Will Wright's SPORE makes customers angry (DRM inside)

[domkop]

Taking a quick look at the Amazon.com page for SPORE I was amazed to read the opinion of so many angry customers, the reason behind all the madness and turmoil comes down to Electronic Arts' (excessive) use of DRM, which uses SecuROM.

Such a scenario happened in the past with MASS EFFECT but after so many complaints from actual buyers EA have decided to remove the copy protection.

If you don't quite understand what this is all about: EA limits the installation of SPORE up to three times. Afterwards you are required to phone EA (calling is not free, of course) and beg them to give you the right to one more installation, but then the odds are good that you will be regarded as a naughty (one-eyed) pirate, and you should expect lots of questions as to why you need to 'rent' the game again. Whereas people who downloaded it for free are by no means bothered by this hassle.

I think this is just insane and EA should be ashamed of treating their customers as junk, and if this is indeed what we're heading to with Linux -LGP introducing their new game copy protection- I believe I will no longer use my PC as a gaming platform. Or playing open source games is the only alternate way.

Would you buy a product that is so crippled? How can we avoid such drastic measures on our side?

[niniendowarrior]

We all have a clear stance on copy protection. It sucks and it doesn't work. What you have to note though is that EA doesn't see it that way. Angry customers? Guess what? Red Alert 3 will ship with SecuRom too. They don't listen.

In my opinion, we've all badgered, whined, and screamed that copy protection is foul play... treat us like thieves, bla bla bla. All of it, true, but it doesn't change the fact that EA doesn't see it that way and will probably... never.

[Dragonix]

Angry customers? Guess what? Red Alert 3 will ship with SecuRom too. They don't listen. << But you can have it installed on 5 pcs similar. And when you uninstall it, you can install it another time. You're even allowed to play on a small lan (up to 5 pcs) with only 1 dvd (and when they uninstall it, again, you can install it on another 5 pcs). Seems quiet fair. Though, EA sucks ==> I won't buy it.

[Svartalf]

Apparently the people buying it actually LIKE what EA is doing to them (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/9/)...

[xav1r]

Another PC game i wont be buying then. Thank you EA for making me save my money! :D Seriously, who would buy a product that comes with a pair of handcuffs that you have to wear before you can use it? That's what copy-protection schemes boil down to, and it's BS.

[me262]

Oddly enough, this is what Windows has been doing since Windows XP.

I am for SOME form of DRM, to make the companies at ease, and to prevent mom and pop from copying it (see Steam thread (http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12319&page=4)), but this type of implementation isn't it. This is Microsoft's way of thinking, "licensing" a user to play instead of a user owning a copy.

[Dragonlord]

Huh? Who runs a windows copy he activated? For sure I do not ( except on the laptop where it is OEM activated ). Next to all use an anti-activation crack to get rid of this step. Did this with all my legit copies. Phoning home to M$? I would die first before doing that :P

As mentioned somewhere, it takes a large crash in the games industries due to DRM before they wake up. They are like potatoes... eyes open just after they hit the dirt :D

[Svartalf]

They are like potatoes... eyes open just after they hit the dirt :D

ROFLMAO! Lovely analogy, that...

[xav1r]

Huh? Who runs a windows copy he activated? For sure I do not ( except on the laptop where it is OEM activated ). Next to all use an anti-activation crack to get rid of this step. Did this with all my legit copies. Phoning home to M$? I would die first before doing that :P

As mentioned somewhere, it takes a large crash in the games industries due to DRM before they wake up. They are like potatoes... eyes open just after they hit the dirt :D

Dragonlord, your humor is just so deliciously funny. :D:D

[domkop]

Actually, I don't buy Windows games (I used to) or use that operating system for any task whatsoever. However, my brother wanted me to dual boot with XP because he's such a hardcore pc gamer, his favorite game at the moment being AGE OF CONAN: HYBORIAN ADVENTURES and I have to say this is one title I'm drooling over, sometimes I wish I had that for Linux as well. It was also his plan to purchase SPORE some time in the future but fortunately I managed to talk him out of it. All I'm saying it was my duty to warn him about and protect him from these abusive methods.

Obviously I don't play that many games, if compared to my brother. Yet, when intentionally leaving all the shiny pretty little things behind and not having to buy a new game every month I think I have grown more appreciative of the very few titles I was given the right to play on my Linux box, with even more in-depth gameplay time allowed.

So treat me or my brother like a thief and we'll be glad to disappoint you, EA. Especially on an OS I don't give a monkey's nuts about. Besides Tux has bigger nuts. :D

[Dragonlord]

Especially on an OS I don't give a monkey's nuts about. Besides Tux has bigger nuts. :D
:D . This one though had been OLOTD ( One-Liner of the day ) worthy too :cool:

[Svartalf]

:D . This one though had been OLOTD ( One-Liner of the day ) worthy too :cool:

Yeah, I have to admit, that was a gem too. :D

[xav1r]

Well, I have read that Spore is actually a very good, very fun game to play. Sucks that not many people will see that because of the draconian DRM it has installed.

[Chris]

Well, I have read that Spore is actually a very good, very fun game to play.
I've heard that, as long as you like casual Sim-type games (which I do not; casual, yes, Sim, no).

Relevant: http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994
And another guy bought a [PC] game, and he's in the armed forces, he's in Iraq actually. And the people there, not everybody there is in combat all the time, they're just stationed there, and they often don't have internet access. So he gets a game, it's single-player only--you can probably guess what game it is, pretty big-name game. And he can't play it because it insists on connecting to the internet to play it. And he's just like, "That's it. I can buy an Xbox 360 or a PlayStation 3, and I'm not putting up with this. It just works."
And it doesn't work on their machine, and they go back to the store, and the store goes, "You can't return a game, you opened it." And so they're like, "Screw this, I'll just get a console game."
The answer is that you focus on people who buy your stuff, who will buy computer software. The game industry is the only industry that I know of that sweats people playing their games even if they were never gonna buy them. It's completely different form the software industry in this regard. Adobe for example--I'm sure they don't like the fact that people pirate Adobe Photoshop, but I doubt they're losing sleep over it. There's no major common business software that I can think of where they go through the elaborate lengths to control piracy that the game industry does.

[xav1r]

Well, yea Chris, that's true for the beggining and middle stages of the game, but from what i read the game gets really hardcore when you reach the final technology stage, where it becomes some sort of space RTS game.

[Chris]

From what I've heard, the game is definitely not for the hardcore crowd (RTS or no). On top of that, the first three stages feel like just leadups to the fourth/final stage when the game really starts.

The game is basically Sim Universe. It may have RTS elements, but it's not on par with the likes of Starcraft or Warcraft.

[xav1r]

From what I've heard, the game is definitely not for the hardcore crowd (RTS or no). On top of that, the first three stages feel like just leadups to the fourth/final stage when the game really starts.

The game is basically Sim Universe. It may have RTS elements, but it's not on par with the likes of Starcraft or Warcraft.

Hehehe, you really want to put that game down, dont you? :D :D Ok with me, I didnt make the game, nor im going to play it, its just not my type of game. :)

[Dragonlord]

I definitely had more fun shoving the back of my gardening stick into a Pretztails... erm... candy slot :D

[Chris]

Hehehe, you really want to put that game down, dont you?
I'm just repeating what I heard. :) Even among people that like and enjoy the game, they say it doesn't really pick up until the 4th stage, and that it's not a hardcore game (which is a reason why they like it).

[RealNC]

SecuROM has been cracked/emulated/circumvented/etc/etc/etc already. Only legit customers are treated like junk, the warez dudes only laugh at them cause they're not affected by the copy protection at all.

Some suits in those big companies seem to have the I.Q. of a potato. Makes you wonder how they got their position in the first place.

[sc3252]

SecuROM has been cracked/emulated/circumvented/etc/etc/etc already. Only legit customers are treated like junk, the warez dudes only laugh at them cause they're not affected by the copy protection at all.

Some suits in those big companies seem to have the I.Q. of a potato. Makes you wonder how they got their position in the first place.

My friend got the game before it came out on a torrent. he doesn't have to deal with the securerom....

[Julius]

Well I might be completely wrong, but I think the reason for the limited installs isn't the warez guys, but limiting 2nd hand resale.

[Dragonlord]

Which is as moronic as the other one. 2nd hand is a big deal. Sure for these sold copies you get nothing but hey that's like selling cars which blow up once you try to sell it to somebody else. It's just a brain-fucked idea to do it. Some shops around here even exist mainly due to 2nd hand business.

[RobbieAB]

Plus limiting resale is of questionable legality. You buy the game, you own the game, you can do what you like with the game.

If that's the legal opinion for AutoCAD, it's certainly going to be the opinion for games... They can claim EULA, but that claim has no legal relevance unless the courts agree with it.

[xav1r]

Their reasoning is that while "business productivity" software can be sold as volume license packages, and lots of money can be made through forced updates and tech support, games do not have any of that. The only source of income from entertaintment software is through the good ole retail shelf sales.

[Julius]

Plus limiting resale is of questionable legality. You buy the game, you own the game, you can do what you like with the game.

That's why they would never admit that is to limit 2nd hand resale, and always talk about the "pirates".

But fact is that it limits 2nd hand resale (or giving it to a friend for free after finishing it), and I think that is the sole reason why such a "copy protection" exists today.

[Deacon]

That's why they would never admit that is to limit 2nd hand resale, and always talk about the "pirates".

But fact is that it limits 2nd hand resale (or giving it to a friend for free after finishing it), and I think that is the sole reason why such a "copy protection" exists today.

That's what i was thinking too. I even see another "Steam" around the corner. This time from EA :eek:

[Dragonlord]

Steam from EA? I don't know what it would look like but it would be really bad for any party involved :P

[Ex-Cyber]

Plus limiting resale is of questionable legality. You buy the game, you own the game, you can do what you like with the game.I see where you're coming from, but the DMCA and similar laws screwed up this logic. Even if you do own an authorized copy (which is, despite the pseudo-legal gibberish in EULAs, what happens when you put a software box on the checkout counter at Best Buy and give them money for it), the application of DRM apparently makes it illegal to use it in ways that would otherwise be legal, because bypassing the DRM (or distributing the tools to do so) is itself illegal. This gives publishers veto power over almost every practical use. This is why the anti-circumvention part of the DMCA is so awful: it's "copyright" in name only, and grants a vast new pseudo-right to publishers to restrict use in virtually any way that can be enforced by a DRM scheme. It's like a privilege escalation exploit in legal code, and the US Senate passed it 99-0. We need a better auditing process. :o

[RobbieAB]

Has the DMCA yet been tested in the Supreme Court? Does it apply in other jurisdictions?

The DMCA is only as powerful as the courts willingness to support it...

[Ex-Cyber]

Has the DMCA yet been tested in the Supreme Court?No. That means it is presumed to be valid law.

Does it apply in other jurisdictions?Not directly, but the WIPO Copyright Treaty seems to mandate laws at least vaguely resembling DMCA, and such laws have been proposed in some countries (perhaps most notably Canada's Bill C-61, which was described as "worse than DMCA").

The DMCA is only as powerful as the courts willingness to support it...Which is, thus far, somewhat mixed. Some decisions are encouraging (Lexmark v. Static Control Components; Chamberlain Group v. Sylink; StorageTek v. Custom Hardware), others are not (Blizzard v. BNETD; Macrovision v. Sima). Either way, it doesn't look like judges are jumping at the chance to strike down DMCA in general.

[xav1r]

BTW, before someone starts the corresponding thread, Red Alert 3, also by EA, will have that same DRM scheme as Spore does. Let the bashing begin. :)

[Aradreth]

You can pretty much assume all games developed by EA from now on will have this form of DRM. But with EA's ability to put out a product that works properly you might end up being glad that at least one part of the game works as expected. Hell you can think of it as two games, one that works (DRM) and one that doesn't. You complete your DRM adventure when you finally get the game to run and with each install the adventure becomes harder.

[Dragonlord]

Oh, this is going to be bad. Best example just happened yesterday. Tested the Stalker-CS patch 4. While version 3 worked not so did version 4. So had to wipe the game, reinstall, patch version 4. Still no luck. Another wiping, reinstall, patch version 3. Back to working grounds. Now what did this patch give us? 3 reinstalls ( including first installation )! Now imagine this happens with DRM 3-install limit. Patch they make fails for some reason? Kiss your game good-bye since you can no more fix it ( as another reinstall kills it ).

[xav1r]

Oh, this is going to be bad. Best example just happened yesterday. Tested the Stalker-CS patch 4. While version 3 worked not so did version 4. So had to wipe the game, reinstall, patch version 4. Still no luck. Another wiping, reinstall, patch version 3. Back to working grounds. Now what did this patch give us? 3 reinstalls ( including first installation )! Now imagine this happens with DRM 3-install limit. Patch they make fails for some reason? Kiss your game good-bye since you can no more fix it ( as another reinstall kills it ).

So if i understood, you currently can't play stalker CS because of patch 4? I ask because i want to play that game, but if its that much of a problem to play then i wont.

[Dragonlord]

It depends. From what I gather around the net this game ( or rather the engine below I suspect ) is rather touchy when it comes to hardware. I can play S:CS on my developer station here ( vanilla XP/SP2, just dev tools installed, no m$ pathces/updates ) with patch v3 without a problem ( well... Red Forest map gave me a run for the money but I assume it has been because I somehow broke the script unintentionally ) but with v4 crashes whenever I go into the PDA. Others with Vista seem to have troubles with any patch so far but you have to try. At last with a vanilla XP/SP2 and patch v3 it should work well. Just try to never break the script ;)

[ivanovic]

And it looks like EA now has to face the result of their "oh so great" copy protection:
Spore's Piracy Problem (http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/12/spore-drm-piracy-tech-security-cx_ag_mji_0912spore.html?partner=alerts)

The sad thing is that I don't think that these number will make EA think about their system. Instead they will just say "ah, you thieves, you musn't do this and no, we are not even partly to be blamed for it".

I still vote for a copy protection like realized in Ankh2 (even in the Linux version). They include a codewheel which you have to use after some time of playing to solve one of the riddles. No cdcheck (even in the Windows version) and no DRM that is hurting the users. Beside this, this copy protection is non intrusive and platform independent. Sure, it will not kill every pirate since there are keygens emulating this wheel, but other copy protections do not work either...

[Kano]

Nobody "emulates" that codewheel. Usually those checks are disabled (or replaced by a decrypted exe). All is a matter of time.

[ivanovic]

Nobody "emulates" that codewheel. Usually those checks are disabled (or replaced by a decrypted exe). All is a matter of time.

Trust me, it is emulated. That is: this is a "normal" riddle to solve in the game, not a startup check. And creating a prog that acts as codewheel is rather simple, so this is a lot easier than modifying the binary itself.

[Kano]

Ok, in that case... Well you see I did not play it ;)

[me262]

Remember those codewheels... wow.

How about some special printing on the CD that shows up only on a red color filter? ^_^ Now that would be interesting. You'd need the real disc, because scanners and pictures would screw up the coloring.
"What symbol appears in the 3rd row, column 4?" And you'd hold the disc against the red filter, pick the right one, prompts to insert the disc...
Now THERE'S a new twist on an old idea. ^_^

[Dragonlord]

Sorry, no deal. The code wheel is a fancy boolean check. At one point in the code there is a CMP call and a JNE or JE call. The solution is like always the NOP ( To quote the G-Man: A NOP in the right place can make all the difference in the world ;) ).

[Kano]

That's clear if the code is not obfusticated, I did the same to fgrlx_drv.so as Xserver 1.4 patch, a nop or a normal jmp instead of a conditional jump is what to change.

[Dragonlord]

Obfuscating makes it harder... but not much. Games nowadays are still mostly cracked with the same NOP trick, no matter how obfuscated this is.

[Kano]

Well using a debugger it seems to be more easy than doing a static analysis like for fglrx. But at least the symbols had nice names ;)

[me262]

Ouch...
Looks like EA's paying the price BIG time...

EA gets class-action sued over Spore DRM: http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/15499.cfm
http://www.simprograms.com/images/games/Spore%20-%20DRM%20Class%20Action%20Lawsuit.pdf

The related articles too... ouch...
EA threatens forum users with ban for DRM talk: http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/15485.cfm
Amazon deleted Spore user reviews?: http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/15403.cfm

[xav1r]

DRM seems like those tags that stick out of those blankets with a warning not to remove them, and serve no purpose, other than to annoy, and thus everybody does remove them. :D

[Dragonlord]

It's not going to help anything. EA has deep pockets and they care shit about their customers ( as seen tons of times before ). It's causing some rattling but that's all. They are not going to be sued and they are not going to change... unless people "actively stop being their shit". You can hit such companies only over their moneybag. But people seem to take DRM and moan instead of boykotting the company by not buying their products.

[Chris]

They are not going to be sued and they are not going to change... unless people "actively stop being their shit". You can hit such companies only over their moneybag. But people seem to take DRM and moan instead of boykotting the company by not buying their products.
I think that's part of the problem. Those that do know about it don't buy it. But not everyone knows, or cares, or knows just how bad it is. They'd only know something's wrong when things start breaking, and at that point they either just bring in the system for repairs, or just wipe/reinstall the OS because "Windows broke".. then go over to consoles because they don't have to deal with this crap there. :P

[deanjo]

Attempted boycotts won't ever work, it's just not logistically possible to reach that many people that share the same view that it will make a real dent in their sales. You cannot measure people "actively boycotting" because for every 1 person that says they will not buy because of a issue there will be 20 others that pipe in saying "me too" even though they had no real intention of getting it in the first place and the publishers know that.

[me262]

Attempted boycotts won't ever work, it's just not logistically possible to reach that many people that share the same view that it will make a real dent in their sales. You cannot measure people "actively boycotting" because for every 1 person that says they will not buy because of a issue there will be 20 others that pipe in saying "me too" even though they had no real intention of getting it in the first place and the publishers know that.
That's true. For all the people in that case file, there's probably about 100 people that don't say anything compared to that 1 person that takes up an issue (and I know the given scale isn't accurate. at all).
It's the same when people boycott the TV networks because they've killed a good show early on (*cough* Fox *cough* Firefly *cough*), it never really sticks because they release something good eventually (*cough* Terminator SCC *cough* (can you tell I'm a Summer Glau fan?)), and people that may have promised not to watch, watch anyway. The people that stick to their guns are so marginal and minor that it makes little difference (if at all).
Still, internet news travels fast. And this is nearly the final straw despite EA increasing from 3 to 5 installs (whoo! giving us more install attempts! oh joy! oh rapture!).