X.Org 7.4 To Lose DRI2 Support

[phoronix]

Phoronix: X.Org 7.4 To Lose DRI2 Support

It's six months late and X.Org 7.4 still hasn't shipped as its being held up on the release of Mesa 7.1. Hopefully though we'll see the release of Mesa 7.1, X.Org 7.4, and the X Server 1.5 in the very near future...

http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=NjYzNw

[Thetargos]

At this rate, why not skip XServer 1.5 altogether and jump straight into 1.6? Without all the features that have been stripped from it, what improvements are there over XServer 1.4 in the current 1.5-rc series?

[FunkyRider]

In other words, no Compiz + OGL + Video for another full year? My god come on! How long can I wait? I've waited a full year and now another, I made my decision to not go to nvidia because there is the Directed Indirect Rendering hope for next release of X.Org, now all hell break loose and I am going to stick to Windows for another year, I will have to re-consider Vista now.

So sad, but that's the truth, that's the world isn't it?

[_txf_]

What about those drivers that are using ttm like xf86-ati? Why not just keep it and then modify it later?

Can I just ask what is the point of xorg 7.4? What new features are remaining? 6 months late and they are still removing features, when will it stop...by the time it gets around to being released its going to be called xorg 7.3

They really should just dump the whole thing and go straight for 7.5.

[Thetargos]

In other words, no Compiz + OGL + Video for another full year? My god come on! How long can I wait? I've waited a full year and now another, I made my decision to not go to nvidia because there is the Directed Indirect Rendering hope for next release of X.Org, now all hell break loose and I am going to stick to Windows for another year, I will have to re-consider Vista now.

So sad, but that's the truth, that's the world isn't it?

As a Vista user on my laptop, I can tell you, I'd much rather reconsider using nVidia than using Vista. Seriously. But that'd be your call, of course.

[audi100quattro]

1.5 still has some badly needed EXA improvements compared to 1.4.x with the radeon driver, which is why I've been using everything from git for almost a year now. Hopefully I'll get to use the stable 1.5 release for a while before I get the itching to try DMX when it appears in tree (if it isn't there already?).

I've never quite gotten TTM to work correctly from git using the x11 gentoo overlay on my intel hardware so I could care less. The code is out there though, presumably in working condition as shipped with Fedora?

[Thetargos]

Yes, it works in Fedora, and is frequently updated. But other than EXA, what else justifies a major release version from 1.4 in the shape of 1.5?

[he_the_great]

At this rate, why not skip XServer 1.5 altogether and jump straight into 1.6? Without all the features that have been stripped from it, what improvements are there over XServer 1.4 in the current 1.5-rc series?

Yeah, I was going to ask, "So what will be in the Xorg 7.4 release." It seems that the should have just left the things in there, for example, my understand MPX is ready to go in. BTW I do believe feature freeze means you don't remove features too.

[immudium]

So the features that AMD users need are still "right around the corner" indefinitely, again. While NVidia users, though far from desktop Nirvana, continue to happily enjoy all features of Compiz as they have from the beginning of Compiz time. So, I have a couple of questions then. First, if AMD is so open source friendly now, why do they not contribute resources to a DRI2 implementation since that would directly support their open source efforts? Second, if the open source community can be counted on to fix their own problems then why such troubling failures from the Xorg project? Perhaps some of the kernel developers should spend less time writing petitions and flaming closed source supporters of Linux and spend more time lending a helping hand to the obviously understaffed Xorg team and addressing more pressing concerns that continue to hold Linux back. Physician, heal thyself.

[yoshi314]

this really makes me want to learn C and help out, instead of pointless b_tching.

[Thetargos]

this really makes me want to learn C and help out, instead of pointless b_tching.

Indeed... And even though I know some C and can certainly read code "comfortably", I often find that I don't seem to have the right mind-set to wrap around some of the problems the code tries to address... Said another way, I understand the code, I don't fully understand the logic behind the code. Which is a problem, as you can see, 'cause that means I can't do anything. Sure I can hack some code here and there, but that's about it.

[madman2k]

stop whining. I guess the DRI2 gets used when it is ready - regardless whether there is a Xorg release or not.

[Gottxxc]

Another year without compiz. No problem for me.

The only effect from compiz which is quite useful is the exposé effect.

[meden]

I can survive keeping switching Compiz on and off every time I want to watch a video. But that way Linux will never gain market share. If I were a (big) computer company, I'd keep shipping Window$ preinstalled.
Two features are now very important to ship Linux as "dumb user desktop" (in graphic domain, at least):

kernel mode setting: stability, suspend/stand-by working without praises;
DRI2: flawless direct rendering in a composited environoment.

Seen the DRI2 delay, I think ATI should provide some workaround ASAP, as already NVidia does from a long time.

[d2kx]

Well, I found RadeonHD to already work very good with Compiz+Videos. I had no flickering at all with the latest code... it only flickered when I clicked into the video, but why would I want to do that anyway...

[_txf_]

Seen the DRI2 delay, I think ATI should provide some workaround ASAP, as already NVidia does from a long time.

I would hardly call the nvidia solution a workaround. As annoying their closed nature can be I would say that their solution is fairly good. Basically they have ripped out the bottom of X and replaced it with their own solution. They have their own unified memory manager and they can do redirection easily. That is basically ttm and dri2 but specific to nvidia. (there are side effects as can clearly be seen by their crappy 2d acceleration)

It is not a simple task to add these two things to a driver as can clearly be seen by the current debacle. Asking ati to provide their own might take even longer than waiting for dri2.


besides I don't get what the big deal is with having videos mapped nicely to a compiz cube. Sure it is neat (and was things that made me go wow when compiz first came out) but even with nvidia there are downsides e.g. running xv with an opengl compositor does not vsync xv also I have noticed that with compositing enabled the video quality is reduced (besides the vsync issue).

[immudium]

this really makes me want to learn C and help out, instead of pointless b_tching.

Careful about those empty promises. We already have enough amateur C programmers making noise and spewing out vaporware.

[he_the_great]

immudium, I don't really see a promise in that statement. He may just end up learning C and try to help out, then find that he shouldn't be b_tching. :)

_txf_ I realize you are trying to say it isn't just thrown together, but isn't why you describe exactly that, a work _around_ limitations of X?.

[deanjo]

Careful about those empty promises. We already have enough amateur C programmers making noise and spewing out vaporware.


That's been going on since the dawn of PC's.;) If places like source forge would actually clean house of dead / non-existant projects then it would making searching for crap alot easier. On that note I really wish sourceforge and the likes would move projects that have not been touched in a year plus to a separate repo called abandonware and projects that never got started beyond creating project page to vaporware.

Just searching for projects on sourcforge that have been updated with new releases in a year takes the project count from 130547 down to 20263.

[he_the_great]

For the one year thing, I would put that for projects not at stage 4 or 5.

[Pickup]

Careful about those empty promises. We already have enough amateur C programmers making noise and spewing out vaporware.

That's probably true, but you must admit it is very frustrating. Desktop users, gamers and linux advocates (how can you show people how good is Linux if it is still going to look cheaper than windows? Many people here in Italy say "Vista is free too, it comes with the computer itself -not true, but people here think this way-, it's a 'world standard' and ad it features a better look") are desperately waiting for good 3d on linux and can do nothing themself because they can't code, and if they can they are not skilled enough or have no spare time.

It's frustrating.

[suacy]

Phoronix: X.Org 7.4 To Lose Ovals

It's six months late and X.Org 7.4 still hasn't shipped as its being held up on the release of X-Circle 7.1. X-Circle is a new architecture for drawing circles on the screen.

An X developer commented on the mailing list announcement:

"We have to cut out ovals because circles really are perfect ovals and we won't do anything less than perfect. How could we? Drawing circles on a screen that's made up of little squares takes some genius. And that's why X developers are smarter than the rest of the world. I mean, come on, how many people really understand how X works? "

"It's really a whole new paradigm for curves on the screen. And we all like to look at curves on the screen, am I right?" said another X developer, presumably with a wink and a nudge.

[TechMage89]

XD That would be Monty Python and the Quest for the Xorg 7.4 Release, right?

[meden]

...
It is not a simple task to add these two things to a driver as can clearly be seen by the current debacle. Asking ati to provide their own might take even longer than waiting for dri2.

Of course. But AMD is not a part-time group of programmers; ATI began printing Tux on their boxes: maybe it is time to divert a couple more of engineers from Windows to Linux.


besides I don't get what the big deal is with having videos mapped nicely to a compiz cube. Sure it is neat (and was things that made me go wow when compiz first came out) but even with nvidia there are downsides e.g. running xv with an opengl compositor does not vsync xv also I have noticed that with compositing enabled the video quality is reduced (besides the vsync issue).
As in my previous post, I can survive without Compiz, but a compositor is becoming a desktop standard: this is a fact (Vista, OSX, KDE4, Gnome - altough this one through XRender), and if Linux wants gain users it (he? :)) has to consider it.
IMHO, of course.

[Vighy]

Of course. But AMD is not a part-time group of programmers; ATI began printing Tux on their boxes: maybe it is time to divert a couple more of engineers from Windows to Linux.

Not so vital, since linux and windows drivers share 95% of the code...



As in my previous post, I can survive without Compiz, but a compositor is becoming a desktop standard: this is a fact (Vista, OSX, KDE4, Gnome - altough this one through XRender), and if Linux wants gain users it (he? :)) has to consider it.
IMHO, of course.

Linux is not responsible for Xorg faults. Linux is the kernel. FreeBSD users have to face the same problems.

And linux is not a company!!!

[deanjo]

ATI began printing Tux on their boxes:


Has anybody actually seen this yet?

[meden]

Not so vital, since linux and windows drivers share 95% of the code...


I know... but it seems that this fact does not is enough to ensure same features on Linux and Windows drivers.


Linux is not responsible for Xorg faults. Linux is the kernel. FreeBSD users have to face the same problems.


Never said that. I wrote "Linux" meaning a generic distribution (kernel + apps, not necessarily completely open source), as in common practice. Next times I'll try to be more pedantic.
I did not mentioned FreeBSD because it is not my OS, and anyway fglrx for FreeBSD does not exists at all (at least on the official site).


And linux is not a company!!!

Again, I never said that. If you refer to gaining users, I stress the word users, not customers. I'm not an integralist: closing ourselves in a ivory tower does not help spreading our ideals.

[TechMage89]

Linux may not be a company, or a complete operating system, if we want to be totally mad literalists. However the GNU/Linux/Xorg/GNOME/KDE/Xfce/what-have-you-software-stack, if it wants to be an effective replacement for closed source stacks (i.e. Windows, OSX, etc.), it needs to have comparable features. Fully functional compositing is an important thing, and these driver debacles are really slowing that down.

[Melcar]

Linux may not be a company, or a complete operating system, if we want to be totally mad literalists. However the GNU/Linux/Xorg/GNOME/KDE/Xfce/what-have-you-software-stack, if it wants to be an effective replacement for closed source stacks (i.e. Windows, OSX, etc.), it needs to have comparable features. Fully functional compositing is an important thing, and these driver debacles are really slowing that down.

I don't think they want to "replace", but rather offer an alternative. Still, even if they just want to be an alternative, they need to have similar features and functionality, even if it works differently at the end.

[yotambien]

OK, I give up.

Am I _really_ the only one who doesn't give a rat ass about cubes on my screen? Why is THAT so important to you? Do you really use your computer to do some WORK? Or _even_ if you use it to play games, watch movies or download porn, does it really matter that much whether you do all those things via a compositing desktop interface? How can it be that day after day people is complaining about _insert_driver_here_ not allowing them to do crap projected on a cube? And they pathetically smash their heads against their screens while claiming to have been eagerly waiting for months!

Ah, no, please. Don't even try to argue about the 'benefits' of the cube for your productivity. I've heard them, as well as I've heard the 'selling Linux' bullshit. I don't care if people use Windows, MacOS, FreeBSD or whatever they feel like, and it is not my objective in life to convince anybody about using any particular OS. Do you guys also try to convince your pals about which particular microwave they should buy? (in that case I'd like to hear, so I know what to avoid, by the way).

What I DO care is about being able, with my OS of choice, to open a website or pdf file and scroll down lighting fast without my CPU revving up as if I was recompiling the fucking kernel. About watching a movie without even noticing my laptop's got a fan. About being able to play a 9 (nine!) years old game at good, constant frame rate and decent quality without a glitch. About suspend/hibernate, about attaching an external monitor without even hearing the slightest complain, about not having to hard reboot from time to time because the stupid video driver decided to go crash...

But cubes...who gives a f_u_c_k about them?

[madman2k]

compositing has also other benefits, like lowering the CPU load or being able to use AWN.

[FunkyRider]

OK, I give up.
But cubes...who gives a f_u_c_k about them?

You think saying shit and bashing people will give you any fucking credit? If you don't like it, go away! Play with your little pathetic old games and some, but don't post here!

DRI-2 failed to do what it supposed to do. That IS THE TOPIC OF THIS POST! Don't just come up with random shit and purpose that you have a point! Everyone has a point!

We are talking about DRI2, nothing else. Saying it is useless because you don't like the one single aspect of many of the applications of DRI2 benefits us and hence come up with a result that saying anyone who cares about DRI2 is retarded does not make you any smarter!

Just be careful when you posting things, cuz everyone can talk shit and bash people. Grow up!

[yotambien]

You leave me speechless.

[meden]

OK, I give up.

Am I _really_ the only one who doesn't give a rat ass about cubes on my screen? Why is THAT so important to you? Do you really use your computer to do some WORK? Or _even_ if you use it to play games, watch movies or download porn, does it really matter that much whether you do all those things via a compositing desktop interface? How can it be that day after day people is complaining about _insert_driver_here_ not allowing them to do crap projected on a cube? And they pathetically smash their heads against their screens while claiming to have been eagerly waiting for months!

Ah, no, please. Don't even try to argue about the 'benefits' of the cube for your productivity. I've heard them, as well as I've heard the 'selling Linux' bullshit. I don't care if people use Windows, MacOS, FreeBSD or whatever they feel like, and it is not my objective in life to convince anybody about using any particular OS. Do you guys also try to convince your pals about which particular microwave they should buy? (in that case I'd like to hear, so I know what to avoid, by the way).

What I DO care is about being able, with my OS of choice, to open a website or pdf file and scroll down lighting fast without my CPU revving up as if I was recompiling the fucking kernel. About watching a movie without even noticing my laptop's got a fan. About being able to play a 9 (nine!) years old game at good, constant frame rate and decent quality without a glitch. About suspend/hibernate, about attaching an external monitor without even hearing the slightest complain, about not having to hard reboot from time to time because the stupid video driver decided to go crash...

But cubes...who gives a f_u_c_k about them?

Welcome, Master of the Universe.
You are right: we all are a bunch of kids happily playing with their cubes and porn sites; sorry if you are alone in this world of sub-minds, what can I do to please you? Maybe can I recompile my kernel appending your name as suffix? Or maybe should I throw away my composited DE switching back to sh (not bash, too new...) an lynx?

***

If you had read carefully (not too much, anyway... it is not needed to understand the basic concepts explained) previous posts, nobody is stating about productivity, work, selling Linux or other things you mentioned. We was talking about the an hypothetical strategy that distribution should/could follow to spread Linux so that people could CHOOSE, even if they won't ever work with a PC. Because yes: the PC can be used even for amusement only.

Please, respect people not (non)thinking/(non)living/working like you and be more polite.

[Huenengrab]

Am I _really_ the only one who doesn't give a rat ass about cubes on my screen? Why is THAT so important to you? Do you really use your computer to do some WORK? Or _even_ if you use it to play games, watch movies or download porn, does it really matter that much whether you do all those things via a compositing desktop interface?
Actually, yes to everything, except the first question.
How can it be that day after day people is complaining about _insert_driver_here_ not allowing them to do crap projected on a cube? And they pathetically smash their heads against their screens while claiming to have been eagerly waiting for months!
That cube must make your life miserable. Let me guess: VIA Chrome-drivers? Maybe some S3-IGP? :)

Ah, no, please. Don't even try to argue about the 'benefits' of the cube for your productivity. I've heard them, as well as I've heard the 'selling Linux' bullshit.
Good for you, really. You're doing your thing, others do what makes them happy. Pretty easy, so far?
I don't care if people use Windows, MacOS, FreeBSD or whatever they feel like, and it is not my objective in life to convince anybody about using any particular OS.
Me neither. My goal is to provide freedom of choice. Real choice. If one deliberately chooses to use OS X/Windows, I couldn't care less.
Do you guys also try to convince your pals about which particular microwave they should buy? (in that case I'd like to hear, so I know what to avoid, by the way).
So, in that case you avoid everything someone recommends to you? Is there any *real* reason to do that?

What I DO care is about being able, with my OS of choice, to open a website or pdf file and scroll down lighting fast without my CPU revving up as if I was recompiling the fucking kernel.
You want compositing then, as it provides an acceleration for your desktop, that the 2D-part of your graphics solution of choice cannot offer. Look at the PDF-viewing abilities of OS X, then look at any uncomposited desktop and tell me the latter is faster than what OS X can do. Sure, it should be possible to enhance the pdf-handling of Evince and whatever KDE is using to display PDF-files, but compositing already does a lot of stuff. If developers find a way to 3d-accelerate the content of an application, you'll be astounded of what is possible.

OpenGL on the desktop is still in its infancy, and in 1-2 years it'll reach puberty, I hope. OS X is ahead of Xorg/Linux/Drivers right now, but that can change.

About watching a movie without even noticing my laptop's got a fan. About being able to play a 9 (nine!) years old game at good, constant frame rate and decent quality without a glitch. About suspend/hibernate, about attaching an external monitor without even hearing the slightest complain, about not having to hard reboot from time to time because the stupid video driver decided to go crash...

Crashing drivers are not a problem of compositing. Having your CPU/IGP cooled by a fan when watching a DVD isn't, neither. The same goes for your external monitor (the only thing missing is a sane interface for xrandr - I tested in with several laptops and it always worked as expected, which was a great experience). Tell your laptop's manifacturer to test their BIOSes with Linux or buy something else. Even my cheap HP Compaq 6720S works out of the box with a all sorts of power saving, including hibernate/suspend. I'm only 10 minutes short of battery, but before using Windows, I can live with that.
But cubes...who gives a f_u_c_k about them?
You should lookup what compositing can do for you, really. You can use a composited window manager without any effects, animations and still enjoy the power of OpenGL on your desktop, because you have more CPU-cycles for applications, that actually need them, while your graphics card draws the desktop. If your IGP heats up, you'll hear the fan - that's the only compromise I can think of, when using something like Compiz.

Please, either grow up and respect other people's dicisions or try it yourself and you'll experience a desktop-experience that doesn't get in your way, without any damage, tearing and whatever a slow, unaccelerated 2D-desktop (even with 2D-acceleration!) has to offer. Also, I have not seen anyone who forces Compiz on you.

[yotambien]

What I DO care is about being able, with my OS of choice, to open a website or pdf file and scroll down lighting fast without my CPU revving up as if I was recompiling the fucking kernel.
You want compositing then, as it provides an acceleration for your desktop, that the 2D-part of your graphics solution of choice cannot offer. Look at the PDF-viewing abilities of OS X, then look at any uncomposited desktop and tell me the latter is faster than what OS X can do. Sure, it should be possible to enhance the pdf-handling of Evince and whatever KDE is using to display PDF-files, but compositing already does a lot of stuff. If developers find a way to 3d-accelerate the content of an application, you'll be astounded of what is possible.

I'm completely ignorant about what OS X can do about pdf. I don't know either whether the superior capabilites you mention are due to the compositing part or also something else. What seems clear is that as of now compositing is not an advantage in this respect in Linux land. Actually it is not hard to find in this forum comments about degraded 2D performance when using compiz.



About watching a movie without even noticing my laptop's got a fan. About being able to play a 9 (nine!) years old game at good, constant frame rate and decent quality without a glitch. About suspend/hibernate, about attaching an external monitor without even hearing the slightest complain, about not having to hard reboot from time to time because the stupid video driver decided to go crash...
Crashing drivers are not a problem of compositing. Having your CPU/IGP cooled by a fan when watching a DVD isn't, neither. The same goes for your external monitor [...]

Those issues are indeed not related to compositing, that's precisely why I mentioned them as a counterpart of what it seems to be the general preoccupations around here. On the other hand, though, the ridiculous majority of times my computer crashes on me has to do with some video problem. Putting my whole computing environment--this is, the part I interact with--on top of an unreliable infrastructure is a good recipe to obtain an unstable system.

I actually have played with compiz or whatever it was called two years ago. Neat tricks, wow effect, next page. I too had heard about offloading the burden of drawing the desktop and applications to the GPU. By then it certainly didn't offer any advantage--quite the opposite. Judging from what nowadays people is posting it doesn't seem to have changed that much, regardless the graphics card.

Sure, the day that having a compositing desktop really means something more than having a bunch of lame effects, I'll buy it. "The PDF-viewing abilities of OS X" and "the power of OpenGL" of yours are rather loose--although you may be right, of course. What abilities? What can OpenGL actually do for the regular user? Is that now or in the uncertain future? Less CPU cycles, how many less? Are you really noticing some improved performance? Any benchmarks around? (These are real questions, not rhetoric).

Please, respect people not (non)thinking/(non)living/working like you and be more polite.

That's a fair comment. However, more than the occasional rant, I personally find terribly more annoying the constant noise introduced by people who never seem to get tired of whining and moaning about the same thing over and over. Especially when the object of their frustration is rather pointless and self-contained--i.e. compositing not working means compositing not working, nothing else; it doesn't preclude them to do their stuff on their computers.

[Redeeman]

What can OpenGL actually do for the regular user? Is that now or in the uncertain future? Less CPU cycles, how many less? Are you really noticing some improved performance? Any benchmarks around? (These are real questions, not rhetoric).
.
What it can do is offer 100% smooth moving of windows, and some(mostly) useless effects. the only real downtoearth reason is the smooth window moving.

[curaga]

What it can do is offer 100% smooth moving of windows, and some(mostly) useless effects. the only real downtoearth reason is the smooth window moving.
Well, my exprience of it exactly the opposite - when compositing is enabled, window movement goes from perfect to laggy. But I keep it on for the effects, I like the transparency.

Oh, and Intel gpu here, so not driver issue anyway.

[jojo_beef]

compositing has also other benefits, like lowering the CPU load or being able to use AWN.

Direct rendering to redirected windows is also important for running 3D Windows apps (e.g. Google SketchUp) in Wine.