Choosing the right chipset for a HTPC

[ltmon]

Hi All,

I'm building a Linux-based HTPC, and am attracted to various AMD/ATI 690G boards. Mainly because of low cost, low power integrated graphics (X1250) with HDMI output already built in.

The other main option is an all Intel solution, with a G33 chipset. I would probably drive my TV with a DVI-to-HDMI cable in this case, as inbuilt HDMI are a bit harder to come by.

I'd like to know experiences people have with driving HD televisions with these chipsets. I'd like to get 1080p video output and basic OpenGL with enough performance to run the various HTPC interfaces such as XbMC (for linux), elisa, mythtv and linuxmce.

- Is ATI still too much of a pain, despite recent improvements? Are the video playback acceleration capabilities working properly on linux?
- Is the Intel too slow? Does it have video playback acceleration?
- Would I be better off with a discrete card? Which one?

My laptop's nvidia is quite good through DVI, but has some occasional video tearing. Plus I want to support Intel and AMD with their open source strategies if possible.

Thanks in advance,

L

[Redeeman]

my brother has an G33 gigabyte board with hdmi plug on..

What you have, is XV from the intel driver, and it works well.

3d is also very usable, allthough it naturally does not match that of highend cards..

[ltmon]

Thanks,

I think after a bit more research I'll go with the Intel. They seem to have fixed their Xv issues, and the Nvidia/ATI alternatives don't have great support for hardware video decoding on Linux. Of course, I can always buy a discrete ATI/Nvidia card if the integrated Intel isn't up to it, wheras I can't buy a discrete Intel card.

I'm almost tempted to wait for the G45 chipset release, but it seems to be pushed back further and further (September even?).

[bridgman]

Not trying to change your mind or anything, just wanted to point out that Xv is not video decode acceleration. Xv is video *render* acceleration ie "the stuff that happens after decoding". Video decode includes IDCT and MC, while video render includes colour space conversion, scaling and de-interlacing.

XvMC is where real "video decode" acceleration starts.

Now, that said, I expect Intel will have XvMC in open source drivers before we do, so carry on ;)

[Kano]

Basically mpeg2 decode is no problem for current CPUs at all. And XV means that the scaling is accellerated. The real problem is h264, especially inside TS streams. I would like to see accellerated codecs, maybe thru CUDA. Did you notice that somebody implemented a CUDA wrapper for ATI to run Physx? Wouldn't it be nice when ATI developers could just reuse the CUDA software which is already written? All you need to do would be some CUDA wrapper libs which map to the ATI ABI.

[yann117]

Choosing the right chipset for a Linux HTPC might be the question of the decade.

It is not really clear what we can expect from each manufacturer in the NEAR future.

AMD/Ati UVP support for linux is planned for RV710. In fact I'm not even sure of this. If someone could confirm this ? (bridgman ?).

If it is confirmed, as RV710 is coming soon (september) it might interesting to wait for it...

Otherwise, there is the G45 that is currently under test from many windows user (AV forum), but unfortunatley no one under linux ... But I don't expect much for HA under linux currently, as even under windows it is still buggy/draft ...

I've been waiting for month to build my new HTPC, but it could be delayed until september, or even end of the year ...

Requirements are:

- HDMI sound support (not requesting bitstreaming/PAVP, but at least raw 8 channels LPCM)

- Hardware acceleration

[Redeeman]

by hardware acceleration you mean hardware H264 decoding?

[Dieter]

Appariently there is open source XvMC for Chrome,
but no one ever mentions Chrome. Why? Is there
something wrong with Chrome I should know about?
Assume: Xv and XvMC required, gaming is NOT required.

[Redeeman]

why do you care about xvmc?! its only for mpeg, and any cpu you could possibly acquire through any retail shop today have no problems doing 1080p mpeg2 decoding..

if you want your life to be easy, you'll forget decode acceleration, and aim for intel graphics and get a fairly powerful cpu, some E8400 or E8500. :)

[yann117]

Yes I mean H264/VC1 hardware decoding.

I'd like to use an E5200 or E7200 max. I think it is some kind of waste to use the CPU to decode, when you have a powerful GPU chip aside.

To lower the heat and power consumption, obviously the smallest CPU is the best, so the choosen GPU requires "full" support under linux as well ...

The pity is that it seems it won't happen for long ... :'(

Dieter: I didn't knew Chroms chipset until you mentioned them. But I S3 Chrome are only for video, so it would not match the requirements audio+video for the perfect htpc. I don't think you can find a motherboard that provide chrome + audio 8ch LPCM / HDMI.

[curaga]

Yeah, Via's newer chips are capable of hardware H.264 and mpeg4. Wonder when that'll be fully supported.

[Marox]

Yeah, Via's newer chips are capable of hardware H.264 and mpeg4. Wonder when that'll be fully supported.

look at Harald Welte's Blog
http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/

-> Fri, 01 Aug 2008
..
..

The start is done, but for sure it'll take 'some' time ;)

[Dieter]

>>> why do you care about xvmc?! its only for mpeg

I have a boatload of mpegs.

>>> any cpu you could possibly acquire through any retail shop today

My CPUs are more than 5 nanoseconds old, but I don't feel like
buying a new CPU today. Expensive, and not very "green".

GPUs have the hardware needed to decode videos. Using a GPU
to decode video uses less power than using a CPU. A nice feature
in summer when it is hot. Also lowers the electric bill, and
helps the "green" factor. I don't have numbers handy for GPUs,
but IIRC some dedicated decoding chips only use something like
1-5 Watts, compared to 100-150 Watts for a CPU. I suspect
that GPUS are somewhere in between.

>>> aim for intel graphics

No thanks. Inthell makes buggy products which they do not support
properly, and they engage in criminal behavior.

>> S3 Chrome are only for video, so it would not match the
>> requirements audio+video for the perfect htpc.

Huh? What GPU outputs audio?

>> I don't think you can find a motherboard that provide chrome + audio
>> 8ch LPCM / HDMI.

8 channel? 2 is plenty. I can live without HDMI.

I was hoping they make PCI/PCIe cards with Chrome and DVI-I + s-video out?
I assume that Chrome connected via Ethernet or firewire is too much to
hope for.

> Via's newer chips are capable of hardware H.264 and mpeg4. Wonder when
> that'll be fully supported.

VIA and ATI can race for it. First one with great FLOSS video decode
support gets a LOT of customers.

[crumja]

Offloading to the GPU for simple mpeg2 decoding is really not worth it. The CPU is more than powerful enough and does *not* require 100W to play back. My HTPC desktop with Celeron E1200 only goes up 10W or so from idle in playback mode (measured by kill a watt) and barely hits 15% usage. GPUs will not make much of a dent in this number.

As for Intel making buggy products and criminal activity, I have to call your BS. Intel has an outstanding track record of QC on their chips and their platforms have been humming along in perfect stability for several years in my server room. In contrast, several machines I have built using their competitors' platforms have crashed and burned.

I wouldn't buy VIA hardware btw. They are exiting most markets (certainly the chipset one) and IMHO are on the verge of bankruptcy. OSS support will be questionable for a company with limited resources.

[Redeeman]

suit yourself, but i can tell you this, mpeg2 decoding can be done in 1080p resolution by _ANY_ cpu which anyone should be using, basically, that means, that my amd64 2ghz singlecore socket 754 can do it.

as for saying intel graphics is buggy and unsupported, i think you ought to look at whom actually has support for stuff, and if you are even considering via, then thats just a giant joke compared to intel.

if you wanna be able to do highdefinition h264/vc1 you are gonna need to get an E8400+, preferrably E8500/E8600 :)

yeah, i know, the multithreading branch of ffmpeg will soon be merged, but who knows how long "soon" is, and well, the extra power doesent hurt.

As for intel being criminals, well.. im not sure what specifically you are referring to, being an american company they almost certainly have done various illegal things, but you can bet you ass via has aswell, and furthermore, one thing is whats LEGALLY illegal, and what is legal but atleast as wrong. Via is guilty of various things which OUGHT to be illegal, but simply arent.

[yann117]

>> Huh? What GPU outputs audio?

I did not mean a GPU should handle audio, but was speaking about the whole packaging. I'm not very connoisseur of the via mainboards, and what kind of chipset/functionnalities they provide. Don't hesitate to inform us on this topic.


>> 8 channel? 2 is plenty. I can live without HDMI.

We don't talk about the same thing. If you are building a box with 2.0 it's only a media center (just use one of these multimedia harddrives instead), an htpc (Home Theater) requires at least 5.1, and nowadays 7.1 is more than common.

About Intel, I agree with crumja, Intel motherboards for example are considered the more stable on the market (not the more efficient or tunable however).


>> I wouldn't buy VIA hardware btw. They are exiting most markets (certainly the chipset one) and IMHO are on the verge of bankruptcy. OSS support will be questionable for a company with limited resources.

Imho via are far from bankruptcy ... They are only focusing on their nano/chrome platform. Intel and AMD don't want to use their chipset anymore, so its logical to leave this market.

Actually VIA stuff (nano cpu, unichrome, vinyl audio controller, ...) seems promising. But again, could a whole htpc system be build with via components ?

PS: any info on RV710 (and UVD2 - maybe even limited - support under linux) ?

[curaga]

I'd definitely say most of a HTPC could go Via. Also, Intel does not let it's mini-itx mobos have anything faster than a pci slot, via doesn't limit that so many have one pci-e 16x so you can add any graphic card needed.

If put only to cpu, only the new Nano is good with video, but that's what gpus should be for anyway. I'd wait until the Nano ships.

Depends on the mobo, but I've seen HDMI and 5.1 audio around.

There are of course the added bonuses of silence, small size, less heat, sometimes embedded infrared (Remote control and IrDA), and then the power draw is minimal.

[Redeeman]

I'd definitely say most of a HTPC could go Via. Also, Intel does not let it's mini-itx mobos have anything faster than a pci slot, via doesn't limit that so many have one pci-e 16x so you can add any graphic card needed.

then how do you explain intel having a mini-itx board with pci express on?

i think you are referring to the atom boards...

[Dieter]

>>> if you are even considering via

I don't know much about VIA (yet). I stumbled across the
fact that they've had FLOSS support for XvMC on Chrome for
awhile, but for some reason they aren't discussed much.
So I'd like to learn more about VIA and see if this Chrome
thingy meets my needs or not. Stuff like:

available form factors
onboard?
PCI card?
PCIe card?
other?
does it do what I want?
2D stuff (xterm, xpdf, web browsers, ...)
Xv & XvMC
(no gaming required)
documented / FLOSS, not binaries
reasonably bug free
reliable
DVI-I (or equivalent) and s-video out
energy efficient, fanless
economic cost

>>> you wanna be able to do highdefinition h264/vc1

Not a requirement.

>>> As for intel being criminals, well.. im not sure what specifically you are referring to

Theft.

>> If you are building a box with 2.0 it's only a media center (just use
>> one of these multimedia harddrives instead), an htpc (Home Theater)
>> requires at least 5.1

Actually I think of it as a DVR. :-)

>> PS: any info on RV710 (and UVD2 - maybe even limited - support under linux) ?

Last I read, they hadn't even started to try and figure out if they could
document UVD/UVD2 without getting a chair thrown at them. I get the impression
that 3D gaming stuff is getting priority over video decoding stuff. :-(
I don't have any idea how long it is going to take to get FLOSS XvMC for
ATI, which is why I'm looking into VIA.

> I'd definitely say most of a HTPC could go Via. Also, Intel does not let it's
> mini-itx mobos have anything faster than a pci slot, via doesn't limit that so
> many have one pci-e 16x so you can add any graphic card needed.

PCI is fast enough for compressed video, but not fast enough for uncompressed
video. Those of you that want to have the CPU do the uncompressing need PCIe.
Does anyone know what the data rate between the CPU and GPU is with the GPU
providing Xv & XvMC? I assume it is somewhere in between.

[Redeeman]

but werent the mpeg4 supporting xvmc pulled?
besides, that only covered divx/xvid, and well.. thats pretty much... whats the word... irellevant?! you'll find no high definition material encoded in it(atleast so little that its not worth considering), and mpeg2 is decoded so effectively on cpu's today that it isnt even worth caring about xvmc for it.

That leaves H264 back, which xvmc, as far as i know, NEVER supported in any incarnation, which means via is out for anything but xv, which leaves you are CPU decoding, and well, you'd do much better with intel than via..

so as i see it, you can pretty much forget about decoding with the gpu right now, because either
1: its irellevant (SD material or MPEG2)
or 2: its non-existant, and ETA is unknown.

Which brings me back to my recommendation, get an E8400 or higher cpu (E8500 recently went to basically same price), and some intel graphics motherboard.

[yann117]

so as i see it, you can pretty much forget about decoding with the gpu right now, because either
1: its irellevant (SD material or MPEG2)
or 2: its non-existant, and ETA is unknown.

Which brings me back to my recommendation, get an E8400 or higher cpu (E8500 recently went to basically same price), and some intel graphics motherboard.

I totaly agree with you, HA is not linux ready, and I fear not for a moment ...

But so, I'd like to have at least audio through HDMI (less cable). Even on this point, the solutions are not clear ...

PS: I've read a test about full cpu decoding of 1080 material, even with video filter that were fully handled by an E7200. According to the price of E8400, I'd be glad if an E7200 do the job ... :)

[MU_Engineer]

Hi All,

I'm building a Linux-based HTPC, and am attracted to various AMD/ATI 690G boards. Mainly because of low cost, low power integrated graphics (X1250) with HDMI output already built in.

The other main option is an all Intel solution, with a G33 chipset. I would probably drive my TV with a DVI-to-HDMI cable in this case, as inbuilt HDMI are a bit harder to come by.

I'd like to know experiences people have with driving HD televisions with these chipsets. I'd like to get 1080p video output and basic OpenGL with enough performance to run the various HTPC interfaces such as XbMC (for linux), elisa, mythtv and linuxmce.

- Is ATI still too much of a pain, despite recent improvements? Are the video playback acceleration capabilities working properly on linux?
- Is the Intel too slow? Does it have video playback acceleration?
- Would I be better off with a discrete card? Which one?

My laptop's nvidia is quite good through DVI, but has some occasional video tearing. Plus I want to support Intel and AMD with their open source strategies if possible.

Thanks in advance,

L

I have some experiences with quite a bit of graphics hardware, video, and HTPCs. Both an Intel and AMD setup can work very well for your uses, but each has strengths and weaknesses depending on your particular usage.

1. An all-Intel system is most likely going to cost more than an all-AMD system and offer fewer features, but it is also quite a bit more flexible and easier to work with from a software standpoint. Intel's IGPs support XVideo Motion Compensation, which offloads rendering and AA work to the GPU, allowing you to use a slower, cheaper, cooler-running CPU than if you were just using XVideo or OpenGL to display the images. My recommendation is to go with a G33 motherboard and an inexpensive but pretty decent Pentium Dual Core E2x00 CPU if you intend to use the MPEG-2 codec for your files and can take advantage of XvMC. Also, if you prefer to not run any proprietary drivers, stick with an Intel platform for the present no matter what codec you choose as the open-source ATi driver is not currently able to do 3D and video reliably on newer hardware. If you are going to be using a non-MPEG-2 codec, get a Core 2 Duo E7200 or one of the E8000 series CPUs.

2. An all-AMD system can give you more hardware features for less money than an all-Intel setup and also can be more power-efficient. If you intend to use a video codec that is *not* MPEG-2, then I would go this route as you will be using XVideo anyway. I'd suggest an AMD 780G board instead of the 690G as the 780G is much more powerful and not that much more expensive. You will need a reasonably stout CPU like the X2 5800+ to decode and deinterlace CPU-intensive codecs such as H.264 using XVideo.

ATi's proprietary drivers are decent today but lack some features available in NVIDIA's and Intel's drivers, such as proper XRandR support and XvMC. They work very nicely with XVideo, though. There is 2D support for the 690G and 780G with the open-source Xorg ATi driver but 3D and video is spotty. It's coming, but not here yet.

[Redeeman]

as it currently is, i recommend you get atleast E8500 (which is actually quite cheap) if you plan on doing 1080p H264 - because quite frankly, untill the multithreaded h264 is merged into ffmpeg, it DOES require _ALOT_ of cpu power to decode the most high bitrate scenes

as far as price/cool/features goes, i dont see how AMD can match intel at all, heck, AMD chipsets cant even get their act together on USB and SATA..

some quick prices(taken from Denmark):
G45 board will probably be around USD 150
E8400 cpu is $200
2gb ram is $75
Thats pretty damn cheap, and you can probably find a cheaper G33 board..

[bridgman]

There is 2D support for the 690G and 780G with the open-source Xorg ATi driver but 3D and video is spotty. It's coming, but not here yet.

FYI the 3d core in the 690 is from the R4xx generation so 3D and video are supported today in the open source drivers.

[Kano]

When they are as good as the RV410 then good night ;)