LinuxGames has a QuakeCon recap...

[Svartalf]

One of the key take away items here would be:


Question: What are your current views on the Linux situation [...]?

Answer: I can’t say I have really high hopes for it. If Quake Live does well, Mac is our next target on that, but I would not be shocked if we wind up with a Linux target on there. It’s an under served community [...] and I’m happy to see Quake Live there. It is unlikely that the big titles [Wolfenstein, Rage, Doom 4] will have anywhere near simultaneous releases. If one of the guys internally says I want to go port to Linux on my weekend or whatever, I’ll be supportive of that, but it’s not something we’re probably going to devote company resources to on there.

The bright spot for Linux on gaming might be Android, mobile space. There’s still no real sign that that’s going to take off, but if it does that could be a significant and useful thing. People wrote about the death of PC gaming, but PC has problems relative to the consoles, but all of those problems that the PC has are just an order of magnitude worse on the Linux space. So it’s not really a good target.

Every year or so somebody comes up with or plans some Linux-based set-top box that has gaming features, and it never really amounts to anything, and I don’t see any conditions that are going to be forcing that to change in the future. There are certainly aspects of it that I would like, there’s Linux on my flight computer, it’s a good tool for a lot of things. And it might make a useful tool, more so than being Linux, there’s nothing that I think Linux would bring to a console operating system, but there is something that open source would bring to it: those two days that I spent frustrated about my deadlock against Microsoft’s video codec on there I’m sure could’ve been solved much more rapidly if all of it was actually completely open. But there’s nothing that really bothers me about Microsoft or some of these operating system levels there; they’re done competently. Linux would probably bring more trouble than benefits to those things. If the world changed and there was a huge uptake of Linux on PC’s all over the place, it’d be nice, I wish the platform well, but it’s not even on our radar right now for our current projects.


(The following is representative of MY views and does not reflect any entities' views such as LGP (for which I have a tag on my name here in this forum)...)

Rage will happen for us, but only on their time- and WE, the people out there using Linux, have only ourselves to blame.

Why do I say this?

Each time you lot goes and bitches about the "age" of a given game or compares the price of the Windows version versus the Linux one and bitches about that you do yourselves and everyone else a serious disservice. We're being watched. And this is the results of some of that sort of thing.

Spare all of us the "more money" line, folks- it's not valid, really. Do you think iD cares about a piddling 1000-2000 users' worth of money? In their minds, that's about all they think they can sell based off of what people can publicly see and the past performances we've given them in this area (Q3:A only sold 200 copies for the official Linux version because of the kinds of thinking I've seen espoused in these forums...)- which makes it not worth their while. The main reason he's been doing Linux titles is that it made sense to make the stuff cross platform and we were an underserved market. Unfortunately for us, we also seem to be an arrogant and ungrateful one as well, presuming that we're entitled to stuff.

You're NOT their customer. At best, you're a user of their software if you're using one of their official or unofficial platforms they've chosen to target.

Their customer is the publisher.

The publisher's customer is the retailer.

When you buy from a retailer, they don't care about what OS you're running- they're selling you a little box with a bit of paper and a bit of plastic in it, that purportedly does something when it is stuck into a Windows or MacOS based machine or a console.

So we've got over 30 million users worldwide. Great.

How many of that are willing to buy games? Hundreds? Thousands?

If it's not the same scope and scale as the Mac crowd has been (and we're not there, gang, because of that sense of entitlement we all seem to have here...) they're NOT going to be interested, being a seriously underserved community and all. They've got to see a return on things and for most players, they're not seeing anything except a LOSS from making stuff for us.

What we've shown is that we're not interested in buying games- and in a manner that leads people like iD to not consider us being on the radar and like Epic who's delayed the release now some 10 months if we even SEE the thing in the case of UT3.

Spare me conspiracy theories of Microsoft. Sure, they might have had SOME hand in Unreal not being in our hands- but it's unlikely all the same.

We're our own worst enemy, if you honestly want to know the truth. This is the fruits, folks, of the "it's too expensive", or "it's too old", or "that tanked" lines of thought and the resultant actions.

You run Linux. WHY would you ever want to run a Windows title?
In the infancy of things right now, WHY would you ever commit an infringement on a given title?

Because you can? Because you can't be bothered to hold off for a better situation or to get an actual native binary? Because the game's "too cool" and you can't stand not being able to run it?
Because you don't think the game's worth the price, either because the Windows version is cheaper than the Linux version or "you've already bought it"?

Each time you use WINE for a contemporary game you vote for Windows, even if we're as large a userbase as we think we are.

Each time you buy a Windows SKU and "convert" it to Linux when there was an official Linux version, you make a vote for Windows.

Each time you choose to make an infringement of a current selling Linux title, you're actually HURTING things- yes, I know it's a no-sale, but the problem is when the "no-sales" comprise what would have possibly made for a break-even or a profit sufficient to get the next and cooler title that might have sold, you defeat yourselves. The people doing the infringements seem to think it was worth spreading around- but not worth enough to buy. Each time someone does this, it gives the impression, right or wrong, that we aren't interested in buying games. Moreover, it lends the impression, right or wrong, that we're more interested in infringing upon their rights that paying the money for things...

Look well at this folks. This is the fruits of all of our labors here.

Just at the moment we're winning one fight for things, we're losing it for at least the next 3-5 years or more on the gaming front.

Because of the things I've just said.

I hope all of the people that are guilty of the aforementioned things are PROUD of themselves. They're succeeding in doing for Microsoft what they couldn't do otherwise- deep sixing gaming on Linux for some time to come.

[Dragonlord]

Are you finished with the lame ranting? Sorry to say this but it's a long time since I read such a garbage. Over at the Escapists there's a nice article about "game industries lies" or let's call it "excuses". People who do not support a platform and then go moan about the platform not having users is hypocritical. What we need is "action" and "solutions" not "excuses" and "fighting-problems-instead-of-solving-them". Sure Linux is not the same mass as Windows but if any minority ( no matter how small or big ) on Earth would be genocided would you call this "correct" or "their own fault"? Here it's the same. The AAA companies fight with daggers and swords against Linux so what we need are people taking up the weapons and fighting back with solutions instead of running from them. Attacking the common user unable to change something is plain utterly wrong.

[Svartalf]

Are you finished with the lame ranting?

After seeing what has happened and why, I don't think it's as lame as you're making it out to be. I'm just having a bad day, I guess. It's still a problem with the people that have posted (You're NOT one of them, mind... :D) in the forums in the past. We seem to have a contingent that seem to think they're entitled to games and that we matter right at the moment to the studios.


Sorry to say this but it's a long time since I read such a garbage. Over at the Escapists there's a nice article about "game industries lies" or let's call it "excuses". People who do not support a platform and then go moan about the platform not having users is hypocritical.


I believe that was what I was railing at. People that don't support the platform and we're not talking about the studios. :D

And I'd hesitate to call it "garbage"- just look in the forums at things that were said in the LGP DRM thread and elsewhere in the Games section. I posted what I posted because I do know something about why Mr. Carmack stated what he did at QuakeCon- I've actually worked with the man in the past on other projects... I know what actually happened with Quake3:Arena for the Linux and Windows versions. And as someone wise once said, those who fail to understand history are doomed to repeat it. We're doing the same silly decisions as a community over and over again.


What we need is "action" and "solutions" not "excuses" and "fighting-problems-instead-of-solving-them".


I'm trying to do that in the other thread, actually... :D

And it's not excuses, unfortunately. What I've said is based off of watching this for about a decade going now.


The AAA companies fight with daggers and swords against Linux so what we need are people taking up the weapons and fighting back with solutions instead of running from them. Attacking the common user unable to change something is plain utterly wrong.

Unfortunately, it's not that the companies are fighting us as much as some of the antics of the people I called out are leading them to believe that we're irrelevant- and then the people in question keep bitching about not having any good titles and going and doing the same things to cause the feedback loop we're in to start all over again. I've watched it happen for the Linux community for the last decade (Yes...decade...I've been a user and developer for much longer than that, really- just not in the games space save for the last four to five...). You may not see it because you're a late comer, but it's all the same- same crap, different year.

And the common user being unable to change something is bunk as well- if my rant's "garbage" your using that line makes your counter one just as much so... They're able to change a LOT of things- they just don't know or realize that they've got all sorts of power.

For example...

The RIAA and their member companies that they represent are only able to do the crap they do right now because they're flush with cash from people buying their garbage. Each person infringing or buying their stuff perpetuates the network effect that put them into this financial power they have. Not buying their stuff would be a good answer, because most of it's tripe anyhow.

But people keep buying and infringing all the same- all the while they keep buying laws that erode all of our rights we had in the past. All the while they keep bullying people that don't even use their stuff, accusing them of "downloading" even when they don't even HAVE a computer to download. All with that money we keep putting in their pockets.

In this case, if we were to use your position you just espoused, you'd say they were unable to change things (This is your own words that you chose, Dragonlord...)- that we just have to live with the reality of it all. You and I both know that this isn't the case- and more and more people are going with Indie bands for their music listening as they're better and they don't have the same strings attached as the RIAA labels' performers' stuff does.

Powerless/unable to change is facing a tornado or a hurricane at the moment the storm arrives or being in an earthquake.

Anything else is a choice up to that point.

It's no different with games, really. THAT is what my rant was directed towards. Forgive me if I wasn't clear with it- I'm very frustrated upon reading what John had to say about all of this morning after trying to get things better for so long with people working counter to what honestly needed to happen. We need to have two things happen to fix this.

I'm working on the answers in one of them- which is asking my potential users/customers what they actually WANT and trying to sort through the expectations and give them things that will be appealing to them. I hope to have the deals on a few here shortly. If so, I'd consider that a win. I'm hoping to actually kick-start a lively Indie space where it really does work for them to make cross-platform/Linux-only titles with what all I'm doing, in addition to bringing some cool niche and Indie games over.

The other is to work at trying to get people to realize that they're not so important as they think they are to the big players. That the griping about Linux being such a large user base does not map to the things they're seeing in addition to it all.

Why make a Linux version if the WINE version "will do", even if it's a poor answer for us? There's no good reason for them to do anything but Windows titles- and we keep buying the Windows titles to run under WINE, especially when there were native clients that got kiboshed by the publisher (WoW is a good example of this...), which sends the message that it's okay. But, yet, everyone keeps saying that this isn't okay. So, which is it? And it's not unable to choose as you describe it. Yes, choosing to not play might be unpalatable, but if you play you tell them it's okay to make more Windows clients.

Why make a Linux version when the Linux versions of other games are getting pirated 5 to 1 over purchases? This isn't discussing their reasons (Which have been hashed out over and over elsewhere and while I don't agree with much of any of their reasons, it's still their thinking the users seem to be using...) this is discussing that ratio. With those sorts of numbers, if you're a studio doing Windows games, would YOU do a version in that space, knowing what they're doing right now? I sure as Hell wouldn't.

In both of those cases, and in what I ranted about, it's not that people can't change things. They can- they're just choosing to not do so and then mouthing off about everyone snubbing Linux and all.

[Svartalf]

You know what, Dragonlord...

Afrer re-reading it all, I think we're both right, but both taking a bit too extreme a position.

You stated you're a developer. Are you with a studio?

If so, what kind of title are you working on and what state is it in? Would they be interested in an additional developer helping make more than the rendering code (you're obviously a GL guy... ;)) work on a purely royalty basis for the sales of the Linux titles?

If not, are you working on an actual title? If so, would you like some assistance on the title? If so, I'm game if you're willing to take my bitchy backside on with you. ;) If not, I may still have publishing contacts to get the title in the channel for you without having to pay that "price" many other studios do.

We need to quit having people do the things I've bitched about.

But, perhaps, I need to, now that I've got it off my chest proper, drop it (unless we want to keep debating the subject...).

And, perhaps, we both ought to fully step up to the plate and do what you propose. I've already got the start of it going on several fronts. What do you have to offer as well? :D

[Dragonlord]

I've got nothing against a constructive discussion. After all this puts mature people aside fro crybabies.

I'm with you what goes for the garbage out there being it now in music or games. I'm also for indie bands or in this case indie developers and they are what I work on a solution for. I do not think that people have a chance out there. The reason for my point is that making a game involves a couple of things starting with an engine over getting a full team assembled down to distribution and finally support. What goes for distribution and support this can be boiled down to simple things or provided by the community. It's therefore not the stumble stone. The main problem are the former two. A useful engine ( and I fiddled around with a couple of free engines before I decided to do what I do now ) with AAA quality costs a hell of bucks. This prevents creative people and indies from getting an innovative game up and running. What goes for the consumers I do not think that they have a lot of choices. You can not go and buy a Linux game since the clients are lacking or not existing at all. You can not buy the Windows game but the big mass of casual gamers takes what is on the shelf and most of them have a Windows machine ( with preinstalled OS ). So not buying those games ( or pirating them as another viable but not problem solving solution ) by the pro Linux people is not going to put a noticeable dent in their income stream. This is why I consider the customers ( those in minority ) helpless and why I think it's not fair to shout at them. Granted some are the gimme-free people who pirate anything but they do this also for Windows games. They are anyways not going to change and in my world view they are marked as "calculated losses". Instead of shouting at them I prefer to rally up those who have the skills and the will do do something.

I had been a bit harsh at you in my post. Guess I had a bad day too ( yeah, Saturday... this IS a bad day for me ). I can understand the points of you two ( you and John ). I do anyways no more expect the big companies to get the hang on Linux. I'm confident that the indies have to win this war before the big companies start to venture there.

About me I'm indie. I do not have an official studio although I attach my work to a limited partnership company I'm in which is in the hand of my family. I'm currently working on two projects. The first one is writing an AAA grade game engine with full cross platform support and a new approach on maintenance ( what I call OS Type or Run-Time Modularity ) under the GPL. The main goal is to give creative people an engine which gives them access to the needed firepower to turn their visions into reality without having to deal with the behemoths game engines became over time. The second project is an entire game build on this engine where I want to take a step away from the mainstream crap jolted at gamers. I started out the project under the promise to make it a free game ( sort of make-yourself-known title ) so I run it as a community project ( but I kept the option open to go commercial should I ever get a real team up ). I started the work on the individual projects ( including not mentioned ones ) roughly 3 years ago. Before that I did modding and messed with engines to learn how they work. So my main work is the game engine at the time being. I set the goal to get it out this year. That's my contribution to solving one of the problems with Linux gaming.

[deanjo]

NEWSFLASH!!!!

1) Apple users bitched an complained just as loud and as verbose as linux users and they are getting games now.

2) Windows/Mac users suffer from greater piracy then linux, but yet they get games.

3) Saying buying a game for wine is a vote for windows is a cop out. EA started using cider and games started being ported faster NATIVELY to OS X then at any time in it's history from other companies. Next gen are all going to be native.

4) Lately, anytime a closed source developer has asked the opensource community to make a accomodation for the closed source community they have responded with a "f*** you" response. It's a game of give and take. Something the FOSS community seems to have forgotten. Establish your marketshare before making demands.

5) What there is for piracy on linux games, sorry to say this but it is TRUE, is because the games ARE overpriced but more importantly for the mass is the ONLY way they can get them. Piracy of games on linux is more from lack of availability then it is the "screw you, I'll take it for free"

6) Linux with it's inherant moving target makes it a PITA to ensure a working product across the vast selection of implementations out there. Perfect example is X. Christ there is a new memory management every week it seems. Submit the code, next week pull the code.

7) Developers have a fallback that they can call upon with Win/OS X. You don't have to post a question in a mailing list hoping it didn't get lost in the kerfuffle of 10.000 other mailing questions.

Sorry but these are reality checks. Out of everything I probably use Windows the least, I keep it around for 2 reasons, 3dsmax and gaming. 90% of the time I'm in OS X or linux (I'm not a big gamer, more on development (for myself or clients usually). I DO talk to commercial developers on a daily basis and the above reasons are what I get thrown back at me the most from them when I ask "Any plans for a linux port?" .

[xav1r]

One of the key take away items here would be:



(The following is representative of MY views and does not reflect any entities' views such as LGP (for which I have a tag on my name here in this forum)...)

Rage will happen for us, but only on their time- and WE, the people out there using Linux, have only ourselves to blame.

Why do I say this?

Each time you lot goes and bitches about the "age" of a given game or compares the price of the Windows version versus the Linux one and bitches about that you do yourselves and everyone else a serious disservice. We're being watched. And this is the results of some of that sort of thing.

Spare all of us the "more money" line, folks- it's not valid, really. Do you think iD cares about a piddling 1000-2000 users' worth of money? In their minds, that's about all they think they can sell based off of what people can publicly see and the past performances we've given them in this area (Q3:A only sold 200 copies for the official Linux version because of the kinds of thinking I've seen espoused in these forums...)- which makes it not worth their while. The main reason he's been doing Linux titles is that it made sense to make the stuff cross platform and we were an underserved market. Unfortunately for us, we also seem to be an arrogant and ungrateful one as well, presuming that we're entitled to stuff.

You're NOT their customer. At best, you're a user of their software if you're using one of their official or unofficial platforms they've chosen to target.

Their customer is the publisher.

The publisher's customer is the retailer.

When you buy from a retailer, they don't care about what OS you're running- they're selling you a little box with a bit of paper and a bit of plastic in it, that purportedly does something when it is stuck into a Windows or MacOS based machine or a console.

So we've got over 30 million users worldwide. Great.

How many of that are willing to buy games? Hundreds? Thousands?

If it's not the same scope and scale as the Mac crowd has been (and we're not there, gang, because of that sense of entitlement we all seem to have here...) they're NOT going to be interested, being a seriously underserved community and all. They've got to see a return on things and for most players, they're not seeing anything except a LOSS from making stuff for us.

What we've shown is that we're not interested in buying games- and in a manner that leads people like iD to not consider us being on the radar and like Epic who's delayed the release now some 10 months if we even SEE the thing in the case of UT3.

Spare me conspiracy theories of Microsoft. Sure, they might have had SOME hand in Unreal not being in our hands- but it's unlikely all the same.

We're our own worst enemy, if you honestly want to know the truth. This is the fruits, folks, of the "it's too expensive", or "it's too old", or "that tanked" lines of thought and the resultant actions.

You run Linux. WHY would you ever want to run a Windows title?
In the infancy of things right now, WHY would you ever commit an infringement on a given title?

Because you can? Because you can't be bothered to hold off for a better situation or to get an actual native binary? Because the game's "too cool" and you can't stand not being able to run it?
Because you don't think the game's worth the price, either because the Windows version is cheaper than the Linux version or "you've already bought it"?

Each time you use WINE for a contemporary game you vote for Windows, even if we're as large a userbase as we think we are.

Each time you buy a Windows SKU and "convert" it to Linux when there was an official Linux version, you make a vote for Windows.

Each time you choose to make an infringement of a current selling Linux title, you're actually HURTING things- yes, I know it's a no-sale, but the problem is when the "no-sales" comprise what would have possibly made for a break-even or a profit sufficient to get the next and cooler title that might have sold, you defeat yourselves. The people doing the infringements seem to think it was worth spreading around- but not worth enough to buy. Each time someone does this, it gives the impression, right or wrong, that we aren't interested in buying games. Moreover, it lends the impression, right or wrong, that we're more interested in infringing upon their rights that paying the money for things...

Look well at this folks. This is the fruits of all of our labors here.

Just at the moment we're winning one fight for things, we're losing it for at least the next 3-5 years or more on the gaming front.

Because of the things I've just said.

I hope all of the people that are guilty of the aforementioned things are PROUD of themselves. They're succeeding in doing for Microsoft what they couldn't do otherwise- deep sixing gaming on Linux for some time to come.

Burned out and jaded arent we this morning? :D See? Thats what occurs when you try to sell games on a platform only suited for network servers. :)

[Chris]

4) Lately, anytime a closed source developer has asked the opensource community to make a accomodation for the closed source community they have responded with a "f*** you" response. It's a game of give and take. Something the FOSS community seems to have forgotten. Establish your marketshare before making demands.
I'd like to see proof of this. Many system libraries are put under the LGPL (or even a less restrictive) license, because people felt the GPL was too strict. This has allowed closed source developers to use them without issues. Quite a few people use closed source graphics drivers to power the closed source games, as well. Users and hackers (the good kind) give self support for closed source products, and welcome input from their developers.

6) Linux with it's inherant moving target makes it a PITA to ensure a working product across the vast selection of implementations out there. Perfect example is X. Christ there is a new memory management every week it seems. Submit the code, next week pull the code.
None of which should have a significant negative effect on applications (in fact, I'd wager that such management changes are for making applications run *better*). Applications/games just need to code to the APIs they've selected.. ABI compatibility has been a non-issue with most libs for a while now, and changing the underlying implementation doesn't affect standard APIs.

[Svartalf]

1) Apple users bitched an complained just as loud and as verbose as linux users and they are getting games now.


They also BOUGHT what was offered to them at what prices it was FIRST- we're not. Not a valid remark, deanjo- and you know it.


2) Windows/Mac users suffer from greater piracy then linux, but yet they get games.


Numbers are larger but the ratios are MUCH smaller. They don't HAVE five to one ratio.


3) Saying buying a game for wine is a vote for windows is a cop out. EA started using cider and games started being ported faster NATIVELY to OS X then at any time in it's history from other companies. Next gen are all going to be native.


If that were the case, deanjo, why don't we see the stuff for us- cider's intrinsically winelib for MacOS. Since we don't, that's a NULL argument. Transgaming's been flogging the abstraction lib play for Linux and MacOS for some time now. If they're doing it for MacOS, why can't they do it for Linux? Because of the shifting target perception? Heh... It's not hard at all to do it and you're using the same tools for MacOS in the large.


4) Lately, anytime a closed source developer has asked the opensource community to make a accomodation for the closed source community they have responded with a "f*** you" response. It's a game of give and take. Something the FOSS community seems to have forgotten. Establish your marketshare before making demands.


Actually, what they've done is asked for unrealistic things in many cases. What they asked for was intrinsically asking Microsoft to open up Windows to use an analogous thing- DRM is a problem. And it's not been a "f*** you" that they've gotten as much as a "no way- that's not how things get done" and then a counter proposal was given. LGPL is one of those "concessions" that was given. There's been others. And this has less to do with the FOSS community saying anything of that nature (considering that a game doesn't run afoul of a lot of this) and more to do with perceived dollar amounts.


5) What there is for piracy on linux games, sorry to say this but it is TRUE, is because the games ARE overpriced but more importantly for the mass is the ONLY way they can get them. Piracy of games on linux is more from lack of availability then it is the "screw you, I'll take it for free"


Won't argue that, but in the same breath, they're cutting their nose off to spite their face- which is what I was getting at.


6) Linux with it's inherant moving target makes it a PITA to ensure a working product across the vast selection of implementations out there. Perfect example is X. Christ there is a new memory management every week it seems. Submit the code, next week pull the code.


Okay. You need to just DROP that FUD. It's not at all hard to target that "moving target" as the API is all you should concern yourself with- if it doesn't change semantics and it's use doesn't change, it will work across a wide range of Linux distributions and kernel/X11/etc. revisions out of the gate. How you basically do this is that you pick X11 (which the memory management might cause X11 bugs, but if you're not using X11 and OpenGL...), you use autopackage's autobuild to pin the glibc version to 2.1, you statically link libstdc++, and then the rest can be dynamically or statically linked as needed. At that point you have a stable binary (your game or other code being stable, that is...if it's not there, it's not there for any platform, really) that will run on Debian Woody and most everything else out there.

You've been able to do that now for the LAST SIX OR SO YEARS.


7) Developers have a fallback that they can call upon with Win/OS X. You don't have to post a question in a mailing list hoping it didn't get lost in the kerfuffle of 10.000 other mailing questions.


ROFLMAO! Do you HONESTLY believe that one? Have you EVER relied on that "fallback"? I have. It's not any better than the mailing list answers- and I always seem to find the results I've looked for in a timely manner for the last 12 years now.


Sorry but these are reality checks.


They're nothing of the sort, deanjo.


Out of everything I probably use Windows the least, I keep it around for 2 reasons, 3dsmax and gaming. 90% of the time I'm in OS X or linux (I'm not a big gamer, more on development (for myself or clients usually). I DO talk to commercial developers on a daily basis and the above reasons are what I get thrown back at me the most from them when I ask "Any plans for a linux port?" .

To be sure it's they're what they see with Linux- doesn't make it true or the reality of the matter. The reality is quite a bit different- what's needed is trying to shift the perceptions. Something, I daresay, based on your remarks, you don't even try doing. I get told differing things, really, when I ask. Nothing like what you threw out. I get told the things I keep griping about. Perhaps there's two sides to this, but the reality of the matter is, it's all about the perceptions of the people in question. And Dragonlord's right. You're going to have a fun time of it trying to convince them of anything because of the stuff I've pointed out going on and the perceptions of the things you've pointed out (which are not true, but with the other crap going on you're not going to even get them to listen to you...). We've got to quit worrying about AAA titles from people like Epic and iD (if they make it for us, great, if not, it's just a damn shame...) and go after getting the Indies to make stuff for us.

[Svartalf]

Burned out and jaded arent we this morning? :D See? Thats what occurs when you try to sell games on a platform only suited for network servers. :)

ROFLMAO... Yeah, I was a bit over the edge upon reading what John Carmack had to say on things.

[ivanovic]

1) Apple users bitched an complained just as loud and as verbose as linux users and they are getting games now.


Oh yes, apple users bitched. They bitched a lot. The difference between the bitching by apple users and Linux users is simple:

When apple users were bitching, they were simply not buying the game since there was *no* way to run it. That is at that time (yes, it was before the switch to x86 when EA started shipping eg C&C Generals for mac) they had nothing like wine. When they had no PC beside their mac, they had no way to run the apps. So they did not buy it. Some publishers saw that there is a demand, a group of players who did not buy a single copy. So they started to support it and got a raised profit from it.

For Linux it does look a little different. That is many users do bitch loud. This is identical. What is not identical is that users do buy the game since they either dualboot with Windows or run it in wine. Both were no options for Mac users in the days when they really bitched.

Since the Linux users (at least parts of them) buy the game anyway, even if there is no native binary (no matter if compiled against winelib or how it is done), why should the publishers change their view? How large are the numbers for those Linux users, who would buy the game when it is released natively for Linux and not when it is not? The studios don't see this as a too large cut in their profits, so they don't see a need to change things.

If just those who buy the games to play them using wine would *not* buy unless there is a native binary, this might already help a little. Though the publishers will then probably just say "hey, our sale figures dropped, shame on you pirates!".

The only thing that counts for the big players in the market is money. So far they have no seen that they really make more profit when supporting Linux and they just look at what they think who much they could lose by supporting it. Lose as in "hey, normal copy protection will not work, everyone will pirate it anyway" and "hmm, we have to invest money to port and later on to give support, which callcenter does also give support for Linux without charging insane prices?".


I do understand Svartalf being upset about things since with the current attitude by many players things are unlikely to change. Yes, the prices are rather high compared to windows releases of the same games since those are often in budget range when the Linux binary is out. Even if they (unintentionally) run nicely in wine, you are using a Windows product and thus support the creation of Windows products. Nowaddays PC gaming is largely Windows based. It is sad, but that's the way it is. You don't have too much choice when you want to play those AAA games from the big publishers. The only thing you as players can do is talk to indie studios to offer native ports. They are more likely to be nice to you. Some of those indie games are really nice products and often the price is affordable, too.

Unless maybe a big player like valve makes an offer for Linux and show the other big publishers that there is a big market to conquer things are unlikely to change. That is either many small studios show that they can gain a great profit from supporting those "special" platforms or one of the big players is brave enough to give it a try. I don't think that those ports of "released long ago" games will help a lot to show the big players that there is a market. It will just cater some smaller need for some core Linux users. I really appreciate this, but I do not think it will change the big picture. The players feel that the games are out too late and as such "totally outdated".

[Chris]

If just those who buy the games to play them using wine would *not* buy unless there is a native binary, this might already help a little. Though the publishers will then probably just say "hey, our sale figures dropped, shame on you pirates!".
Followed by "PC gaming is dying, lets focus on consoles!" That'll help. ;)

Unless maybe a big player like valve makes an offer for Linux and show the other big publishers that there is a big market to conquer things are unlikely to change.
id Software, Epic, and Bioware weren't big enough? id has supported Linux for a long time (weren't there Linux ports of the original Doom? and even if it may not be "commercially supported", I'll be surprised if we don't see official native Linux binaries for Rage and Doom4), Epic has supported it since gobbling up what was left of Loki until this UT3 fiasco, and Bioware made at least Neverwinter Nights for Linux (one of the expansions even came with a (broken) Linux installer on-disk), which they were still providing patches for until just last month when they stopped patching the game altogether.

[RobbieAB]

Wine is detrimental to the adoption of Linux by third party developers (i.e. 99% of ALL commercial software) because it allows them to develop for Windows and say to use wine.

This is not a problem of wine itself, but a problem of all compatibility layers. It is often said that the DOS compatibility layer in OS/2 hastened the demise, as many software developers simply developed for DOS, and as a result people were more inclined to buy DOS, as the programs just worked better on it.

[Thetargos]

NEWSFLASH!!!!

1) Apple users bitched an complained just as loud and as verbose as linux users and they are getting games now.
Two observations to this MacOS users point:


Like Svartalf said, these same users (though there has undeniably been piracy as well) did buy the products (not only games, mind you, but apps in general) at whatever price was requested at release.
MacOS users also had the benefit of God Almighty Steve Jobs pouring a hefty sum of cash to get at least some of these games on MacOS (from what I've seen there are rumours stating as much as 1 million per title to some studios). I've not heard some Linux-enthusiast millionaire or company willing to make such an investment (and yes, by that I mean Mandriva, Novell, Red Hat or Mark Shuttleworth)

Edit
Just wanted to clarify that the alleged pour of money from Jobs (or Apple) for games, was with the migration to the x86 architecture.

[me262]

Are you finished with the lame ranting? Sorry to say this but it's a long time since I read such a garbage. Over at the Escapists there's a nice article about "game industries lies" or let's call it "excuses". People who do not support a platform and then go moan about the platform not having users is hypocritical. What we need is "action" and "solutions" not "excuses" and "fighting-problems-instead-of-solving-them". Sure Linux is not the same mass as Windows but if any minority ( no matter how small or big ) on Earth would be genocided would you call this "correct" or "their own fault"? Here it's the same. The AAA companies fight with daggers and swords against Linux so what we need are people taking up the weapons and fighting back with solutions instead of running from them. Attacking the common user unable to change something is plain utterly wrong.
That Escapist article wouldn't be done by Zero Puncuation would it? It sounds like his tone...

I do want to offer my arguments again as well.

- Linux just came on the big-league market for pre-installed computers courtesy of Dell. Windows and Apple have a long lead on us. For simplicity I'll use a running race analogy. MS is using steroids and has now run out. We're starting to see the after effects of that ill-gotten gain (the fact they had to have a commercial to toute Vista SP1 is proof). Apple burst out of the gate, got a good lead, fell flat on their faces, and is now back up and running, trying to catch up to MS. Both MS and Apple are in it for the prize at the end. We've been pacing ourselves, but we're in it for the fun, not the prize (although it doesn't hurt). We expect that MS and Apple will run out of breath and we'll just zoom by them, keeping our pace, with MS and Apple struggling to keep up.
-- I wonder how many analogies can be applied that fit...

- The industry situation definitely is a catch-22. There has to be a market before there can be a market. Some of the small time games may help, but a lot of people are looking for more recent games that they will enjoy. I like the quote about some companies stepping up to the plate, leap of faith and all.

- The main reason that prices are so high on the Linux developed stuff, is that the studios have to try and recoup the prices they paid to get access to the code they ported. The Windows games have been out so long, everyone has been paid fairly thuroughly, and they can afford to drop the price, now that they have recouped their costs.

- There are moral people in the downloading community. Why do you think gamecopyworld has continued to exist? I had to go there all the time because I ran a CD-Less gaming system for some time. Heck, I still have the data stored on an external hard drive on my desk!

- There are people spearheading (and oddly enough, the pun wasn't intended) a drive to change the industry's thinking on the matter, Svartalf is one of them, Icculus is another, but he is being stringed by Epic. I hope to be too once I finish school (Thanks for helping with ideas for my X-platform IDE, Svartalf, I'll be setting it up soon, I'm procrastinating because I don't have my EVDO card set up in my Windows partition yet).

- From what I read on the first post, Carmack may not officially support it anymore, but he won't stop any of his office staff from porting it on their spare time. He's still for it, but I get the feeling it's coming off to him as more of a hassle nowadays it seems. Chances are someone will take him up on that. I know I would.

- The Windows emulation is definitely killing us. What we can't run natively, we can emulate. I'm lobbed into this group because of game popularity. I most likely will be getting Starcraft II, and unless there's a Linux native binary, I will most likely be using Cedega to play with my friends. It's one of those "We'd love it for our system, but we'll settle for second rate emulation". This is causing the numbers to skew very badly, against us. We don't have a relation with the developer or the publisher. We have a relation with the retailer selling us the game. The shop I saw selling Quake 3 for Linux was the only package I saw, and I have not seen a "for Linux" game package after that. I agree we need better distribution.

- I cannot begin to recall all the posts I've seen asking for a linux native binary. A lot of them also say that "if this comes out on linux, I won't need to dual-boot to Windows anymore". This goes back to the leap of faith part. More people will abandon Windows if their favorite games can be made on Linux. Even more piercing is the arguments "The server doesn't count.", "It's leveraging Linux stability for an otherwise unusable game.", "Let the unstable software run on their unstable servers.". These definitely do hurt our image by saying if we can't have it, we don't want it, period. Problem is, someone always does want it, there is a market, see leap of faith. The only way I see it is that it has to be developed in parallel, or it's hardly worth it.

- People can change things, right now. That's the beauty of Linux. You don't like it, you write it. Unfortunately this attitude is also part of the problem.

- There's more... but I'm tired, and it's light out again.

- Svartalf, you have every right to be upset, I am too, but I am not in direct view of your looking glass (I don't know most of the data that you have).

- I think we need to take a step back and survey the situation. What we can do to increase support? (Get the product to the retail store shelves. Any more?)

... not bad for someone up at 6:16a EDT and hasn't gone to bed yet... ^_^

[Malikith]

You know, I am probably very wrong or maybe my thoughts are flawed but I think as a community as a whole we can resolve this whole issue. The issue is not out there as much as its within us already. Meaning, Open Source development. What we need to do is create a cool but simple open source game that can rival the industries best on every front. People migrate to Linux all the time due to Compiz or whatever, but if we could get people to migrate to Linux for that big word, games. We could really dish it out to the industry and ultimately I think we could really get what we want.

Granted, thats alot of work, but I think with proper organization and the "right" people we could have the chemistry and all to build such a game. I know this could go right into another thread of its own but this covers the issue that we have been trying to fight forever now and there just doesn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel thus far.

Just like how Enemy Territory got the attention of the game industry or Counter-Strike. We ultimately could do the same exact thing, infact there are projects out there right now that could pull it off but their development just isn't moving fast enough. I also think the game would have to be Linux and Mac only. If Windows was supported and the game became popular it wouldn't matter if it supported Linux or Mac. It would come back to haunt us and that wouldn't really work. Publicity would be another thing we'd need, without it, well, no one will know about it then haha.

But I'm done ranting and preaching for now, thats just my two cents on how to solve this, we need AAA titles, we need all this and that. I don't think selling small time games that no one really wants to buy is the solution, I think the solution is a game of our own, but who knows I am very likely wrong here. But I'm just not sure what can REALLY work at this point.

[Dragonlord]

@me262:
Nah, it's not ZP. Granted I have the tendency to rant in a similar way ( which is why I got at other places the title "Linux Dragon of quick wit and sharp tongue" ;) ) but this time it's not him. It has been articles on TE about these topics ( not about Linux but the general game dev drama going on ).

@Malikith:
I do not think it is a good solution to make a "Linux only" game. This way we would be locking a software down to Linux as they do lock down games for Windows which would only increase the "elitists" reputation and would hurt us in the long run. No the game and engine in question has to be fully cross-platform and the package has to sport a fat Tux logo. Even if people play it on Windows they get it to know and the see the explicit Tux on it. It's better to have this propaganda than having none of it.

[Malikith]

@me262:
@Malikith:
I do not think it is a good solution to make a "Linux only" game. This way we would be locking a software down to Linux as they do lock down games for Windows which would only increase the "elitists" reputation and would hurt us in the long run. No the game and engine in question has to be fully cross-platform and the package has to sport a fat Tux logo. Even if people play it on Windows they get it to know and the see the explicit Tux on it. It's better to have this propaganda than having none of it.

Why not? I don't think its elitist at all, Frozen Bubble isn't considered elitist for only having a Linux version. Theres nothing wrong with a Linux only version of a piece of software. Infact I didn't even say Linux only I said Linux and Mac, thats NOT locking everyone out. And say if you did support Windows, it wouldn't matter how many Linux logos you stick all over it, people don't care about that, they care about the game, and if they can access the game on Windows, they don't care and won't care.

[Svartalf]

- I think we need to take a step back and survey the situation. What we can do to increase support? (Get the product to the retail store shelves. Any more?)

Heh... The main problem with getting to the brick and mortar level of sales is that most store chains won't deal with the Linux stuff at all. Best Buy's got the XP eeePC 901 models in stock, but not the Linux ones (By the by, I can't see why anyone would want the XP version there- it's bog slow, etc...). To the retail stores, it's another similar SKU and unless they can see a substantive profit to allocate a good chunk of shelving space to delineate Windows, versus MacOS, versus Linux, they're just NOT going to allocate space. A mom-and-pop place might go this route or even go Linux-only in some locales, but the main vendors' worries are their bottom lines- and unless you're going to have them see the community buying something on the order of 5-10 of any given title at 30% or more of their chain, we're not worth the "trouble" we'd bring them.

This would be another facet of the "more money" line of thinking being just about opposite in reality. The moment you throw one of those other OSes in the mix, it convolutes the situation for the publisher (costing them profits...if the gain's not moderately or majorly offsetting the increased expenses...you can do the math there...) and of the retailer (ditto...).

[Svartalf]

Why not? I don't think its elitist at all, Frozen Bubble isn't considered elitist for only having a Linux version. Theres nothing wrong with a Linux only version of a piece of software. Infact I didn't even say Linux only I said Linux and Mac, thats NOT locking everyone out. And say if you did support Windows, it wouldn't matter how many Linux logos you stick all over it, people don't care about that, they care about the game, and if they can access the game on Windows, they don't care and won't care.

The biggest problem with it isn't that, per se. If you're going to accomplish something, you'd better have a seriously kick-ass game to make it barred from Windows to garner enough attention from that crowd to have that work for anything other than showing some small interest in the potential of making a Linux version to get a profit out of it. It'd make sales numbers, but it wouldn't have the same impact, I fear because of the brick-and-mortar situation. Online distribution is a great idea, but there's more than enough gotchas to everything that unless you're as big as Valve already, all you'll do with it is "get by". With the meatspace sales, unless you can show a decently sized positive net effect on their bottom line, you won't show on most store shelves- period. Since we're a small demographic right at the moment (as far as they're concerned...) we make it Linux or Linux/MacOS-only, you're just going to be limited to boutique stores and online sales and just hang just below the radar indefinitely.

[edit]

By the by, I suspect they might actually care. There's a lot of people honestly looking for a better answer- Vista's NOT it and it's putting a big bar towards new machine sales, with people trying to figure out ways of getting XP or looking at "that there Linux thing" (yes...I've fielded LOTS of answers to people lately about it...). They're looking for a way out of the mill MS has set up for everyone. If you could show them that the cool games they're buying right now could be actually moved over and be supported on Linux, they'd be very interested in many cases. Don't let the leet crap going on in forums like [H]ardOCP and elsewhere fool you. If we could have a viable gamer space going on right now, you'd see a LOT of people make the jump because they see what Linux brings to the table. Right now, we don't have one- because of some of what deanjo commented on as perceptions, and every bit of what I commented on as perceptions (and to some extent, reality...)

[Malikith]

By the by, I suspect they might actually care. There's a lot of people honestly looking for a better answer- Vista's NOT it and it's putting a big bar towards new machine sales, with people trying to figure out ways of getting XP or looking at "that there Linux thing" (yes...I've fielded LOTS of answers to people lately about it...). They're looking for a way out of the mill MS has set up for everyone. If you could show them that the cool games they're buying right now could be actually moved over and be supported on Linux, they'd be very interested in many cases. Don't let the leet crap going on in forums like [H]ardOCP and elsewhere fool you. If we could have a viable gamer space going on right now, you'd see a LOT of people make the jump because they see what Linux brings to the table. Right now, we don't have one- because of some of what deanjo commented on as perceptions, and every bit of what I commented on as perceptions (and to some extent, reality...)

Yeah thats true.. I guess I just got a sour taste in my mouth lately due to the latest events and its just kinda gotten to me. Sorry guys, but yeah you're right, the game would need to be very kick ass, which could be done, but it would take a hell of a commitment and I don't know how many guys out there would be willing to make such a commitment for free. Probably not as many as we hope.

But as far as what you're saying about people coming over, yeah, even Wine could partially pull it off to some degree if it could just run some of those games flawlessly, but Wine just isn't a overall solution, its more of a bandaid. I do know exactly what you're talking about though, I've read some Windows gaming forums here and there throughout the months and I see people all the time saying that they would be willing to depart from Windows if they could just get their favorite games, alot of people were saying they wanted Team Fortress 2/Steam then they would. But I don't think that whole Steam coming to Linux thing/rumor is really working out as well as we would had hoped.

[RobbieAB]

Yeah thats true.. I guess I just got a sour taste in my mouth lately due to the latest events and its just kinda gotten to me. Sorry guys, but yeah you're right, the game would need to be very kick ass, which could be done, but it would take a hell of a commitment and I don't know how many guys out there would be willing to make such a commitment for free. Probably not as many as we hope.

Well, there are various teams trying to build games for Linux, but almost all of them are encountering the same problem: Not enough arty people. Technically they can compete, but on the art front they struggle. Looking at the successful open source Linux games, what you see is that they tend to for "cult" style art, and I believe even there, some of them are using professionally done, paid for, art.

What Linux gaming needs if it really want to go that route is people in the Universities which offer Computer Game Design degrees....

[Malikith]

Well, there are various teams trying to build games for Linux, but almost all of them are encountering the same problem: Not enough arty people. Technically they can compete, but on the art front they struggle. Looking at the successful open source Linux games, what you see is that they tend to for "cult" style art, and I believe even there, some of them are using professionally done, paid for, art.

What Linux gaming needs if it really want to go that route is people in the Universities which offer Computer Game Design degrees....

Yeah definitely, I think the weakest link of all this art related stuff is 3d modeling. Good 3d modelers are really really hard to find. Level designers and programmers though are very easy to find. The easiest would probably be level designers when you're speaking of Quake based games. I would fall into the level designer category myself since I have a few years of experience of dealing with GTK Radiant (Been messing with it off and on since 2002 and know how to do pretty much everything there is in Radiant). If I'm considered a level designer, I'm sure everyone and their mother is too.

[Chris]

What we need to do is create a cool but simple open source game that can rival the industries best on every front.
...
I also think the game would have to be Linux and Mac only. If Windows was supported and the game became popular it wouldn't matter if it supported Linux or Mac.
How would you accomplish this? Windows isn't void of open source coders, and there's plenty of Linux coders that aim for the ultimate in portability. Even if the end product itself doesn't support Windows, as long as the source is available you can be sure someone will port it there.

But I tend to agree with Dragonlord on this. Let it run on Windows, but make sure it's clearly "developed for Linux".

Someone mentioned asking Mark Shuttleworth/Canonical to fund such game development. I think that might be a good starting point, but we could also ask companies behind other distributions.. or hell, maybe even IBM, if they want to pitch in. Such a game doesn't have to be free, either. Even if the code was open source/GPL, there's nothing stopping you from selling it for money. Plus if you put the art/media assets under a non-free license, people would still have to buy it to legally get the full game.

Then if such a game is a success, we can start funding more games, and paying other developers/publishers to port their games to Linux as well.

[Dragonlord]

@Malikith:

I have to disagree there. Getting by good coders is hard since most of them do their own thing. 3D modelers are also not the biggest problem to get by. Most troubles are int he 2D department and mapping. Also the quality of course. The good people are often snagged away buy Windows only projects leaving half-hearted people for the other projects which have a good idea and dedicated people but none with the top-notch skills required. Would help if projects could be narrowed down and people clogging into them instead of distributing them over a lot of projects ending up with project teams of a couple of people most of which are not artsy enough.

EDIT: got race-posted :D ... so much for not locking the Mutex ;)

[Thetargos]

Art-wise, the main problem (besides modeling, for which Blender is a God-send) are textures and sounds (effects and music). We have the necessary tools to create good stuff on Linux, we just lack the people (it would seem) to do it in the Open Source model.

Here's a wild thought... There are common interests among and across the different distributions for gaming. Open source and free gaming. Why not bring these people together on board to such an effort like this? Lemme explain myself:


Different distributions (Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Fedora, etc) have people interested in and some times even projects dedicated to games. Fedora calls these SIGs (Special Interest Groups).
These people work on many aspects of the games for the different distributions (package, build, patch, etc).
Since what is lacking the most for generating open source games seem to be art-related people, why not ask people in the art teams of these different distributions and bring them together to a common project? Then, the most critical element missing would be the idea itself for such a game and its type (Action, Adventure, Puzzle, RTS, etc)

The bulk of the work in a game, besides the evident technical problems, seem to be precisely the art-related stuff. And even then there seem to be a lot of people dedicated at seemingly the same tasks (but not necessarily). Take 3D model generation, for example. A person could be a very good modeler, but a lousy mapper (map textures to the actual model), so two different people may be required to work on the same model for finalizing it. The same may apply for textures, where different persons can work on different textures (for example on is better generating furniture and building masks, and other is better at plants and outdoors). The most frequently requested talent for mods and other free games are artists, and since the different distributions have art teams comprised of volunteers, why not check with them if they'd be willing to participate in an open game?

Sorry for the thread hijack... I had created a thread for precisely these kinds of discussions (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6311) a while back.

[RobbieAB]

@Malikith:

I have to disagree there. Getting by good coders is hard since most of them do their own thing. 3D modelers are also not the biggest problem to get by. Most troubles are int he 2D department and mapping. Also the quality of course. The good people are often snagged away buy Windows only projects leaving half-hearted people for the other projects which have a good idea and dedicated people but none with the top-notch skills required. Would help if projects could be narrowed down and people clogging into them instead of distributing them over a lot of projects ending up with project teams of a couple of people most of which are not artsy enough.

EDIT: got race-posted :D ... so much for not locking the Mutex ;)
Again, the versions I heard was that it was getting consistent artwork of a decent standard across the entire project. Textures, cut scenes, video clips, music...

These are graphic design skills, NOT computer nerd skills, and it is getting those across a large project that is hard. The games companies can manage it because they PAY their teams doing it.

Engines? Sure, it's a coding challenge. Modelling? Again, close enough to the coding. Consistent game theme and feel, blending in sound, getting the pacing just right? Face it, most programers can't even begin to to that side of it.

Take Battle of Wesnoth. It's managed to achieve a consistent feel. It adopted it's own look, and the graphics and themeing are consistent, though very simple. I believe they STILL had to pay for some of the artwork, though it was mostly on a private basis, and not project wide. Now imagine a game where the themeing is more complex and bigger in scope? Are you really trying to claim that a bunch of amateurs (which is how most Open Source stuff is done) are going to be able to cope with the challenge in their free time? Vegastrike shows they have serious problems with it...

EDIT: Damn that not locking the mutex...

[Malikith]

How would you accomplish this? Windows isn't void of open source coders, and there's plenty of Linux coders that aim for the ultimate in portability. Even if the end product itself doesn't support Windows, as long as the source is available you can be sure someone will port it there.

But I tend to agree with Dragonlord on this. Let it run on Windows, but make sure it's clearly "developed for Linux".

Someone mentioned asking Mark Shuttleworth/Canonical to fund such game development. I think that might be a good starting point, but we could also ask companies behind other distributions.. or hell, maybe even IBM, if they want to pitch in. Such a game doesn't have to be free, either. Even if the code was open source/GPL, there's nothing stopping you from selling it for money. Plus if you put the art/media assets under a non-free license, people would still have to buy it to legally get the full game.

Then if such a game is a success, we can start funding more games, and paying other developers/publishers to port their games to Linux as well.

Yeah, you could have LGP or something actually make a game even though they just do ports/publish it might prove for at the very least an interesting discussion for them.

My whole point about having a game be Linux/Mac only was just a idea to fight fire with fire. But maybe it would make sense to Windows users to see a runs best on Linux thing or something on it right on the main menu down in the right corner or something. I just think about alot of the Windows users I see on these Windows hardware forums that are so closed minded and how ignorant they are. It just makes me feel like they wouldn't even look at the logo. Thats really where I was coming from on that. I guess you can't say they won't, but you really can't say they will either.

@Malikith:

I have to disagree there. Getting by good coders is hard since most of them do their own thing. 3D modelers are also not the biggest problem to get by. Most troubles are int he 2D department and mapping. Also the quality of course. The good people are often snagged away buy Windows only projects leaving half-hearted people for the other projects which have a good idea and dedicated people but none with the top-notch skills required. Would help if projects could be narrowed down and people clogging into them instead of distributing them over a lot of projects ending up with project teams of a couple of people most of which are not artsy enough.

EDIT: got race-posted :D ... so much for not locking the Mutex ;)

Now here I disagree with you and heres why, lets look at all the open source and free games out there that support Linux. Heres some of the more recent examples, Tremulous, Warsow, World of Padman, Frozen Bubble 2, Urban Terror, all these games have pretty good coding (mostly ioquake3 games but they do have to do some Quake C for sure), but how many of these games actually have really high quality art, well.. World of Padman does, Frozen Bubble 2 does, and Warsow has some good art too.

Warsow though has some good coding as well since they really did rework that Quake 2 engine to death. And without programmers/scripters, well, none of these games would exist. So I think its safe to say theres plenty of "good enough" programmers out there, hell, look around. I mean theres good stuff everywhere I look in the open source world. I can't say I see GREAT artwork all the time though when it comes to Open Source games.

You can have 5000 John Carmacks but if you don't have the artists your project won't go anywhere, it'll just be a engine not a game. So I think its safe to say you just need programmers that are "good enough". Which theres quite a few of those. Sure you could find a crappy modeler anywhere, but if your game doesn't look very good, not really anyone is gonna want to play it even if you are John Carmack himself doing the programming.

Mappers are in abundance though, everytime I look at what projects are looking for are usually modelers or a programmer. They are usually full of level designers. Guys that do textures and stuff though can be hard to find too though, I will agree with you there.

[Dragonlord]

@RobbieAB:
You got to it first. I wanted to mention the lack of consistency myself. It's one thing to have different people work on the same models or map but the main problem is to get it consistent. Successful mod teams have members sticking to the project for long enough to have a consistent look and feel.

@Malikith:
I'm basing my opinion on the observations in the modding scene. This is also free game making in that the mods itself are free to play but not necessary the code. There the situation is that most projects lack coders first then mappers or modelers. Chances are in the indie scene this is the other way 'round but this is how I observe the situation.

[Svartalf]

Now imagine a game where the themeing is more complex and bigger in scope? Are you really trying to claim that a bunch of amateurs (which is how most Open Source stuff is done) are going to be able to cope with the challenge in their free time? Vegastrike shows they have serious problems with it...

Heh... They can do it. But it's a hit-or-miss proposition, RobbieAB. I can manage passable stuff myself- but I'm better at coding than I am at graphic arts stuff. This is the story for most people and is at least part of the source of woe for Vegastrike But, groups like the World of Padman team, the Tremulous team, and a few others show that it's doable all the same. It's just that it's...very difficult...to find people with the level of dedication to do that level of work that aren't already tied up with closed projects in a way that they couldn't help even if they wanted to.

EDIT: Damn that not locking the mutex...

At least you guys know what a mutex is FOR... I know of places (not naming names, no...) that part of the development team think declaring something "volatile" makes operations on int values atomic on at least x86 machines- and mutexes are 'too painful to use'.

[Svartalf]

Sorry for the thread hijack... I had created a thread for precisely these kinds of discussions (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6311) a while back.

Not a problem, Thetargos. The thread needed to be re-pointed out.

I probably ought to mention (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11021) the flip-side of this discussion that I started where we're talking about reaching out to what WILL work from the non-FOSS side of things.

[ivanovic]

Take Battle of Wesnoth. It's managed to achieve a consistent feel. It adopted it's own look, and the graphics and themeing are consistent, though very simple. I believe they STILL had to pay for some of the artwork, though it was mostly on a private basis, and not project wide.

As far as I know (and I am one of the dudes who should ;) ) we did not pay our developers. That is no matter if graphics, music, sounds, campaigns or coding. Most simply did this work since they enjoyed doing it and maybe wanted to show off a little as well. And many did it to simply learn and improve their skill with something that really is fun.

Yes, our graphics are simple compared to some of the modern "everything has to be 3D with HDR, bloom and whatever" games. But personally I think it is more important to have the graphics work for a game. For a turn based strategy games, yes, even for a real time strategy game, I personally prefer 2D graphics since they work better. No problems with adjusting the camera and such, which really annoys me in many modern strategy games. You always have to adjust the camera to see everything.

Still I agree that getting the artwork right is the major problem. But not the graphics are the most critical stuff, music is by far more problematic. Good music requires good instrument samples. And there are basically not too many usable instrument samples out there for free. In fact the good orchestral ones cost a hell of a lot of money. So simply because of this the number of possible contributors in this area is small.

Yes, graphics are a problem, too. But maybe you should just go to the art departments of the universities around you and show them some cool games. Yes, art students do play, too (no matter if male or female, just show them the right games which are fun to play). Make them interested in this stuff and they *want* to produce some artwork. Have a look at how much "fan art" is created for many games out there. Just talk to those people and tell them what you would love to see and when they have something you like, include it in the game. It feels great for them to see their work included and they will produce other stuff. But do *not* explicitly tell them what you want, let them do what they enjoy. Some will love to do portraits, some will love to design story artwork or complete character designs. For students in the area of computer science "open source software" is completely normal and well known. It is even rather common to contribute in projects or to create own projects. In those regards it is *not* normal yet for art students to do so. Once they start to see it as normal helping there, things can change quite fast regarding graphics. But for this you have to show them that you will include their work, that it is not wasted. And do not try to force them too much into one direction like "nah, you can't do character design, but you could design wall textures". This is likely not to work. Eventually they will see that the characters look great, but the surrounding lacks. This will either make those already working on things trying to improve those textures, or new people popping in to help.

Basically everything in open source is about commitment, trying to achieve something and also showing off the own skills. Yes, everybody likes to hear a "hey, great job!" every now and then. Most coders are unlikely to be able to do the artwork stuff themselves. But just got out and talk to some of your (non geek ;) ) friends, maybe they like what they see and want to improve it.

To get back more on topic:

Can this somehow help making Linux a more interesting platform for game developers:

I don't know. That is eg several companies offering commercial apps see problems with Linux. That is when they enter the ring, someone has already stepped up, created a program basically serving the same needs and the company will not sell their prog. As one example take ahead with their Nero suite for Linux. Do you know anyone using this one instead of the open progs like k3b? I don't. For games it could end similar when the open games are just far enough. That is currently the open games mainly lack in the area of artwork. Open source game devs are able to create a good storyline, a good ruleset and stuff. It is mainly the outside presentation where the commercial games benefit from the ability of paying artists for their work. So when the studios see too much competition in the market by products that are completely free, they might be scared that they face the same problem ahead is facing.

[Thetargos]

Not a problem, Thetargos. The thread needed to be re-pointed out.

I probably ought to mention (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11021) the flip-side of this discussion that I started where we're talking about reaching out to what WILL work from the non-FOSS side of things.



I'd guess the same problems would be present (speaking of costs and other stuff) if you shot for creating a totally new and original game initially for Linux and Mac (through LGP and/or RuneSoft). I even used to think that a successful and popular original work might work wonders to bring the attention of the big players... Sort of what Apple's marketing has done for the Mac... Apple has molded itself (after their near demise in the mid '90s) into an icon of desire. The iPod helped a LOT which, if you remember, was originally only available for Mac OS X (Windows machines could interact with it, but only as a mass-storage device). At any rate, I guess what I'm trying to say is: what would have to be done in the Linux world for an original game to become so popular (and native to Mac OS X and Linux, and running in Windows maybe through MinGW, though not initially) that might turn the faces of those big companies towards Linux and more support for Mac. But for that to happen, a great and original idea is required.

[Chris]

what would have to be done in the Linux world for an original game to become so popular (and native to Mac OS X and Linux, and running in Windows maybe through MinGW, though not initially) that might turn the faces of those big companies towards Linux and more support for Mac. But for that to happen, a great and original idea is required.
I don't think it would have to be a super-awesome uber game to do this. But a game that's good enough to fund sequels and/or other games, and build up a cache of cash that can be used to entice other developers into supporting Linux with 0-day binaries and to fund porting of existing AAA games.

Of course, such a thing could take several years, assuming the developers are even successful (no matter how much money you have and regardless of talent, sometimes games just flop..).

[Thetargos]

(no matter how much money you have and regardless of talent, sometimes games just flop..).
Like 3DRealm's DNF? :D

[Dragonlord]

It also helps if developers have access to engines and libraries which do not require a huge Linux coding knowledge to begin with. I know quite some people which do not want to code for Linux since they consider it "too difficult" or "more difficult than Windows" ( which is an obvious miss-understanding... it's the other way 'round in my experience ). If making a Linux version is linked with too much hazzle for the developers they tend to stick to the Windows version. Money rules after all.

[Chris]

I know quite some people which do not want to code for Linux since they consider it "too difficult" or "more difficult than Windows" ( which is an obvious miss-understanding... it's the other way 'round in my experience ).
My experience as well. It's pretty much the same excuse some users give.. "Linux is hard to learn." No, it's not hard, it's just different. Take a person that hasn't bothered learning computers yet, set them down on a Linux machine, and they'll be able to learn it just as profficiently as they could Windows.

Doesn't help that many programming schools force you to use Windows (and are paid to do so).

[Dragonlord]

I know what you mean. I had to setup a road warrior laptop for a road worker of ours and he has beeen rather new to computers altogether. Plugged a Kubuntu on his machine and so far everything works fine. I have quite bigger troubles administering Linux to people used to work with Windows. Some learn it easier while others... well... a donkey is more willing to cooperate than those ;)

[RobbieAB]

The donkey never learnt to use Gameloader OS.

[Svartalf]

Like 3DRealm's DNF? :D

I just wish I had time to go over to Garland and talk with the guys over there- purportedly it's not taking forever anymore... ;) (I'll believe it when I see it with my own two eyes and playtest it... :D)

Seriously, if 3D Realms had something I'd think it'd be nice to get a deal going with 'em to get a Linux version of it out- and they'd have their porting contractor close enough to have him spin by for a visit even... :D

[Thetargos]

I remember reading a few months ago (when the new video of Duke lifting weights was released) that they are all for a Linux version. At this point, the franchise may actually benefit of having clients on as many platforms as they can, IMO. If you have any contacts, it may be worth a try sugar-talking them to do a Linux version (I'd LOVE if they'd be willing to give us a headstart and release the Demo on Linux first than any other platform, that'd be me dreaming [again])

[Dragonlord]

I guess this could be possible. Those guys have after all their own way of doing things which is not what the rest of the business does. Let's see what happens. So far they have not gone gold so everything and nothing can happen :P

[me262]

As a side note, with how long this new Duke game is taking, why hasn't 3D Realms gone out of business yet? I don't remember a recent product of theirs...

"I'm looking for some monopolistic toilet to park my bricks. Who's first?"

[Dragonlord]

:D

"Your ass... your face... where's the difference" :P

[Svartalf]

As a side note, with how long this new Duke game is taking, why hasn't 3D Realms gone out of business yet? I don't remember a recent product of theirs...


Prey is another one of their titles. It's still selling pretty good actually, and is one of the things that's publicly known- they've done a handful of other projects that their name didn't get put on it because they were the subcontractor on the project.

Couple this with keeping a good control on the good money they got from Terminal Velocity, Duke, and Shadow Warrior, they've been able to keep going all this time. It remains to be seen if DNF is going to be worth the wait we've had- but some people that've seen the current "attempt" at it that may well be on it's way to Gold status have been at least mildly impressed. We'll see- I'm still sitting on the fence on this one. If I can get them to give me the time of day on a discussion of a Linux/MacOS version port and see it for myself, I'll change that position.

[Svartalf]

:d

"your ass... Your face... Where's the difference" :p

roflmao! :D

[Dragonlord]

"It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all outta gum!"

Good god... those memories :D . This is somehow the kind of fun I'm missing in todays games... just this damn fucking fun a game can give you playing it... not like this shit tossed at us nowadays U_U

[Thetargos]

Yup, the fun factor in games seems to be Missing in Action in favour for graphics, physics and sound, but not fun. Well, that Penny Arcade game actually brings lots of it to the table, but certainly more games better start to get back the fun factor again.

[RobbieAB]

Svartalf, you sound so like the comments from Nintendo before they launched the first console in years to make a profit on the hardware...

[joshuapurcell]

One of the key take away items here would be:



(The following is representative of MY views and does not reflect any entities' views such as LGP (for which I have a tag on my name here in this forum)...)

Rage will happen for us, but only on their time- and WE, the people out there using Linux, have only ourselves to blame.

Why do I say this?

Each time you lot goes and bitches about the "age" of a given game or compares the price of the Windows version versus the Linux one and bitches about that you do yourselves and everyone else a serious disservice. We're being watched. And this is the results of some of that sort of thing.

Spare all of us the "more money" line, folks- it's not valid, really. Do you think iD cares about a piddling 1000-2000 users' worth of money? In their minds, that's about all they think they can sell based off of what people can publicly see and the past performances we've given them in this area (Q3:A only sold 200 copies for the official Linux version because of the kinds of thinking I've seen espoused in these forums...)- which makes it not worth their while. The main reason he's been doing Linux titles is that it made sense to make the stuff cross platform and we were an underserved market. Unfortunately for us, we also seem to be an arrogant and ungrateful one as well, presuming that we're entitled to stuff.

You're NOT their customer. At best, you're a user of their software if you're using one of their official or unofficial platforms they've chosen to target.

Their customer is the publisher.

The publisher's customer is the retailer.

When you buy from a retailer, they don't care about what OS you're running- they're selling you a little box with a bit of paper and a bit of plastic in it, that purportedly does something when it is stuck into a Windows or MacOS based machine or a console.

So we've got over 30 million users worldwide. Great.

How many of that are willing to buy games? Hundreds? Thousands?

If it's not the same scope and scale as the Mac crowd has been (and we're not there, gang, because of that sense of entitlement we all seem to have here...) they're NOT going to be interested, being a seriously underserved community and all. They've got to see a return on things and for most players, they're not seeing anything except a LOSS from making stuff for us.

What we've shown is that we're not interested in buying games- and in a manner that leads people like iD to not consider us being on the radar and like Epic who's delayed the release now some 10 months if we even SEE the thing in the case of UT3.

Spare me conspiracy theories of Microsoft. Sure, they might have had SOME hand in Unreal not being in our hands- but it's unlikely all the same.

We're our own worst enemy, if you honestly want to know the truth. This is the fruits, folks, of the "it's too expensive", or "it's too old", or "that tanked" lines of thought and the resultant actions.

You run Linux. WHY would you ever want to run a Windows title?
In the infancy of things right now, WHY would you ever commit an infringement on a given title?

Because you can? Because you can't be bothered to hold off for a better situation or to get an actual native binary? Because the game's "too cool" and you can't stand not being able to run it?
Because you don't think the game's worth the price, either because the Windows version is cheaper than the Linux version or "you've already bought it"?

Each time you use WINE for a contemporary game you vote for Windows, even if we're as large a userbase as we think we are.

Each time you buy a Windows SKU and "convert" it to Linux when there was an official Linux version, you make a vote for Windows.

Each time you choose to make an infringement of a current selling Linux title, you're actually HURTING things- yes, I know it's a no-sale, but the problem is when the "no-sales" comprise what would have possibly made for a break-even or a profit sufficient to get the next and cooler title that might have sold, you defeat yourselves. The people doing the infringements seem to think it was worth spreading around- but not worth enough to buy. Each time someone does this, it gives the impression, right or wrong, that we aren't interested in buying games. Moreover, it lends the impression, right or wrong, that we're more interested in infringing upon their rights that paying the money for things...

Look well at this folks. This is the fruits of all of our labors here.

Just at the moment we're winning one fight for things, we're losing it for at least the next 3-5 years or more on the gaming front.

Because of the things I've just said.

I hope all of the people that are guilty of the aforementioned things are PROUD of themselves. They're succeeding in doing for Microsoft what they couldn't do otherwise- deep sixing gaming on Linux for some time to come.

I'm usually behind your posts on most issues, but on this one I'm not buying what you're selling. I am a Linux gamer... that does not make me a gamer who likes older crappier games. Occasionally, however, I will buy the older crappier games that do end up getting a Linux port just because I have the hope it will help the situation, but I still reserve the right to bitch about the fact that the latest games do not make it to my chosen OS. I do vote with my wallet as well as choose to acknowledge the problems with the situation.

[xav1r]

Prey is another one of their titles. It's still selling pretty good actually, and is one of the things that's publicly known- they've done a handful of other projects that their name didn't get put on it because they were the subcontractor on the project.

Couple this with keeping a good control on the good money they got from Terminal Velocity, Duke, and Shadow Warrior, they've been able to keep going all this time. It remains to be seen if DNF is going to be worth the wait we've had- but some people that've seen the current "attempt" at it that may well be on it's way to Gold status have been at least mildly impressed. We'll see- I'm still sitting on the fence on this one. If I can get them to give me the time of day on a discussion of a Linux/MacOS version port and see it for myself, I'll change that position.

But Prey was made by Human head, not 3DR. The last game they actually developed was Shadow warrior, over a decade ago. Its amazing how they can live (rather lavishly) from dos era yesterhits. :D:D

[Svartalf]

I'm usually behind your posts on most issues, but on this one I'm not buying what you're selling. I am a Linux gamer... that does not make me a gamer who likes older crappier games. Occasionally, however, I will buy the older crappier games that do end up getting a Linux port just because I have the hope it will help the situation, but I still reserve the right to bitch about the fact that the latest games do not make it to my chosen OS. I do vote with my wallet as well as choose to acknowledge the problems with the situation.

You're not one of the ones that the rant was directed at. ;)

You don't think you're entitled to games. You've indicated in the past that you know the mess things are and would like for it to be better, pointing out some of the problems that you see. You're not one of the ones that's making the infringements (at least I hope you're not one of them- copying these titles without paying for them is analogous to what Verizon and Actiontec did to the busybox authors...).

So, you're not so much part of the problem as an upset and frustrated Linux user- welcome to that club. Honestly, the T-shirt's not worth the membership. ;)

Me, I'm an upset user AND developer.

I'm frustrated beyond words at having to pay so damn much to get things to be on our chosen platform.

I'm frustrated beyond words at the Linux community being ignored when it comes to a lot of commercial software- we've got more users than Mac does right now.

I'm frustrated beyond words at the people who keep doing the exact things that ensure that they do NOT get the nice new stuff they keep griping about.

The rant was a bit of venting out that frustration.

Whether you agree with my remarks or not, the fact of the matter is, a goodly portion of why we have things the way we do right now is due to the very things I ranted about. That's just a fact, unfortunately.

[Chris]

But Prey was made by Human head, not 3DR.
Can't tell if you were being serious or not, but just for the record, Prey was originally made by 3DRealms. They just eventually handed it off to Human Head to finish it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSFxiuID1TY

[Svartalf]

But Prey was made by Human head, not 3DR. The last game they actually developed was Shadow warrior, over a decade ago. Its amazing how they can live (rather lavishly) from dos era yesterhits. :D:D

It's my understanding that 3DR had a helping hand along with being the main publisher for it. Now, that could be wrong, but... :D


In 2001, 3D Realms began development on a new version of the title.[7] This time, with the advantage of the necessary portal technology already being a stable and functional component of all modern game engines, 3D Realms was able to license the necessary technology instead of having to develop it. 3D Realms chose the id Tech 4 game engine from id Software, and Rune developer Human Head Studios was commissioned to develop the game using the previous designs as a base.


And...


"New York, NY – April 26, 2005 – 2K Games, a publishing label of Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. (NASDAQ: TTWO), and 3D Realms today announced Prey, a revolutionary first person shooter for PC and a next-generation console system in development at Human Head Studios, under the direct supervision of 3D Realms."[10]


Which mostly maps to my understanding of things- Which is Human Head doing a good bit of the work after 3DR started it- with 3DR giving helpful shoves in the right places with the right people at the right times and then publishing the title. Which is much like what you see with Grey Matter or Splash Damage and iD on those titles they did.

Now, I could be wrong there, but... :D

Anyhow, even if they didn't do the work, they DID act as the primary publisher of the title and they did a similar thing for Max Payne 1 & 2- which would have netted them enough money to keep forging forward on DNF or some other project.

[Chris]

Mappers are in abundance though
Might want to point such people over here, then: http://edgeofchaos.planetdoom.gamespy.com/

A free total conversion mod for Doom 3 set in the Hexen universe, which has gained the full blessing of Raven Software. The mod is scheduled to be released for Linux as well as Windows. They're currently looking for mappers, as the news post implies. ;)

[Thetargos]

It's my understanding that 3DR had a helping hand along with being the main publisher for it. Now, that could be wrong, but... :D

You just hold on a sec there... I read somewhere that 3DR made it through all these years without an own title because they've been also publishing (or helping publish) other studio's titles, and that also was a way they were able to inject DNF with money. Wouldn't that make them also a publisher, and as such, if approached correctly, one friendly towards Linux? Did I understand you correctly and you actually know someone at 3DR?

1 + 1? :D

[Svartalf]

You just hold on a sec there... I read somewhere that 3DR made it through all these years without an own title because they've been also publishing (or helping publish) other studio's titles, and that also was a way they were able to inject DNF with money. Wouldn't that make them also a publisher, and as such, if approached correctly, one friendly towards Linux? Did I understand you correctly and you actually know someone at 3DR?

1 + 1? :D

No, I don't know someone over there (much to my dismay...)- some of my friends do, though, so at some point in the near future (I've waaaaay too many irons in the fire right at the moment- need to close out Bandits at least...) I'll try to see if I can go talk to a few people over there in Garland and see what comes of it. It's a decent prospect for us- I just didn't list anything they did or are planning to do in any of the lists because it's still a big unknown.

[xav1r]

Might want to point such people over here, then: http://edgeofchaos.planetdoom.gamespy.com/

A free total conversion mod for Doom 3 set in the Hexen universe, which has gained the full blessing of Raven Software. The mod is scheduled to be released for Linux as well as Windows. They're currently looking for mappers, as the news post implies. ;)

yea, but that mod has been in development for years now.