Put the wish list for porting projects HERE...

[RobbieAB]

OK, I've looked a bit closer, it seems they were involved in the European version a few years ago.

I am just hoping that if anything comes out of Svartalfs consideration of the EU game engine from Paradox comes to anything, we would be better placed to talk to them for other titles if it sells. Hence if Paradox were involved, it would make life so much easier... :)

[Aradreth]

Offset Software (the developers) were bought buy Intel. AFAIK, they still exists as-is and are making it.. they're just owned by Intel now. Project Offset is definitely a game and not a tech demo, that much is certain (at least in-so-far as Doom3 was a game, too).
I actually thought Doom3 wasn't a bad game on the whole even if towards the end it got a bit repetitive.

When I say tech-demo I don't mean a 30min play time like the Physx tech demo (can't remember the name) it probably will have 5+ hours of game play but all the effort will have gone into showing of the Larrabee (which is being released at roughly the same time as Project Offset) so gameplay/story will be lacking compared to a normal title.

[SenkradLuna]

Gothic 1 & 2. I have played these and would buy them again.

Castle Infinity http://www.castleinfinity.org/ I have made some inquiries with them and they seemed open at the time but this was about a year ago. They own the code, written in .net iirc. It is a really fun game.

They distribute it for free but I would buy a copy if it ran on linux. Or could even be a good full demo game to distribute as an intro to your efforts or LGP.

[xav1r]

Dont know if you know about this, but Apogee software has been brought back. Its a fully independent division of 3dr, but i dont really understand how it all works. Not even the employees know actually. :D Anyways, they probably would be interested in having their classic apogee catalog ported to linux. :)

[Kano]

You can simply use DOSBOX for those.

[SenkradLuna]

You can simply use DOSBOX for those.

By having games run "natively" it improves the user experience. As this is a point about perception I suppose that if dosbox is relatively small with some script-fu it might be able to be added as a preloader or set up as a portal application.

By making a bundle dvd with nice api that launches the games without the need to install a program it would add value. I used to buy magazines for the demo/free software when I used windows. I would gladly pay £5 for a DVD with games that I would not have to fight with to play, the complexity of the games is not important just the playability. I might even pay £10.

[curaga]

DOSBOX won't let us have full resolution and other native extras :)

BTW I found this link, Mountain King had ported Raptor to linux in 2000:
http://www.linuxgames.com/archives/2722

I can't locate this demo version anywhere, and user experiences from the game itself say it was slow, and didn't look good. So a more optimized port with some good 2d filters or new artwork would be nice.

[xav1r]

I just thought about something. The biggest hurdle to getting big name games under linux is money, right? Game companies would demand many figures in exchange for a port. What if we get someone that has enough $$$ to get them to have their secretaries email back? I was thinking, maybe someone like Mark Shuttleworth, the ubuntu guy. He's got the cash, and he would probably be interested in getting more games run natively in linux, as a way to increase it global outreach. What do you think? And he's not difficult to contact.

[Kano]

Maybe you did not know that Steam is using DOSBOX with a preloader that needs online access for those old DOS games you can buy with it...

[Svartalf]

You can simply use DOSBOX for those.

DOSBox doesn't provide Polymost, which improves on the game (it does, it does...). Also worth noting, DOSBox doesn't really work nicely on non x86 platforms. There's a few of them coming up that run Linux and run against a Cortex-A8 ARM core.

[RobbieAB]

DOSBox doesn't provide Polymost, which improves on the game (it does, it does...). Also worth noting, DOSBox doesn't really work nicely on non x86 platforms. There's a few of them coming up that run Linux and run against a Cortex-A8 ARM core.
And a native x86 linux binary would run any nicer on an ARM core? :p

[Chris]

You can simply use DOSBOX for those.
Also to note it's difficult to set up DOSBox so that it properly runs a given game. Not all games had good speed-limitting, and relied on slow CPUs.. some games needing faster CPUs than others, and some games needing slower CPUs than others. Plus, emulate too fast and not even "good" CPUs can keep up. Emulate too slow, and the game won't get enough. DOSBox itself apparently doesn't properly emulate an x86 system either, so some computations that should be slower aren't, and vice-versa.

[Svartalf]

And a native x86 linux binary would run any nicer on an ARM core? :p

It wouldn't- I think that was the point I was making about DOSBox emulation... I'll talk with them shortly about things. :D

[xav1r]

I got this email from bohemain interactive today:

Hi :

Thank you, but unfortunately we don´t plan any Linux versions of our games.

Best Regards,
Jiri Jakubec
IDEA Games


Well, at least they were kind enough to reply.

[Vadi]

Codemasters 'GRID' racing game should be easy to port too. It has ogg and vorbis .dlls and uses opengl from what I understand (wine complained I 'lack' shaders 3.0)

[me262]

Codemasters 'GRID' racing game should be easy to port too. It has ogg and vorbis .dlls and uses opengl from what I understand (wine complained I 'lack' shaders 3.0)
Ohhh. now THAT I will buy if they have a Linux version... I was impressed with the gameplay trailer (still have it too).
I may download the demo when I get my Gentoo box up and running again and check if I can specify -opengl on the command line and do that...

I also have good news on the FASA Studios front.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FASA_Interactive

Turns out MS sold the rights back to FASA, so any of the Mechwarrior Series (Mechwarrior 4 - Mercenaries please) is possible, maybe even Shadowrun. I think we could convince FASA to have them ported... using wine or a Cedega layer to translate DX to OGL.
And that would just be the ULTIMATE stick to MS too...
And both of those, I will buy... here comes my 2nd copy of MW4-Mercs!

[xav1r]

Svartalf, got any leads on any of these many games being suggested lately? I miss your input in this great thread. :)

[Svartalf]

Svartalf, got any leads on any of these many games being suggested lately? I miss your input in this great thread. :)

So far, the Europa Universalis engine is a front-runner. NDA looks reasonable (but I need to re-read my contract with LGP to make sure I'm not breaching things...). If it's good on all sides, I'll contact them to make sure they're still okay with a couple of people working on that project and then sign NDAs if that's the case so we can start work on that and maybe see the foot in the door for EU3 and other titles they have access to either as publisher or as the studio.

Haven't had a chance to re-ping Lead Pursuit for Falcon 4; will chase that rabbit better next week once things slow down enough at the Earl household to do so.

Also going to go talk with 3D Realms/Apogee about a possible remix of the old titles for publication on Linux for x86 and Pandora (yes...) in a week or two. Not QUITE sure where that one will lead.

Other than that, I'm thinking perhaps talking with CD Projekt about Good Old Games (Since they're the publisher in that case...) and see what they might think about doing a Linux spin of those titles as well as the Windows remixes.

[Svartalf]

Turns out MS sold the rights back to FASA, so any of the Mechwarrior Series (Mechwarrior 4 - Mercenaries please) is possible, maybe even Shadowrun. I think we could convince FASA to have them ported... using wine or a Cedega layer to translate DX to OGL.
And that would just be the ULTIMATE stick to MS too...
And both of those, I will buy... here comes my 2nd copy of MW4-Mercs!

You'd have to use Cedega. WINE relies on DX9 to provide part of the DX layer code to play things. I'm none too keen on that, the truth be known on the matter. I would think talking to them about making it more cross platform, perhaps to let them target the console market with some of their stuff, would be a better play.

[krzta]

So far, the Europa Universalis engine is a front-runner.
Nice! I would buy that one FOR SURE. Haven't Runesoft ported it to MAC recently?

Other than that, I'm thinking perhaps talking with CD Projekt about Good Old Games (Since they're the publisher in that case...) and see what they might think about doing a Linux spin of those titles as well as the Windows remixes.

CD Projekt? You mean those Poles? I used to know some guys working there...(yeah, I'm a Pole too)

[RobbieAB]

Nice! I would buy that one FOR SURE. Haven't Runesoft ported it to MAC recently?

A couple of years ago, and IIRC, they were lacking the most recent expansion for HOI2. Plus it was only ever a MacOS release with no linux release.

[Svartalf]

CD Projekt? You mean those Poles? I used to know some guys working there...(yeah, I'm a Pole too)

Yes, those Poles. If I've read it right GoG happens to be a venture of theirs. If so, we, the community, would like to talk w/them regarding a Linux remix version of the titles they have rights to. You say you "used" to know some of them...would you still be able to talk w/them and ask them what they think on the subject?

[xav1r]

Great to hear about your possible titles.

Well, since I didnt want this effort to just stop, i did a quick lookup search on the us office of copyright records, looked up "witchaven" and came up with this:

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=witchaven&Search_Code=TALL&PID=kaHmITv0Ce7kbSi5X9QpfmcbBqp&SEQ=20080718225744&CNT=25&HIST=1

Under Copyright Claimant is said Intracorp Entertaintment.

So, apparently the defunct intracorp entertaintment is the owner of the rights. What does that mean in real life terms? Anyone knows?

[me262]

Probably died with the company.
If a programmer has a copy of the source maybe we could tweak it. However unlikely.

Too bad about MW4 too. Seems like a lot of MS games use only that technology.
Notice how MS is the only one with faith in their hardware and software. While the PS3 and Wii use OpenGL derivatives IIRC.

Maybe when I'm done with school I'll probably talk to Smith & Tinker about a new Battletech game then...

[Svartalf]

Probably died with the company.
If a programmer has a copy of the source maybe we could tweak it. However unlikely.


We have a programmer who had the source code in his stuff- he even offers it for download, stating he doesn't know who has the rights at this time... We just need to find a determination as to what happens in this specific case- what happens when a corporate entity dies in a Chapter 7 and nobody takes on the works for hire done by the employees?

[me262]

That would set a really interesting precedent if this works then.
If a software company dies and it's assets aren't bought, then the employees are free to do with the source code as they please.

... wonder if that could tie in with that story about Black9 you posted...

[krzta]

You say you "used" to know some of them...would you still be able to talk w/them and ask them what they think on the subject?

It was long ago and it was much different company back then, but who knows, maybe some of them are still there... I'll try to find out.

[xav1r]

We have a programmer who had the source code in his stuff- he even offers it for download, stating he doesn't know who has the rights at this time... We just need to find a determination as to what happens in this specific case- what happens when a corporate entity dies in a Chapter 7 and nobody takes on the works for hire done by the employees?

Where could we find out that determination? The US office of Copyright Records? Somewhere else? Does anyone have any ideas?

[me262]

I'm thinking either a copyright lawyer (BLAM!) or a bankruptcy lawyer (BLAM!).
(Tagon shot those drones, we'll need another lawyer. Thank you Svartalf for turning me onto the Schlock Mercenary webcomics. (Although nothing beats the sight of Schlock eating the lawyers and wearing the necktie (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20080315.html).))

[xav1r]

ok, i did some research, and found out a few tidbits of information. First, ip assets are treated like any other property during a bankruptcy trial to try to pay off creditors. Then, the owners of those rights can lose the rights to their assets if they dont keep registering their ip. Although i dont think that's 100% accurate, since IP usually expires like 70 years after the creator's death. Dont know whats in the case of companies. Under the Intellectual Property Bankruptcy Act in the usa, debtors cant just ignore license contracts with licensees, but i dont think that applies here. Games are sold, not licensed to, like business productivity programs. There are situations where the rights revert back to the employees that created the work, but only when there was a specific agreement on that. Î think we would need to find out if intracorp was in debt when they folded, and who they owed money to, and if IP rights were sold, or transfered to those creditors as payoff.

[me262]

ok, i did some research, and found out a few tidbits of information. First, ip assets are treated like any other property during a bankruptcy trial to try to pay off creditors. Then, the owners of those rights can lose the rights to their assets if they dont keep registering their ip. Although i dont think that's 100% accurate, since IP usually expires like 70 years after the creator's death. Dont know whats in the case of companies. Under the Intellectual Property Bankruptcy Act in the usa, debtors cant just ignore license contracts with licensees, but i dont think that applies here. Games are sold, not licensed to, like business productivity programs. There are situations where the rights revert back to the employees that created the work, but only when there was a specific agreement on that. Î think we would need to find out if intracorp was in debt when they folded, and who they owed money to, and if IP rights were sold, or transfered to those creditors as payoff.The whole point of a License Key is that you really have been licensed to use the product.
It's the same way with Windows, you don't buy it, you pay for the right to use it.
Businesses pay tons yearly for their software. In the case of my former job it was 10,000 a year for rental control software, and the company included the source code with it.
IP really does need to be overhauled here in the US... 70 years is too long for software the rate it's going. IIRC this is the same way with getting photos at a studio, although no one realizes it.

[Chris]

The whole point of a License Key is that you really have been licensed to use the product.
It's the same way with Windows, you don't buy it, you pay for the right to use it.
Not all places treat it as such. In other countries, and even some places in the US, when you buy a product in the store, you buy it.. end of discussion. The piece of paper hidden in the box, or the text file that pops up on installation, that says otherwise is null and void. Just because they *say* you are a licensee doesn't mean you actually are.

Could you imagine if it wasn't? If you lost a Windows CD, you'd be liable for losing Microsoft's property. Or heck, if you just wanted to get rid of the CD, you can't. You can only send it back to where you got it from. And if it ever got damaged, you'd legally have to reimburse them for it.. after all, it wouldn't be your CD.

IP really does need to be overhauled here in the US... 70 years is too long for software the rate it's going.
It's only death+70 years for individuals (and Disney). For company-owned IPs, IIRC, there's a 20-year limit (which is still too long; MPEG-1 is still under the 20 year limit with its patents/IPs).

[RobbieAB]

Didn't AutoDesk lose a case on just that basis in New York recently?

The judge said that it didn't matter what AutoDesk claimed, the customer paid them money, and was handed a disk with software on it, as such it constituted a sale and not a licensing, so he could resell the disk if he wished. As AutoDesk weren't claiming he had tried to keep a copy of the software when he sold it on, they had no case in court against him for selling it on, even though it was "forbidden by the EULA".

[curaga]

Okay people, I managed to track down the Linux demo of Raptor :D

http://www.itnews.com.au/Download/16032,raptor-linux.aspx

Max resolution 640x480. It actually ran quite nice on my P3, no lags or anything in sight. Starting straight at "Veteran", nostalgic heaven :)

I had some trouble unpacking, it uses old command form for tail. And after changing it, checksum didn't match. So, just extract it manually:
tail -n +169 raptorshr.sh | tar xvz

It then needs libSDL-1.1 compiled, but after that runs great. If only it had higher res etc :p Svartalf, play some.

[xav1r]

So, regarding the former intracorp games, i think the most likely scenario is that intracorp "owns" the rights to those games on paper, but in reality no one does. They are in reality public domain. Unless intracorp owed money when they went boom and a court sold the rights to those games to their creditors, which is unlikely with intracorp. Can the court keep the IP rights of those games if they didnt sell it to someone else? Could that be the situation ? dont they have to transfer the ip ownership to someone eventually?

[Svartalf]

I'm thinking either a copyright lawyer (BLAM!) or a bankruptcy lawyer (BLAM!).
(Tagon shot those drones, we'll need another lawyer. Thank you Svartalf for turning me onto the Schlock Mercenary webcomics. (Although nothing beats the sight of Schlock eating the lawyers and wearing the necktie (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20080315.html).))

You only get to shoot Collective Drones- and only if you're a member of Tagon's Toughs (Since they're carrying out a Court ordered Sanction against the Partnership Collective for being extremely naughty Lawyers in the said Court...).

But I would think it might not be a bad idea to check into this further.

[Svartalf]

Î think we would need to find out if intracorp was in debt when they folded, and who they owed money to, and if IP rights were sold, or transfered to those creditors as payoff.

They were in a bankruptcy, from what I was able to gather from online scuttlebutt from people that were trying to do the same sorts of things we're trying right now but for MacOS instead- which means if they shuttered their doors, they went into a Chapter 7 situation at some point. Assets are not usually transferred to creditors but are usually sold and the proceeds are given to the creditors. Unless the creditors specifically ASK for the assets in question, they're sold in the aforementioned manner, and if they don't sell, I'm not wholly sure what happens to the assets. The company doesn't get to keep it. The Court doesn't keep it, doesn't WANT it, and it's my understanding they can't anyhow.

[xav1r]

They were in a bankruptcy, from what I was able to gather from online scuttlebutt from people that were trying to do the same sorts of things we're trying right now but for MacOS instead- which means if they shuttered their doors, they went into a Chapter 7 situation at some point. Assets are not usually transferred to creditors but are usually sold and the proceeds are given to the creditors. Unless the creditors specifically ASK for the assets in question, they're sold in the aforementioned manner, and if they don't sell, I'm not wholly sure what happens to the assets. The company doesn't get to keep it. The Court doesn't keep it, doesn't WANT it, and it's my understanding they can't anyhow.

So they are effectively public domain. Unless someone at intracorp had the rights transfered prior to the bankrupcty to someone outside the company, which didnt. The game's code and assets are there, in public domain limbo, waiting for a port to be done :D

[xav1r]

It's so silent here, you can hear a pindrop...

[RobbieAB]

Svartalf is busy I think, and without his occassional input...

[Svartalf]

Svartalf is busy I think, and without his occassional input...

Heh... Yeah, I'm a bit busy...swamped a bit is more like it. ;)

I should have some initial feedback on some things here shortly.

I need to talk with Paradox about EU2 and see if they're still okay with that- if so, it's a good start. I've finally gotten something in front of Lead Pursuit (I got an email address to send something to them...) but haven't heard back from them on Falcon 4.0. And, I've started the discussion, whether it goes anywhere or not, on one of the more serious naval combat sims out there.

[xav1r]

Great about those games, although they sound very niche games, catering to a tiny audience. Did you have any luck with raptor, powerslave, or witchaven :D

[me262]

Very nice Svartalf. Keep up the good work!

This ran through my head last night, why do we have to be limited to PC games?
I was looking at the trailer for Twisted Metal 4 on a PSM disc (going to test my PS3's disc drive with it when I get tomorrow), and I wondered if 989 Studios was still around (haven't heard any projects from them in a while).
The Sony and Nintendo consoles both run OpenGL, (hell, their executable format is linux!) so porting these should be easy.
So what console games could possibly be ported?
Games made by Sony and Nintendo are automatically out. So are games "exclusive" to the platform.

[Svartalf]

Very nice Svartalf. Keep up the good work!

This ran through my head last night, why do we have to be limited to PC games?
I was looking at the trailer for Twisted Metal 4 on a PSM disc (going to test my PS3's disc drive with it when I get tomorrow), and I wondered if 989 Studios was still around (haven't heard any projects from them in a while).
The Sony and Nintendo consoles both run OpenGL, (hell, their executable format is linux!) so porting these should be easy.
So what console games could possibly be ported?
Games made by Sony and Nintendo are automatically out. So are games "exclusive" to the platform.

The main reason for console ports mostly being out of the question is that we've got to establish ourselves first to be considered a target by most of the players targeting consoles. The console titles are mostly published by orgs like Vivendi and EA (which goes back to discussions of why those are "maybe" at best...)- and in some cases they're console exclusives. Unless the place is an indie and keeping it's rights to platforms other than the consoles to itself, it's not going to be happening right now.

[Svartalf]

Great about those games, although they sound very niche games, catering to a tiny audience. Did you have any luck with raptor, powerslave, or witchaven :D

Niche they may be, but one might gain attaboys with the Naval Sim in a way that might resurrect a certain game for Linux. Moreover, they're the ones giving me the time of day right now- start with what you've got. Re: Raptor, Powerslave, Witchaven...

Raptor: Once things slow a little bit next week, I'll get in touch with Mountain King and see what they have to say.

Powerslave: Wasn't a Capstone title, though it was published by InterCorp. Find me a studio and I suspect we could have a remix.

Witchaven: IP doesn't typically GO Public Domain the way it was implied; if the company dies, SOMEONE gets the rights if at all possible until there's nobody "heirs"-wise, etc. hand them to. Either someone bought it or it devolved to someone OTHER than the owners if they Chapter 7'ed. There's a path to who owns the rights and we've got to find it before we start on things with that one.

[me262]

A "chain of command" as it were.
A chain that we go get and beat 'em with until we understand who's in ruttin' command. :D

[RobbieAB]

Great about those games, although they sound very niche games, catering to a tiny audience.
Further to Svartalfs comments, what is the objective here? I thought a part of the priority was to generate sales figures for games with a low margin of entry. For this, "niche" games may actually be better than AAA titles, because most niche games fit into the category of "Games People Buy". 10k sales for a AAA title is peanuts, 5k sales figures for a niche game is a coup. 10k sales for a big companies is irrelevant financially, 5k sales for a small one might be a major payday.

If the objective is to get taken seriously, the trick is to win smaller, self-publishing studios, over to the idea that there is a market for Linux games. If you can then demonstrate that it won't cost them much to produce for Linux and Windows at the same time, you set-up a range of niche games that will thrive on the Linux platform. A thriving community of niche games on Linux is a better case for Linux games than any other argument you can make, and those same games are the ones that are probably cheap or free to get at.

In other words: Pick a fight you can win!

[RealNC]

FlatOut 2. Developed and published by Empire Interactive, distributed by Vivendi (Sierra) :P

[Svartalf]

FlatOut 2. Developed and published by Empire Interactive, distributed by Vivendi (Sierra) :P

Hm... I'm going to lump that in the "maybe" category for right now. Anything published to console is going to be a difficult play unless they're Linux friendly. VU's got their hands in that pie which means they've probably got some say in what does/doesn't get done with those titles. I'll check into it- I'm just not going to have high hopes like I do with what's shaping up right now.

[me262]

Wondering if in the flood of posts this one was missed.
Soldat
http://www.soldat.pl/main.php
A 2D shooter.

It is free to play, although I think you need a registration code for more advanced features.
It has community support with wine, so I don't know if they'd be willing to have it ported.

It would be a nice one to warm up with.

[Dosfish]

what about bigfishgames games? I know it would make my girlfriend happy, which in turn would make me happy ;-) battlerealms from liquid entertainment published by ubisoft might be a possibility, I'm sure liquid would be open to it since it won the best game noone played award a few years ago so a new and loyal fanbase would be a plus for them.

[curaga]

FlatOut 2. Developed and published by Empire Interactive, distributed by Vivendi (Sierra) :PWhoa? No, it's still Bugbear's title. And has a windows version..

[Svartalf]

Whoa? No, it's still Bugbear's title. And has a windows version..

Remember my comments...

Just because a studio still makes something does not lead to them having control over publication rights. Many times, in order to get a publishing deal, they assign publication rights for a given title or range thereof to the publisher. Chances are, Empire's the one who has final say on a Linux version of anything out of the FlatOut franchise.

It won't hurt to talk to Bugbear and if you know someone with a bit of access to them to ask, by all means ask 'em to do so. It'll be a bit before I can get to asking them myself (It's on the list and is a bit more promising than some of the "maybe" items on the current list...).

[Svartalf]

Wondering if in the flood of posts this one was missed.

Yeah, it slipped through the cracks... Soldat's on the "getting checked into" list... :D

[Svartalf]

The list has been recently updated to reflect the current state of affairs. You can look at what we've got going right now here (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=36588&postcount=1). The position of the titles "being looked into" are relative to their current status. EU's engine is likely to happen at this point and is at the top of the list. The rest is obvious. ;)

[Svartalf]

what about bigfishgames games? I know it would make my girlfriend happy, which in turn would make me happy ;-)

Perhaps. Casual games are a big, big thing. I could sit and spin my wheels on the casual stuff, though, and not get as much initial traction as I would with some of what we've got in the mill. I am getting stretched a bit thin on this and a couple of other projects of mine and it's beginning to show. I'm digging in and making it all happen for what I've already signed up for and about to- but right now, doing the casual game stuff's going to be a bit over the top. Might revisit it later as I'm serious about the "trying to expand the overall catalog of Linux game titles" line I've been telling people now for a while.


battlerealms from liquid entertainment published by ubisoft might be a possibility, I'm sure liquid would be open to it since it won the best game noone played award a few years ago so a new and loyal fanbase would be a plus for them.

Actually, you'll have an uphill battle with that one. You are thinking in terms of being rational about the title in question. Ubisoft, however, is going to have AAA title IP stars in their eyes and they're liable to want big bucks for the rights to produce a Linux version of anything they have in hand. It takes some deft negotiation, a friend of a friend deal, someone favoring Linux and doing the "right thing", or LOTS of cash to score AAA content.

Having said this, though, it's worth checking into... :D

[Naib]

DawnOfWar + expansions

This series rocks!!! sure DarkCrusade was a bit imba and a techrush but fun non the less

They all work really well under WINE (soulstorm needs a noCD crack since the gits added some BS DRM... lasted long didn't it)

DoW2 is due out next year

[Svartalf]

DawnOfWar + expansions

This series rocks!!! sure DarkCrusade was a bit imba and a techrush but fun non the less

They all work really well under WINE (soulstorm needs a noCD crack since the gits added some BS DRM... lasted long didn't it)

DoW2 is due out next year

It's a "maybe"- until we (The Linux Community) get taken a little more seriously, we're very likely to not get given the time of day by THQ. Now, if you know someone over at THQ or at Relic that could grease the way into getting a sweetheart deal on it... ;)

[To everyone reading this thread...]

As a reminder to everyone, if it's a AAA title, unless you KNOW somone in the studio or the publisher and can sweet-talk the lot of them out of the insane royalties that they typically ask for or can sweet-talk 'em out of an unofficial Linux client, you can ask, but you will get told "maybe" at best. A title like DoW/DoW2 will set you back $20-50k, possibly more, just to have the privilege of having a shot at making a port. A title like UT3 or Rage will set you back somewhere in the six figures for the same. And, this presumes they will even give you the time of day- they may think you're wasting their time or they have contracts that lock in the deal to Windows/PS3/etc.

[xav1r]

It's a "maybe"- until we (The Linux Community) get taken a little more seriously, we're very likely to not get given the time of day by THQ. Now, if you know someone over at THQ or at Relic that could grease the way into getting a sweetheart deal on it... ;)

[To everyone reading this thread...]

As a reminder to everyone, if it's a AAA title, unless you KNOW somone in the studio or the publisher and can sweet-talk the lot of them out of the insane royalties that they typically ask for or can sweet-talk 'em out of an unofficial Linux client, you can ask, but you will get told "maybe" at best. A title like DoW/DoW2 will set you back $20-50k, possibly more, just to have the privilege of having a shot at making a port. A title like UT3 or Rage will set you back somewhere in the six figures for the same. And, this presumes they will even give you the time of day- they may think you're wasting their time or they have contracts that lock in the deal to Windows/PS3/etc.

hey, over here! yea you! witchaven wont cost ya a thing. ;)

[Svartalf]

hey, over here! yea you! witchaven wont cost ya a thing. ;)

Uh... I think we made this clear.

Willful copyright infringement can cost as much as $150k per instance in punitive damages in the States- there is no "oops, sorry" and get away with stopping unless the rights holder LETS you get off that way.

Unless you can find me (or I can find) the current rights holder (It did NOT go into the Public Domain- the only way something goes there is with an explicit written statement from the rights holder or the rights term expires, whichever comes first. Since this did NOT happen in either case...) any attempt to revive the games for which Les Bird has provided source code to (Technically, unless he's the rights holder, he's guilty of willful infringement as well...think about it.) will constitute willful infringement of the rights of whomever actually DOES hold the Copyrights.

Please, I know you're partly kidding here, but I'm dead serious about this. If anyone goes and does the work without what I've been trying to get in hand, permission from the rights holder, they will be on their own.

Any further commentary about, "there's this game and we've source and all and can port it", with regards to Witchaven, Witchaven II, TekWar, or similar, without having a clear and concise rights grant to those titles is a closed subject because of the aforementioned problem. Please, don't bring it up again unless you can find me a release to Public Domain or a rights grant from the rights holder that owns those titles (and there still IS one...) as I will NOT be entering into acts that willfully infringe someone's Copyright in this manner.

If you're thinking long and hard about it, you won't want to either.

[Alecz]

http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=d3-general&t=299&p=1&#post299

more posts needed, k10xby :D

I think they delete "Linux related" posts. The link you gave points to nothing.:(

[me262]

B.Net forums appear to be down as of my timestamp. Give it a day or two.

Bluebtye re-released the Settlers II as the 10th anniversary edition not too long ago, maybe a year.
Think that may be an avenue to persue? I mean, Widelands is great and all, but the music of the Settlers II still haunts me to this day. ^_^

Also, a note you should put in the first post on the thread:
The mentioned game should be able to use OpenGL. DirectX is not available on Linux and would be a pain to port, as such, games that rely exclusively on DirectX are not feasible.

[Thetargos]

Also, a note you should put in the first post on the thread:
The mentioned game should be able to use OpenGL. DirectX is not available on Linux and would be a pain to port, as such, games that rely exclusively on DirectX are not feasible.

I wouldn't put it that way entirely... If the engine can be ported (take for instance the LithTek engine), it wouldn't matter. BUT it would involve much more work to do the porting as the engine itself would have to be ported first.

[Svartalf]

Bluebtye re-released the Settlers II as the 10th anniversary edition not too long ago, maybe a year.
Think that may be an avenue to persue? I mean, Widelands is great and all, but the music of the Settlers II still haunts me to this day. ^_^

Heh... I'll check into it here in a bit.


Also, a note you should put in the first post on the thread:
The mentioned game should be able to use OpenGL. DirectX is not available on Linux and would be a pain to port, as such, games that rely exclusively on DirectX are not feasible.

That is inaccurate. I've done Ballistics. I'm finishing up Bandits. BOTH were DirectX only titles. The only drawback to making them Linux titles was that we don't have wireline network support with them as there's no reverse engineered piece there in the FOSS community yet. If a title uses DirectPlay, you can't even run it under WINE (Not sure about Cedega or CrossOver) without first installing DirectX 9c under it first.

If you migrate the Engine, you only have to contend with the game. If I had Lithtech 2.2 to be able to be ported, NOLF would be almost a cinch at that point with the above proviso.

[Alecz]

Someone suggested the Total War series (Turn-based Strategy, released for PC only!)

While they wanted the latest title Medieval 2, I really enjoy Rome:TW much more, and that's the only reason I have to dual-boot.

Anyhow, I believe Activision is the publisher, so I know it will not be ported :mad:.

On the other hand... it makes me sad we have to beg Publishers to release games for Linux or allow them to be ported. What do they have to lose anyway?

Then there's the issue of game availability. I was looking for Linux Version of id titles in local stores and their websites and I couldn't really find anything.

For example who sells QW:ET for Linux in Canada?

[ivanovic]

For example who sells QW:ET for Linux in Canada?

ETQW is basically a point-release. That is: You buy the Windows version and get the installer from id software to install it on Linux. If you really want to make sure that it is counted as "Linux sale", buy it at one of the "store for Linux software" like tuxgames.com. Though they will basically send you the same box, maybe with an extra disc for the point installer. There is no separate Linux box.

[Svartalf]

On the other hand... it makes me sad we have to beg Publishers to release games for Linux or allow them to be ported. What do they have to lose anyway?

Quite a bit, actually.

As stated in the UT3 delay discussion thread, if you start looking at the numbers, you end up coming up short.

Unless you make it explicitly cross-platform, you need to do the work to make a Linux version- that's $50-150k worth of salary or you honestly need to see a bit of profit coming out of a possible failed attempt (Which is WHY they want so much up-front from a porting interest...).

At 50k of salary/hourly to do the work, you need to see 2000 units sell for it to make a roughly break-even deal at $30 per unit your sale price (Which doesn't get into the prices you see...which would make it more akin to $40-50 at that point...). We've not, as a group, done a lot of buying, even when it was an in-demand thing (Loki's stuff, as a whole didn't sell more than 1500 units per title. Q3:A only sold 200 units max...)- so we're not looking at all compelling from that angle alone.

Couple this with not knowing how to minimize your support woes and seeing dozens of "different" distributions- they don't see anything except downside with us right at the moment, installed userbase numbers of tens of millions not withstanding.

[edit]

This is why you see this thread. I'm keen on seeing the story becoming more compelling to them- or changing the rules up so they don't matter any more. You have to do this by way of showing them that there really will be 4-5k units sold or more on a given title being ported over. At that point, they actually will see some smattering of profit and they'd be interested in getting their foot in the door if it's not going to be painful, costs-wise for them. The only reason the studios that have done official or unofficial Linux versions is because they can and they had either a mandate to see to it that the engine was cross-platform (iD, Epic...) or they're fans of the OS at least in part and are doing the right thing at a probably slight loss, possible slight gain (S2, Hothead, etc...). There's a reason why you don't see the bulk of the publisher titles going our way- it's because of the numbers I just showed you not being a good thing for us. We need to change the numbers and change the rules up.

[me262]

Then there's the issue of game availability. I was looking for Linux Version of id titles in local stores and their websites and I couldn't really find anything.
I actually did find a copy of Quake 3 for Linux in a mall in Florida back in 2002, it was a tin box. At the time I wasn't running Linux on my network at all, and didn't pick it up (that and I didn't have the money, vacationing will do that).

[Alecz]

Quite a bit, actually.
...

Unless you make it explicitly cross-platform, you need to do the work to make a Linux version- that's $50-150k worth of salary or you honestly need to see a bit of profit coming out of a possible failed attempt (Which is WHY they want so much up-front from a porting interest...).

...


You basically say they might lose the money invested in "porting" the game. Isn't this what LGP does? I don't see why they ask you so much money if you guys do the porting and they only collect a small percent of the sales. This would translate into them receiving money even if only one copy was sold.

Anyhow... I don't know that much about all this publishing business, and in part I learned to live with Linux without games... there's so much more to computers!

Note, that I would like to have more commercial games on Linux!

[xav1r]

What about online only games? Like that quake live thing thats gonna be released soon? Does anyone know if it will run on linux?

[me262]

Wikipedia says it'll be launched from the web browser, but Quake Live's site isn't giving any of the ingredients.

It'd stand a chance that in order to launch from the browser it would employ some Java technology, which would make it cross platform, much like how Pox Nora is run through Java Web Start.

At this point, it's unknown because there's no official information from their website. I'd maybe grab someone who's testing the beta version (or try to get on the beta list yourself), to find out.

[Svartalf]

You basically say they might lose the money invested in "porting" the game. Isn't this what LGP does? I don't see why they ask you so much money if you guys do the porting and they only collect a small percent of the sales. This would translate into them receiving money even if only one copy was sold.


It's because they're wanting that profit up-front and you're licensing the rights to see their "IP" instead of doing the work for them in most cases. You can't see the reason because you're thinking in rational terms and you're seeing this as someone doing them favors- they do NOT see it that way. Unless you're handing them a goodly sized chunk of money (Keep in mind, 1-10k in dollars is nothing for someone like Blizzard, Bioware, etc. You're trying to think that more money is better- they don't see anything less than about $25-50k as being more money. They see it, typically, as a waste of their time in many cases...)

[Alecz]

Thanks for the clarification, Svartalf.

Any idea when LGP website and Tuxgames come back online?

[Marox]

It's a pitty - 10tacle Studios filed for bankruptcy a few days ago and i'm really sorry for the employees :(
I don't like this 'picking over the bones', but might it be a chance to get some more of their games for porting to linux ? I mean, is there a possibility to get the code and copyrights (for a better price as usual) ?
I don't have clue about those business things, but probably you might get a good deal.

[Svartalf]

It's a pitty - 10tacle Studios filed for bankruptcy a few days ago and i'm really sorry for the employees :(
I don't like this 'picking over the bones', but might it be a chance to get some more of their games for porting to linux ? I mean, is there a possibility to get the code and copyrights (for a better price as usual) ?
I don't have clue about those business things, but probably you might get a good deal.

Heh... I think it'd depend on what form of bankruptcy they're filing. If Germany allows a reorg type one like the US does, you MIGHT see something happen if the trustee allows it. Otherwise, you're not getting rights to titles via purchase under most cases as the trustee won't be letting it go for any less than something on the order of 10-50k per title. You'd OWN the rights lock-stock-and-barrel at that point, but we're still back to needing to come up with the cash.

[late edit]

Beings that it's a dissolution, I will check into what might be needed to snare the rights for Linux from their respective studios or from the receiver for ALL platforms in the case of an inside studio...

[Svartalf]

Thanks for the clarification, Svartalf.

You're welcome. :D

Any idea when LGP website and Tuxgames come back online?

Not sure. I'm in a different location than the corporate offices (UK vs. Dallas, TX...) and they're having some nice n' nasty fun courtesy of their former ISP and BT right at the moment. I'm kind of out of the loop for part of it (need to see if Michael's on IRC so I can get back in touch with him- I've a few fixes that need propagation back into version control that should nearly bring Bandits to gold status...)- and I've been busy since this last Wednesday as I was out of the state on some personal business...

[Svartalf]

Heh... I think it'd depend on what form of bankruptcy they're filing. If Germany allows a reorg type one like the US does, you MIGHT see something happen if the trustee allows it. Otherwise, you're not getting rights to titles via purchase under most cases as the trustee won't be letting it go for any less than something on the order of 10-50k per title. You'd OWN the rights lock-stock-and-barrel at that point, but we're still back to needing to come up with the cash.

1) It doesn't look like they allow re-org like the US does.
2) Reading the German announcement text, it looks like all the investors pulled the plug on their promissory notes and came to collect their monies loaned out and left them insolvent
3) Something strange is going on. They just closed a big financing deal back end of last month.

[Xipeos]

Mount&Blade by TaleWorlds (http://www.taleworlds.com).

I doubt they'd oppose it, but the game's copy protection (Themida) might pose some problems.

[Svartalf]

Mount&Blade by TaleWorlds (http://www.taleworlds.com).

I doubt they'd oppose it, but the game's copy protection (Themida) might pose some problems.

If it's something in the codebase that they tie into (that'd be my guess), then there's ways of coming up with a program that'll work elsewhere- just not with Themida being there.

However... If they're insisting upon DRM (Themida) for the Windows one, they're going to want at least Steam or LGP type DRM at this point in time. Since the consensus is that "we don't need no stinking DRM" from the forum, this is a prospect, but it's going to probably drag DRM along with it.

[edit]

Keeping in mind that this is MY personal opinion here- I find some perverse humor in finding warezed copies of their protection suite (Themida...) on a Google search and am deeply concerned by finding that it's deemed to be spyware.

[Alecz]

ETQW is basically a point-release. That is: You buy the Windows version and get the installer from id software to install it on Linux. If you really want to make sure that it is counted as "Linux sale", buy it at one of the "store for Linux software" like tuxgames.com. Though they will basically send you the same box, maybe with an extra disc for the point installer. There is no separate Linux box.

Now that Tux Games, and LGP are back online, I was able to browse their products a bit.

What I found, though, is that the prices are rather high compared to the stores that sell the Windows version of the same game.

Game in case: Quake Wars: Enemy Territory.
Tuxgames price: $60
EBGames (Windows): $30
EBGames (Xbox 360): $60

Since the Linux Version is just the Windows Version sold by a Linux store with the Linux installer, why is the price double?

[Svartalf]

Since the Linux Version is just the Windows Version sold by a Linux store with the Linux installer, why is the price double?

What you're paying in your example is proportionate to what EBGames (Really, GameStop...) paid for the current copies offered by the distributor for the Windows version. Tuxgames is pricing it off of what they paid for it back when the stuff originally came out- if you'd have checked EBGames' online prices when it originally came out you'd see similar pricing to what TuxGames is offering for it currently. Not my call on the pricing- in order for him to sell at the EBGames price, he'll probably have to see a reduced profit or take a potential loss on the resale of those units.

Right now, the only plus with buying from TuxGames would be a sales figure data point for Linux- if you buy the EBGames' Windows copy, you will not at all count as a Linux sale, you'll count as a Windows one for definite. Me, I bought mine from a used game store (If you're wondering, it was at a price I could hardly refuse ($4)...otherwise I'd be in line buying it from TuxGames to help out like I and others have suggested... ;)). Yes, it counted as a Windows sale originally, but I didn't inflate the Windows sales numbers by one extra by buying a new copy.

[Alecz]

Svartalf, thanks again for clarifying my confusion.

Your explanation does make sense. I suppose sellers such as EBGames either made enough profit or are taking a loss on those titles.

IIRC, Those games used to be more expensive.

Thanks again.

back on topic... what are the odds of seeing Rome: Total War ported to Linux?
http://www.totalwar.com/?lang=us

The Creative Assembly, and SEGA are involved.

[Svartalf]

Svartalf, thanks again for clarifying my confusion.

You're welcome.


Your explanation does make sense. I suppose sellers such as EBGames either made enough profit or are taking a loss on those titles.

IIRC, Those games used to be more expensive.


Yeah... Either the publisher, distributor, or EBGames themselves are happy with things ROI-wise and now they're just pushing out stuff at lower prices because they think they can eke out a bit more return on it before running the bargain bin fire-sale on the title.


back on topic... what are the odds of seeing Rome: Total War ported to Linux?
http://www.totalwar.com/?lang=us

The Creative Assembly, and SEGA are involved.

It's a "maybe"- it's a AAA title and as such, we're looking at a likely big chunk of cash or coming up with some DRM answer... Added to the list for the "maybe" category for now.

[Svartalf]

Added two new titles, one in the "maybe" list and one in the "checking up on it" list- refer to the beginning of the thread (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=36588&postcount=1) for details on what is what.

I've also managed to do a cursory skim of things in my contract and I think I may be able to go ahead with the EU2 project lead and I need to get back on the Harpoon 3 project lead. Deafening silence came back from Lead Pursuit on Falcon 4, so I don't know where that one's going- it seems stalled. I will be trying to get in touch with the Unknown Worlds people to see if they'd like help with a Linux/MacOS version while they're still in development.

Other than that, still forging forward on my current obligations (Bandits... ;)).

[ivanovic]

I just had a look at the list of games. I am not 100% sure but I think you can directly kill all games by the finish studio remedy from the "maybe" list. IIRC they were either bought by Microsoft or are in a close corporation with them and I do not think that they will allow them to give out the rights for the port. That is Max Payne and Max Payne 2 are IMO very unlikely, though they are great games.

[Svartalf]

I just had a look at the list of games. I am not 100% sure but I think you can directly kill all games by the finish studio remedy from the "maybe" list. IIRC they were either bought by Microsoft or are in a close corporation with them and I do not think that they will allow them to give out the rights for the port. That is Max Payne and Max Payne 2 are IMO very unlikely, though they are great games.

Counted as changed... Damn shame...but yeah, it's like my flippant mention of Dungeon Siege being right out...

[ivanovic]

Okay, it is said in news post that they are cooperating closely with MS for "Alan Wake" (cf this article (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/alanwake/news.html?sid=6149852)), no idea how close they are really working together with them. Might be that it is just such a limited cooperation, might be a "hidden takeover". So you could ask them but you should not expect anything, not even an answer.

[Svartalf]

Okay, it is said in news post that they are cooperating closely with MS for "Alan Wake" (cf this article (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/alanwake/news.html?sid=6149852)), no idea how close they are really working together with them. Might be that it is just such a limited cooperation, might be a "hidden takeover". So you could ask them but you should not expect anything, not even an answer.

Heh... I wouldn't venture a guess either way- if it's not a hidden takeover, it's certainly a situation where MS, if they so chose, could deep-six "Alan Wake" and thereby place Remedy in a bad position financially. All it'd take is them getting a whiff of anyone on the Linux side of things getting a deal and they'd threaten to pull the plug on their little "collaboration" there and that'd be all she wrote for the port project for anything prior to it. And moreover, with them in bed on this current project, even if they're not taken over, MS could always dink around on the proceeds, etc. on "Alan Wake".

They're currently dead to us, much like Gas Powered's stuff is right now.

[Dragonlord]

Hm... like war... 40% losses on the first day :D

[xav1r]

Heh... I wouldn't venture a guess either way- if it's not a hidden takeover, it's certainly a situation where MS, if they so chose, could deep-six "Alan Wake" and thereby place Remedy in a bad position financially. All it'd take is them getting a whiff of anyone on the Linux side of things getting a deal and they'd threaten to pull the plug on their little "collaboration" there and that'd be all she wrote for the port project for anything prior to it. And moreover, with them in bed on this current project, even if they're not taken over, MS could always dink around on the proceeds, etc. on "Alan Wake".

They're currently dead to us, much like Gas Powered's stuff is right now.

While they are pretty much touting alan wake as a flagship directx10 title, i doubt they will be bought out by ms. It's not as hot property as GoW or Halo. But yea, linux isnt on their list of priorities.

BTW, Svartalf, what do you think of the newly released OpenGL 3.0 specs?

[xav1r]

Looking at the updated list Im seeing that natural selection 2 is in the being looked at category. I didnt know natural selection was going commercial. From their website im seeing that theyre using a new engine too. Can they sell what was originally a mod for half life 1?

[Dragonlord]

It has been known since quite some time.

What goes about OpenGL 3.0 ... who cares. It's got extensions so I can use those tricks already on OGL2 hardware if it exposes what I need. No need to fall back into retarded revision thinking as DirectX does.

[Svartalf]

Looking at the updated list Im seeing that natural selection 2 is in the being looked at category. I didnt know natural selection was going commercial. From their website im seeing that theyre using a new engine too. Can they sell what was originally a mod for half life 1?

Yes. If they're not using Valve's engine for it and not using any assets that were Valve's or someone else's.

It's a definite prospect since they're doing a full-on game. It's a good AAA prospect that we might be able to scoop up without much pain because they've expressed interest and stated that they fully intend to but don't have the resources (which I could provide however they'd like to run it...) to guarantee it until after the Windows version comes out.

I like to see that sort of thing- I like seeing someone, even if it's not myself, coming through and making it happen. :D

[Svartalf]

It has been known since quite some time.

What goes about OpenGL 3.0 ... who cares. It's got extensions so I can use those tricks already on OGL2 hardware if it exposes what I need. No need to fall back into retarded revision thinking as DirectX does.

Heh... That's why I commented elsewhere that the people bitching and indicating they're going DX10 just because they didn't get Long's Peak as promised are actually being more than a bit silly- you are only going to get Vista as a target and possibly the next generation of X-Box (but NOT the current one- that should be a hint there... ;)).

If you want to know what the fast path actually IS on OpenGL2.x (Which was one of the main bitches they used as an excuse for their acting out like they did...), just look at what you can do with ES 2.0- it'll be pretty close to the same thing really and is more akin to what I was expecting out of Longs Peak, really, with a more robust Object-centric model involved with it.

I'm disappointed, yes. But you can accomplish the same level of eye-candy with a bit more effort with OpenGL 2.1 and DirectX 9c- making it "easier" won't do anything other than allow them to cut corners there or elsewhere because it's "faster" to code for now.

[Svartalf]

BTW, Svartalf, what do you think of the newly released OpenGL 3.0 specs?

They're "okay".

I honestly think they should have worked at making the Embedded Subsets the main APIs, myself, and left the CAD vendors that didn't want to move their old crufty code to use the Safety Critical profile of ES 1.1, left the people that wanted fixed function to use the normal profile of ES 1.1, and everyone else could use ES 2.0 like Sony and anyone coding for the console mostly does right now. You can honestly have three or more API edges for things- what you code to is an API, not a driver... There can be several different purposed API sets all comprising what you call "OpenGL"- and honestly do you need immediate mode rendering operations in a game or GIS application? NO. But with OpenGL as it currently stands, you get all the crap you don't need along with what you do and if you're not paying attention to the spec docs when you chose to use an API call, you can end up picking the "wrong" one for your application- and the biggest gripe is that it's not "obvious" which is which. That, honestly, is bunk- it's someone wanting to not think about what they're doing when they're coding. (See a problem with that? I do.)

Longs Peak was ambitious and broke the hell out of all kinds of things much like the delta from D3D7 to D3D8 or D3D9c to D3D10 did to DirectX programmers. It'd been nice to have what they promised- but they didn't give us that for some legit reasons. Not having it doesn't relegate us to the "stone age" as the people griping about it all state as the state machine might be "old" but it still allows you to accomplish pretty much everything you need to do. Some things take a little more coding effort in OpenGL over D3D, but other things are much, much simpler and pretty much all the functionality from D3D is there with the ARB extensions in the first place. Even with D3D10 if you think about it. What's useful and relevant is there or going to be there now in an easy to use manner.

[Dragonlord]

What's the problem with "wrong calls"? The OpenGL API is not a huge mess as the DX API is. There are traps along the way but the same is true for DX. So how can you pick a "wring call" in OpenGL? That's an honest question from a fellow game dev.

[Svartalf]

What's the problem with "wrong calls"? The OpenGL API is not a huge mess as the DX API is. There are traps along the way but the same is true for DX. So how can you pick a "wring call" in OpenGL? That's an honest question from a fellow game dev.

Heh... Mostly the "wrong calls" are stupid things that'll stall the pipeline. Either with all cards (but you usually find those out REAL quick...) or with just AMD's or NVidia's cards. It's a bit byzantine and if you don't read the Red Book carefully you can get zapped in the oddest of ways. There's fewer gotchas than DX, but when you find them... :D

For example:

You can map a VBO into the applications memory mappings.

The spec says that this operation may stall the pipeline.

There's a certain LucasArts published 3D game in which they took that at face value (I know this because I worked as a sustaining engineer for one of the Big Two, trying to sort out XP and Vista bugs in their driver code for 6 months some two or so years ago- I was led to believe that I might get to work on Linux driver stuff later on in the gig which was the only reason I took it on...never happened for whatever the reasons the vendor had...). This had the predictable result that one of the drivers (Unfortunately the one I was chasing the problem on...) took the "may" to be a "shall" because it was easier to implement and was still completely within the spec. If you stall on all map operations, you know for positive that you're not corrupting any of the VBOs and don't have to go to the extra step of tracking their usage by the GPU. Easy thing, really- and I might have even implemented the driver that way, not expecting them to do the "wrong" thing and drop their code out of the fast path.

Because of this, the game on at least some of the levels would get drug down into slide-show framerates on a card that should paste pretty much all comers with syrupy smooth framerates period. Why it would do this is that it was recycling VBOs, rendering portions of the scene and then re-recycling the VBO in the middle of the frame render.

If the studio that LucasArts had retained had simply observed that you honestly need to wait until intraframe time to do these operations they could have done the trick of recycling their VBOs to conserve card memory and never encountered a problem. In all honesty, I'm not naming names to protect the inno...er...guilty... Someone over there at the studio in question ought to have known better as they've been at OpenGL titles for a bit before that game... ;)

End result was that the driver was rewritten to account for and track in-flight/non-in-flight VBOs and only stall the pipeline if we knew the VBO was in use or could about to be so, basically going from "shall" to "may" in the use of the map operation stall possibility...

There's other vicious edge cases like the aforementioned. The complainers don't seem to get that while there can be some difficulty finding the actual fast-path for things (because it requires careful reading of the Red Book to avoid gotchas like this...) it's still documented and it's better so, even with the wishy-washy defs, than much of D3D is right now.

Longs Peak promised to remove much of the nuances like that one from the API and bring a smaller, cleaner one. Knowing some of the people, one of whom was my boss at the time, that were ARB board members, I'm a bit disappointed to see them back down on this one. Not as much as some of the people screeching about it- but disappointed all the same.

[Dragonlord]

Yeah, I could imagine such things happen. That said I never mixed HW update code ( hence anything moving data to the GPU RAM ) with render code. I always do first all update code and then all render code. Prevented me from all sorts of "odd behaviors" so far. The only gotcha I found ( which though also resulted in some wtf?! over at gamedev.net ) has been the annoying FBO behavior. Took me quite some time profiling around until I located this one. 64us versus 10ms is a noticeable trap to avoid :O .

I doubt though that LP is going to change this a lot. There are so many hacks in place in graphic cards to gain speed for certain tasks that wrapping a more rigid ( for the driver developers ) system around won't be easy. That said it would be nice if some stupid traps would be disarmed like ATI/nVidia specific and mutual-exclusive FBO render formats <.=.< . Some ARBs would be happy to get some "sane" definitions. After all OpenGL has unfortunately a tendency for washy definitions.

[Svartalf]

Yeah, I could imagine such things happen. That said I never mixed HW update code ( hence anything moving data to the GPU RAM ) with render code. I always do first all update code and then all render code. Prevented me from all sorts of "odd behaviors" so far.

I've had to clean up some code (including in Bandits AND Ballistics) that was done without adhering to those sorts of "rules" for coding. I've found that it always helps to hold that position or if you're not able to do so, make for sure you read the Red Book's descriptions on what you're doing and make sure that "may" is read as "shall".



The only gotcha I found ( which though also resulted in some wtf?! over at gamedev.net ) has been the annoying FBO behavior. Took me quite some time profiling around until I located this one. 64us versus 10ms is a noticeable trap to avoid :O .


Ow. That just hurts reading it. That's enough to toast any real framerate out of something. So, there's some mutually exclusive target formats for FBO work. Nice to know- I'll start digging around on gamedev.net for some of the details then... :D


I doubt though that LP is going to change this a lot. There are so many hacks in place in graphic cards to gain speed for certain tasks that wrapping a more rigid ( for the driver developers ) system around won't be easy. That said it would be nice if some stupid traps would be disarmed like ATI/nVidia specific and mutual-exclusive FBO render formats <.=.< . Some ARBs would be happy to get some "sane" definitions. After all OpenGL has unfortunately a tendency for washy definitions.


Heh... It's one of those "washy" definitions that produced the problem I described. And, I, too doubt that LP would have made all that much of a difference- it'd been nice and helped in some areas of coding, but it wouldn't have fixed other things like the stuff we're talking to right at the moment. It's also why I go and scratch my head and go wtf? when they bitch about OpenGL being "in the stone age" or "behind the times" when compared to Direct3D. It's not- it's just different. Some tasks are easier compared to OpenGL- others are definitely NOT so. In the end, I'd think the cross-platform ability would outweigh the cases where it's a little more coding required, but apparently not. :D

[Dragonlord]

About the FBO thing it's in fact fairly simple. I use for the main render code greedy color attachments hence ones which grow if a larger render target is demanded by the game but does not shrink. I'm simply doing the typical viewport/scissor dance to reuse the same attachments all over the place since I'm doing deferred rendering. Anyways at some point in time you just have to switch to a 1024 or 2048 shadow texture to do those fancy real time shadows. That though hurt with 10ms. The culprit had been the switch attachment calls. As it looks like FBOs do not like at all if you attach something having a different dimension ( different color format or type is fine though ). Hence changing attachments with same dimensions = fast... changing attachments with different size = slow. I switched then to a FBO manager handing out FBOs for a given size request ensuring that this case does not happen. Switch codes are now down to 64us for FBO change which is acceptable. The funny point in this story is that one of the moderators at gamedev nearly tipped over since on Vista doing a FBO change is hell slow but changing attachments with different sizes is not. So I use now 1 shared FBO on windows and managed FBOs on Linux.

The second one is the attachment woes. Not sure how this is with new cards but the problem is that my nVidia cards only allow to attach color targets to FBOs which are of the GL_NV_* type. Anything else yields incomplete FBO. On ATI on the other hand GL_NV_* of course yields incomplete FBO and there you need to common GL_RGB* and company to render to. Can be easily coped with by doing an FBO incompletion test at startup marking valid formats. No idea though why nVidia had this glorious idea in the first place to mess up common sense.