2008 Linux Graphics Survey Results

[phoronix]

Phoronix: 2008 Linux Graphics Survey Results

Last week our annual Linux Graphics Survey ended. There were over 14,000 submissions this year to the eleven questions we asked pertaining to X.Org, Linux desktop usage, and graphics hardware. In this article are all of the results from this year's survey.

http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=13284

[Eragon]

How can people keep saying linux is not suited for "normal" users if 56% of it's users describe themselves as "mainstream users"??

[DoDoENT]

I'm surprised that more people are interested in KMS than in DRI2, although most of them complain about video tearing and not being able to play 3D games while having a composite manager turned on (and the DRI2 should solve that problem with proprietary drivers like fglrx). For that reason, I've disabled my desktop effects, although I was able to play videos without tearing whilst using an open source radeon driver. The problem was that this driver couldn't give enough FPS while playing 3D games, and it lacked power play, which I require a lot, because I'm using linux on my laptop. (Currently I'm using catalyst 8.12)

[Eragon]

I'm surprised that more people are interested in KMS than in DRI2, although most of them complain about video tearing and not being able to play 3D games while having a composite manager turned on (and the DRI2 should solve that problem with proprietary drivers like fglrx). For that reason, I've disabled my desktop effects, although I was able to play videos without tearing whilst using an open source radeon driver. The problem was that this driver couldn't give enough FPS while playing 3D games, and it lacked power play, which I require a lot, because I'm using linux on my laptop. (Currently I'm using catalyst 8.12)

I agree. I look forward to DRI2 a lot more than to KMS too.

What is so special about KMS? A flicker-free boot experience doesn't seem very important to me, I mean, it's only 50 seconds, who cares!?

If your boot time is so long you get annoyed by some flickering, you should seriously consider buying a new pc/hardware. KMS also allows for BSOD-like error messages, but quite frankly, I am happy to say that I (almost) never have a complete chrash here on Ubuntu. It's not windows, damnit!

[Stedevil]

What is so special about KMS? A flicker-free boot experience doesn't seem very important to me, I mean, it's only 50 seconds, who cares!?


Exactly.

But I am equally surprised about DRI2 coming in 2nd... because everything works just fine as long as compositing is turned off. And who needs nonsense like wobbly windows etc? It just slows down the User-Computer interaction. At least I have better things to do than look at "cool" (aka overhyped) desktop effects, eg like actually use my computer.

Meanwhile, seriously useful things like MPX, get almost no interest at all. Just imagine how great it would be to have 2+ users play the same game using mouse&keyboard (things already taken for granted eg on eg XBOX and PS) and/or have the kid manage their cartoons watching on one screen while daddy surfs the net or writes an email, completely without disturbing each other.

My only explanation, people taking part in these type of surveys mostly are the ones that get dazzled by latest graphics hype of no real use, and couldnt care less for actually useful features. :rolleyes:

[deanjo]

I really wished that the poll would not have allowed taking it more then one time. Because of it, the results are completely unreliable.

[Milyardo]

Exactly.

But I am equally surprised about DRI2 coming in 2nd... because everything works just fine as long as compositing is turned off. And who needs nonsense like wobbly windows etc? It just slows down the User-Computer interaction. At least I have better things to do than look at "cool" (aka overhyped) desktop effects, eg like actually use my computer.

Meanwhile, seriously useful things like MPX, get almost no interest at all. Just imagine how great it would be to have 2+ users play the same game using mouse&keyboard (things already taken for granted eg on eg XBOX and PS) and/or have the kid manage their cartoons watching on one screen while daddy surfs the net or writes an email, completely without disturbing each other.

My only explanation, people taking part in these type of surveys mostly are the ones that get dazzled by latest graphics hype of no real use, and couldnt care less for actually useful features. :rolleyes:

One reason why KMS may have come before DRI2 may be that many users still don't understand what DRI2 is. Or at least thats the impression I got when I asked around the office today about why they voted what on the survey.

[bridgman]

Not sure how many folks taking the survey feel this way, but my main interest in KMS is that it can at least help with making suspend/resume more robust.

Then again, it seems like every year the survey results indicate that new features and opengl performance are more important than stability and solid suspend/resume; but the forum posts seem to lean heavily the other way.

[miles]

I think I just voted for the less sought after freatures... MPX especially, since that would allow easy multi-seat configuration.

@bridgman I think opengl performance is quite important for people that use hardware where drivers aren't on par as what they could get in Windows. I don't play often, but having to get a Windows install to do so, or buy another hardware (= console) would be painful, even if it wouldn't be used as much as suspend/resume.

You can work around suspend/resume (you can still save your session and shutdown...) and it's also improved a lot. You can't work around having dismal opengl performance (installing Windows is a bad workaround, and buying another graphic card isn't convenient either).

However, I'd put Gallium3D over proprietary OpenGL performance, but mostly because Nvidia's solutions works great already, and Galluim3D would add its own advantages without removing what 40% of Linux users already enjoy ;)

[mattmatteh]

What is so special about KMS? A flicker-free boot experience doesn't seem very important to me, I mean, it's only 50 seconds, who cares!?i use console sometimes and really hate that 1980's looking huge ugly font. (framebuffer wasnt working)

[XVampireX]

Hey folks, I was actually one of those participating in this survey, and to be honest, the results are amazing.

I put several answers where I could (Most areas, no?) because it is very important that Linux got whatever it could and it doesn't matter if KMS or DRI2 should have a priority, they both should be in, because they both increase the appeal of using Linux as a better operating system.

Regarding my points of interests especially though, I'd say that Gallium3D is actually something I am going to look forward to, as well as Nouveau in it, because when Nouveau gets up to par with the binary driver, we won't need to be dependent on the NVidia drivers. The composite 2d/3d performance will always be better, bugs will be fixed almost as soon as they are reported. And besides, 1 Infrastructure for all drivers, why have 10000000 different drivers for different GPUs?

But seriously, Linux users, congrats, I think with this survey we have a chance to impress even the big companies who think we're a minority (And yes I'm sorry that I'm using Vista right now but gaming and music creation is something I need! Don't worry though I use Linux for those stuff too just that there's just not the same amount of content)

[Jimmy]

How can people keep saying linux is not suited for "normal" users if 56% of it's users describe themselves as "mainstream users"??

I think most people read it as "Mainstream Linux user" instead of "Mainstream computer user." Mainstream Linux users generally do crazy things like compile software. Not mainstream in the grand scheme but mainstream for Linux.

What's also interesting is the number of folks that find it necessary to edit xorg.conf manually. I think that alone should serve very well to say that configuring X is a pain and probably impossible for grandma. Well... that is if grandma plays games and wants 3D. Most distributions are getting good at reasonable defaults that "just work." They work well enough that unless you try to game you won't notice. Lots of grandmas don't game, don't use multiple monitors, etc.

Ether way you look at it, I think there's plenty of room for a configuration tool which is needed toward the end of Linux adoption by the average joe Windows (mainstream) user.

---

I was disappointed that Desktop Effects beat out gaming if by a smidgen. That's just me I guess. On the other hand I'd care more for desktop effects if they didn't break my gaming, and if it didn't require so much tweaking and configuration. At home I spend more time running full screen games than I do wobbling windows or spinning a cube. At work, I don't need to impress anyone or spend time setting up desktop effects. So for both work and play it just doesn't fit for me. So I voted for games games games! :)

The other interesting thing that surprised me was the adoption of X11 release 7.4. I expected more 7.3s and 7.2s. I suppose those results could be biased by the type of people who frequent here at Phoronix which seem to be more the bleeding edge type crowd. I'd be in the 7.4 group but something with my distro repository and the proprietary Nvidia drivers has a problem with an x11-input package. The 3d stuff works but it kills my keyboard and mouse. If I stuck with the distro provided drivers it'd work but I wouldn't be able to try the latest beta drivers out. Still, I'm glad to see that 7.4 is out there so soon.

[fart_flower]

KMS also removes the need for the X server to fiddle around in kernel space, which is a "good thing" from a stability and/or security standpoint. Or so I've been led to believe...

[deanjo]

KMS also removes the need for the X server to fiddle around in kernel space, which is a "good thing" from a stability and/or security standpoint. Or so I've been led to believe...

In "theory", and we all know that theory doesn't necessarily mean that real-life execution will reflect that.

[fart_flower]

In "theory", and we all know that theory doesn't necessarily mean that real-life execution will reflect that.

That's just your theory. I have my own.

[RobbieAB]

What bothered me slightly was the lack of an option to vote for XRandR. As a laptop user, it is more interesting to me than pretty much anything else bar stability, as projectors and external monitors are an important part of using a mobile laptop in any kind of business environment.

[KDesk]

But... KMS needs DRI2, so, the pool was wrong. It should have been DRI2 or KMS (and DRI2) and the other options also.

[miles]

In my mind, xrandr was in "Display-related features". Considering it's mostly waiting for all proprietary drivers to pick up, it's more in "What do you expect in proprietary drivers" than "What are you most interested in Xorg".

Whatever xrandr does, as long as the drivers don't support it there's not much point. And seeing how users don't really use the graphic card tool to configure their setup, you'd say it would make sense for the drivers publisher to implement xrandr support a bit faster.

[deanjo]

That's just your theory. I have my own.


That's not my theory at all. It's fact that despite best intentions and planning thing don't always go as well as expected. Until actual implementation is actually out there and performing as well as expected it's pure speculation.

[RobbieAB]

What are you looking for in it? If the system can automagically deal with having a projector plugged in (this requires a reasonable amount of magic) it makes selling Linux as a laptop OS to business people who expect to make presentations a lot easier. If the projector has to be configured by tweaking xorg.conf, and restarting, you do not have a business laptop OS.

That magic is XRandR, it may need driver help, but to say it is just a matter for the proprietry drivers to catch up is nonsense as, IIRC, openChrome is an open source driver.

To push Linux on laptops, you needs automagic and effortless multi-monitor support, you need hot-plugable displays, and you need all this to be completely invisible to the user. Windows has done it for years, as has MacOS. Linux has "innovated" with eye-candy instead...

[bridgman]

But... KMS needs DRI2, so, the pool was wrong. It should have been DRI2 or KMS (and DRI2) and the other options also.

My understanding was that KMS needed memory management (GEM/TTM), DRI2 also needed memory management but KMS did not need DRI2. They will probably arrive at more or less the same time, however, since they both become possible as soon as memory management is available, and both are considered really high priority by the developers.

EDIT - bah, ASCII diagram didn't work ;(

[KDesk]

My understanding was that KMS needed memory management (GEM/TTM), DRI2 also needed memory management but KMS did not need DRI2. They will probably arrive at more or less the same time, however, since they both become possible as soon as memory management is available, and both are considered really high priority by the developers.

EDIT - bah, ASCII diagram didn't work ;(

Oh, yes, you are complete right! :p The share the memory manager in common... and not DRI2.

[dbmuse]

How can people keep saying linux is not suited for "normal" users if 56% of it's users describe themselves as "mainstream users"??

Of the four choices available in the survey, IMHO the closest choice to normal was mainstream. The survey is still available in review fashion which helps see how questions and answers can sometimes skew perception of answers. I was looking to see how the survey handled the question of hardware because I have own or use via work a combination of linux booting computers (ex: macbook pro with nvida, two dell laptops with ati, eeepc, amd tower with nvida). The multiple choice answer to that question came close to capturing my collection but is still skewed (IMHO) because it doesn't show the count per manufacturer.

[Stedevil]

Windows has done it for years, as has MacOS. Linux has "innovated" with eye-candy instead...

That is the very sad truth!

[fart_flower]

That's not my theory at all.

If that's the case, do you have an appropriate 3rd party licence?



It's fact that despite best intentions and planning thing don't always go as well as expected. Until actual implementation is actually out there and performing as well as expected it's pure speculation.

Geez... I was just being silly. No need to drive home an obvious point. I hope you didn't burst a vein coming up with your response.

[Kano]

I highly doubt that somebody really needs kms. At least it does not matter for me if switching to a vt takes a few monents or if the default res is already the highest possible. Stability is much more important - also correct rendering and flickerfree videos/games when Vsync is enabled. The rest it nice to have, but not a requirement.

[elanthis]

I highly doubt that somebody really needs kms.

And you're wrong. KMS is extremely important for suspend and hibernation, which is critical for laptop users. It's a huge boon for display hotplug. It's mandatory for developing alternative graphics stacks without duplicating a metric shitload of driver code.

KMS is way more interesting to me than DRI2 is. GEM interests me most of all, of course. Without it, neither DRI2 nor KMS could really work. :)

[Kano]

Ok, I do not own a laptop, so I never use suspend. Hibernation/Suspend to Disk is useless anyway because you would read in worst case more data than you would do with a normal boot when you memory is big and used.

[bridgman]

I guess the argument for suspend/resume is that it maintains your application state as well ?

The other advantage to KMS I see is that it puts all of the state info you need for good power management in one place. Right now the engine state is in drm (unless you're running without 3d) and the display state is in ddx, but you really need both to make on-the-fly power management decisions.

[DoDoENT]

Ok, I do not own a laptop, so I never use suspend. Hibernation/Suspend to Disk is useless anyway because you would read in worst case more data than you would do with a normal boot when you memory is big and used.

This is true for hibernation/suspend to disk. But what about suspend to RAM? Most of laptop users use it a lot. And it still is at least 2 times slower than on windows (especially while using fglrx - open source driver suspends and resumes the graphics quicker, but still slower than windows!).

[Svartalf]

Ok, I do not own a laptop, so I never use suspend. Hibernation/Suspend to Disk is useless anyway because you would read in worst case more data than you would do with a normal boot when you memory is big and used.

That's not 100% accurate, Kano... Suspending to disk takes a snapshot of the system RAM and flushes it to disk, where it resides until you restart. It's "less useful" than saving files out for many instances, but there may be instances where you want it to be just where you left off (There have been instances thereof in my past, I just won't bore anyone with them... ;) ). It's just not useful to you in your past experience. That, my friend, doesn't make it useless to everyone. :D

[Jimmy]

I'm glad others have done their homework. Had I done mine, I would have voted for KMS too. I guess it's just poorly described. Flicker free boot...who cares. Better suspend/resume you say? Now I seem to care a bit more.

[RonJohn]

And you're wrong. KMS is extremely important for suspend and hibernation, which is critical for laptop users. It's a huge boon for display hotplug.

Interesting. This should be emphasized more often.

KMS is way more interesting to me than DRI2 is. GEM interests me most of all, of course. Without it, neither DRI2 nor KMS could really work. :)

Which of these actually controls drawing pixels on the console? DRI/DRI2?

I ask that because currently I use the nvidia binary driver, but boot directly in text-only console mode, and I can (if X is horked) work from it or easily switch to the nv driver (symlinks are soooo handy!) and get to the GUI if it's just the nvidia driver.

[_txf_]

Ok, I do not own a laptop, so I never use suspend. Hibernation/Suspend to Disk is useless anyway because you would read in worst case more data than you would do with a normal boot when you memory is big and used.

I beg to differ. ATM it is far faster for me to suspend to disk than it is to boot up a fresh new session, open all my apps and files, that is when it doesn't completely screw up and then you're stuck with the penalty of actually having to restart. The utility of suspend to disk is reduced, in my opinion, by suspend to ram (hibernate).

Personally I use hibernate, which is lightning fast and these days and laptops can last days on suspend whilst running on battery.