1-2-3/TheWitcher again if a Linux version is made, so maybe if enough true fans that became Linux users in the mean time will buy the game things will work out

[miles]

Svartalf, it might be that I'm just plain stupid, but I see some contradictions in your comments.

You're saying (and I agree with that up to a certain extent) that people should vote with their wallet and not send the wrong message by buying games for Windows if their OS is Linux (and if they also would like to see games developed and ported to Linux).

On the other hand, you're trying to present LGP's decision as dictated by the need to offer game protections to get the rights to port certain games (I wouldn't say it's the obvious reason when reading the quotes in Phoronix' article).

Now why doesn't LGP (and you if you help porting these games to Linux) vote where there mouth is by sending the right message and only porting games when publisher don't endorse copy protection schemes?

You could say that there wouldn't be any games to be ported, but that's not what gamers' experience on the Windows side tell us. Egosoft, like I said, has a very nice policy about copy protection, and I can't imagine they would ask LGP to play harder than they do on Windows. Egosoft isn't the only company doing that - just thinking about Stardock there. Here is a company (Stardock) that are a successful Indie developer, cares about their customers, and is run by people proud of their games, and you're telling me they wouldn't want those games ported on Linux?

Unless I see in plain writing letters or emails showing that LGP has asked Star Dock if they could port Sins of A Solar Empire for Linux, and Stardock refusing because there's no copy protection in Linux, how do you expect me to believe LGP (or you) when they say the only reason only old games are ported to Linux is because the publishers are against it?

Are these good games to ambitious for LGP? Does LGP know they couldn't handle it? Does LGP give those publishers the impression they couldn't handle it? Maybe. However, who can believe it's because those developers/publishers are against anyone porting those games for Linux?

Isn't LGP actually doing with copy protection the exact thing they/you blame people that by Windows games to play them through wine? If LGP is doing it when it has the choice, who can blame gamers that DON'T have a choice? LGP can chose other games to port, gamers OTOH are stuck with no alternative when they want to play certain kind of games.

(And I precise I'm not saying it's great to buy Windows games)

[Svartalf]

Svartalf,

Seriously, as a whole, the biggest reason people do not buy your games in the numbers that you should have is not because of lack of copyprotection.
It IS distribution. While many people do everything online nowdays, a lot of people are not willing to wait 2-3 weeks for delivery and give financial information over the net.

The majority of sales on games is still done via retail outlets. Even larger companies have figured this out. When it comes to online services and ordering, a majority of customers would rather go out and buy a gift/credit card at their local 7-11 and then use that to purchase their items if they have to purchase online. Gift cards account for over 70% of the largest media distributor on the web (iTunes). Why? The answer is simple, parents don't want to give their kids credit cards for purchasing on-line. And this is with a major company that people have little fear of it going out of business.

One of the biggest reasons WoW took off is because little Johnny can take his $20 allowance and go buy a few more hours on it at the local store by getting a new card.

Every linux game out there I bought was because the binaries were available for it at no extra cost and I could buy it at the local store. If the game was not at my local store, I wouldn't of bought it. People want to buy tangible merchandise that they can put their hands on right away. How well do you think the games such as Guitar Hero, Final Fantasy, etc etc etc would have done if they made it mail order only? I bet they would have sold less then 1% of the volume that they have simply because they didn't have it ready to buy and in hand for the consumer. Or how well do you think steam would have taken off if you had to first pay for the game and then wait for a couple of weeks before actually playing it. Games are impulse buys. It's the reason why now you have retail gaming stores in malls nowdays. A complete industry now evolves around it.

Did you think I didn't know all of this? :D

The problem is selling the retail chain on it as much as anything else.


Do you want to know what happened with Civilization: Call to Power's sales? They were to be storefront at several differing locations. I barely managed to score the ONLY copy that Electronic Boutique had in the store in my area- they didn't restock it afterwards.

Do you want to know what happened with the Ultimate Quake pack that came out just shortly before Q3:A was supposed to come out (Around June-July of 1999...)? It never showed up in ANY of the stores it was supposed to be in.

We've already gone into part of the problems with Q3:A's sales- did you know that it was also supposed to be storefront in many places and only managed online or sales via Fry's or Micro Center and in limited quantities?

All three of those instances were because the Managers of the store chains get to select what gets delivered to them to a point, inventory-wise, and they couldn't grasp the difference between the Linux SKU, or if they did, they didn't want to deal with the hassle of Windows users buying the wrong SKU.

It's no different now.

The only way you're going to see what you're describing is if you have Linux exceed the critical mass level and end up forcing the issue and pushing Windows stuff out of the floor space.

[Aradreth]

yet i would buy Fallout1-2/BaldursGate1-2/VampireBloodlines/Diablo1-2/DeusEx/Morrowind/Gothic1-2-3/TheWitcher again if a Linux version is made, so maybe if enough true fans that became Linux users in the mean time will buy the game things will work out
I dream of those (and a couple of others like Planescape & beyond good and evil) games being ported!

Anyway I see a lot of people complaining about not being able to buy linux games/not wanting to wait for shipping as all the stores are based in the EU etc. All I can think of is that someone who wants a bit of extra cash should set up a sellers account on amazon.com because I'm sure all the customers in the US/Canada/etc. would love it. Probably more work then it's worth though but if I lived in the US I'd probably give it a shot.

[Aradreth]

Here is a company (Stardock) that are a successful Indie developer, cares about their customers, and is run by people proud of their games, and you're telling me they wouldn't want those games ported on Linux?
I have a huge respect for Stardock and their views on copy protection, I wish more developers/Publishers where like them.

An interview is one of the co-owners can be found at bit-tech here (http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2008/06/06/sins-of-a-solar-empire-interview/1) and their views on piracy can be seen one page 3

edit: I thought that was the right article but I just read it a bit more and I appear to have gotten it confused with another one...
edit 2: I think this (http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/post.aspx?postid=303512) forum post is what I was thinking of (only glanced over it but it appears to be correct)

[wiscados]

Great!
Just saved me some money, never gonna buy from them again...

[Licaon]

I dream of those (and a couple of others like Planescape & beyond good and evil) games being ported!and Arcanum, Maxpayne1-2, Cronicles of Riddick, Kotor1-2, Mafia, Stalker, Thief1-2-3, ToEE, and others :D

i agree with these points:
The Publishers vs. The Pirates, Part 1 (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1556)
The Publishers vs. The Pirates, Part 2 (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1558)
The Publishers vs. The Pirates, Part 3 (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1559)

[stan.distortion]

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2008/06/06/sins-of-a-solar-empire-interview/3
its about half way down, reading through it now.

[deanjo]

Did you think I didn't know all of this? :D

The problem is selling the retail chain on it as much as anything else.


Do you want to know what happened with Civilization: Call to Power's sales? They were to be storefront at several differing locations. I barely managed to score the ONLY copy that Electronic Boutique had in the store in my area- they didn't restock it afterwards.

Do you want to know what happened with the Ultimate Quake pack that came out just shortly before Q3:A was supposed to come out (Around June-July of 1999...)? It never showed up in ANY of the stores it was supposed to be in.

We've already gone into part of the problems with Q3:A's sales- did you know that it was also supposed to be storefront in many places and only managed online or sales via Fry's or Micro Center and in limited quantities?

All three of those instances were because the Managers of the store chains get to select what gets delivered to them to a point, inventory-wise, and they couldn't grasp the difference between the Linux SKU, or if they did, they didn't want to deal with the hassle of Windows users buying the wrong SKU.

It's no different now.

The only way you're going to see what you're describing is if you have Linux exceed the critical mass level and end up forcing the issue and pushing Windows stuff out of the floor space.


So if your going to force people to purchase games with copy protection via snail mail why not do the smart thing to increase your profits. F*ck the box, load up a torrent of the game and sell the serial. Hell even put up just the binary as an alternative option if they already have the game to download because you don't have to worry about the packaging/shipping costs and people get rather instant gratification from their purchase. Saving all that money on not having to press DVD's and packaging would only make it that more profitable or you could also just pass those savings on to the consumer.

If your going to force the customer to be authenicated online there is no need to charge the consumer for the expenses of a retail box.

[Aradreth]

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2008/06/06/sins-of-a-solar-empire-interview/3
its about half way down, reading through it now.
actually the bit I was referring to is (second link towards the bottom)
...We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates. Pirates don't count. We know our customers could pirate our games if they want but choose to support our efforts. So we return the favor - we make the games they want and deliver them how they want it. This is also known as operating like every other industry outside the PC game industry...
you need to read that parts around it as well...

[Svartalf]

Svartalf, it might be that I'm just plain stupid, but I see some contradictions in your comments.


They're only contradictions in that I've no say in the DRM thing... :D


You're saying (and I agree with that up to a certain extent) that people should vote with their wallet and not send the wrong message by buying games for Windows if their OS is Linux (and if they also would like to see games developed and ported to Linux).


Indeed. The DRM thing's kind of blind-sided me a bit- otherwise everything is as you claim it is.


On the other hand, you're trying to present LGP's decision as dictated by the need to offer game protections to get the rights to port certain games (I wouldn't say it's the obvious reason when reading the quotes in Phoronix' article).


Some of it is that. Some of it is that we've been seeing evidence of piracy for some time now. I've had discussions with Michael Simms on the subject and this rancor he saw in the beta list and we're seeing now is something I warned him about. Unfortunately, if they're not seeing as many sales as they're needing and seeing piracy (and this IS the case), either he folds up shop or does something like this.


Now why doesn't LGP (and you if you help porting these games to Linux) vote where there mouth is by sending the right message and only porting games when publisher don't endorse copy protection schemes?


I help on some of them, yes. Unfortunately, you don't get the luxury of picking and choosing who gives you access to what. Many of the studios are reasonable. The publishers, typically, are not. I'm about as anti-DRM as you get, really. No Blu-Ray. Put off getting a PS-3 so far because of that DRM.


You could say that there wouldn't be any games to be ported, but that's not what gamers' experience on the Windows side tell us. Egosoft, like I said, has a very nice policy about copy protection, and I can't imagine they would ask LGP to play harder than they do on Windows. Egosoft isn't the only company doing that - just thinking about Stardock there. Here is a company (Stardock) that are a successful Indie developer, cares about their customers, and is run by people proud of their games, and you're telling me they wouldn't want those games ported on Linux?


Heh... Stardock used to think Linux was a waste of time. Got that straight from their President when I'd offered to port some of their stuff in the past before I got associated with LGP. Egosoft, I'd have to concur- but with Michael making the decisions he's making, I don't know... I don't like the idea, and in this, I'm not speaking on behalf of LGP.

I'm not so much defending the decision as reacting in shock and dismay to the remarks, their color and content, in response to the news that LGP is instituting DRM. I would rather that Michael DIDN'T do this, but I'm not in a position to gainsay the whole deal. Moreover, there's been enough remarks about things of this nature in one day that would lead a businessman worrying about his bottom line with Copyrighted works to consider doing DRM in spite of the uproar we're seeing.


Unless I see in plain writing letters or emails showing that LGP has asked Star Dock if they could port Sins of A Solar Empire for Linux, and Stardock refusing because there's no copy protection in Linux, how do you expect me to believe LGP (or you) when they say the only reason only old games are ported to Linux is because the publishers are against it?


In this case, I suspect that it's that they want a bit too much money. Most of the situations are of that nature. I can't think Stardock insisting on DRM, but I could Id, Epic, 3DRealms, etc.


Are these good games to ambitious for LGP? Does LGP know they couldn't handle it? Does LGP give those publishers the impression they couldn't handle it? Maybe. However, who can believe it's because those developers/publishers are against anyone porting those games for Linux?


Oh, it's not even close to that.

Got $50-75kUS? You probably could get Stardock to allow you access to the code for that. However, keep in mind, that doesn't buy you the right to PUBLISH that work- that's just the money to license the right to port the code. It's probably another $10-15k for a 3k unit run- at the very least. Got a $100k burning in your pocket? You too can publish a game.


Isn't LGP actually doing with copy protection the exact thing they/you blame people that by Windows games to play them through wine? If LGP is doing it when it has the choice, who can blame gamers that DON'T have a choice? LGP can chose other games to port, gamers OTOH are stuck with no alternative when they want to play certain kind of games.


No. And I've little idea how you conflated WINE with DRM...

DRM regulates access to a given title.
WINE allows you to run WINDOWS binaries on a Linux box.

DRM doesn't make a vote for more Windows titles.
WINE does.

I've not said you shouldn't use WINE. If there's no port possible or likely, it's the only way- and I've said as much. But buying titles this way perpetuates the problem. I've pointed that out to get people to think about what they're doing.

It's when there's a native version for Linux and a Windows version that the real problem occurs. Sales figures are part of what is making the figures I'm quoting you up above for porting so ridiculous and making it difficult to get "nice" or "new" titles.

[niniendowarrior]

It just happens at every thread, now does it?

LGP's copy protection system though would force users to go online, wouldn't it?

I used to work on Linux software house and the management beat on us to put in a copy protection mechanism on the software. It's really how the commercial world works. These businessmen are interested in protecting their investment. If something is sold in the software world, eventually, the business thinks about the protection of their sale. Unfortunately for us, this means Game Copy Protection in the case of LGP.

Deal with it and move on. It's here to stay, as far as I'm concerned. You don't like it? Don't buy it.

[miles]

No. And I've little idea how you conflated WINE with DRM...

DRM regulates access to a given title.
WINE allows you to run WINDOWS binaries on a Linux box.

DRM doesn't make a vote for more Windows titles.
WINE does.

DRM makes a vote for DRM titles. The fact they're from LGP doesn't even change anything - buying these titles from LGP would be a blatant vote for DRM.

WINE doesn't make a vote for more Windows titles if you're buying a second-hand title from somebody that finished the game or didn't like it (and yes, it's LEGAL. If you don't want to support Windows titles while having no other choice because there's no Linux equivalent, buy it second hand NOT from a shop so you don't count as a Windows consumer for anybody). However I still think it's important to encourage SOME Windows developers when they're producing risky highly original content - Indie developers or even big names that go in the right direction, while telling them you'd pay twice the price if they released a Linux version.

Oh, and yes - you don't like DRM, don't buy it / don't pirate it either. Which is what is going to happen here too.

I'm not going to say I'll never buy X3 (if the copy protection is on par with Egosoft's) - I'm an Elite fan after all, but I tried the demo a while ago and it just didn't click at all. I'm going to try the Linux demo again then decide. Meanwhile EVE ONLINE HAS A LINUX CLIENT! (just saw that tonight)

[stan.distortion]

You don't like it? Don't buy it.
True, money talks in this day and age but a lot of money-man are a bit to set in their ways to listen. The bit-tech interview was interesting, sales increasing BECAUSE there is no DRM must be causing a bit of a stir. How long will that last though? Nine Inch Nails waved two fingers at DRM recently by giving away the first of a 2 CD set for free and at high bitrate. And $5 for the full CD in FLAC, $10 through the post.
They did OK out of it, I bought it and know another 15 who did the same, but how long before the novelty wares of and folks turn back to emule? I wish I could believe the morality will last but only a fool would bet on it.
They only thing that makes sense for the money men behind the games industry is to focus on the consoles and just work on on-line games for PC's. Shame as it will mean more 'disengage brain before playing' ported titles. Means more focus on easily ported games though so it's not all bad.
cheers

[stan.distortion]

but I tried the demo a while ago and it just didn't click at all.
That's a native linux demo or on wine?

[Vadi]

It just happens at every thread, now does it?

LGP's copy protection system though would force users to go online, wouldn't it?

I used to work on Linux software house and the management beat on us to put in a copy protection mechanism on the software. It's really how the commercial world works. These businessmen are interested in protecting their investment. If something is sold in the software world, eventually, the business thinks about the protection of their sale. Unfortunately for us, this means Game Copy Protection in the case of LGP.

Deal with it and move on. It's here to stay, as far as I'm concerned. You don't like it? Don't buy it.

Quoted for truth.

[Aradreth]

I'm not going to say I'll never buy X3 (if the copy protection is on par with Egosoft's) - I'm an Elite fan after all, but I tried the demo a while ago and it just didn't click at all. I'm going to try the Linux demo again then decide. Meanwhile EVE ONLINE HAS A LINUX CLIENT! (just saw that tonight)
I don't think anyone wants to release another starforce...

True, money talks in this day and age but a lot of money-man are a bit to set in their ways to listen. The bit-tech interview was interesting, sales increasing BECAUSE there is no DRM must be causing a bit of a stir. How long will that last though? Nine Inch Nails waved two fingers at DRM recently by giving away the first of a 2 CD set for free and at high bitrate. And $5 for the full CD in FLAC, $10 through the post.
I grabbed the NIN cd as well even though I don't normally listen to his music. As for the increase sales lasting? I some how doubt it would last as well because most pirates do it just because they want something for free instead of because they refuse to buy DRM infected games.

[Aradreth]

That's a native linux demo or on wine?
Wine I would think as the X3 demo for linux isn't out yet.

[Svartalf]

DRM makes a vote for DRM titles. The fact they're from LGP doesn't even change anything - buying these titles from LGP would be a blatant vote for DRM.


Heh... I think you'll find that I see no discrepancy with my thoughts and yours... ;)


WINE doesn't make a vote for more Windows titles if you're buying a second-hand title from somebody that finished the game or didn't like it (and yes, it's LEGAL. If you don't want to support Windows titles while having no other choice because there's no Linux equivalent, buy it second hand NOT from a shop so you don't count as a Windows consumer for anybody). However I still think it's important to encourage SOME Windows developers when they're producing risky highly original content - Indie developers or even big names that go in the right direction, while telling them you'd pay twice the price if they released a Linux version.


Sorry... You're wrong there. You bought it from someone or someone else bought it. Each purchased item counts as a vote, a network effect item FOR the platform it was written for. It doesn't matter that you bought it or someone else did- it was still purchased, still a vote lurking about for that platform.

If you want to help make Linux games happen you're going to have to wean yourself off of Windows games- how you do that is not my concern and I'm not going to tell you how to do it. ;)

(If you have issues with what is offered on Linux, for whatever reason, I suggest Nintendo or PS3- but if you've issues with DRM, you can pretty much forego most stuff as it's everywhere...sorry... But, if you chose that route, keep in mind that you're voting for whatever platform you choose other than Windows...).


Oh, and yes - you don't like DRM, don't buy it / don't pirate it either. Which is what is going to happen here too.


Unfortunately, yes, I fear you're right- which will just fuel the fires just like it's done with the RIAA and MPAA crap.


I'm not going to say I'll never buy X3 (if the copy protection is on par with Egosoft's) - I'm an Elite fan after all, but I tried the demo a while ago and it just didn't click at all. I'm going to try the Linux demo again then decide.


Fair enough. All anyone would ever ask of a person in this business, really. :D


Meanwhile EVE ONLINE HAS A LINUX CLIENT! (just saw that tonight)


Uses WINE to do it- keep that one in mind... The upshot, however, is I think they count it as a Linux sale, so it's okay, just going to have operational issues from time to time. :D

[Licaon]

Nine Inch Nails waved two fingers at DRM recently by giving away the first of a 2 CD set for free and at high bitrate. And $5 for the full CD in FLAC, $10 through the post.
They did OK out of it, I bought it and know another 15 who did the same, but how long before the novelty wares of and folks turn back to emule? I wish I could believe the morality will last but only a fool would bet on it.the music industry gets it's money back with concerts, you can't compare them

[Vadi]

Uses WINE to do it- keep that one in mind... The upshot, however, is I think they count it as a Linux sale, so it's okay, just going to have operational issues from time to time. :D


Yeah, and they advertize linux support on the website properly too. It's good.

[deanjo]

the music industry gets it's money back with concerts, you can't compare them

Svartalf tried to make it work for LPG too, unfortunately he can't carry a tune.

[Svartalf]

I don't think anyone wants to release another starforce...

Save EA...they're into anal probing (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/9/) the gamers, from what I hear. What's another StarFarce DRM fiasco to them? :D

[Kano]

When a game is single player only it is highly unlikely that customers want to accept this restriction. Of course steam is using the same way, but there you can at least easyly buy and download the games. But when you have the game on media thats really no good idea. For games with optional online it would be enough when you have to use that login/pass thing when you want to use maybe worldwide stats, multiplayer games via internet and similar things - but keep the single player part without. If the online part really gives extra value to the game then you don't have to fear pirates.

[zeb_]

As a long-time LGP customer (I bought Majestic, Postal 2, X2) and as a beta tester for X3 (pre-ordered), I have to say I am extremely disappointed by this move and also very doubtful the DRM will increase their sales.

If I pay a premium for those games, it is not to get the same issues than under Windows. The only DRM I would accept would be similar to RTCW or Doom 3: a license key where the single player campaign does not require internet connection and does not "call home". If I wanted DRM, I would buy a £5 version for Windows and use it under Wine. If I decide to pay £25 for a 4-year old game, it is really for a service, which does NOT imply that I am a potential criminal.

If really LGP management think that all pirated versions will transform into payed versions, they are highly mistaken. Once again, the honest customer is penalised by a technology which will not stop piracy. And pissing off your customers in a niche which is already small is certainly not a smart move.

I was genuinely going to pre-order Sacred and participate to the beta testing, but now strongly reconsider. I will send my opinion by email to LGP, and hope I will not be the only one, so that they can reconsider and at least relax the rule (I'd like the single-player campaign does not require any connection).

[Svartalf]

Svartalf tried to make it work for LPG too, unfortunately he can't carry a tune.

I can't with that heavy 16-ton DRM hanging around my neck... :D

I've not heard back from Lead Pursuit yet...yet... As for publication, I don't know whom I'll do it through yet. Take that as you wish, fyi...

[deanjo]

When a game is single player only it is highly unlikely that customers want to accept this restriction. Of course steam is using the same way, but there you can at least easyly buy and download the games. But when you have the game on media thats really no good idea. For games with optional online it would be enough when you have to use that login/pass thing when you want to use maybe worldwide stats, multiplayer games via internet and similar things - but keep the single player part without. If the online part really gives extra value to the game then you don't have to fear pirates.


With online verification there is very little need for physical media. If they are going to do online verification then just torrent the iso and sell the key online. Less overhead, faster delivery, can yell the "We're Green" madness leading to greater profits.

[Svartalf]

I was genuinely going to pre-order Sacred and participate to the beta testing, but now strongly reconsider. I will send my opinion by email to LGP, and hope I will not be the only one, so that they can reconsider and at least relax the rule (I'd like the single-player campaign does not require any connection).

You want to get this changed? Convince him that it's a better idea to not do it. What you just said, if you put it in nice, clean, professional terms (as if you were addressing a Judge or similar...)- you MIGHT get some traction and get your way if enough of you all do it that way.

I've no say in the matter. I've probably already said more than I ought to have on the subject today as it is.

[deanjo]

I
I've not heard back from Lead Pursuit yet...yet... As for publication, I don't know whom I'll do it through yet. Take that as you wish, fyi...

Heh, actually I was talking to the guys at G2 Interactive today .........*the rest of this story has to be censored*

[Aradreth]

Save EA...they're into anal probing (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/9/) the gamers, from what I hear. What's another StarFarce DRM fiasco to them? :D
EA is "special" really they are all about screwing the customer (literally apparently!) I thought that was the whole point of their games...

[stan.distortion]

With online verification there is very little need for physical media. If they are going to do online verification then just torrent the iso and sell the key online. Less overhead, faster delivery, can yell the "We're Green" madness leading to greater profits.
All well and good but only if you are 100% certain every user will be online. A big message on the box to say you need an internet connection is no big deal though and you can be fairly sure 99% of linux gamers are on the net.

[deanjo]

All well and good but only if you are 100% certain every user will be online. A big message on the box to say you need an internet connection is no big deal though and you can be fairly sure 99% of linux gamers are on the net.

Why would you need every user online to get rid of the physical medium?

[stan.distortion]

For the copy protection, the key would have to be validated online or one key would work for every game. Bit stupid on my part, the torrent connection isn't going to come through the post :) That does leave folks with no connection out in the cold but torrents and an emailed, individual key would be the best distribution method, could even leave a section of the torrented file usable with no key so it doubles up as the demo.
cheers

[miles]

That's a native linux demo or on wine?

No, that was a Windows demo (no Linux demo yet). I don't really care if I count as a Windows potential customer to them since they already made the X2 port to Linux possible, and the port of X3 to Linux had already been announced. Actually I don't even care downloading any games demo considering how many types of games aren't available in Linux.

X3 should work well through wine since they released the patch to remove Starforce.

[Redeeman]

Default
It just happens at every thread, now does it?

LGP's copy protection system though would force users to go online, wouldn't it?

I used to work on Linux software house and the management beat on us to put in a copy protection mechanism on the software. It's really how the commercial world works. These businessmen are interested in protecting their investment. If something is sold in the software world, eventually, the business thinks about the protection of their sale. Unfortunately for us, this means Game Copy Protection in the case of LGP.

Deal with it and move on. It's here to stay, as far as I'm concerned. You don't like it? Don't buy it.

thats just stupid, DRM doesent protect SHIT, and if those "businessmen" and the "commercial world" thinks that, what they need is not to be obeyed, they need to be put in a damn mental institution to be studied, in hopes of finding a cure..

[Svartalf]

Heh, actually I was talking to the guys at G2 Interactive today .........*the rest of this story has to be censored*

Oooh... Shame you can't discuss it. What I've done seems to have dropped off in a black hole. Could you use the contact over there to put them in touch with me? Honest.

[Aradreth]

thats just stupid, DRM doesent protect SHIT, and if those "businessmen" and the "commercial world" thinks that, what they need is not to be obeyed, they need to be put in a damn mental institution to be studied, in hopes of finding a cure..
I agree with you that DRM is pretty useless as it WILL be crack no matter how advanced; but having DRM can mean the difference between LGP getting to port a title over and being told to hit to road so introducing it will hopefully allow LGP to get it's hands on better titles.

[miles]

Sorry... You're wrong there. You bought it from someone or someone else bought it. Each purchased item counts as a vote, a network effect item FOR the platform it was written for. It doesn't matter that you bought it or someone else did- it was still purchased, still a vote lurking about for that platform.

If you want to help make Linux games happen you're going to have to wean yourself off of Windows games- how you do that is not my concern and I'm not going to tell you how to do it. ;)

I don't agree a single bit. Buying a second hand single-user title from somebody that wasn't expecting to make money from it doesn't count anywhere, neither for the publisher nor for the developers (nor for Microsoft if that matters). Of course it's going to be different for online multi-user titles, but I'm not talking about multi-user games.

You could twist the situation and still find a way it would affect the market (like getting more users to know the game and talk about it, but actually we, as gamers, talk about games we don't even play anyway), but that's not really going to be much relevant to Windows/Linux gaming situation.

And some game publishers still deserve to be supported, even if they don't develop games for Linux, be it Wii, PS3 or Windows games developers. Everyone will have their criteria in this regard, but there's the Windows ecosystem and there's the game ecosystem, the 2 are different agendas, and even though you might be satisfied with today's PC gaming, I'm not of that opinion, and I'd rather support what I'd like to play but isn't the fad atm.

On a personal note, weaning myself of Windows games didn't help making games for Linux happen. I just stopped playing games for years, going instead for online Go (IGS). It's only thanks to wine and playing Windows (horror!) games thanks to it that I've come back to video gaming, and a possible LGP customer. So I don't think encouraging people to steer away from Windows gaming is gonna help Linux gaming at all - people either stop playing games completely when they switch fully to Linux, or buy a game console. If you want to get them into Linux gaming, you need to keep them PC (=Windows) gamers. Once they're lost to PC gaming, it's too late.

Uses WINE to do it- keep that one in mind... The upshot, however, is I think they count it as a Linux sale, so it's okay, just going to have operational issues from time to time. :D

I've been using wine for years now for some applications pubished by non-profit associations that don't have the resources to make them available for Linux, and I must say they work better in Linux through wine than native in Windows.

I can understand that one needs to defend its beefsteak, but actually you'd be surprised how many programs works flawlessly through wine. The little "so it's okay, just going to have operational issues from time to time" are not advancing your cause in any way, more the contrary. All things being fair, closed-source native Linux applications (I'd say games included) also have "operational issues from time to time" and sometimes (often, considering I know what I'm running through wine) can do far worse.

So yeah, EVE Online uses wine to run on Linux, and with the respect I've developed for the wine project, that's something they should actually brag about. In regard to bugs (since that was the context of your sentence, not in regard to Linux development support) that's not a bad thing, some native Linux closed-apps have far worse results than what wine can do.

[deanjo]

For the copy protection, the key would have to be validated online or one key would work for every game. Bit stupid on my part, the torrent connection isn't going to come through the post :) That does leave folks with no connection out in the cold but torrents and an emailed, individual key would be the best distribution method, could even leave a section of the torrented file usable with no key so it doubles up as the demo.
cheers


I didn't imply that the key would be with the torrent. It's just the raw medium, keys could be purchased though any type of ecommerce solution you want. Since it needs to authenticate every once and a while I'm sure the key server has checks for abnormal amounts of duplicate keys. No valid key check, no running game.

[miles]

With online verification there is very little need for physical media. If they are going to do online verification then just torrent the iso and sell the key online. Less overhead, faster delivery, can yell the "We're Green" madness leading to greater profits.

Even though a few software companies already do things similar, there's some issues with this mode of distribution that prevent its use for more costly programs.

Once the data is legally delivered to your house, in most countries you can do whatever you want with it (and I'm not talking for the USA). That includes applying a patch to remove the protection (illegal only in a few countries, and even in those countries it would have to be fought in court before there's any certainty), or just typing a key you saw anywhere. Since publishing a suite of numbers/letters is totally legal, this mode of distribution would simplify the life of any "pirates" - just maintain a legal site with the keys available, and anybody can play the game without buying it and still do this 100% legally. They wouldn't even be "pirates" (man, I hate that word), that is they wouldn't be copyright infringers at all. Even if the key is only part of the protection, there's nothing a patch wouldn't solve, and since patches don't need to have any code from the original game, they'd also be perfectly legal for distribution in many countries. Plus, fighting legal battles about an user removing some protections with a patch would be far harder and more costly than suing file sharers, not to say quite impossible to catch.

[b15hop]

When there is a will there is a way. Doesn't matter how much anti pirate annoying "features" the product will be hacked. I like the idea of Good faith. I buy games that I like. Much like a vote. :) No point paying for something I don't play.

[killertux]

I counted 52(includes expansions,betas,alphas) genuine native Linux games here... but NONE of those require cd-check or online activation on startup for single player game... some of those even have sources available(ID Software)

Anyway it's not nice to pay LOT more than Windows version of the game and then include DRM that decreases the use value... less for more money.

LGP can drop dead if they do not remove the DRM(sooner or later) since I am not giving my money to DRM and if they drop dead they promised to remove the DRM :) if not someone else gets my money.

I also run quite many games in Wine but now I must stop paying for DRM Windows games too just to be equal to both Windows and Linux games.

[b15hop]

True, DRM is a vista feature, why should it be a Linux feature. :/ I don't buy DRM software.

[deanjo]

I counted 52(includes expansions,betas,alphas) genuine native Linux games here... but NONE of those require cd-check or online activation on startup for single player game... some of those even have sources available(ID Software)


Actually Doom 3 did a cd key check, blocking the port with the router allowed you to continue on though.

Also neverwinter nights did a cd check on any of the premium addons

[b15hop]

Haha I never bought doom 3.

[deanjo]

2K drops DRM on Bioshock

Little Sisters roam free

By Wily Ferret (http://www.theinquirer.net/articles/flameAuthor/gb/inquirer/news/2008/06/23/2k-drops-drm-bioshock): Monday, 23 June 2008, 9:32 AM


ANOTHER NAIL HITS THE DRM coffin today, as 2K Games announces that it's droping the DRM from its PC best-seller, Bioshock.
Released to critical acclaim last year, the only serious problem with Bioshock was the fact that the PC DRM on the disc was a real pain to deal with. Limiting users to three installations - and with problems dealing with upgrades and uninstalls - the biggest problem was the fact that the DRM activation was handled server side. With the game's huge popularity on release, the servers went down - leaving thousands of legit purchasers without the ability to play the game.
Now Bioshock has been on the market for a while, 2K has decided that the hassle of maintaining the server is more than it's worth to prevent copying - especially since there are plenty of hacks on the net available for download which bypass the activation, thus making the entire endeavour rather pointless.
No word on whether 2K plans to implement the DRM in future titles, or if this is one software annoyance we can finally label 'done'.


Someone is getting the message........

2K Elizabeth (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/member.php?u=2) http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif
2K Community Manager
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Novato, CA
Posts: 1,452


http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif Activation limits removed on BioShock for the PC
Good news! As promised, all activation restrictions, including install limits, have been removed from BioShock PC as of today. You don’t have to patch or install anything for this to go into effect for your copy of BioShock – it’s already done!

Enjoy your time in Rapture, and thank you for supporting BioShock and the 2K teams.

[stan.distortion]

Good news about bioshock, so when are we getting a linux port? ;)
Just a thought on LGP, if you have to have protection why not make it a feature? Games like X3 are still playable even if you are limited to a section of the universe, how about a series of keys to progress further through the game for, say, $5 each. To finish the game you will still need to pay the full price but if you only pay $10 you still get a good (but limited) game.
Could go further with rewards for various tasks in the game so if someone wants to play for 100 hours on an area most folks would be bored with after 20 then they can get to the next area for free.
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here, just some pre-coffee madness :)
cheers

[Licaon]

2K drops DRM on Bioshock
no, they did not (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1723)


stop focussing on reducing piracy and start focussing on improving sales. They are MOST DEFINETELY not the same thing. One gives you direct revenue, the other doesn't.seen on another forum (http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24776&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25)