ut3 linux poll

[xav1r]

Would you buy UT3 either inmediately after a linux client is available, a few days later, would you consider buying it, or will you undoubtly not buy it?

[RobbieAB]

There is no maybe/eventually option...

I'm not a huge shooter fan, so I wouldn't be rushing to pick it up. However, I will NEVER get it without the Linux option.

[xav1r]

There is no maybe/eventually option...

I'm not a huge shooter fan, so I wouldn't be rushing to pick it up. However, I will NEVER get it without the Linux option.

Well, the yes, a few days later could count as that one. Im trying to get a rough number of how many who would actually buy it to play it on linux natively would actually do so. But ill add that option too, if i can find the option. :)

[Setlec]

it's not really clear to say "a few days later" as a Maybe. the impact is quite different imo.

[xav1r]

it's not really clear to say "a few days later" as a Maybe. the impact is quite different imo.

Ok, since no one has voted maybe so far, how do i change the option to "maybe"?

[Setlec]

i've no clue.... sadly maybe the moderator could but i don't know...

[Svartalf]

Ok, since no one has voted maybe so far, how do i change the option to "maybe"?

You need both. One describes a desire to get it as soon as cash permits. The other indicates mixed feelings about the whole thing.

I'd answer "Maybe" and that's only because it's taken 9+ months. I've got other things in the budget to worry about than the title. I'm interested, but it's a tougher sell than if it'd been only a couple of months late or when they originally thought it'd come out.

If it shows in a couple of days like the rumored MacOS release would lead one to belive might be happening, I'll probably buy it. But if it goes on longer, it becomes with each passing week a more difficult sell for me.

[RobbieAB]

Svartalf, your maybe is not the same as mine. Mine is a maybe, because it's a linux game, yours is a maybe not because of the messing around...

[Michael]

i've no clue.... sadly maybe the moderator could but i don't know...

Changed To maybe plus added an "Already Bought It" for those that pre-ordered back in November :(

[me262]

Voted no.
While I'm pretensively sticking to my guns about not buying another Epic product, I might if my friends were playing it, and currently they're not. They've been playing Hellgate London (which I can't run at all), and War3: DOTA. As of late though I'm now gearing up for the gathering cold storm that is Blizzard's next 2 releases: Starcraft II, and Diablo III. Epic has missed their window with me.
That's not taking into account the high cost of gathering as much money as I can for Full Sail come mid-November (I need around 1.5-2k before my financial aid kicks in, and I'm selling things left and right (http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZ-me262)), or my $30 semi-monthly dump into Rock Band 2 SE.

[xav1r]

Voted no.
While I'm pretensively sticking to my guns about not buying another Epic product, I might if my friends were playing it, and currently they're not. They've been playing Hellgate London (which I can't run at all), and War3: DOTA. As of late though I'm now gearing up for the gathering cold storm that is Blizzard's next 2 releases: Starcraft II, and Diablo III. Epic has missed their window with me.
That's not taking into account the high cost of gathering as much money as I can for Full Sail come mid-November (I need around 1.5-2k before my financial aid kicks in, and I'm selling things left and right (http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZ-me262)), or my $30 semi-monthly dump into Rock Band 2 SE.

Youre going to fullsail? Damn, so you really want to be a game developer then. What are you going to study there?

btw, are the results of the vote so far public?

[Dragonlord]

Does anybody really care about "game dev education"? Where I live nobody gives a shit about this. A university degree, yeah, that could ( mind the stress on "could" ) help something but otherwise it's money thrown out of the window... unless you do it just for learning the tools of trade.

[xav1r]

btw, Michael, if youre watching, i was thinking, if enough people vote in this poll, maybe could you send the results to epic? Or to Wartourist, he might forward it to the right people. If more people vote that is. :D

[Svartalf]

Does anybody really care about "game dev education"? Where I live nobody gives a shit about this. A university degree, yeah, that could ( mind the stress on "could" ) help something but otherwise it's money thrown out of the window... unless you do it just for learning the tools of trade.

Heh... Depends on what they're selling. What they're claiming is a Bachelor's in that space- lots of places are advertising "game dev" degrees of late. From what I can tell, at least 2/3rds of them are like what the DeVry university degrees were like when they started in the collegiate business. Lots of practical knowledge and no real theoretical backing- it was like a technical school on steroids. Not a bad thing in and of itself, but it has it's own consequences. It could be viewed as a college degree (and I know of a lot of places in this area (Dallas, Texas...) that have viewed it as such, but put it down one rung from CS/MIS degrees...)- but you're going to have to keep up with things to keep from becoming technically obsolescent. Without a huge heaping serving of theoretical background (and I'd went out of my way to find out more than even they were teaching us as a Computer Science degree...) it's going to be harder for you to do this initially.

If it were me, I'd try to get the CS degree or the Software Engineering degree- it might be "boring" at first, but there'll be a solid base for the rest to follow. In the end, if I were a producer at a studio, or the Lead Dev, I'd have to see if someone had ANY degree and then find out a little more about whether or not they knew how to think instead of just point-n-click. A person with a CS, Sw Engr., or EE degree will be considered first over a Game Dev degree, but they'd be considered all the same if they could show me something that proved they could think for themselves and they could grok the types of tasks I'd need for them to do. Doesn't matter if it's game dev, client-server systems, etc.

[xav1r]

Or if youre a hot chick like Jade Raymond just add the word "producer" next to your name and thats it. :)

[Svartalf]

Or if youre a hot chick like Jade Raymond just add the word "producer" next to your name and thats it. :)

"Producer" implies either they've managed a game project before or they're fronting at least PART of the investment for the project in exchange for creative management rights- just like in a record or a movie deal. ;)

[Dragonlord]

Hehe... that's what I thought. Granted I'm up for a CS because I like it and not because it could or doesn't grant me anything. I prefer anyways to let my work speak instead of a degree... ;)

[RobbieAB]

Does anybody really care about "game dev education"? Where I live nobody gives a shit about this. A university degree, yeah, that could ( mind the stress on "could" ) help something but otherwise it's money thrown out of the window... unless you do it just for learning the tools of trade.

Further to Svartalfs comments, there are also "game dev" courses which are just plain old software engineering or CS courses with a thin veneer of games over them to attract students. Given the tendancy for degree courses to try and get students taking a small amount of material from other disciplines, "game dev" students would just do that as part of the core course. (Story structure and the like.)

Realistically, when presented with a degree like that, you first want to look at where it's from and glance at the syllabus for the course. It's normally pretty obvious what type of degree it really is.

[Svartalf]

Hehe... that's what I thought. Granted I'm up for a CS because I like it and not because it could or doesn't grant me anything. I prefer anyways to let my work speak instead of a degree... ;)

With 12 pages of CV, I'd have to say that I concur with that philosophy... ;)

Works always speak waaaay louder than the scrap of paper that says BSCS/MSCS or similar. The degree gets your foot in the door, the rest, as they always say, is up to you. :D

Trust me, as someone who's been a hiring manager in past work lives, this is always the case.

[Svartalf]

Further to Svartalfs comments, there are also "game dev" courses which are just plain old software engineering or CS courses with a thin veneer of games over them to attract students. Given the tendancy for degree courses to try and get students taking a small amount of material from other disciplines, "game dev" students would just do that as part of the core course. (Story structure and the like.)

Realistically, when presented with a degree like that, you first want to look at where it's from and glance at the syllabus for the course. It's normally pretty obvious what type of degree it really is.

In this case, the emphasis from what I was able to garner from the curriculum for Fullsail is that they're more of a media/graphics arts technical school that is piling on something resembling a bit of a software engineering centric bent to game dev. It seems a bit lacking in theory for my tastes.

It will get your foot in the door in some places, but it'll hamper options outside of the game industry as a whole. There's not enough there to easily score (though you could still do so...my friend from one of these degree programs is fairly well off now over at VHA being a Programmer Analyst for them...) work outside of the industry- something you honestly and seriously need to consider. This is because you could burn-out, be laid off from your studio, etc. Happens all the time and unless you've backup plans it's harder to hit the ground feet-first and get running again. If you've been at it a while in the industry, your experience and skillsets if you avoid becoming technically obsolescent will speak louder than the degree and it'll become easier over time to fix a mishap under those circumstances but it'll be a longer time than if you'd done the CS or similar degree.

[RobbieAB]

Flip side is the comment passed in an interview to me by the interviewer about a lack of C skills coming out of CS, and basically I was told that the position I was interviewing for wasn't even open to over 50% of the CS grads today, because they only knew Java. The company would sooner teach the fine points of the theory than try and teach Java people C.

It's all swings and roundabouts, and getting the interview. From there, it's down to ability. Good people will thrive, bad ones fail, however they get started.

[me262]

Further to Svartalfs comments, there are also "game dev" courses which are just plain old software engineering or CS courses with a thin veneer of games over them to attract students. Given the tendancy for degree courses to try and get students taking a small amount of material from other disciplines, "game dev" students would just do that as part of the core course. (Story structure and the like.)

Realistically, when presented with a degree like that, you first want to look at where it's from and glance at the syllabus for the course. It's normally pretty obvious what type of degree it really is.
I'll post the curriculum shortly, but a general description their Game Dev bechelor's degree is that it actually does deal with a lot of programming, including classes on C++, DirectX, on OpenGL, and more.
The last ~3 months of the program is working on a game that can be used for a portfolio.
Think you'd hire someone with those kinds of assets?

I did look around, and a lot of the ones I saw were for the graphic design end. Other colleges weren't really serious about the program. The only two that stuck out for me were Full Sail with a 1.75 year accelerated bachelor program, and Digipen, with a 4-year bachelor program. I'm already 27, and by the time I finish the 4-year, I'll be in my 30's, most likely single, and without kids...

EDIT:
Month 1: Design fundamentals (3) / English composition (4)
Month 2: Programming 1 (4) / Calculus & Trigonometry (4)
Month 3: Programming 2 (4) / Linear Algebra (4)
Month 4: Programming 3 (4) / Physics (4)
Month 5: Data structures (4) / ethics & psychology (4)
Month 6: Windows Programming 1 (4) / Historical Archetypes & Mythology (4)
Month 7: Windows Programming 2 (4) / 3D Content Creation (3)
Month 8: DirectX (4) / Software architecture (3)
Month 9: Structure of game design (4) / media & society (4)
Month 10: Structure of game production (8) / rules of the game (3)
Month 11: Structure of game production (8) (continued from 10)
Month 12: OpenGL (4) / Machine architecture 1 (3)
Month 13: Optimization (4) / Machine architecture 2 (3)
Month 14: Artificial intelligence (4) / software engineering (3)
Month 15: Engine development 1 (4) / game networking (3)
Month 16: Engine development 2 (4) / Advanced tools programming (3)
Month 17: Public speaking (4)/ game preproduction (3)
Month 18: Game planning and architecture (4) / communications (4)
Month 19-21: Game project (10)
140 total credit hours

If anyone wants more info let me know, I'll scan the pages and PM them.

Let me know if this is worthy of a job. I want to do this right, and $75k is a lot to dump in in a short time for this. However, what's the cost of a 4-year anyways? Both programs are for a B.S.

EDIT 2: Added credit hours.
EDIT 3: It's odd. A lot of people view C++ as an old dinosaur, and moving people to Java because it's very featured and easy to create a GUI. The way I've worked with it, and had it described to me, Java is all pointers and linked lists. It hides all of this from you, which means even with basic addition you're already leaking memory. I prefer not to work in this language if I can help it.

[RobbieAB]

Quick comments:

Windows programing, DirectX, and OpenGL are all platform technologies, and basically consist of "read and understand the API". While they need to be covered, they should not comprise 10% of the basic material. They change too fast. (Basically, they should be taught in other modules.)

The AI component is quite frankly inadequate. It will NOT equip you to build a game AI. You just don't have time.

The underlying maths seems a little light. As a quick list, you need to cover Calculus, Trignometry, Vectors, Matrices, and Number Theory. I'm probably missing stuff from that list, but to cover them properly takes a lot more than 8 credit hours over two months. You also need some basic probability and distribution, simply because you need to understand them, though this could probably be covered in a week at a high intensity.

The physics also seems light. At a minimum you will need to cover basic electronics (You want to understand the computer, right?) and mechanics. I have my doubts if both can be covered adequately in a month.

A total lack of operating systems.

Not that I'm an expert, but that's my take.

[RobbieAB]

EDIT 3: It's odd. A lot of people view C++ as an old dinosaur, and moving people to Java because it's very featured and easy to create a GUI. The way I've worked with it, and had it described to me, Java is all pointers and linked lists. It hides all of this from you, which means even with basic addition you're already leaking memory. I prefer not to work in this language if I can help it.

OK, stop betraying how little you actually understand... ;)

Java runs in a Java VM which includes useful features like garbage collection. So, in theory, Java doesn't memory leak.

Java is popular for several reasons:
1) No memory management. This makes it "easier" to teach.
2) No pointers. See the corollary of 1)
3) "Platform Independant" so long as the target platform has a compliant (and compatable!) JVM.
4) As a corollary of 1) and 2) everywhere teaches it.
5) As a corollary of 4) every new CS grad knows it.

C++ can be anything to anybody. With operator overloading, templates, and some of the other advanced features of the language, it can get very very powerful (and very very very complex!).

Java is designed to prevent you shooting yourself in the foot, C++ allows for the possibility that shooting yourself in the foot serves some purpose. As a simple demo of this principle, try implementing the classic swap() function in both languages. (Having done that, work out how to do the same in Python, it's hilariously funny.)

[me262]

I actually try not to betray my knowledge if at all possible, but I want to be honest that I may not know as much as someone who's an expert in the field.

I have learned Java (1 class, but basic knowledge nonetheless), I just don't like it that much. I know it is cross platform as simply as running the JAR. My Java teacher actually told me about how memory is handled, and is why I said "from what I'm told". I know about the garbage collector, I've never implemented it (as if it needed to do such in the first place). The fact that they do need one though tells something about it's memory management though.

It's just late and I didn't really throw in the pros to offset the cons.

As far as the classes, these actually run at all time of the day, 9a, 1p, 5p, 9p, 1a, 5a, 5 times a week. It's nearly the same length as a regular college course.
5x4 = 20 classes in 1 month (assuming it's a 4-hour class), 2x4x3 = 24 classes in 3 months. I'm not taking Saturdays into account, which I think they do run on that day as well, nor the fact that months run in 30-31 days.
AI Outline: Agent Architecture, Knowledge Representation, Machine Learning, Path Finding and Navigation, Problem-solving and Searching, Reasoning and Decision-Making, Team-based Architecture
Physics Outline: Particles Kinematics, Particle Dynamics, Numerical Methods (Euler, Verlet Integration, Verlet Velocity, RK4), Dynamic Collision Detections, Particle Collision Responses, Rigid Body Kinematics, Rigid Body Dynamics, Rigid body Collision Responses
Calculus has derivatives, limits and rate of change, integrals, and multi-variable calc. Linear algebra has the vector and matrix operations.

[RobbieAB]

I was only teasing about the "betray your knowledge". That said, the purpose of a garbage collector is that it does the memory management for you: you just let an object go out of reference and it's scrubbed.

With 8 hour contact hours a day, you won't get the library time a normal student would be expected to get. This is born out by the 140 credit hours for the course. (A normal undergrad degree would be expected to average 60 credit hours a year!)

Regarding the course content: you just don't have time to match a good (not necessarily brilliant) 4 year student. You have to lose either in depth of coverage or breadth of coverage. I wouldn't think I could compete with a CS grad in general (I'm not CS originally) but in the areas I have covered, I can compete with the best of them. Overall they win, simply because they have covered so much more material: they have had four years worth of lectures and reading.

Now, it is a different matter if that course is pre-supposing a reasonable level of knowledge from entrants (i.e. equivalent to first year of a CS degree, which is the real basics, like what a computer is).

[Svartalf]

EDIT 3: It's odd. A lot of people view C++ as an old dinosaur, and moving people to Java because it's very featured and easy to create a GUI. The way I've worked with it, and had it described to me, Java is all pointers and linked lists. It hides all of this from you, which means even with basic addition you're already leaking memory. I prefer not to work in this language if I can help it.

Java's good for making UI apps or web applications.

Java is NOT good for making peak performance applications or applications that you need consistent operation. A real-time system pausing for GC operations (which is where your "not leaking memory" from Java COMES from...) will cause things to kill people.

If you didn't take a CS degree, or got bit by that distinction, you'd not know and might have problems down the line. Java has at least a handful of equally problematic edges to it.

Most people view C++ as "an old dinosaur" because of the misuse of the language features and a pervasive desire for "something new". Trust me, of the games out there that've been successful using Java you can count them on one hand (Tribal Trouble is the only one that uses it completely that's done anything...).

[Svartalf]

Let me know if this is worthy of a job. I want to do this right, and $75k is a lot to dump in in a short time for this. However, what's the cost of a 4-year anyways? Both programs are for a B.S.


It's a bit shallow on what you need to get ahead. It's all practical application, and nowhere near enough of that to be useful. As RobbieAB indicated, some of the coursework is more of an intro than sufficient to teach you enough to be useful with developing for it. You MIGHT get your foot in the door with it if you've got a hot enough title in your resulting portfolio with a studio- keep in mind, though, you're going to be very, very specialized (not a good thing, really) and there's a lot of people also trying to do the same thing that'll be competing for those same possible slots.

Like I said...it's more like a Tech School degree on steroids...

$75k for this? I'm not going to tell you that it's a bad idea, but you might want to get a more generic degree, even if it's online, with that cash- but then, that'd be me. :D Ever given someone like University of Phoenix a check-out?

[Dragonlord]

@RobbieAB
Didn't know CS is considered "that" good already. :D

@All
From my experience so with with both Bachelor and Master courses it is just a foundation though a good one. You have to connect it yourself to game development like for example with AI. The AI courses we had covered the different ways of handling AI. For game deving though you have to connect and extend them yourself ( when does what fit, how to do the actual implementation, how to LOD it well and so forth ). It's though not bad... I mean... I liked the Compiler course and went afterwards implementing my own scripting language ( which ended up in my engine as a module for the adventurous ones :D ) and many other things started there. So if I had the choice between a CS and a game-dev course I'd go for CS... especially if you dig hacking and software engineering and fiddled with that sort of things already it's worth the time.

[RobbieAB]

LOL

The good CS grads will be very good. The will also probably love what they are doing, and have gone well beyond the "minimum" needed to do well in any component of their course. This is generally the case in any discipline.

Yes, I agree that it is all about getting a solid foundation, and having a piece of paper to get you the interview. After that your own commitment and ability count for more than the course.

[xav1r]

Anybody read that interview that Ryan "Icculus" did, where he said that he learned everything he knows on his own? And that most schools' programs are crap anyways, so you need to go your own way to learn your stuff, otherwise youre not going to learn anything? And that he has a degree in theater i think. ;););)

btw, im so glad im learning plain C, not C++ yet. :) :)

[RobbieAB]

Anybody read that interview that Ryan "Icculus" did, where he said that he learned everything he knows on his own? And that most schools' programs are crap anyways, so you need to go your own way to learn your stuff, otherwise youre not going to learn anything? And that he has a degree in theater i think. ;););)

btw, im so glad im learning plain C, not C++ yet. :) :)

Well, not wishing to belittle Ryans achievement, but...

That is a typical comment from someone without the qualification. A good degree course is not so much about teaching the advanced methods, but about teaching the underlying theory. It should expose you to ideas and concepts you may rarely see in the real world, so would not "learn on the job", but which may occasionally prove useful.

Yes most schools programs are crap, but only in the sense that most schools don't really have people good enough to push the very best students. After all, the schools don't always get the best people, and it's not unknown for final year students who are seriously good to be better than their teachers. But a good student should still gain from the structured environment, the structured teaching.

Take two equal student just out of high-school, and send one off to work and learn on his own, and send the other to do an "adequate" CS course. Which will be the better all round computer guy after 4 years?

[Dragonlord]

I have to precise this a bit. I've seen at university a couple of morons ( excuse the term ) which could not commit compiling code in MCS courses or that still had no idea about what a Singleton is or other elementary things ( we always said they slept well with the teachers to get through... o.=.O ... anyways those students are good ate caughing up what they learned but can't reuse it to form new stuff ). CS gives the basics and allows you to grow but if the student in question simply sucks at informatics he's not going to get far with the degree alone. What it needs is CS + own-skills. Own-Skills alone can get you far but CS alone ( without the skills and dedication of your own ) doesn't get you far.

[me262]

It's a bit shallow on what you need to get ahead. It's all practical application, and nowhere near enough of that to be useful. As RobbieAB indicated, some of the coursework is more of an intro than sufficient to teach you enough to be useful with developing for it. You MIGHT get your foot in the door with it if you've got a hot enough title in your resulting portfolio with a studio- keep in mind, though, you're going to be very, very specialized (not a good thing, really) and there's a lot of people also trying to do the same thing that'll be competing for those same possible slots.

Like I said...it's more like a Tech School degree on steroids...

$75k for this? I'm not going to tell you that it's a bad idea, but you might want to get a more generic degree, even if it's online, with that cash- but then, that'd be me. :D Ever given someone like University of Phoenix a check-out?
Some of it possibly, however there is practicality at the end, so if everything's used at the end to make a game, there's something to be said for it I guess. I nearly have a double associates in CS and General (5 classes away, but lately everyone's looking at bachelors and higher).

Shall I post the course detail then? It seems like you guys aren't really getting how much is covered in these classes. Either that or that it's covered too quickly. Let me know your thoughts.

I haven't really looked at UoP, but I'm not sure that's accredited, or what the program entails.

[trepo]

IF it comes out, I WILL buy it. I want my copy to be on their books as a sale for Linux. Even if I'll play it a few times only. I'm not really a shooter fan, but I'm willing to to pay extra just to send a message. It may not be heard, but it's still cheaper than travelling to London to deliver a speech at Hyde park :) [EDIT:] I only registered to be able to vote. Why is the vote available to members only? 'Ph'orum limitations?

[trepo]

Java's good for making UI apps or web applications.

Java is NOT good for making peak performance applications or applications that you need consistent operation. A real-time system pausing for GC operations (which is where your "not leaking memory" from Java COMES from...) will cause things to kill people.

Count me ignorant, but... Java is a language like any other. It's "easier" than C, and it's designed to run on a VM, but it should be compilable to machine code just like any other language. The only difference is whether the programmer or the compiler is smarter...

And yes, 'programmers' using Java (or any other interpreted language - bytecode _is_ interpreted) for RT apps either don't know what they are doing or have incompetent management. (As if there was any other kind :))

[trepo]

Well, not wishing to belittle Ryans achievement, but...

That is a typical comment from someone without the qualification.

Qualification means fsck all in this industry.


A good degree course is not so much about teaching the advanced methods, but about teaching the underlying theory.


Advanced methods of what? Programming? No advances in programming. Tell the computer what you would do if you had the time to make the calculations. Nowadays it's easier (less lines of code, less detailed instructions) to tell the fsckers what you want of them, but it's still the same.


It should expose you to ideas and concepts you may rarely see in the real world, so would not "learn on the job", but which may occasionally prove useful.


I'm not sufficiently versed in the English language to [not mis]understand the above sentence.
You WILL "learn on the job". You should. Given the diversity of the industry, there is no school that could prepare you for the stuff you'll find "in the wild".



But a good student should still gain from the structured environment, the structured teaching.


A good student will know what he/she/it[1] needs and find the knowledge/guidance on his own.


Take two equal student just out of high-school, and send one off to work and learn on his own, and send the other to do an "adequate" CS course. Which will be the better all round computer guy after 4 years?

The one keeping in touch and not relying on aged textbooks/COBOL programmers to learn his/her/its[1] trade?

[1] It's unnatural for me to use gender-specific personal pronouns (we don't have them) so I'll use this construct instead if you don't mind. And if you do, too.

[niniendowarrior]

I took CS before and C was the base language to use for everything. I always thought teaching pure Java is a huge mistake for any CS course.

[Svartalf]

Count me ignorant, but... Java is a language like any other. It's "easier" than C, and it's designed to run on a VM, but it should be compilable to machine code just like any other language. The only difference is whether the programmer or the compiler is smarter...


I've found that people that solely rely on the compiler end up not being as good a developer than the ones that use the brains they were born with more than the machine's "smarts". The main problem with using Java over C/C++ is that there's a HUGE range of development that just simply can't use the sort of model Java presents to the developer. Moreover, if you use that to show "fundamental concepts", you end up not exposing the students to critical theory and they won't understand when it's appropriate to use Java and when it's not. Moreover, the model produces code that still has the GC and the other stuff, even when you native code compile it- it HAS to do that much or it's not Java.


And yes, 'programmers' using Java (or any other interpreted language - bytecode _is_ interpreted) for RT apps either don't know what they are doing or have incompetent management. (As if there was any other kind :))

Considering that if you're taught with Java, you won't typically be TAUGHT the distinction between VM/JIT interpreted versus native code compiled (After all, the stuff that doesn't use them are crufty old languages...), you won't KNOW the difference and try applying the only principles you know to all tasks. This is the reason why I consider it very iffy to be using it as anything to start people off with learning CS.

[Svartalf]

Shall I post the course detail then? It seems like you guys aren't really getting how much is covered in these classes. Either that or that it's covered too quickly. Let me know your thoughts.

Perhaps. But not on this thread. We've drifted RADICALLY from the original intent of the thread here, I'm afraid.
The gut level feel I've got is that you might get your foot in the door for doing game dev- but you won't have a good backing for things elsewhere if things go south on you or you don't get your foot in the door. It feels entirely too specialized.

I haven't really looked at UoP, but I'm not sure that's accredited, or what the program entails.

1) Accredited means that the coursework is recognized by other schools as being valid for a given degree program.

2) The Fullsail accreditation is through the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology, a national accreditation group primarily used by Technical Schools. Most four year schools will not recognize the accreditation or many of your credits- this also applies if you're going to gun for a Master's degree or higher. For Fullsail's credits to actually work the right way and have most of the credits count elsewhere if needed, they'd need to be accredited with the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools- which, they're not. Only Tech Schools really use this accreditation board.

3) UPX' accreditation is via the Higher Learning Council, which is the accreditation board for the North-Central Association of Colleges and Schools, which handles pretty much all the schools in the Midwest US and some in the Southwestern US. Even DeVry University is accredited with this organization and THEY started out as a Tech School University as well.

As for the coursework from UPX... It's an actual CS degree with all that which it entails. Here's a thought to consider in addition to what all I and others have told you up to this point.

IF, for example, you find yourself unable to get a game dev job because of layoff or downturn in the industry, do you think you would be able to retain a "boring" job elsewhere in the computer industry doing end-user applications or something like client-server development? If not, you might want to consider what would enable you to hold something down that could mean the difference between staying in something that might eventually lead back to game dev or washing out and doing odd-jobs or flipping burgers for many years. Fullsail, unfortunately, will leave you somewhat at a disadvantage to getting into better situations. The UPX, DeVry, or similar degree for the same price they're charging you won't.

[Svartalf]

that still had no idea about what a Singleton is or other elementary things

Heh... For the longest time I'd been coding with C++ and didn't know that one of the things I'd been doing was called a "Singleton"- I'd been using C++ from it's earliest of days (Hey, I was a programming language junkie- Awk, Icon, Snobol, Pascal, Modula, ADA, Forth, etc...). One should be careful with one's terminology and judging people by their knowledge or ignorance thereof. Singletons are from the "design pattern" crowd, which is a useful template for thinking in C++ or OO, but it's not the only useful one, mind, for C++ or OO- Booch had a few good ones as well, and there's a lot of others other than those two camps... ;)

[Svartalf]

Qualification means fsck all in this industry.

Only if you've got a resume with something like 8-12 pages... ;) :D

If you're starting out, the Qualification you get may mean the difference between getting the first job and not.

[xav1r]

...so, could we get back in topic, like, you konw, the ut3 linux client poll? :P

[Svartalf]

...so, could we get back in topic, like, you konw, the ut3 linux client poll? :P

Heh... Sometimes the silly thread drifts- lord only knows how many drifts my porting wishlist thread has drifted off topic... :D

The poll almost speaks for itself, really...

(And, besides, I tried to get it back on topic earlier- but there were so many responses that needed to be made... ;) )

[me262]

Yeah. Sorry about that. This tangent was my fault.

Game dev I'm sure won't my only talent. Linux server / IT administration is another, home theater assembly. I can build PS3's for a lot cheaper. There's a lot of options I can go with if I fail to get a grip in the industry, but I don't plan on failing though. They key I've always heard is to do something that no one else can, and then they can say "oh look, he does this, let's hire him so we can include that!" (Then again, that's contract work I'm sure).

Heh. Don't try to count the thread drifts on the Porting thread, or blood will shoot out your nose.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled topic...

[SlackerTD]

I voted Maybe as once the game is out, I need to find out if I like the game & that it can run on my system specs (not sure on this one). How long it takes to come out doesn't matter to me. I'll simply look at it as another Linux game I can play. :)

[xav1r]

Yeah. Sorry about that. This tangent was my fault.

Game dev I'm sure won't my only talent. Linux server / IT administration is another, home theater assembly. I can build PS3's for a lot cheaper. There's a lot of options I can go with if I fail to get a grip in the industry, but I don't plan on failing though. They key I've always heard is to do something that no one else can, and then they can say "oh look, he does this, let's hire him so we can include that!" (Then again, that's contract work I'm sure).

Heh. Don't try to count the thread drifts on the Porting thread, or blood will shoot out your nose.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled topic...

Ah, it's k man, interesting subjects you brought into the thread. ;) I myself want to get into the game industry too, and i dont plan on failing either.

[xav1r]

I voted Maybe as once the game is out, I need to find out if I like the game & that it can run on my system specs (not sure on this one). How long it takes to come out doesn't matter to me. I'll simply look at it as another Linux game I can play. :)

Do you play on linux only right now?

[Svartalf]

Do you play on linux only right now?

I think that his remarks would indicate that thinking... Me, I will only play if it's on Wii, PS2, or Linux. I'm still fence-sitting on the PS3 and there's no way you could convince me to buy an X-Box/X-Box 360, new or used. If someone gave me one, it'd just get hacked up to be something clean other than it's original purpose, unable to boot titles. :D

[RobbieAB]

Can't you get Linux on an X-Box(-360)?

[SlackerTD]

Do you play on linux only right now?I was only speaking of the PC in this case... there is also a Wii, PS2, DS & PSP in this house. XP is on my system, but I don't do any gaming in Windows.

[Svartalf]

Can't you get Linux on an X-Box(-360)?

The answer would be "yes"- but like buying Windows titles contributes to making more Windows titles...

A purchase of any X-Box product translates into more money in MS' pockets to do the things we don't like to us and sends a vote that you WANT that sort of thing.

Even buying an X-Box to put Linux on it is counterproductive.

[RobbieAB]

Ah, but if you were given it, the MS vote already has been sent, so why not subvert the hardware?

[Dragonlord]

@Svartalf: Yeah that's right. I chose a Singleton only as an example. I have seen people writing cluster-fucked code more ugly than spaghetti sent through a mill because they did not know/remember/whatever basic data structures or algorithms. For me coding is art. Everyone can write a program which works more or less but writing good code which runs good, looks good ( aka "self documenting code" ), is highly maintainable and extensible... that's an art... and I'm proud of being a real hacker ( and I hate un-artsy code :P ). Anyways, better not get derailed once again :D

@me262: Failing not planed? Something not all can do? Game-Dev is unfortunately no more the elite section it had been once. Granted the real elite ones are far and few in between but just look around the game development scene. Failing is an ever present threat there. I would really take getting turned down even if you are good into consideration. Better safe than sorry ;)

[xav1r]

The answer would be "yes"- but like buying Windows titles contributes to making more Windows titles...

A purchase of any X-Box product translates into more money in MS' pockets to do the things we don't like to us and sends a vote that you WANT that sort of thing.

Even buying an X-Box to put Linux on it is counterproductive.

More reason to buy a ps3 then. :D:D you can even install linux natively, with no hacks.

[Svartalf]

Ah, but if you were given it, the MS vote already has been sent, so why not subvert the hardware?

Well, I DID say if someone HANDED me one, I'd corrupt the thing completely from it's original purpose... ;)

[Svartalf]

More reason to buy a ps3 then. :D:D you can even install linux natively, with no hacks.

Indeed. I am, however, a bit ambivalent in that regard due to their parent's other division doing the Rootkit fiasco- yes, I know that SCEA didn't do it, but BMC IS Sony afterall. Something that narfy only comes from high-up within the company and they didn't have heads that rolled when it came out that they'd done this- first they wembled and tried to cover up the fact that they'd done this deed (and did it with someone else's software in the mix to boot, committing the very thing that they were allegedly trying to prevent, an infringement...) and then when they owned up to it, they had to be taken to court to be forced to stop doing it and to properly fix the machines they'd messed up.

[deanjo]

This thread is sooooooooooooooooooooo off topic

[RobbieAB]

Why are people so obsessed with muttering about how off topic threads get?

[me262]

I'm guessing it's because this thread isn't a thread. It's a poll.
The minor fact that UT3 is on the PS3 prior to Linux not prevailing...

You could just do what I did. Buy a PS3 with a bad disc drive for 100 bucks and replace the laser assembly yourself... there's quite a few youtube videos out there that disassemble the thing

You've got to hand it though, a cheap 733 processor for 60 bucks from Gamestop, you can buy 4 of them for 240, and it would make for a decent distcc cluster, or just something specialized for different purposes... Yeah. it's not as good an idea than I originally thought, when you can get a 64-bit dual-core system for less than the cost of 4 of those machines. Best to do a PS3 for 100 (provided it can still read CD-ROMs, like mine did before I installed a new assembly).

Well, I hadn't really taken failure into account. This is what I want to do, and I have enough drive, and determination that it's what I will make happen for my life.
Besides the fact that with the 75k I'll be dumping into it, I'd better get something from it...

[Svartalf]

Well, I hadn't really taken failure into account. This is what I want to do, and I have enough drive, and determination that it's what I will make happen for my life.
Besides the fact that with the 75k I'll be dumping into it, I'd better get something from it...

Heh... There IS a reason we were suggesting a slightly (in our opinion) better use of the $75k in the form of a slightly more general degree that'd help you accomplish a bit more if things went sideways on you for any reason. :D

It's not that it's a bad choice. It leaves less room for error. ;)

[xav1r]

Indeed. I am, however, a bit ambivalent in that regard due to their parent's other division doing the Rootkit fiasco- yes, I know that SCEA didn't do it, but BMC IS Sony afterall. Something that narfy only comes from high-up within the company and they didn't have heads that rolled when it came out that they'd done this- first they wembled and tried to cover up the fact that they'd done this deed (and did it with someone else's software in the mix to boot, committing the very thing that they were allegedly trying to prevent, an infringement...) and then when they owned up to it, they had to be taken to court to be forced to stop doing it and to properly fix the machines they'd messed up.

Well, of course SCEA isnt an altruistic company as opposed to the loathsome M$, just take the results of these companies' efforts in beating the competition and modify them. Which brings me to a cool idea. What if we all buy a ps3 to play ut3 on it? Then install linux on the ps3 and run the ut3 ps3 mod tools on it with wine, to create mods for ut3? I guess thats the closest thing to ut3 on the linux platform so far. :D:D

[Svartalf]

Well, of course SCEA isnt an altruistic company as opposed to the loathsome M$, just take the results of these companies' efforts in beating the competition and modify them. Which brings me to a cool idea. What if we all buy a ps3 to play ut3 on it? Then install linux on the ps3 and run the ut3 ps3 mod tools on it with wine, to create mods for ut3? I guess thats the closest thing to ut3 on the linux platform so far. :D:D

You know... If it's not on Linux, it's just not worth all of that. Seriously. You're jumping through flaming hoops, buying a title for a different platform from the one you WANTED it to run on from someone that had a serious release date slip on you.

If they ship here soon, I'll buy. Otherwise, it's just not worth all of that to me.

[xav1r]

Didnt you say a few posts ago that you would mod the xbox360 so that it serves a completely different purpose? This is more or less like that too! :)