Which gfx card with 3D acceleration to buy?

[oblidor]

Hi. I didn't find a forum for gfx cards in general, so hope there is not only ATI fans reading this one ;)

I'm going to build a computer and I want a good gfx card where 3D accel is working in Linux. (will use the PC for some games in Windows so therefore a good gfx) In my old machine I upgraded from Radeon 7500 to x1650 Pro, but actually it was a downgrade. Everything is more problematic. Watching DVDs are lagging and pixelated. Google earth is extremely slow with the x1650 and the closed source drivers are not working (fglrx gives black screen and system lockup).

So which is better choice NVIDIA or ATI? My mind was set on a 8800 GT or 9800 GT, but as I see that ATI is now supporting Linux I'm wondering about a Radeon HD 4850. Which cards will give me 3D? Not necessarily today, but sometime before end of the year... :)

EDIT: Of course now I saw that there is a gfx card forum and that I'm in the xorg forum. Sorry!

[Kano]

Well as Nvidia disabled some features in the 8800 GTS 512 maybe get 9800 GTX(+). The G92 chip is really fast, surely faster than 4850.

[d2kx]

No. And it (RV770) will only get faster with every driver update. Even if it *was* slower, it is cheaper.

[Kano]

I did not say that the 9800 is cheaper, it is just a much better buy.

[oblidor]

Well as Nvidia disabled some features in the 8800 GTS 512 maybe get 9800 GTX(+). The G92 chip is really fast, surely faster than 4850.

I see. So 9800 has 3D in linux?

[d2kx]

I was talking about "The G92 chip is really fast, surely faster than 4850.", not about the driver or anything else. You know, let's wait for tomorrow.

[deanjo]

I see. So 9800 has 3D in linux?

Yes it does, all the Nvidia cards do.

[Dandel]

Hi. I didn't find a forum for gfx cards in general, so hope there is not only ATI fans reading this one ;)

I'm going to build a computer and I want a good gfx card where 3D accel is working in Linux. (will use the PC for some games in Windows so therefore a good gfx) In my old machine I upgraded from Radeon 7500 to x1650 Pro, but actually it was a downgrade. Everything is more problematic. Watching DVDs are lagging and pixelated. Google earth is extremely slow with the x1650 and the closed source drivers are not working (fglrx gives black screen and system lockup).

So which is better choice NVIDIA or ATI? My mind was set on a 8800 GT or 9800 GT, but as I see that ATI is now supporting Linux I'm wondering about a Radeon HD 4850. Which cards will give me 3D? Not necessarily today, but sometime before end of the year... :)

EDIT: Of course now I saw that there is a gfx card forum and that I'm in the xorg forum. Sorry!
I read your post, and it appears that the issue can be resolved by answering a few questions, and providing a little bit of information about the computer...

Which Linux Distribution are you using.
what driver version are you using, and how did you install it.
what is the general system spec ( like is the video card AGP or PCI express )
can you provide a copy of the xorg config file and xorg log file.
Does the system log file specify that a soft lockup occured?


Note: i believe it'd be better to first try to fix the issue of the system lockups and crashes first, before looking at buying a new parts.

[oblidor]

I read your post, and it appears that the issue can be resolved by answering a few questions, and providing a little bit of information about the computer...

Which Linux Distribution are you using.
what driver version are you using, and how did you install it.
what is the general system spec ( like is the video card AGP or PCI express )
can you provide a copy of the xorg config file and xorg log file.
Does the system log file specify that a soft lockup occured?


Note: i believe it'd be better to first try to fix the issue of the system lockups and crashes first, before looking at buying a new parts.


Ubuntu 8.04 and Debian unstable (switched to Ubuntu just two days ago. Used Debian for 10 years)
Radeonhd after trying fglrx. fglrx I tried from debian package and ATI package in Debian. In ubuntu I tried restricted fglrx pacakge. No luck
AGP card (8x) Asus A7V8X-X mobo, 1.7Gb Ram, Corsair 650W PSU (temporarily will go to a new computer), AMD Athlon XP 2400+, LG 1440x900 LCD (is the widescreen a sore point for the driver?)
xorg.conf I have tried to change from empty to more advanced, but I can try again with fglrx and send it. I used the aticonfig tool. xorg log files I cannot because when fglrx crashes teh system nothing gets written to the log files. It really crashes the machie I have to hit reset button
I'll check but I dont think anything gets written to system log either.


Not buying new part for the old computer. I'll put back the Radeon 7500 if all fails. I'll build a completely new computer because I need more CPU power. But I want to keep my old as a second computer. Currently I have a 166MHz (from 1994!!!) as 2nd computer running debian with wmii and vim. Very nice for not getting distracted by bells and whistles ;)

[bridgman]

If you are running with an X1650 AGP you may be happiest with the -ati (aka radeon) driver today, assuming that you feel up to building the entire stack - the x driver (-ati), drm, mesa and x server. Ubuntu 8.04 is pretty new but not quite new enough to get full 5xx open source support.

I imagine you were using the -ati driver with the 7500 ?

[oblidor]

If you are running with an X1650 AGP you may be happiest with the -ati (aka radeon) driver today, assuming that you feel up to building the entire stack - the x driver (-ati), drm, mesa and x server. Ubuntu 8.04 is pretty new but not quite new enough to get full 5xx open source support.

I imagine you were using the -ati driver with the 7500 ?

Yes. And 7500 outperforms the x1650. It was supposed to be an upgrade not downgrade :( I'll try the ati driver, but if it is still just crap I'll reinstall the 7500 and get one fan less in the computer.

Is there any easy way to do the building in ubuntu?

[bridgman]

That doesn't sound right. Both cards have 128-bit memory buses, the 1650 has faster clocks, and the 1650 is 4 pipe vs. 2 pipe for the 7500. It's not quite that simple of course (a 7500 can do 3 textures per pipe per clock, for example) but on balance I think the 1650 should still be noticeably faster.

[Dandel]

That doesn't sound right. Both cards have 128-bit memory buses, the 1650 has faster clocks, and the 1650 is 4 pipe vs. 2 pipe for the 7500. It's not quite that simple of course (a 7500 can do 3 textures per pipe per clock, for example) but on balance I think the 1650 should still be noticeably faster.


Yes, i agree with you on this... i think there is another problem that is not diagnosed.

Yes. And 7500 outperforms the x1650. It was supposed to be an upgrade not downgrade :( I'll try the ati driver, but if it is still just crap I'll reinstall the 7500 and get one fan less in the computer.

Is there any easy way to do the building in ubuntu?

yes, if you go to the wiki pages (http://wiki.cchtml.com/) for installing the driver. and will you please reply to my previous post, because it will be key in speeding up the x1650's performance... the performance problems could be that you are not running the fglrx driver, and other factors also play a role in this.

[oblidor]

That doesn't sound right. Both cards have 128-bit memory buses, the 1650 has faster clocks, and the 1650 is 4 pipe vs. 2 pipe for the 7500. It's not quite that simple of course (a 7500 can do 3 textures per pipe per clock, for example) but on balance I think the 1650 should still be noticeably faster.

Not hardware-wise, but due to that the driver is bad. When I look at a DVD with x1650 it looks similar to if you look at scaled graphics that is not antialiased. It has large jagged lines on contours. It also lags while playing the DVD. This never happened with my 7500 so it must be driver problems. I tried the xserver-xgl. This solved the antialias problem, but was extremely slow.

[oblidor]

Ubuntu 8.04 and Debian unstable (switched to Ubuntu just two days ago. Used Debian for 10 years)
Radeonhd after trying fglrx. fglrx I tried from debian package and ATI package in Debian. In ubuntu I tried restricted fglrx pacakge. No luck
AGP card (8x) Asus A7V8X-X mobo, 1.7Gb Ram, Corsair 650W PSU (temporarily will go to a new computer), AMD Athlon XP 2400+, LG 1440x900 LCD (is the widescreen a sore point for the driver?)
xorg.conf I have tried to change from empty to more advanced, but I can try again with fglrx and send it. I used the aticonfig tool. xorg log files I cannot because when fglrx crashes teh system nothing gets written to the log files. It really crashes the machie I have to hit reset button
I'll check but I dont think anything gets written to system log either.



Here is the syslog when I started the machine with fglrx:

http://pastebin.com/m35b9271e

Here is xorg.conf

http://pastebin.com/m12927fbb

No Xorg.0.log file is generated.

If I use the ati/radeonhd driver running vlc watching a DVD will result in 50-60% load of Xorg and ~30% load of vlc.

Here is syslog when using radeon:

http://pastebin.com/m76bbc1c9

and Xorg.0.log

http://pastebin.com/m583b6d7f

and Xorg.0.log for the ati driver:

http://pastebin.com/m3a547853

Xorg.conf is the same for the radeonhd and ati as with fglrx. Only difference is that I change the driver to radeonhd or ati.

[bridgman]

OK, I think I see what's happening here. The drm initialization is failing, so most of the acceleration code is not running.

You're using the drivers from Debian/Ubuntu packages, right ? Right now the distro packages are all too old to properly support a 5xx card, with the sole (AFAIK) exception of updates-testing for Fedora 9. That should change over the next couple of months; it's just that significant 5xx support only really finished a few weeks ago.

You're either going to need to build the drivers from source, or the "edgers" packages might work for you. User "tormod" had been helping folks get those running, apparently with pretty good success.

You'll need the radeon (aka -ati) driver, drm, mesa from master plus a very recent x server. If it's only the other recent mesa changes which require a new x server then I'm thinking we should try to back port the 5xx support into an older version of mesa which would work with older xservers, making life a lot easier for the distros to provide upgrade packages.

[oblidor]

OK, I think I see what's happening here. The drm initialization is failing, so most of the acceleration code is not running.

You're using the drivers from Debian/Ubuntu packages, right ? Right now the distro packages are all too old to properly support a 5xx card, with the sole (AFAIK) exception of updates-testing for Fedora 9. That should change over the next couple of months; it's just that significant 5xx support only really finished a few weeks ago.

You're either going to need to build the drivers from source, or the "edgers" packages might work for you. User "tormod" had been helping folks get those running, apparently with pretty good success.

You'll need the radeon (aka -ati) driver, drm, mesa from master plus a very recent x server. If it's only the other recent mesa changes which require a new x server then I'm thinking we should try to back port the 5xx support into an older version of mesa which would work with older xservers, making life a lot easier for the distros to provide upgrade packages.

I also tried now the fglrx from ATI according to the wiki recipe, but no luck.

I see. So when the drm is working it will solve the problem and I don't get the 50-60% CPU load of xorg while watching a DVD? Edgers is like Debian unstable for Ubuntu?

[bridgman]

When drm is working it will definitely change performance and CPU load. I don't know much about edgers (I had to search on Google to find out what it was ;)) but it appears to be a build & packaging service that runs directly off the git masters rather than specific releases.

Here is tormod's guide :

http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33622&postcount=23

[oblidor]

When drm is working it will definitely change performance and CPU load. I don't know much about edgers (I had to search on Google to find out what it was ;)) but it appears to be a build & packaging service that runs directly off the git masters rather than specific releases.

Here is tormod's guide :

http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33622&postcount=23

I tried the live CD trick. compiz seem to work. However I cannot check any DVDs because totem and ogle crashes with a BadAlloc. looking at a video at youtube with adobe flash again makes Xorg use 50% CPU. So it seems the new ati driver is improving the situation, but is still to unstable... I think I'll have to wait for it to become more stable... :(

[oblidor]

I tried the live CD trick. compiz seem to work. However I cannot check any DVDs because totem and ogle crashes with a BadAlloc. looking at a video at youtube with adobe flash again makes Xorg use 50% CPU. So it seems the new ati driver is improving the situation, but is still to unstable... I think I'll have to wait for it to become more stable... :(

Got it to work!!!! :D Adding the Option "EXA" to xorg.conf solved it. I hadn't seen that note...

Now I have to test it in the real system...

[bridgman]

Hmmm. Maybe I'll try the live CD myself. Thanks !!

[oblidor]

Hmmm. Maybe I'll try the live CD myself. Thanks !!

I upgraded ubuntu (after the dvd install 8.04) and then ran the hacked script again. I know I shouldn't but didn't bother to do all the steps in the wiki. Everything works like a charm! :D

I noticed that compiz wasn't activated in xfce4 so I ran it from a terminal and now I get all kinds of effects lightening fast. I also get real video playback and little Xorg CPU consumption.

Thanks a great deal to all that helped me here !!!

This brings back some faith in ATI cards. I just hope that they keep on supporting open source driver development for their high end cards (and improve the performance of the hardware of course ;-) )

I'll be building another machine for somebody else with a 8500 GT card. From this I'll get some more experience with the NVIDIA so I can judge better if ATI or NVIDIA is the way to go. I'll report back!