Which gfx card: Nividia 8800 GT(X) or ATI HD4850?

[oblidor]

Hi

I'm looking for a good gfx card that works fine in Linux. (I'll probably use it for some gaming in Windows, but Linux will be used 95% of the time)

I'll build a computer with a P45 motherboard and a Intel Core 2 Due Q9550.

What I want from the gfx card in Linux is that it works well with normal applications and watching DVDs, and running opengl applications in accelerated 3D. I'll be using xfce4 as desktop environment. And that the card is not noisy.

I read that there are 2D issues with Nvidia, but isn't that also the case with ATI? My last two ATI cards have been troublesome, while the nvidia cards I have tested on others computer have not been problematic. Just install the closed source driver and it works....

With the open source driver for ATI it is a great improvement and I finally get 3D, but I guess a good driver for 4850 is far off? The closed source ATI driver didn't work with my ATI card (x1650).

So which card would you recommend?

Thanks in advance!

[deanjo]

A lot of the 2d issues have been resolved with the latest Beta driver for nvidia. As far as noise in concerned if you look at one of the many 8800GT's out there with a non-reference cooler they can be pretty much silent.

[JeanPaul145]

Personally I would buy an HD4850, or an HD4870 if I could afford it. The performance is on par with the nvidia cards (the 4850 and 4870 even kick *rse compared to the newer nvidia cards like the GTX2xx series), and with the driver being FOSS, I foresee less issues like the ones I and a lot of other people with Nvidia GeForce 8xxx series are having at the moment, some of which _really_ bring down the user experience.
Next to all that, the 4850 sells for between $100,- and $150,- if I'm not mistaken.

[oblidor]

Personally I would buy an HD4850, or an HD4870 if I could afford it. The performance is on par with the nvidia cards (the 4850 and 4870 even kick *rse compared to the newer nvidia cards like the GTX2xx series), and with the driver being FOSS, I foresee less issues like the ones I and a lot of other people with Nvidia GeForce 8xxx series are having at the moment, some of which _really_ bring down the user experience.
Next to all that, the 4850 sells for between $100,- and $150,- if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks for you input! Which problems do you have with 8800?
I still have problems with my ATI x1650 pro AGP running git version of the FOSS driver. (Horisontal tearing being one with vlc) The fglrx driver doesn't work... How far in the future do one need to wait for a working driver for HD 4850/70 FOSS or otherwise? I mean 3D etc...

[grantek]

I've got a HD4850, the main game I play is ET:QW with the AMD/ATI proprietary driver, and it works fine* (http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12322) on that, on a 32-bit distro. I have problems with 32-bit apps on my main 64-bit distro (native 64-bit apps like Compiz work fine), and I haven't got Wine/Cedega games to work properly on any Linux setup, but in the end I think it's worth supporting the maturing FOSS driver, and the card is kickass in terms of performance :)

[grantek]

Oh yeah, and the tearing - the tearing isn't a good thing :(

[oblidor]

I've got a HD4850, the main game I play is ET:QW with the AMD/ATI proprietary driver, and it works fine* (http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12322) on that, on a 32-bit distro. I have problems with 32-bit apps on my main 64-bit distro (native 64-bit apps like Compiz work fine), and I haven't got Wine/Cedega games to work properly on any Linux setup, but in the end I think it's worth supporting the maturing FOSS driver, and the card is kickass in terms of performance :)

Have you tested it on 64-bit? I will only run 64-bit as I'm going to have a Q9550 with 8Gb or more RAM. What about noise level? I have also heard that these ATI card gets very warm?

[JeanPaul145]

Thanks for you input! Which problems do you have with 8800?
I still have problems with my ATI x1650 pro AGP running git version of the FOSS driver. (Horisontal tearing being one with vlc) The fglrx driver doesn't work... How far in the future do one need to wait for a working driver for HD 4850/70 FOSS or otherwise? I mean 3D etc...

I said I was having problems with an 8xxx series card ;)
Personally I own a Geforce 8600M GT, but I expect it largely uses exactly the same driver bits as the 8800.

I'm experiencing problems like deplorable compiz/compiz fusion performance, even worse KDE4 Plasma performance, the gstreamer/Totem combo acting funny sometimes when playing video material (something seems to go wrong with the hue settings, which requires a reboot to "fix"). Those are the most important issues I'm having at the moment I suppose.

Now I'm sure most, if not all, of these issues are known to the Nvidia Linux driver developers and that these developers sre doing everything they can to fix them, but seeing as these are only a couple of persons having to do work on a lot of cards, most problems don't get fixed in a decent amount of time.
If issues like these were ever to arise on FOSS drivers, they would be solved within one month, depending on the "difficulty rating" of the fix;)

One additional thing that needs to be said about my setup: I haven't installed the recent nvidia driver beta's, I'm still running the most recent EnvyNG driver (173.14.12 at the moment).

Oh, and the AMD high-end cards do run hot - but so do the high-end Nvidia cards (think 80-90 degrees Centigrade).

[oblidor]

I see. I set up a 8500 card this summer in a PC and I didn't have 2D performance issues. The issue with hue was easy to fix. When it comes to heat, I see that it is a complaint about the idle heat and that people need to fit other fans on the cards. I guess cards with different design will come at some point, but when...?

[oblidor]

I see. I set up a 8500 card this summer in a PC and I didn't have 2D performance issues. The issue with hue was easy to fix. When it comes to heat, I see that it is a complaint about the idle heat and that people need to fit other fans on the cards. I guess cards with different design will come at some point, but when...?

Hmm today I found this thread: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12339

Now ATI became much more interesting again... Think I'll put the PC building on hole a month to see what happens...

[JeanPaul145]

Hmm today I found this thread: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12339

Now ATI became much more interesting again... Think I'll put the PC building on hole a month to see what happens...

Ok, just remember that the Linux gfx department has been in a lot of flux the last couple of months (on the sides of AMD, Intel alike and Nvidia to some extent as well), and will continue to be for a while.

[oblidor]

Ok, just remember that the Linux gfx department has been in a lot of flux the last couple of months (on the sides of AMD, Intel alike and Nvidia to some extent as well), and will continue to be for a while.

And it seems releasing the R700 specs will delay... Hmmm maybe NVIDIA this time after all... ATI next time if they behave ;)

[Hoddan]

ATI atm ;D

[Janusz11]

Well, I can't comment on any nVidia card other than my old GeForce 7800 GS. But I can comment on the ATi Radeon HD4870, which I also own, and I really can't recommend it for a Linux user. In Windows this card is a blast! But in Linux its a real disappointment (or better yet, I didn't want to believe that really not much has changed since I've switched to nVidia two or three years ago).

Installing the driver can be a pain in the neck- especially on new Kernels. For whatever reason, the driver ignores the xorg.conf (or parts of it) which is really annoying. And last but not least: I found this card absolutely useless for watching DVDs. For that I switch computers, using my old box with the nVidia GeForce 7800 GS.

Again, the card itself is a blast. But the driver for Linux is not. And personally, I don't think that this will change in the near future.

[JeanPaul145]

Well, I can't comment on any nVidia card other than my old GeForce 7800 GS. But I can comment on the ATi Radeon HD4870, which I also own, and I really can't recommend it for a Linux user. In Windows this card is a blast! But in Linux its a real disappointment (or better yet, I didn't want to believe that really not much has changed since I've switched to nVidia two or three years ago).

Installing the driver can be a pain in the neck- especially on new Kernels. For whatever reason, the driver ignores the xorg.conf (or parts of it) which is really annoying. And last but not least: I found this card absolutely useless for watching DVDs. For that I switch computers, using my old box with the nVidia GeForce 7800 GS.

Again, the card itself is a blast. But the driver for Linux is not. And personally, I don't think that this will change in the near future.

which ATI driver are you talking about? The ati, the radeonhd, or the closed source blob? And which kernel version(s)? Those choices make _all_ the difference in the world, you know.

[mitch074]

...and it replaced a Geforce 6600 (arguably the best supported card ever under Linux).
- installing drivers: indeed, fglrx used to be a pain. With Catalyst 8.8, not any more: it is PAINLESS. Even better, it can now create packages for your distro.
- ignoring xorg.conf: I found Nvidia's driver more at fault here, inventing modes that didn't exist and overriding my screen's EDID.
- app support in fglrx is medium to good: most work, and many are bug-free. Expect some bad behaviour in Wine though (checkerboard of doom) and more rarely, strange shaders gone bye-bye (Celestia 1.5 in OpenGL2.0 may behave strangely after a while). On well-working apps, performance and quality ranks up there (Nexuiz, all maxed out, does beautifully)
- free drivers make use of AtomBIOS; as such, support improves along most card families at the same time.
- a missing Xorg feature is vertical refresh buffer synchronization (vsync). Can be solved by using OpenGL as a video output and enabling OpenGL vsync in the driver.

If your main 3D use is Wine, go Nvidia.
If you expect to keep the card for a while and are ready to tinker, go AMD.
If you expect to keepa Windows partition around, go AMD.

[Janusz11]

which ATI driver are you talking about? The ati, the radeonhd, or the closed source blob? And which kernel version(s)? Those choices make _all_ the difference in the world, you know.

Catalyst is the only driver I could get to work with the HD4870.

[remm]

3D on R600 and R700 in the open-source driver seems to be just around the corner (probably around the Fedora 10 timeframe).

[energyman]

why by a card that is defective by design?
I would buy the 4850.

[JeanPaul145]

why by a card that is defective by design?
I would buy the 4850.

I take it you're referring to the cards from camp Nvidia?:D

[energyman]

of course. Only nvidia fucks up an entire series.

[JeanPaul145]

of course. Only nvidia fucks up an entire series.

While I agree that Nvidia could have done a _lot_ better, especially lately, I also think that, considering the ever-growing popularity of Linux-based platforms in people's homes, within a couple of years Linux will have grown to an extent that Nvidia can't afford to ignore the wishes of Linux users anymore.

In short, just have some patience ;)

[adrianveidt]

The Nvidia card will give you OpenGL 2.1.2, and probably 3 soon. You'll get all features of OpenGL, you'll be able to play all GL games. You'll get a working X-Video extension, so you can play movies. The Nvidia driver has a memory manager, which the ATI card currently doesn't.
If you buy the ATI card, you'll get OpenGL 1.3, with no memory manager and X-Video that works only in fullscreen. The Nvidia driver gives you a graphics control panel that provides for changing resolutions, adding anisotropic filtering and anitaliasing, adding other monitors, rotating the screen etc.
The two cards are roughly the same in terms of horsepower, but the ATI drivers aren't able to make use of it anyway.
All that having been said ... the ATI card is definitely the way to go. :rolleyes:

[energyman]

While I agree that Nvidia could have done a _lot_ better, especially lately, I also think that, considering the ever-growing popularity of Linux-based platforms in people's homes, within a couple of years Linux will have grown to an extent that Nvidia can't afford to ignore the wishes of Linux users anymore.

In short, just have some patience ;)

I am not talking about POS drivers. I am talking about mass dying nvidia based laptops and condemned to death desktops.

[JeanPaul145]

I am not talking about POS drivers. I am talking about mass dying nvidia based laptops and condemned to death desktops.

Ah I see. Well, I can't exactly disagree with that either.
They messed up big time. What's worse though is that they keep insisting that it's only a small part of the cards that has those kinds of problems.

[Melcar]

The Nvidia card will give you OpenGL 2.1.2, and probably 3 soon. You'll get all features of OpenGL, you'll be able to play all GL games. You'll get a working X-Video extension, so you can play movies. The Nvidia driver has a memory manager, which the ATI card currently doesn't.
If you buy the ATI card, you'll get OpenGL 1.3, with no memory manager and X-Video that works only in fullscreen. The Nvidia driver gives you a graphics control panel that provides for changing resolutions, adding anisotropic filtering and anitaliasing, adding other monitors, rotating the screen etc.
The two cards are roughly the same in terms of horsepower, but the ATI drivers aren't able to make use of it anyway.
All that having been said ... the ATI card is definitely the way to go. :rolleyes:

You're comparing the nvidia proprietary driver to the open source ati driver. Come on :rolleyes:.

[energyman]

OpenGL renderer string: ATI Radeon HD 3870
OpenGL version string: 2.1.7873 Release

that doesn't look like 'opengl 1.3'.

[BlackStar]

Just as the posters above commented, the closed-source ati driver supports OpenGL 2.1 (and will soon support 3.0) - just like nvidia.

That said, the rest of the complaints are true: until dri2 lands, only nvidia will provide tear-free opengl/xv under compiz.

To sum up:
1. If you want open source, go Intel or Ati.
2. If you want stability, go Intel.
3. If you want performance, go Ati.
4. If you want features and don't care about binary blobs, go Nvidia.

Keep in mind that drivers are in flux at this point, and there's a chance that you'll encounter some problems until they get stable again. Hopefully, by the end of 2009 the dust will have settled and we'll have stable and featureful drivers for all competitors.

[Panix]

I'm reading this thread because I might be buying a video card again.

I am trying to help another Linux user who has an ancient Nvidia-based card (GeForce 4). Neither of us play games but if anyone did, it might be me. However, I might be passing off my Nvidia 7950GT card and buying myself a new card. Or I would just buy a cheap 7900GT or 7900GS for him.

But, if I bought myself a card, I might as well upgrade but to what?

I think the AMD/ATI 4850 would be my choice for the price but not sure how much issues I'd have. So, I've read this thread closely.

My other choice would be the cheapest 8800GT I could find as I don't want to spend any more than $150 on it. I probably should have picked a card about a couple weeks back because there was some discounts and sales on most cards especially 8800GT cards.

I have also read about the Nvidia chip issue particulary applicable to laptops/notebooks. If it is a problem across the board spanning desktop video cards, then I would want to go with ATI.

Which card/co. should I go with?

[oblidor]

I think the AMD/ATI 4850 would be my choice for the price but not sure how much issues I'd have. So, I've read this thread closely.


After testing my HD 4870 card for some time I have had no problem with the Catalyst driver. The only thing you are forced to do at the moment is to flash the BIOS of the card to fix the fan settings. You have to do it in Windows. The card runs too hot and will heat up CPU and motherboard.

In windows you can control the fan through the overdrive in Catalyst. In Linux I don't find it possible yet. It might come later though.

The price difference between HD4850 and 4870 is small so you could also consider 4870. But HD4850 will use less power than a 8800GT and be less noisy.

Note there is also the HD 46xx coming now, but that means you go further down in price and performance.

NOTE: You cannot use Compiz and watch a DVD/movie at the same time. This is because Opengl applications don't work with Compiz. It is not the card, but a shortcoming of DRI. However DRI2 is supposed to have fixed this. You can use XV for the video, but the quality is not good and there will be tearing. (Until it is fixed in the fglrx driver (if ever))

I would have chosen HD48xx

[oblidor]

If you buy the ATI card, you'll get OpenGL 1.3, with no memory manager and X-Video that works only in fullscreen.


My HD 4870 reports:

$ fglrxinfo
display: :0.0 screen: 0
OpenGL vendor string: ATI Technologies Inc.
OpenGL renderer string: ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series
OpenGL version string: 2.1.7979 Release

[oblidor]

That said, the rest of the complaints are true: until dri2 lands, only nvidia will provide tear-free opengl/xv under compiz.


Well, I see many complain about tearing with nvidia drivers and poor 2D performance. But does really opengl apps work with compiz if you have a nvidia card?

[Melcar]

Well, I see many complain about tearing with nvidia drivers and poor 2D performance. But does really opengl apps work with compiz if you have a nvidia card?


I still have an old 7900GS on one of my backups and yes, it can playback opengl/Xv streams under Compiz with no flickering (windowed or fullscreen mode). However, things tend to crash a lot (particularly opengl games). Don't know why it happens, but using an old x800gto on that same machine is less of a hassle (even with the blinking, but you can alliviate that by running things in fullscreen mode).

[oblidor]

I still have an old 7900GS on one of my backups and yes, it can playback opengl/Xv streams under Compiz with no flickering (windowed or fullscreen mode). However, things tend to crash a lot (particularly opengl games). Don't know why it happens, but using an old x800gto on that same machine is less of a hassle (even with the blinking, but you can alliviate that by running things in fullscreen mode).

To me it sounds like you have the same problems as others and that it is DRI which is the problem. xv works fine with compiz. opengl doesn't

[Panix]

After testing my HD 4870 card for some time I have had no problem with the Catalyst driver. The only thing you are forced to do at the moment is to flash the BIOS of the card to fix the fan settings. You have to do it in Windows. The card runs too hot and will heat up CPU and motherboard.

In windows you can control the fan through the overdrive in Catalyst. In Linux I don't find it possible yet. It might come later though.

The price difference between HD4850 and 4870 is small so you could also consider 4870. But HD4850 will use less power than a 8800GT and be less noisy.

Note there is also the HD 46xx coming now, but that means you go further down in price and performance.

NOTE: You cannot use Compiz and watch a DVD/movie at the same time. This is because Opengl applications don't work with Compiz. It is not the card, but a shortcoming of DRI. However DRI2 is supposed to have fixed this. You can use XV for the video, but the quality is not good and there will be tearing. (Until it is fixed in the fglrx driver (if ever))

I would have chosen HD48xx

Thanks for the info. It is very appreciated! I don't need to run Compiz and DVDs at the same time. That's not important but having a Compiz-capable card is nice. I rarely run Compiz and on most of my distro partitions, it's not even installed. However watching DVD and AVI movies is important and crucial, at least for me. I prefer to avoid issues such as tearing. The ATI 4850 cards in my area (well, Canada) is about $200 give or take and 8800 GT cards can be had under that. Therefore, I would want a card that is $200 or under but doesn't have any kind of issues when playing video. Or at least, offers options to avoid/prevent them.

I thought that soon, the ATI cards would eventually improve and be in a better 'state' or situation than Nvidia in Linux because of the open source status. Also, the Nvidia report that there are flaws in the chips (again, not sure how applicable or far it reaches the desktop cards). But, it must be frustrating that the Nvidia cards still seem to work best in Linux and I am not sure I'd have the patience to wait through 'growing pains' of the ATI drivers. I'm not much of a gamer and my main graphics use is watching videos but the odd time, I might want some graphics abilities in the card. I don't have time to deal with major issues though or experiment with 'beta' drivers or unstable graphics programs even if I'd want to try.

I'm not partial to any brand so I hope to still receive more feedback. :-)

[oblidor]

Thanks for the info. It is very appreciated! I don't need to run Compiz and DVDs at the same time. That's not important but having a Compiz-capable card is nice. I rarely run Compiz and on most of my distro partitions, it's not even installed. However watching DVD and AVI movies is important and crucial, at least for me. I prefer to avoid issues such as tearing. The ATI 4850 cards in my area (well, Canada) is about $200 give or take and 8800 GT cards can be had under that. Therefore, I would want a card that is $200 or under but doesn't have any kind of issues when playing video. Or at least, offers options to avoid/prevent them.


I have also had a lot of bad experiences with ATI (have not had a NVIDIA card myself, but have setup computer with NVIDIA cards). However, when it comes to the 48xx series, the fglrx driver actually works for me. I also have an old computer with a x1650pro card and there the fglrx driver didn't work. However the latest open source ati driver did and gave me nice X-Video so one could see DVDs with compiz. However if I used any opengl program like google-earth etc... then I ran into trouble until I turned off compiz. So I really wait for DRI2 to come!

I cannot of course promise you no problems with the HD 4850, but I have had none so far. It is important to follow the instructions when installing the fglrx driver. I have experience no unstability or slowness in 2D or 3D with my HD4870. There is also absolutely no tearing when watching DVDs on my system when I use OpenGL. I have a Q9550 CPU (sometimes tearing it caused by old CPUs I have read, but then it doesn't matter what card you have). NVIDIA has also problems with slow 2D and tearing I see from the forums, but I guess it has to do with the computer? I setup a cheap computer with an E7200 CPU and 8500 GT card and I had no slowness.

If you don't need the extra power for games etc... Have a look at the new card that comes from ATI. They are cheaper (and less powerfull).


But I would have gotten a HD 4850 card if I was you.

[BhaKi]

If you don't want your graphics card to impose idiosyncratic restrictions like "you must have either windows or linux to make use of all features, you can't use other os'es", etc., then you should go for a card with open programming specifications. In this respect, the ATI cards are far ahead of nVidia ones. IMO, a card that says "only for windows and linux" is just as bad as a card that says "only for windows".

[Xwang]

I've seen a laptop with an Ati 3650 with 512mb VRAM.
Reading the discussion, I've understood that the main problems with ati propietary driver are:
1) tearing when compiz is active
2) wine doesn't work
Is it all right?
For the first point, how ati driver works if I don't install Compiz (I like a minimal desktop and such visual effects don't seem to me to increase the system usability IMHO. On my system I use kde3 (kubuntu) and on the next one I will have kde4 with no compiz or similar things)?
For the second point, I've read that the 8.9 realese fix the problem. Can you play 3d wine games with it or other issues are still present? In other words, taking a platinum rated wine game, can you play it without problems, artifacts, instabilities and son on?
Thank you,
Xwang

[Melcar]

I've seen a laptop with an Ati 3650 with 512mb VRAM.
Reading the discussion, I've understood that the main problems with ati propietary driver are:
1) tearing when compiz is active
2) wine doesn't work
Is it all right?
For the first point, how ati driver works if I don't install Compiz (I like a minimal desktop and such visual effects don't seem to me to increase the system usability IMHO. On my system I use kde3 (kubuntu) and on the next one I will have kde4 with no compiz or similar things)?
For the second point, I've read that the 8.9 realese fix the problem. Can you play 3d wine games with it or other issues are still present? In other words, taking a platinum rated wine game, can you play it without problems, artifacts, instabilities and son on?
Thank you,
Xwang

Wine *works* with the latest fglrx revision. I mean, I still can't manage to get games like Oblivion running and most of my older games that supposedly are able to run in Wine (according to the database) do not work, but some do work fine like Fallout and Baldur's Gate (and I don't need any other Windows game other than Fallout :D).
The driver will "tear" video playback regardless of what you do (even opengl tears on my card), so watching videos can be a bit of a pain. Using Compiz causes accelerated video streams to flicker, but you can *fix* that by running them fullscreen (applies to games as well). There also seems to be problems with TexturedVideo and Xine (a lot of people report crashes). Oh, and Flash seems to be more unstable with fglrx than with the nvidia blob (I dread going to Youtube now since the videos have a slight chance of killing my whole display), but for that I blame Flash more than anything.

[seanbarman]

Hi,

I have have 3870 and 8800gt, The ati driver is still buggy. If you use compiz nvidia is much better
there is no flickering during videos or open gl like binary ati driver.

The latest nvidia driver works well with kde4 as well. I bought the 8800gt after 6 months of updates by ATI. To my knowledge people are still complaining about the same bugs.

If your gamer more games seem to be supported by cedega with nvidia driver, also there were problems with wine under ati. I find more games work under wine and cedega and hardly ever boot to windows now.

There just seem to many problems with the ati drver to fix. eg. wine, tearing, poor performance,
flickering compiz.

[SyXbiT]

perhaps one of you guys with a 4870 (claiming that fglrx works well) could post your xorg.
i have a 4870, and performance is terrible (worse than my laptop's onboard intel!)

[marakaid]

Hi
...
I'm looking for a good gfx card that works fine in Linux. (I'll probably use it for some gaming in Windows, but Linux will be used 95% of the time)
...


In all honesty, never buy something trusting on future performance or development, so the better card now is the Nvidia.

Drivers easy to install,
good video/opengl/wine performance,
less power needed and heat generated,
cheaper price...

Yeah, I know Nvidia cards have their share of problems too, like all hardware, but is not a pain like Ati cards.