A Battle For Good Open-Source Game Graphics?

[phoronix]

Phoronix: A Battle For Good Open-Source Game Graphics?

An area where open-source games have traditionally lacked is with regard to delivering high-end graphics capabilities that can compete with modern day commercial games. To this day, many open-source games still look like something that would have been pushed out of a commercial game studio years ago due to lacking proper artwork and a game engine that has an OpenGL renderer that can sustain delivering impressive graphical features with modern hardware...

http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=NzIzMQ

[superppl]

I just want to throw in my 2 cents:
Enough with the fancy graphics; lets see some gameplay effecting physics.
Remember how in the Crysis demo you can take a jeep, drive it into a building, the building collapes, then you back up into a tree and it falls down too? I want to see more of that on a larger scale.
We already have a commercial quality open source physics engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_(software)) and with graphic hardware far exceeding the requirements of most open source titles, performance shouldn't be a problem.
I mean, look at warmonger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmonger:_Operation_Downtown_Destruction) if you need inspiration.

[Ex-Cyber]

id Tech 4 is supposed to see a GPL release this year (at least that's what Carmack said in August '08). That might be a nice shot in the arm for open-source gaming technology.

[sloggerKhan]

I think a big bottleneck for open source games is not even as much having the engine as it is having large communities of people who can actually build content for said engines.

[d2kx]

The new Sauerbraten release is scheduled for next week (the week after if there's a problem). You should definitly check that one out then!

[curaga]

Why is everyone so focused on graphics. I'd dump crysis any day for a game that has both great gameplay and a great story.

[EvilGuru]

As a developer for the GNU GPL game Warzone 2100 (which was originally developed and released by Pumpkin Studios in 1999 before they were disbanded; released under the GNU GPL in 2004) the problem is not so much updating the engine but rather finding artists to make content for it.

You'd be surprised how much can be done with pure brute force -- high resolution textures, high poly models and some blending. Take the new terrain renderer in Warzone 2100 for example:

Old: http://developer.wz2100.net/attachment/wiki/Screenshots/artillery-and-sensors.jpeg
New: http://developer.wz2100.net/attachment/wiki/Screenshots/new-terrain.jpg

The hardest part was getting the textures themselves (namely under a compatible license). Finding people to remake the in-game models is even more difficult.

Sadly things such as support for shaders is not a valid metric to compare game engines by. Adding a pair of fragment/vertex shaders to emulate the fixed-function pipeline is not difficult and has the bonus that it allows you to claim support for shaders. Hardly a useful application, however. Doing something productive and inventive with a shader is much more difficult. Integrating it into an old game even more so.

Regards, Freddie.

[joffe]

There's either two things they can do, make Myst/Broken Sword/Fallout-like games, or make Crysis/HL2-like games. Both of these options would make for amazing games, graphics or not, but they also need a real (big) team of people working hard.

Here's what I don't get, though. There are LOADS of 'mod teams' out there, many of them making truly amazing addons for commercial games that could sell as standalone games in their own right. The community is there - it just doesn't know about open source games, or isn't interested.

How come there's no shortage of people for open source projects like IP telephone servers, enterprise middleware, business intelligence, enterprise resource planning, customer relationship management (because when I see those categories I think boring, boring, boring!), but so few to help out with the games?

[some-guy]

I don't really think the engines are the problem, the problem seems that the engine makes all these nice particle effects, but the models and artwork are the problem. You can't have a nice looking game without nice models. Nexuiz seems to have mostly solved that except for the player models. Saurbraten, Alien Arena, etc. really need to do a lot of work here. OpenArena is pretty much a q3 clone, which is it's goal, so it's not really possible to complain.

[Pfanne]

why does nobody ever mention the blender game engine?

[Craig73]

So if the challenge is understanding artists - then go post a survey on DevArt or some other artist oriented site and see what they need...

Or talk to artists/designers already working on other open source projects. Perhaps it is that open source is well setup for programmer and not artists (tools, environment, workflow, community... what changes do they need to feel more at home, work more effectively, or what is needed to attract new users)

(Really - it's questions like these that I would hope open source blogs would dig into more)

[rogerdv]

Currently Im working in a 3d RPG, which I plan to develop using only open source software. The most difficult part is to get artists, as EvilGuru says. Developers usually are willing to spend time coding just for fun and learning. Artists wants to work for established projects, they want their work to be seen.

[whizse]

So if the challenge is understanding artists - then go post a survey on DevArt or some other artist oriented site and see what they need...

Or talk to artists/designers already working on other open source projects. Perhaps it is that open source is well setup for programmer and not artists (tools, environment, workflow, community... what changes do they need to feel more at home, work more effectively, or what is needed to attract new users)

(Really - it's questions like these that I would hope open source blogs would dig into more)

Do the artwork for FLOSS games really need to be done with FLOSS tools? I'm sure it would be great if it was, but that's not really a requirement as long as the source files are available in open formats?

I think the biggest problem is figuring out how to attract artists to spend their time working on art for a game where they really are in control. Instead of trying to mimic the world of proprietary games.

I mean there's no end to amount of good looking mods made, where the artists and developers really have very little control. Both in the way the mod can be used and distributed and when it comes to the life cycle of the game.

If we could only get a few of these artists to sink their teeth into FLOSS games (and starting to take licensing seriously) I'm sure we would have lots of great games.

[rogerdv]

Do the artwork for FLOSS games really need to be done with FLOSS tools? I'm sure it would be great if it was, but that's not really a requirement as long as the source files are available in open formats?


No need to. But in my case I want to prove that a game can be done without using any propietary software.

[Craig73]

Well partly this is a game design issue and partly a FOSS issue...

Are we producing games that are sufficiently unique that they will get the visibility to get (relatively) popular to attract artists and modders. I would expect modders want a popular game as well because they want their mod played by as many people as possible.

And unique games could play into the FOSS book as well... if artists don't want to be recreating assets because you upgraded the engine, and don't want to be cloning graphics from some commercial game... they certainly should be attracted to producing new and interesting games (for their portfolio as least)

And FOSS should be leveraging it's greater freedoms by separating assets from engine a bit more (even if the assets need to be compiled into the end product) to allow more re-use and re-mixing with less re-creating of assets.

So it's up to the game producers --- when creating new game play ideas, leverage FOSS by ensuring your tools and engine allow maximum re-use of graphical assets, while being sufficiently unique to interest artists so they don't feel like they are just cloning and existing game.

[energyman]

you want nice grphics? look at vegastrike.

[deanjo]

you want nice grphics? look at vegastrike.


I think Beyond the Red Line punts Vegastrike to the curb in that aspect (or pretty much any other oss game there is out there IMHO)

http://www.youtube.com/BeyondtheRedLine

[energyman]

I don't see any of the cool reflections vegastrike has.

[deanjo]

I don't see any of the cool reflections vegastrike has.

You gotta play it for that, some of those vids are pretty old.

[energyman]

the engine is not really open source. You can not sell cds containing the game. It is incompatible to all versions of the gpl.

SOFTWARE USE LIMITATIONS AND LIMITED LICENSE

General Product License. This copy of FreeSpace 2 (the "Software") is
intended solely for your personal non-commercial home entertainment use.
You may not decompile, reverse engineer, or disassemble the Software,
except as permitted by law. Interplay Entertainment Corp. and its
licensors retain all right, title and interest in the Software including
all intellectual property rights embodied therein and derivatives thereof.
The Software, including, without limitation, all code, data structures,
characters, images, sounds, text, screens, game play, derivative works and
all other elements of the Software may not be copied, resold, rented,
leased, distributed (electronically or otherwise), used on a pay-per-play,
coin-op or other for-charge basis, or for any commercial purpose. Any
permissions granted herein are provided on a temporary basis and can be
withdrawn by Interplay Productions at any time. All rights not expressly
granted are reserved.
.
.
,

so beyond the red line does not belong in this thread. Nice try.

source code licence:
Copyright (C) Volition, Inc. 1999. All rights reserved.

All source code herein is the property of Volition, Inc. You may not sell
or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based
on the source.

yeah. Well done.

DISQUALIFIED

NEXT.

[cb88]

GPL isn't everything.... development is free to continue on the engine and it is free to use and even distribute for non commercial purposes

Its free perhaps not up to RMS standards... but your free not to put your time into working on the game :-P

seriously GPL BSD whatever license trolling is what doesn't belong in this thread

[energyman]

it does, if you try to promote a game that isn't free at all. You can not put it on a distribution dvd and sent it somewhere for money, for example. What happened if ubuntu included it and canonical answered a support request? they would be deep in very muddled water. The engine is not free nor really open source.

[cb88]

just because it isn't free for commercial distribution doesn't make it evil

Your argument about inclusion in a distro is silly .... no distro is going to end up in such a mess its pretty obvious it isn't free to distribute like that its practially plastered all over thier site

[deanjo]

just because it isn't free for commercial distribution doesn't make it evil

Your argument about inclusion in a distro is silly .... no distro is going to end up in such a mess its pretty obvious it isn't free to distribute like that its practially plastered all over thier site

Bingo. Energyman is confusing free software with opensource. Two totally different things.

BTW that license is pretty old. This is the current

Volition Copyright (applies to original FreeSpace2 source code
developed and released by Volition):

"Copyright (C) Volition, Inc. 1999. All rights reserved.

All source code herein is the property of Volition, Inc. You may not
sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you
created based on the source."


Modifications by members of the FreeSpace Source Code Project are
released under whatever terms the individual authors choose, but the
above notice continues to apply to all fs2_open code.

[Irritant]

Hello, I just wanted to add some details about what we've been doing with Alien Arena, and the CRX engine.

The addition of GLSL to CRX actually began in August of 2008, which on the surface seems simple enough, but as someone stated, it's one thing to add the shader support, it's another to make it do something useful. We were able to add parallax, normal, and specular effects to the map surfaces, as well as very nice dynamic lighting effects. After that we added new per-pixel water effects. The most difficult issue was getting normal/specular mapping to work on models, which took alot of trial and error, but finally we got that working about a month or so ago. This allowed us to remove the old fixed function per-pixel effects that were just horrendously slow, and not nearly as nice looking. It also forced us to completely rewrite the way meshes were rendered, which was a good thing. We are still exploring some other ideas with using GLSL for effects, and who knows what we will come up with. We are also looking at shadow mapping, and some other options.

I know when things get mentioned about graphics, people immediately think that is all that is being focused on, and that other things are neglected, but that is definitely not the case. Even though we've done alot of renderer work over the last year, we've also managed to work heavily on gameplay, artwork, and levels. Since the release of Alien Arena 2007, nearly every model and map have been replaced, which is something I don't think I've seen any other free game do in that timeframe. I really believe we have a remarkable little team in place that is devoted to their hobby. It was said in this thread that most FOSS games are held back by their art, and that Alien Arena was among those, but I firmly believe that our art assets are of good quality. I know that can be subjective and that is fine(and yes, I *am* biased :) ).

Regarding physics, there are things floating around in our minds, though I doubt they would come in the upcoming release, may down the road, such as ragdolls, and vehicle physics. Destructible enviroments? Possibly, well it's possible now, but not in a modern or cool way, but that could be something interesting in a deathmatch game I think.

The ultimate goal for us(besides having a blast working on a game) is to create an experience that is not only fun, but rich visually and aurally. I mean, if graphics meant nothing, we'd be playing Pac Man, right? It all counts, IMO, and no aspect of the game ever gets untouched between releases. We've done a lot of nice little things too, which will become more apparent when the release comes out, to make it just a more fun and pleasing experience.

Speaking of graphics, there is always a delicate balance of looking good vs playing good, and finding the right combination is often tricky. So to that end, we've steadily been optimizing, and at the same time adding various "eye candy" features. We've also made sure that the game is very scalable, so that people with older hardware can still play the game, which is often other dicey trick. You can very easily wind up bloating an engine trying to do that, so it has to be done with great care.

As for the future, and the other various similar games like Nexuiz, Warsow, Sauerbraten, it's really great to see these games pushing ahead, each trying to outdo the other. A little friendly competition is great(though in the gaming world that is another difficult thing to maintain, unfortunately). I don't know what the impending release of id tech 4 will have as impact. Most of these games are already making use of the same type of technologies, so I doubt many will be switching over. We saw the same thing with the other Quake engines. There were dozens of tech 1 engines, then when tech 2 was released, a handful of those. Tech 3 has far fewer, so I do wonder. I think most will attempt to glean some things from tech 4 rather than make a wholesale switch.

[deanjo]

H I mean, if graphics meant nothing, we'd be playing Pac Man, right?

How dare you dis the puck! :p

[sloggerKhan]

Hello, I just wanted to add some details about what we've been doing with Alien Arena, and the CRX engine.

The addition of GLSL to CRX actually began in August of 2008, which on the surface seems simple enough, but as someone stated, it's one thing to add the shader support, it's another to make it do something useful. We were able to add parallax, normal, and specular effects to the map surfaces, as well as very nice dynamic lighting effects. After that we added new per-pixel water effects. The most difficult issue was getting normal/specular mapping to work on models, which took alot of trial and error, but finally we got that working about a month or so ago. This allowed us to remove the old fixed function per-pixel effects that were just horrendously slow, and not nearly as nice looking. It also forced us to completely rewrite the way meshes were rendered, which was a good thing. We are still exploring some other ideas with using GLSL for effects, and who knows what we will come up with. We are also looking at shadow mapping, and some other options.

I know when things get mentioned about graphics, people immediately think that is all that is being focused on, and that other things are neglected, but that is definitely not the case. Even though we've done alot of renderer work over the last year, we've also managed to work heavily on gameplay, artwork, and levels. Since the release of Alien Arena 2007, nearly every model and map have been replaced, which is something I don't think I've seen any other free game do in that timeframe. I really believe we have a remarkable little team in place that is devoted to their hobby. It was said in this thread that most FOSS games are held back by their art, and that Alien Arena was among those, but I firmly believe that our art assets are of good quality. I know that can be subjective and that is fine(and yes, I *am* biased :) ).

Regarding physics, there are things floating around in our minds, though I doubt they would come in the upcoming release, may down the road, such as ragdolls, and vehicle physics. Destructible enviroments? Possibly, well it's possible now, but not in a modern or cool way, but that could be something interesting in a deathmatch game I think.

The ultimate goal for us(besides having a blast working on a game) is to create an experience that is not only fun, but rich visually and aurally. I mean, if graphics meant nothing, we'd be playing Pac Man, right? It all counts, IMO, and no aspect of the game ever gets untouched between releases. We've done a lot of nice little things too, which will become more apparent when the release comes out, to make it just a more fun and pleasing experience.

Speaking of graphics, there is always a delicate balance of looking good vs playing good, and finding the right combination is often tricky. So to that end, we've steadily been optimizing, and at the same time adding various "eye candy" features. We've also made sure that the game is very scalable, so that people with older hardware can still play the game, which is often other dicey trick. You can very easily wind up bloating an engine trying to do that, so it has to be done with great care.

As for the future, and the other various similar games like Nexuiz, Warsow, Sauerbraten, it's really great to see these games pushing ahead, each trying to outdo the other. A little friendly competition is great(though in the gaming world that is another difficult thing to maintain, unfortunately). I don't know what the impending release of id tech 4 will have as impact. Most of these games are already making use of the same type of technologies, so I doubt many will be switching over. We saw the same thing with the other Quake engines. There were dozens of tech 1 engines, then when tech 2 was released, a handful of those. Tech 3 has far fewer, so I do wonder. I think most will attempt to glean some things from tech 4 rather than make a wholesale switch.

I agree that in my experience Alien Arena has had some of the most cohesive art and overall atmosphere and design in Open source games. The weakness I've seen with alien arena has been that the gameplay was straightforward shooter. I love playing nexuiz because the lasers, rocketpacks, and grapling hooks add something to the game even if the artwork and design aren't cohesive.

Don't know what my point is.

[Duo Maxwell]

Why is everyone so focused on graphics. I'd dump crysis any day for a game that has both great gameplay and a great story.

I don't see it so much as a problem of quality graphics, but one of gameplay and physics, so what we can render in GLSL now, the game will still be a basic @$$ FPS game which is nothing more then a gilded Quake clone, there is no story and no game play innovation.

I've already stated a few modern games anyone looking to make games for linux should play and try to emulate.

Seriously, we can't even get any good 2d games knocked out that of the same quality or addictiveness as old NES, Gameboy or SNES level.

I've also stated before why there hasn't been a play for more brand recogniticion by making some epic adventure platformers based off of the various open source mascots.

I seriously wonder if any of the game makers ever even owned a playstation or any other console... It seems like all they know is how to remake Quake/Unreal Tournament/Doom over and over again. And not even the more modern ones.

Seriously, find me someone that can draw and someone that can build a 2d rpg engine and I'm sure we could hammer out a half decent 2d RPG.

Seriously, if a single guy can pull off Cave Story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_Story get it ported to every OS and get it sold on the Wii then why the hell can't the open source community? Don't give me crap about no way to make money, toss up a donation page, source your code and charge a nominal fee for the art if you have to, if that rubs you the wrong way commons release the art for the incidentals and just keep the art for just the key character, castle and item models as well as the story.

I.E. you hold on to your hero, but you release the mart for the villagers, you keep your reocurring, key to the plot boss but release the basic critters and unoriginal minions. Keep your theme song, release the basic background music and the sound effects package.

Charge $5 for the game in full for everything, or just try and get it sold on consoles, as many as possible, if that means rewriting the code to get it on the xbox, if you've got the time, by all means.

You want things liek the Freerunner Neo, GP2X or Pandora to take off? well it's gonna need games, of all sorts.

Now back to work you slaves! Open source is supposed to be the realm of SciFi geeks and fantasy nerds, act like it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuvQt8_XFww /inspirational music

[kraftman]

GPL isn't everything.... development is free to continue on the engine and it is free to use and even distribute for non commercial purposes

Its free perhaps not up to RMS standards... but your free not to put your time into working on the game :-P

seriously GPL BSD whatever license trolling is what doesn't belong in this thread

GPL is essence of Open Source. This thread is about REAL Open Source games not about free crappy licenses.

I mean, if graphics meant nothing, we'd be playing Pac Man, right?Nope, Pacman is simple arcade game not RPG or Strategy. If only graphic counts we'd be playing 3D mark games. Every game which focuses mainly on graphics is crap. There's no game which can compete with Fallout 1 or 2.

[MaestroMaus]

Nope, Pacman is simple arcade game not RPG or Strategy. If only graphic counts we'd be playing 3D mark games. Every game which focuses mainly on graphics is crap. There's no game which can compete with Fallout 1 or 2.

He didn't say games are all about graphics. He said graphics are also important. And that is something I would personally agree with. I also remember how cool it was to play RA years ago, and that in my memory it was one of the best strategy games ever. Looking at it objectively though, it is not good to today's standards. It is nostalgia that interferes. I am not a fallout/RPG player, so I don't know how much of this is true for those games. But I guess games like Diablo III are much better then fallout 1/2 if you would compare them on a objective basis.

[Duo Maxwell]

GPL is essence of Open Source. This thread is about REAL Open Source games not about free crappy licenses.

Nope, Pacman is simple arcade game not RPG or Strategy. If only graphic counts we'd be playing 3D mark games. Every game which focuses mainly on graphics is crap. There's no game which can compete with Fallout 1 or 2.

Legend Of Zelda, Final Fantasy, Breath Of Fire, Tale Of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Metal Gear Solid, Castlevania, Megaman, Super Mario Brothers, Metroid, Stalker, King Of Fighters, Kengo: Master Of Bushido, Onimusha, Shadow Of The Colossus, Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit, Zone Of The Enders, Armored Core, Incredible Crisis, Virtua Fighter, Gran Tourismo, Panzer Dragoon, Devil May Cry, Sonic The Hedgehog I haven't even named a fraction of the great games and series out there that could be looked to for inspiration.

Hell I don't even think it'd even be possible to make some of the great arcade shooters like Time Crisis or House Of The Dead work on a comp.

It's also been posted that we should really have some DIY engines like RPG Maker, Fighter Maker, Mugen and Neverwinter Nights, if the community if dev bound then open up the actal game making to the potential players, you just have to build an engine and dev tools that let any idiot be able to slap together maps and chars like they're playing a Tony Hawk's Pro Skater title.

[crispy]

I was just wondering, since one of the main problems i keep hearing is that texture and gameplay artists are needed, why don't you find an already great mod for another game and make it compatible with the game engine in question?

[mirv]

I was just wondering, since one of the main problems i keep hearing is that texture and gameplay artists are needed, why don't you find an already great mod for another game and make it compatible with the game engine in question?

It doesn't quite work that way. A mod is typically dependent upon the underlying engine (or at least its interfaces).

I also see a lot of people making custom engines, but not the tools required to work with them. People would more willing to work with an engine, I think, if the editors were there as well. Just my opinion.

[Irritant]

I don't see it so much as a problem of quality graphics, but one of gameplay and physics, so what we can render in GLSL now, the game will still be a basic @$$ FPS game which is nothing more then a gilded Quake clone, there is no story and no game play innovation.


This is a matter of taste here, and no offense, to say there is no game play innovation or that it is a quake clone is a bit uninformed. Alien Arena has a variety of modes besides just straight deathmatch. There is Deathball, which is kind of like soccer war. There is Team Core Assault, which is a team based strategy mode that is beyond frantic. There is Cattle Prod, another team based mode that involves herding robotic cattle mutants, and there is All Out Assault which involves flying around in spaceships. There are also class-based modes, and other various mutators that alter the game play in interesting ways.

The choice to make an FPS has little to do with anything other than it has been my favorite type of game for 15 years. I grew up during the initial video game explosion(yes I'm pretty old), and trust me, I've played my fair share of nearly every type of game in existence. I've also created a good number of game types. It has nothing to do with "not knowing anything else", it just comes down to a matter of taste. I don't care for RPG's, so I didn't make one, but that isn't stopping anyone from using mine, or any other of the FPS engines to make one.

[deanjo]

GPL is essence of Open Source. This thread is about REAL Open Source games not about free crappy licenses.

Sorry opensource existed way before the GPL and most of it was public domain. In fact the Freespace engiine license if it was around, and was used in his printer drivers, it would have allowed for Stallman to fix his crappy printer drivers and possibly lose inspiration to even create the GPL.

[kraftman]

He didn't say games are all about graphics. He said graphics are also important. And that is something I would personally agree with. I also remember how cool it was to play RA years ago, and that in my memory it was one of the best strategy games ever. Looking at it objectively though, it is not good to today's standards. It is nostalgia that interferes. I am not a fallout/RPG player, so I don't know how much of this is true for those games. But I guess games like Diablo III are much better then fallout 1/2 if you would compare them on a objective basis.

Ok, thanks for pointing this, but don't even compare diablo to Fallouts, because it's stupid hack and slash :P

@Duo Maxwell

Why did you mention those games? Are they OS or free maybe? Btw. I really don't want to see console crap on PC's (except Virtua Fighter).

There are some OS games which are better than many comercial titles - Spring RTS + mods (much better gameplay then Supreme Commander IMO), UFO AI (better then UFO Aftermath etc.), Urban Terror, DangerDeep (when it'll be finished and it can't beat SH 2 yet), Vega Strike, Flight Gear.

Sorry opensource existed way before the GPL and most of it was public domain. In fact the Freespace engiine license if it was around, and was used in his printer drivers, it would have allowed for Stallman to fix his crappy printer drivers and possibly lose inspiration to even create the GPL.But it doesn't mean GPL isn't essence of Open Source. About second part - maybe, possibly, who knows...

[energyman]

Sorry opensource existed way before the GPL and most of it was public domain. In fact the Freespace engiine license if it was around, and was used in his printer drivers, it would have allowed for Stallman to fix his crappy printer drivers and possibly lose inspiration to even create the GPL.

so, so wrong.

following your logic, Crysis is open source too! You can't distribute it or do anything with it, but you can play it and if you pay a shitload of money they might let you fix a bug

....

[L33F3R]

all these good engines. But they all FPS :(. this isn't a bad thing but I haven't played a realistic racing game on linux without wine.

[Aradreth]

I think Beyond the Red Line punts Vegastrike to the curb in that aspect (or pretty much any other oss game there is out there IMHO)

http://www.youtube.com/BeyondtheRedLine
I had completely forgotten about that one...
[Pedantic ass-hole] Anyway am I the only one who thinks it's odd that the viper has contrails forming on its wing/fin tips in space? I mean that requires air and water typically not found in the middle of space... [/Pedantic ass-hole]

[cb88]

@energyman the freespace license only restricts commercial distribution so yeah it obviously can be distributed otherwise you wouldn't be able to play it... also where is the source for Crysis? pretty sure it is closed source

IMO as long as the license allow the game to be updated and worked on by new people (new blood if you will) and can be distributed freely there shouldn't be a problem discussing it here

Homeworld has a similar license to freespace...

these questions aren't new... but is a BSD license second class to GPL or the Freespace and Homeworld Lisences? the all allow the code to continue development isn't that what is important anyway? These lisences all have pros and cons ie BSD is awesome for proprietary companies to worth with it makes things easy for them with GPL being harder to deal with and the homewold/freespace licenses at the other end of the spectrum with no commercial possibility at all

That doesn't change the fact however that they are ALL Open source with varying degrees of freedom (ie GPL having a sort of reduced "protective freedom")

[Craig73]

all these good engines. But they all FPS :(. this isn't a bad thing but I haven't played a realistic racing game on linux without wine.

SuperTuxCart ;-)

[L33F3R]

good lord son i just seen a penguin and an octopus driving down the road in carts!

unfortunately thats the good world we cant live in :)

well...sober....

[deanjo]

[Pedantic ass-hole] Anyway am I the only one who thinks it's odd that the viper has contrails forming on its wing/fin tips in space? I mean that requires air and water typically not found in the middle of space... [/Pedantic ass-hole]

Vipers are like Harley Davidsons, they leak fluids even just standing still. :P

[deanjo]

so, so wrong.

following your logic, Crysis is open source too! You can't distribute it or do anything with it, but you can play it and if you pay a shitload of money they might let you fix a bug

....

Sorry but the source code for Crysis has never been released for public modification. Your really reaching for straws on that.

Being opensource is a requirement for the GPL but the GPL is not a requirement for being opensource.

[L33F3R]

Being opensource is a requirement for the GPL but the GPL is not a requirement for being opensource.

This is true. Just look at mechwarrior 2. the source was simply "shared".

[Irritant]

Well this sure got a bit off topic :) I think the point of the article is that open sourced game engines are making some advances graphically, and that they are pushing each other via a bit of friendly competition.

That the games that are currently using these engines are primarily FPS is irrelevant for the most part. The reason most of these are FPS is quite simple - the source code was released by the FPS Kings, id Software. Quite naturally the people who gravited towards and tinkered with it were going to be fans of the genre and create something that they liked. The blunt truth is, most people that create games as a hobby primarily are doing it for themselves, as artistic expression, and not for others. If people like it, that's a great bonus, but it's not often what drives them.

Games like Nexuiz, Alien Arena, Warsow, etc, are so much more than simple "Quake/UT clones". They are created by people who've been playing this type of game for years and wanted to make something that they enjoyed, and improve upon the original idea. The old tried and true "run and gun deathmatch" is only but a small portion of what these games offer. Do they have stories? No, but they aren't meant to. These are much more akin to elaborate arcade games than to anything story driven.

Citing a lack of story or RPG elements is not really a valid criticism because that just isn't what they are trying to be. One can lament the lack of RPG's or 2D side scrollers, but that again has nothing to do with the article or the games mentioned in it and only reflects on personal tastes or distastes of a specific genre.

[deanjo]

Well this sure got a bit off topic :) I think the point of the article is that open sourced game engines are making some advances graphically, and that they
-------snip----------
personal tastes or distastes of a specific genre.

I don't think anyone is knocking them for creating a FPS, it's just that there is a vast wealth of resources out there to develop other game types as well. Chances are that people are tired of YAFPS. Just take a look at World of Goo, it provided a much needed breath of fresh air and it shows with the amount of Editor Picks and rave reviews it got. FPS has really been done to death meanwhile there is a whole untapped community who would be willing to help out with top notch creative content for something like a RPG given they had good tools and a decent engine to work with.

[Duo Maxwell]

I'll knock em' for making just a simple FPS, they aren't any better really then the quake clones they claim not to be, all of those alien arena modes I've seen the same or close to them in other FPS titles, they aren't that much different, and are still reliant on the twitch factor and thus only remotely interesting to those that play them hardcore, like the guys on the top tier on Quake live. Just join an unranked or a top tier server for 5 mins, unless you're tweaking like you've just had 8 gallons of espresso you don't stand a chance against them.

None of the games have any semblance of a story or single player mode that isn't just bot practice for online matches. You don't even need much of a story, just some interesting levels laid out a little better then Sauerbraten and some interesting enemy AI.

Seriously, borrow a windows box and a copy of Rainbow 6 vegas, time shift or S.t.a.l.k.e.r. for some ideas on interesting game play, you don't even need a storyline f the AI and arenas are good. Just try a terrorist hunt on realistic in rainbow 6.

As for "console crap" I guess thats why those titles make it on to almost everyones top games of all time list? Have you played a game like Shadow Of The Colossus,

Granted, some games don't translate at all to a kb and mouse, take beat 'em ups like Devil May Cry or God Hand for instance, the control scheme works great on any console, but it is ridiculous to try and play the Devil May Cry 4 port on windows, the keyboard is an absolute kludge for it. The Same goes for the aforementioned Time Crisis and House Of The Dead, those are arcade light gun shooters, excellent ones, but a mouse with a crosshair is no substitute for a lightgun, no way no how not ever.

Most PC gamers though act so high and mighty about their games being superior over consoles, they, most of the time just aren't, a keyboard and mouse are often a square peg for a round hole and only make sense for FPS and RTS titles. Trust me, I've tried Final Fantasy 11 Online on both PC and PS2, a PS2 with a Keyboard works better then a keyboard and mouse any day, it's just faster and easier to control your movement and speed through your spell, item and equipment windows on a controller then it is with a keyboard and mouse, the keyboard is only useful for talking to other players.

Is there any chance at all of any Metal Gear Solid. Splinter Cell type infiltration style game, I.E. not an FPS, more of 3rd person, use your surroundings to your advantage to sneak past your opponents using various movement controls besides run up, own. left, right and jump? No? Then its really just the same game now isn't it? you know, like that one over there that other team is doing.

Don't tell me it's all a question of artists either. I've said it before, we are the stereotypical geeks and nerds, you know damn well you've got a stash of old scifi, fantasy and anime that you can draw basic inspiration from, it doesn't even need to make sense, just look at the Japanese games, they where most defiantly high when they came up with it, it doesn't stop it from being a fun, although weird as sh!t game.

If hat doesn't work, try survival horror, easy inspiration for that, put on a nicotine patch before you sleep, that way you'll be conscious enough of your dreams to remember them, but not such that you will be able to control them, allowing you to experience just what exactly goes on inside your head every night...

You'd think that game devs looking to beak into pro gaming that they would try to make something that would stand out from the crowd and you know, produce something not yet another uninspired FPS title.

I know, write me off as just a troll that isn't a game dev, because yeah, I couldn't code to save my life. But it doesn't make what I'm saying any less true that there is a distinct lack of creativity in linux gaming,

[krogy]

why considering those engines that hardly anybody uses before the likes of Ogre3D (http://www.ogre3d.org/gallery/) that feats tons of games and applications already developed upon?

i haven't checked the feature list of Ogre3D but, even if it's less advanced than the ones mentioned in the article, imho the main goal of a FOSS engine lies in the ease of development/content creation NOT on bleeding edge graphics!

[mirv]

What would be nice is if games used advances in graphics to advance the gameplay. I haven't seen many games really do that, but some examples that come to mind are Raven Shield (you could see an enemie's breath from cold air, which helped locate them sometimes), Doom3 (though perhaps a bit overkill, it did use the shadows to add to the atmosphere), geo-morphing from red faction, that sort of thing.
I'd like to see something like dynamically modified megatextures where you can follow footprints around, stuff like that (I'm working on it as a hobby).
Graphics improvements are nice, but interest me mostly when it adds to gameplay, rather than just eye candy.

[kraftman]

@energyman the freespace license only restricts commercial distribution so yeah it obviously can be distributed otherwise you wouldn't be able to play it... also where is the source for Crysis? pretty sure it is closed source

IMO as long as the license allow the game to be updated and worked on by new people (new blood if you will) and can be distributed freely there shouldn't be a problem discussing it here

Homeworld has a similar license to freespace...

these questions aren't new... but is a BSD license second class to GPL or the Freespace and Homeworld Lisences? the all allow the code to continue development isn't that what is important anyway? These lisences all have pros and cons ie BSD is awesome for proprietary companies to worth with it makes things easy for them with GPL being harder to deal with and the homewold/freespace licenses at the other end of the spectrum with no commercial possibility at all

Yes, BSD is second class when compared to GPL, because GPL forces people to bring upgrades to community. Thankfully GPL makes companies to deal with it harder or impossible.

That doesn't change the fact however that they are ALL Open source with varying degrees of freedom (ie GPL having a sort of reduced "protective freedom")It depends what Open Source mean for you. For me it's only FSF way. ie GPL having a sort of reduced "protective freedom"? Can you explain this? GPL is the best option to give code freedom.

@ Duo Maxwell
As for "console crap" I guess thats why those titles make it on to almost everyones top games of all time list? Have you played a game like Shadow Of The Colossus,I'm not interested in stupid 'game of all time list', because much percentage of players are children... Thanks, but I hate such games. Some people prefer more ambitious titles rather than console crap.

@Deanjo

Being opensource is a requirement for the GPL but the GPL is not a requirement for being opensource.Yes and not always. In my opinion license to be truly Open Source should allow you to modify code and pass it further. Not only look at it :> I'm talking about overall not FreeSpace or Homeworld license mentioned before. Btw. why Homeworld is still in terrible state on Linux? Isn't this, because license? One of the best games in my opinion and no one's interested in polishing it?!

[Ex-Cyber]

GPL forces people to bring upgrades to communityThis is not true. In fact, the FSF has said that such a requirement shows a "disrespect for privacy". GPL does not force anyone to distribute their changes, nor does it force public distribution; you are perfectly within your privileges under the GPL to keep a modified version to yourself (in fact, this does not require adherence to the GPL at all, since it is not distribution), or to share it with a small circle of friends or associates, or to distribute it only to paying customers. Of course, they can then distribute your modified version to others, but they are similarly not forced to give it to anyone.

I'm not interested in stupid 'game of all time list', because much percentage of players are children... Thanks, but I hate such games. Some people prefer more ambitious titles rather than console crap.As Duo said, go play Shadow of the Colossus (or Ico, or Eternal Darkness, or Killer 7, or No More Heroes...) and then come back and explain to us how much more ambitious PC games are.

[kraftman]

This is not true. In fact, the FSF has said that such a requirement shows a "disrespect for privacy". GPL does not force anyone to distribute their changes, nor does it force public distribution; you are perfectly within your privileges under the GPL to keep a modified version to yourself (in fact, this does not require adherence to the GPL at all, since it is not distribution), or to share it with a small circle of friends or associates, or to distribute it only to paying customers. Of course, they can then distribute your modified version to others, but they are similarly not forced to give it to anyone.

Of course. I meant if some company wants GPL code in their project they have to release its sources.

As Duo said, go play Shadow of the Colossus (or Ico, or Eternal Darkness, or Killer 7, or No More Heroes...) and then come back and explain to us how much more ambitious PC games are.As I mentioned before I don't like such crap. There's youtube and game portals. Go and play Fallout, Homeworld, Battle Isle 4, Heroes of Might and Magic 3&5, Neverwinter Nights 2, Dangerous Waters or read about them and explanations will be unnecessary. More ambitious means !=arcade for me.

[Dragonlord]

What would be nice is if games used advances in graphics to advance the gameplay. I haven't seen many games really do that, but some examples that come to mind are Raven Shield (you could see an enemie's breath from cold air, which helped locate them sometimes), Doom3 (though perhaps a bit overkill, it did use the shadows to add to the atmosphere), geo-morphing from red faction, that sort of thing.
I'd like to see something like dynamically modified megatextures where you can follow footprints around, stuff like that (I'm working on it as a hobby).
Graphics improvements are nice, but interest me mostly when it adds to gameplay, rather than just eye candy.
MT is overkill. Resolution is bad and memory footprint is horrible if you need more than one active camera. Foot steps is anyways a job for decals. You could update an MT at runtime but you can't do any map of decent size with it and constantly frobbing memory while still looking pixelated doesn't really help in the end. It's nice for learning purpose but hardly a solution for the future of game design.

And yeah... graphics advance in FOSS games. They better would advance on the game design part and editing tools since if people want graphics they take an AAA engine ( if they can pony up the money ). Those engines can only boast with graphics but game design wise it's nothing particular and the pipeline is crap to begin with.

[Irritant]

Forget about using commercial engines. People making FOSS games are generally doing this as a hobbby, and aren't going to spend half a million dollars(or even 5000 dollars) to use a AAA, AA, or A engine.

As I said before, FOSS game creation is most often a hobby, and a labor of love. If I had half a million to blow on licensing the UT3 engine, I wouldn't do it. Where would the fun for ME be in that?

[Dragonlord]

Having a badly designed game engine is not funny at all. This is what keeps Linux games back right now since those who could do something great are blocked by the existing engines right now. Linux gaming won't pick off using one-shot FPS-aligned engines as we have right now. It simply can't because FPS games are just a tiny part of all possible games. And with inflexible engines everybody has to reinvent the wheel and as a hobby most of the capable people don't have the time for that.

[Irritant]

Having a badly designed game engine is not funny at all. This is what keeps Linux games back right now since those who could do something great are blocked by the existing engines right now. Linux gaming won't pick off using one-shot FPS-aligned engines as we have right now. It simply can't because FPS games are just a tiny part of all possible games. And with inflexible engines everybody has to reinvent the wheel and as a hobby most of the capable people don't have the time for that.

I'm not sure if you understood me. I didn't say "funny" as in humorous, I said "fun" as in it gives me pleasure to work on it. I would also request that you cease with the insulting dialog(as in referring to something as being "badly designed"). I won't continue any discussion here if the insults continue, and I think it's in the best interest of the non-developers to show a little courtesy when they are requesting of the developers.

These engines are not nearly as inflexible as you think. I've seen a variety of game types created from them that are not FPS.

[0.1.]

FOSS games need artists, but they would need them less if these projects were using free license for their artworks, not only for their engine.
There are a few repositories with open assets : some are public domain, some others BSD, GPL, ... and Creative Commons by & by-sa.
Keeping in mind the more your license is restrictive, the less it will be compatible with existing projects, this is why some Creative Commons clauses (the ones which make it non-free) can be annoying.
If artists are planning to help FOSS gaming community, they should seriously consider adopting a very free license, see no license at all (i.e: public domain). Or eventually release work under several licenses.

Freegamedev already did some quite good job for that : http://wiki.freegamedev.net/index.php/Free_3D_and_2D_art_and_audio_resources

My 2 cents.

[cb88]

Actually Homeworld is being ported to the Pandora at the moment ... so developemt is hardly halted and you aren't stopped from fixing proglems with it

[rogerdv]

FOSS games need artists, but they would need them less if these projects were using free license for their artworks, not only for their engine.



We will always need artists. Using free assets isnt a choice, first because each game design is almost unique, perhaps I handle switching items/clothes in a different way that Scourge, for example. Second, all open source games would look the same. A free assests repo sometimes not even covers the models required for testing in the initial game phase. I dont even have a decent looking trees because the ones available doesnt export properly to Ogre. I just have 2 animated models, both from Ogre demos, because no humanoids properly textured and animated are available for free.

[Dragonlord]

I'm not sure if you understood me. I didn't say "funny" as in humorous, I said "fun" as in it gives me pleasure to work on it. I would also request that you cease with the insulting dialog(as in referring to something as being "badly designed"). I won't continue any discussion here if the insults continue, and I think it's in the best interest of the non-developers to show a little courtesy when they are requesting of the developers.

These engines are not nearly as inflexible as you think. I've seen a variety of game types created from them that are not FPS.
If criticizing sub-par design and bugs in software is considered "insulting" then we should all go back using Windows and living in stagnation and bugs hell. Seriously get your head out of your ass there. More I don't have to say to this crap post of yours.

[kraftman]

Forget about using commercial engines. People making FOSS games are generally doing this as a hobbby, and aren't going to spend half a million dollars(or even 5000 dollars) to use a AAA, AA, or A engine.

As I said before, FOSS game creation is most often a hobby, and a labor of love. If I had half a million to blow on licensing the UT3 engine, I wouldn't do it. Where would the fun for ME be in that?

Hobby, that's a point. I don't see big commercial success for Open Source games (except FlightGear and Danger from the Deep, because they'll be probably much more realistic then commercial simulators in the future), but it doesn't mean they're worse or something like that. They aim at old-school gamers rather then at market needs where graphics and simplicity usually counts the most. There's lack of really innovative and ambitious (aka strategy, simulator, cRPG; especially when comes to consoles...) games today and maybe that's a chance for OS titles which can bring more demanding experience and get some more interest.

P.S. Some people think quality of a game is measured by number of players... More people may prefer Looney Tunes music over Mozart and does it mean LT music is better? I prefer more ambitious games and more ambitious films like Pulp Fiction over Too Mad Too Stupid. If someone still doesn't know how much more ambitious some PC games are he must be an idiot.

[Irritant]

If criticizing sub-par design and bugs in software is considered "insulting" then we should all go back using Windows and living in stagnation and bugs hell. Seriously get your head out of your ass there. More I don't have to say to this crap post of yours.

Nobody is saying you can't criticize. Criticism is what allows developers myself to improve their products. Of course there is also the social grace and tact that allows such criticism to be constructive rather than destructive.

So if there are bugs that you are finding, or design flaws, it would be helpful to developers to know specifically what you need in order to develop your game on the engine. Just saying "I'm sick of FPS and this engine is "inflexible"" is useless to a developer.

[Dragonlord]

Nobody is saying you can't criticize. Criticism is what allows developers myself to improve their products. Of course there is also the social grace and tact that allows such criticism to be constructive rather than destructive.

So if there are bugs that you are finding, or design flaws, it would be helpful to developers to know specifically what you need in order to develop your game on the engine. Just saying "I'm sick of FPS and this engine is "inflexible"" is useless to a developer.
It's not about bugs. Bugs can be fixed. It's about the design itself. The way of making games has changed dramatically. The complexity of game projects has increased a lot. The old aged black-box design of game engines is not flexible enough anymore to cope with upcoming projects. Furthermore I know a lot of people who have creative ideas but the existing engines have lacking work pipelines and are cumbersome to use yet limited in what you can do without totally dismantling the engine and coding the hell out of it. I checked out all engines around when I got to my project including AAA engines but none could handle the requirements needed. Granted some engines came a long way and are no more that much of a buggy hell as they used to be back then but if I see people churn out stuff like "out engine is the best because it has the best graphics!" then I'm getting sick. To get game development on Linux kicking you need more than what the FOSS engines today can provide. You need a game engine which is usable for serious game projects which goes beyond the FPS engine we have right now. Many ask why people don't use FOSS engines more. The answer is simple: the existing ones are simply not ready for prime time yet.

[Irritant]

It's not about bugs. Bugs can be fixed. It's about the design itself. The way of making games has changed dramatically. The complexity of game projects has increased a lot. The old aged black-box design of game engines is not flexible enough anymore to cope with upcoming projects. Furthermore I know a lot of people who have creative ideas but the existing engines have lacking work pipelines and are cumbersome to use yet limited in what you can do without totally dismantling the engine and coding the hell out of it. I checked out all engines around when I got to my project including AAA engines but none could handle the requirements needed. Granted some engines came a long way and are no more that much of a buggy hell as they used to be back then but if I see people churn out stuff like "out engine is the best because it has the best graphics!" then I'm getting sick. To get game development on Linux kicking you need more than what the FOSS engines today can provide. You need a game engine which is usable for serious game projects which goes beyond the FPS engine we have right now. Many ask why people don't use FOSS engines more. The answer is simple: the existing ones are simply not ready for prime time yet.

This is still fairly vague. What are your specific requirements needed in an engine?

[Snickersnack]

I know, write me off as just a troll that isn't a game dev, because yeah, I couldn't code to save my life. But it doesn't make what I'm saying any less true that there is a distinct lack of creativity in linux gaming,

So, in order to be more creative, Linux game devs should clone tired old console games instead of YAFPS? :confused:

Are you offended by the proliferation of Rogue-likes?

[Dragonlord]

@Irritant:
platform independent, runtime modular ( so not compile time modular ), huge world support, physics simulation ( various types ), good graphics rendering ( full multilayer transparency, mirroring, refraction/reflection, dynamic lighting/shadowing ), extensible graphics ( adding new abilities without changing the engine ), holed terrains, equally capable of indoor/outdoor, unrestricted bone weighted mesh deformation, animation system capable of handling parametric/procedural animations, Blender3D support for modeling/terrain/animation, fully scalable ( from high-end down to low-end ), multi-camera rendering, multi-world rendering, dynamic textures ( runtime generated ), dynamic sound/music, streamed music, 3D audio, using a typed scripting language, persistency usable for large scale world, streamed loading of the world, model/animation/physics in separate files, no pre-compilation steps, accurate world editor ( ingame rendering ), scalable network support able of both p2p/client-server

and especially

no compile time mess engine so no need to dismantle the engine to get new features done.

I didn't write down all points there are as this is just straight out of my head but it contains some important points.

[deanjo]

@Irritant:
platform independent, runtime modular ( so not compile time modular ), huge world support, physics simulation ( various types ), good graphics rendering ( full multilayer transparency, mirroring, refraction/reflection, dynamic lighting/shadowing ), extensible graphics ( adding new abilities without changing the engine ), holed terrains, equally capable of indoor/outdoor, unrestricted bone weighted mesh deformation, animation system capable of handling parametric/procedural animations, Blender3D support for modeling/terrain/animation, fully scalable ( from high-end down to low-end ), multi-camera rendering, multi-world rendering, dynamic textures ( runtime generated ), dynamic sound/music, streamed music, 3D audio, using a typed scripting language, persistency usable for large scale world, streamed loading of the world, model/animation/physics in separate files, no pre-compilation steps, accurate world editor ( ingame rendering ), scalable network support able of both p2p/client-server


You forgot hilarious easter eggs.

[deanjo]

Yes, BSD is second class when compared to GPL, because GPL forces people to bring upgrades to community. Thankfully GPL makes companies to deal with it harder or impossible.

So much for freedom when you have impassible barriers. It still has restrictions on what you can and cannot use with it. If GPL was more loose I have no doubt you would see great innovations like dtrace and zfs already in the kernel for example.


GPL is the best option to give code freedom.

In your opinion. It barriers true freedom of what one can contribute on what terms they want. Public domain release is required for that.


Yes and not always. In my opinion license to be truly Open Source should allow you to modify code and pass it further. Not only look at it :> I'm talking about overall not FreeSpace or Homeworld license mentioned before. Btw. why Homeworld is still in terrible state on Linux? Isn't this, because license? One of the best games in my opinion and no one's interested in polishing it?!The freespace license does not prohibit you in any way of making your code contributions free as you see fit.

[L33F3R]

@Irritant:
platform independent, runtime modular ( so not compile time modular ), huge world support, physics simulation ( various types ), good graphics rendering ( full multilayer transparency, mirroring, refraction/reflection, dynamic lighting/shadowing ), extensible graphics ( adding new abilities without changing the engine ), holed terrains, equally capable of indoor/outdoor, unrestricted bone weighted mesh deformation, animation system capable of handling parametric/procedural animations, Blender3D support for modeling/terrain/animation, fully scalable ( from high-end down to low-end ), multi-camera rendering, multi-world rendering, dynamic textures ( runtime generated ), dynamic sound/music, streamed music, 3D audio, using a typed scripting language, persistency usable for large scale world, streamed loading of the world, model/animation/physics in separate files, no pre-compilation steps, accurate world editor ( ingame rendering ), scalable network support able of both p2p/client-server


serious list :eek:

I have always been a huge fan of irrlicht myself due to its opengl3 support and ease of use. But then again im primarily a csg level designer so i urge you to note my bias. I know physx is supported to an extent on linux but as for open source there is plenty of physics systems. And i know for a fact raknet is nearly the best and is used by sony. Several sound systems can handle 3d audio just fine and im sure python or lua support would need to be added. It honestly looks like alot of work though. Which is one of the reasons why we need to rely on open source fps games to base our creations.

From an artwork perspective adding content into open source engines like ogre and irrlicht (which keep in mind are only rendering engines by themselves) is just as easy as say quake 3.

But for now we are stuck with FPS titles based on ID engines and cube.

If said licenses on open source engines happened to support commercial development we would have more linux games. I know the art camp likes commercializing their work more then the programming camp. At the end of the day the GPL is a very social license that protects his/her work from being sold (which is a damn good reason in my opinion).

Amen :)

[numasan]

@Dragonlord
And what type of game do you want with this über engine? Will the engines features matter if it's YAFPS? Do you have an idea for a highly innovative game and the skills to make it? Can you encourage others to make it? (judging by your other replies, I'd say no...)

I think it is wonderful that so many FLOSS games exist, and that the engine/game developers have fun doing it. Creating a modern game is a huge task, so in that regard FLOSS games will always look/play like something a few years behind times, but as stated by others: Gameplay first.

I am not a developer/programmer, and have no idea how to make useful and beautiful GLSL shaders, but I am a graphic artist (currently only compositing with a grain of 3D). I want to contribute with graphics, but there are some points:
1) Creating content for a modern looking game, never mind a "next-gen" type game, is impossible to do with only a handful of artists working in their spare time (MOD artists reuse a lot of art assets from the main game). The content needs to be equal in quality, so it's better to have a game look bland overall, than having a few models of high quality among many others of poorer quality. This requires a whole lot of planning (artists sticking to a defined concept) and a lot of hard work (equal quality of all content). No use of a FLOSS AAA-level engine if this point is not in place.
2) If I'm going to dedicate a portion of my free time to a FLOSS game project, it MUST be a game that I enjoy immensely, that I want to see live up to it's potential, and that I can have FUN while creating content. Almost all FLOSS games could use better graphics, but not all captures me enough to help out. It also doesn't help that I don't game that much anymore as I used to...
3) The workflow must also be considered, getting content in the engine easily, create ingame effects without relying mostly on developers, maybe some sort of visual GLSL creation tool, etc.

I agree with many that the visual representation of a game is very important today, and I would love to see a modern FLOSS game rival, say, HL2. I'm just afraid it is too much to expect, and I don't think the majority of Windows gamers will even glance at open source games on Linux. It is much more important to get studios like Blizzard and Valve on board, than to convince people to play our free, open games, made with great engines and the best art we can possibly create. Instead of competing with commercial games, we should create fun, quirky games with a unique art style, manageable by 1 or 2 artists in average. I think that is already what is happening.

[L33F3R]

I agree with many that the visual representation of a game is very important today, and I would love to see a modern FLOSS game rival, say, HL2. I'm just afraid it is too much to expect, and I don't think the majority of Windows gamers will even glance at open source games on Linux. It is much more important to get studios like Blizzard and Valve on board, than to convince people to play our free, open games, made with great engines and the best art we can possibly create. Instead of competing with commercial games, we should create fun, quirky games with a unique art style, manageable by 1 or 2 artists in average. I think that is already what is happening.

Its very important to recognize the little guys who dedicate there time for making little things for us to enjoy. They deserve alot more credit then they get.

However when it comes to larger projects its important to remember that rome wasnt built in a day and it wasnt built by a man and his wife. When you beat 1 of these games look at the credits, they go on for a LOOOONG time. It took 50 people to port GTA 4 to windows and it was an awful port.

I think a major project COULD be done but would take a large collective of people and some strong leadership. However i might add that the linux community is good with both of these things and even has some talent to show it off.

[deanjo]

I think a major project COULD be done but would take a large collective of people and some strong leadership. However i might add that the linux community is good with both of these things and even has some talent to show it off.

I'd be willing to bet that most of the development on these games done by the linux community is pretty lopsided to linux port meanwhile assets are primarily done using closed sourced solutions on other OS's. Even projects such as Big Buck relied on many closed apps (especially when it comes to audio).

[L33F3R]

ahhhh yes thats key. The assets themselves created in closed source apps like 3ds max and even programming in visual studio.

[numasan]

I'd be willing to bet that most of the development on these games done by the linux community is pretty lopsided to linux port meanwhile assets are primarily done using closed sourced solutions on other OS's. Even projects such as Big Buck relied on many closed apps (especially when it comes to audio).

BBB relied mostly on open source apps. Only audio was done with closed source. There is no reason why art assets can't be done purely in OSS, except personal preference.

[deanjo]

BBB relied mostly on open source apps. Only audio was done with closed source. There is no reason why art assets can't be done purely in OSS, except personal preference.

I realize that BBB audio was done with closed source (thus why I mentioned it). Ironically if they wanted to deal with the pain it could have been done as well with OSS apps.

[numasan]

Sorry, but you wrote that BBB "relied on many closed apps", when really only the audio part was done with closed apps (because it was handled outside of the production). The point being that all graphics was made with open tools, as was the pipeline. People working on open source games are not dependant on a closed toolchain. Artists wanting to contribute are not limited to commercial tools on a specific platform. That some choose to use a cracked 3dsmax, well...

[kraftman]

So much for freedom when you have impassible barriers. It still has restrictions on what you can and cannot use with it. If GPL was more loose I have no doubt you would see great innovations like dtrace and zfs already in the kernel for example.

Sorry Deanjo, but it's total bullshit. GPL has less barriers then BSD, because you can take BSD code into Linux kernel, but you can't take Linux code into BSD kernel etc. You're talking about giving freedom to companies like apple, but GPL says - Kiss my ass. Btw. stop this idiotic dodging please.There are serious reasons why GPL doesn't allow to take ZFS or DTrace into the kernel.
In your opinion. It barriers true freedom of what one can contribute on what terms they want. Public domain release is required for that.In your opinion it barriers true freedom, but I'm talking about code freedom not about freedom to doing what you want with it (it's lawlessness or something like this)

The freespace license does not prohibit you in any way of making your code contributions free as you see fit.That's why I mentioned I'm talking about overall not about FreeSpace or Homeworld.

[Duo Maxwell]

So, in order to be more creative, Linux game devs should clone tired old console games instead of YAFPS? :confused:

Are you offended by the proliferation of Rogue-likes?

Eh, I was just tossing up examples of games that have shown to be still wildly popular even in their modern iterations while half asleep, chronic insomnia will do that to your mind. Go look up sales charts for top selling games on the consoles and pc for the last 5 years. You telling me we can't do ANY of that? We ren't just a few years behind, we're more like at least a decade behind in terms of overall capability.

As for the art assets, try asking the Mac users, many of them have experience with it, especially with the music end since every Mac in recen years has come with a great little app called Garage Band which is built specifically to let any idiot make music. It's pretty versitile and many of the people using it are simply giving away their tracks, it wouldn't be hard to you know, just ask them if they could license some songs nd sound effects in a compatible license to you.

As for making money, I stand by that if its your hobby to do this you should still try and milk it, you can even do it while staying true to the GPL. But you first have to make something that omeone would actually pay money for. Theres no law saying that if you make an open source game that you automatically have to make 0 dollars in the process. There is however a stipulation of you having to produce something of at least moderatly interesting quality before you can get other people to open their wallets.

Go ahead, try and find a reason why we can't get everything required for a decent game that you could actually sell, I say Phoronix should start organizing it, maybe even go and ask around the other linux gaming sites about it, hell, even the Mac ones, they're almost as hard up for games as we are so I'm sure you'll get some help from them.

Call it "Phoronix And The Quest For The $5 Game".


Its very important to recognize the little guys who dedicate there time for making little things for us to enjoy. They deserve alot more credit then they get.

However when it comes to larger projects its important to remember that rome wasnt built in a day and it wasnt built by a man and his wife. When you beat 1 of these games look at the credits, they go on for a LOOOONG time. It took 50 people to port GTA 4 to windows and it was an awful port.

I think a major project COULD be done but would take a large collective of people and some strong leadership. However i might add that the linux community is good with both of these things and even has some talent to show it off.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the issue with the GTA4 port mainly one of processing power? I remember reading that it just seemed to be a limitation of the x86 cpu not being able to hold up the weight of the massive city engines and all the stuff the game has going at once that the console CPUs where able to handle much better due to their design. As I remember the players usig qads didn't get the slowdowns much if at all due to having more CPU grunt to throw at the engine.


I'm not sure if you understood me. I didn't say "funny" as in humorous, I said "fun" as in it gives me pleasure to work on it. I would also request that you cease with the insulting dialog(as in referring to something as being "badly designed"). I won't continue any discussion here if the insults continue, and I think it's in the best interest of the non-developers to show a little courtesy when they are requesting of the developers.

These engines are not nearly as inflexible as you think. I've seen a variety of game types created from them that are not FPS.

Insulting? You have yet to see insulting, besides if you're as old school as you claim then theres nothing anyone could be able to say to you on the "bad ole' internets" that could insult you. Or are you really that fragile as to have your e-p3|\|0® damaged so easily? I'd have figured an old salt of the internet would be made of tougher stuff then that...

[kraftman]

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the issue with the GTA4 port mainly one of processing power? I remember reading that it just seemed to be a limitation of the x86 cpu not being able to hold up the weight of the massive city engines and all the stuff the game has going at once that the console CPUs where able to handle much better due to their design. As I remember the players usig qads didn't get the slowdowns much if at all due to having more CPU grunt to throw at the engine.

It's possible. Some time ago when new console arrived it was faster then PCs. Right now you can probably have PC which is much faster then the fastest console. The point is many PC owners doesn't have high end quad core PCs and maybe that's why someone mentioned about lack of processing power. I bet if GTA4 will be designed primary for PCs porting it to consoles will be a problem too.


It's really difficult to make a game which can compete with commercial titles. It has to be polished in every aspect, it has to be innovative and very playable. Many commercial titles which are developed for years and have big budgets are disappointing sometimes. Game reviewers are merciless ;)

[Duo Maxwell]

Well it's not that it was made for a console, but that it's a much different CPU design, if you are writing software to take advantage of the Cell CPU it's going to take a bit of work to get it working on an i7, and the performance difference between the 2 is quite large depending on what tasks you are giving the cpu, x86 CPUs being designed for general purpose, while the Cell was designed for IBM's high end servers, the binned ones are sold off to Sony for the PS3. Really no different from what AMD does with their current cpus, they 're only making the quads and sending the ones with dud cores to be triple, dual or single core cpus depending on how many cores work properly.

I'd have tu guess that the difference between the current console CPUs and the current x86 CPUs is even larger now then the difference between the old PowerPC CPUs that Apple used to use.

[Dragonlord]

@Dragonlord
And what type of game do you want with this über engine?
Various concepts that are not done like that often. I'm trying something different here. And no it's not an FPS and it's not about fast paced action. I know what I'm doing.
Will the engines features matter if it's YAFPS?
Yes, tremendously even. An FPS engine can't do what I want to do without major recoding because FPS is about shooting, my game is about interaction.
Do you have an idea for a highly innovative game and the skills to make it?
Yes I do.
Can you encourage others to make it?
Yes I can. But to go beyond the core team it takes some more work on the engine side. FOSS people are ( and here I'm honest and blunt ) in general very unflexible. If a solution is not tried already they are hard to jump on and especially keep focused. So the project is separated into well defined steps and recruiting is not part of the current one.

I think it is wonderful that so many FLOSS games exist, and that the engine/game developers have fun doing it. Creating a modern game is a huge task, so in that regard FLOSS games will always look/play like something a few years behind times, but as stated by others: Gameplay first.
The problem are the engines themselves. They are a barrier preventing people with ideas to do them. Only a few are skilled enough coders to hack deep into existing engines to bend them to do what they want them to do. The others are simply blocked off and neglected. If they could work with an engine that supports them by providing high quality features without paying huge bucks for them and obtaining a good work pipeline they could go on working on their ideas... working on gameplay. If the engine is a hindrance then you need to work most of the time on the technical part and not the gameplay part which is why the gameplay is often just YAFPS since that requires little planing, no design documents and no need to stray of shot-and-run gameplay. If there would be a general purpose game engine of good quality more varied games would emerge and Linux would get the recognition it needs. Since now Linux is only perceived as a wannabe gaming OS and one reason are the projects in the FOSS domain nowadays.

1) Creating content for a modern looking game, never mind a "next-gen" type game, is impossible to do with only a handful of artists working in their spare time (MOD artists reuse a lot of art assets from the main game).
It's not impossible and has been done a couple of times already. Furthermore if the engine provides smart design the workload can be lessened. It's only impossible if you don't want to.
2) If I'm going to dedicate a portion of my free time to a FLOSS game project, it MUST be a game that I enjoy immensely, that I want to see live up to it's potential, and that I can have FUN while creating content. Almost all FLOSS games could use better graphics, but not all captures me enough to help out. It also doesn't help that I don't game that much anymore as I used to...
That's the problem with the existing engines. This is why we need a good and new general type engine which does provide a simple, concise and powerful work pipeline so that creating games for artists is no more a pain as it is today but fun. Then people are also going to be more willing to help. After all for many Linux stands for "cumbersome" and the current engines do no effort to counter this prejudice.
3) The workflow must also be considered, getting content in the engine easily, create ingame effects without relying mostly on developers, maybe some sort of visual GLSL creation tool, etc.
As mentioned above: it requires an engine with a proper design made with artists in mind and not just programmers. Again the current solutions are programmers oriented and hardly usable for artists.

I agree with many that the visual representation of a game is very important today, and I would love to see a modern FLOSS game rival, say, HL2. I'm just afraid it is too much to expect, and I don't think the majority of Windows gamers will even glance at open source games on Linux. It is much more important to get studios like Blizzard and Valve on board, than to convince people to play our free, open games, made with great engines and the best art we can possibly create. Instead of competing with commercial games, we should create fun, quirky games with a unique art style, manageable by 1 or 2 artists in average. I think that is already what is happening.
It's not. The mentioned engine is already in work. There will always be people who think outside the box and look for solutions instead of fighting symptoms.

[Dragonlord]

You forgot hilarious easter eggs.
Definitely. Easter eggs for the win :D

[Irritant]

@Dragonlord

"An FPS engine can't do what I want to do without major recoding because FPS is about shooting, my game is about interaction."

From the surface, you're talking more about game code than engine code.

Regardless, there is no way to make a new, original game without codework.

[Irritant]

Insulting? You have yet to see insulting, besides if you're as old school as you claim then theres nothing anyone could be able to say to you on the "bad ole' internets" that could insult you. Or are you really that fragile as to have your e-p3|\|0® damaged so easily? I'd have figured an old salt of the internet would be made of tougher stuff then that...

It's not about hurting my feelings, you miss the point, which is, acting like a petulant child is not going to get you what you want. If you want something to be done by someone(or some group), throwing derogatory remarks at them or their work isn't going to accomplish it.

Right now I see alot of temper tantrums being thrown because the current crop of games doesn't meet what they consider to be "good". Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one, doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong. If you really want to make a difference in the Linux gaming world, then follow this simple rule: Less complaining, more action. If you don't have the talent or ability to take action, then at least be nice to those who do :)

[L33F3R]

Go ahead, try and find a reason why we can't get everything required for a decent game that you could actually sell, I say Phoronix should start organizing it, maybe even go and ask around the other linux gaming sites about it, hell, even the Mac ones, they're almost as hard up for games as we are so I'm sure you'll get some help from them.

Call it "Phoronix And The Quest For The $5 Game".


I think its perfectly viable aswell. Although you need to unite 2 camps of people that have different motives. Not everyone is going to use linux all the time or use open source software. Indoors in particular are usually done in a level editor because they are painstakingly slow to make in modeling programs. Problem with linux? all you have is radiant. Blender is very powerful but it took me a very long time to wrap my head around it. It is also the only decent solution for linux modeling becides maya which sucks for polygon modeling and softimage which sucks period.

But i can see the promise in a customized engine alone as a phoronix benchmarking tool. You would be able to control different variables like shaders, polygons and so on. Because all of these open source games we have out are ID based they carry with them a certain bias.

[Dragonlord]

It's not about hurting my feelings, you miss the point, which is, acting like a petulant child is not going to get you what you want. If you want something to be done by someone(or some group), throwing derogatory remarks at them or their work isn't going to accomplish it.

Right now I see alot of temper tantrums being thrown because the current crop of games doesn't meet what they consider to be "good". Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one, doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong. If you really want to make a difference in the Linux gaming world, then follow this simple rule: Less complaining, more action. If you don't have the talent or ability to take action, then at least be nice to those who do :)
In fact you are the one not getting anything. You insult all the time somebody WHO DOES SOMETHING! So if you still want to continue labeling me a whining fart who does nothing do your math first. And with this I won't be answering to you anymore. If you want to be an asshole so be it but don't expect anything from those doing something.

Period.

[Irritant]

In fact you are the one not getting anything. You insult all the time somebody WHO DOES SOMETHING! So if you still want to continue labeling me a whining fart who does nothing do your math first. And with this I won't be answering to you anymore. If you want to be an asshole so be it but don't expect anything from those doing something.

Period.

So asking people to be courteous is insulting? Alright then. Listen, I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I do feel that a couple people here need some perspective/reality check.

Now the next question isn't meant to be offensive, but is English your first language? I only ask because it seems you've misconstrued some thing's I have said, as if there may have been a language barrier. Forgive me if this offends you, I just want to make sure that is or is not the case when I reply.

So you've established that you are someone who "does something". I'm just curious, what projects are you working on, or released? I'd be interested in following their progress. You seem to have some ambitious ideas and goals, and if they are what you claim, then it would be something I would be interested in paying attention to.

Thanks -

[Svartalf]

So asking people to be courteous is insulting? Alright then. Listen, I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I do feel that a couple people here need some perspective/reality check.

Yourself included, I'm afraid.

You didn't "ask someone to be courteous". You took a hostile position back about 3 or so screens back worth of commentary- and have been escalating the commentary with Dragonlord. Perhaps some of his word choices are not the best in the world, but in the end, he DOES have something of a valid point.

"Badly designed" isn't offensive unless someone's trying to be defensive about something. Fact is, most of the FPS' are badly designed. Seriously. Regardless of whether the stuff you're working on is or isn't and I believe that is what Dragonlord's referring to. Moreover, most of the FPS' that we have in the FOSS space don't have decent asset toolchains to produce asset content FOR the engine in the first place. That's part of "badly designed", if you want the pro's take on things there. :D


Now the next question isn't meant to be offensive, but is English your first language?


You lose right there. If you're asking that you're being offensive- out of the gate.


I only ask because it seems you've misconstrued some thing's I have said, as if there may have been a language barrier. Forgive me if this offends you, I just want to make sure that is or is not the case when I reply.


As have you misconstrued things. You might want to cool your jets there a bit, friend. Your handle is becoming entirely to apt for words right at the moment.


So you've established that you are someone who "does something". I'm just curious, what projects are you working on, or released? I'd be interested in following their progress. You seem to have some ambitious ideas and goals, and if they are what you claim, then it would be something I would be interested in paying attention to.

How about Googling for it, hm? It's not at all hard for someone to find his stuff. Try "Dragonlord" coupled with "game engine" and try out the first link...you'll get better results than resorting to shouting matches. ;)

And, as someone else who's "doing something", it does get a bit old with all the armchair people griping about this and that and contributing little to the discussion or efforts. I can see where Dragonlord might get a bit snippy at times. I know I do from time to time because of it. :D

[Irritant]

@Svaltalf -

I read back on all of my posts and, I was certainly not being "hostile". I simply requested for a couple of posters to be more polite and courteous after some destructively critical remarks directed towards FOSS FPS games. I didn't take them to be directed at my work specifically, so it wasn't personal. I just don't like to see this type of discourse when discussing how to improve things. I simply wanted to see some things toned down a bit, not trying to start a flame war.

So "I lose"? I didn't realize I was in a contest. I asked him if English was his first language because on a couple of occasions it seemed as if he completely misunderstood something, and because well, English isn't the first language of alot of people. How in the world is asking that offensive? Alot of times a language barrier can cause misunderstandings. I have no idea where DragonLord is originally from.

I am not going to continue to argue about whether or not FOSS FPS games are badly designed or not, but I will mention at least in the case of the engine I personally work on, every asset for the engine can be created with readily available programs(radiant, Blender, and Gimp). With those three programs, and a sound editor of choice, you can make anything the engine needs.

As for shouting matches, I have not once shouted in this forum. So please refrain from including me as a participant in them.

[L33F3R]

i hope the flames die down. Irritant do you have examples of stuff you have worked on?

[Irritant]

i hope the flames die down. Irritant do you have examples of stuff you have worked on?

Me too, I honestly was not trying to fan them, just trying to get a perspective on why a few people here seemed so angry about FPS gaming engines.

I am the lead developer of Alien Arena http://red.planetarena.org

I looked at Dragonlord's project, and it looks like there is a great start, which makes it all that much more confusing as to why this argument is taking place. He seems to have the ability to make the kind of engine he wants, so there is no need to lament others for not doing so.

Our engine, much like many other engines is being developed for a specific game, and we are a very small team of four, so we don't have the resources/time to worry about making things easier for others to use our engine. As it stands, I've already posted that the only tools you need to work with it are Blender, Gimp, Radiant, and a sound editor. So there isn't really a need for us to create new tools when there are already free ones in place to use(though we did make a radiant of our own for the game). Other than basic physics, most of the flexiblity would come from the game code(meaning you can really make it do most anything). As I stated before, there have been a number of interesting projects created from id Tech that isn't FPS(UFO AI for example).

[L33F3R]

Ahhhh well i must say i have had a good wob of fun playing your game :).

Radiants strengths are also its greatest weakness. It is very capable but to the degree that it has a terrible learning curve compared to say unreal or hammer. Same goes for blender unfortunately enough :(. Radiant has also branched off a bit. You get qe,gtk,net,dark,zero radiants to name a few and they all do basically the same damn thing.

[Irritant]

Ahhhh well i must say i have had a good wob of fun playing your game :).

Radiants strengths are also its greatest weakness. It is very capable but to the degree that it has a terrible learning curve compared to say unreal or hammer. Same goes for blender unfortunately enough :(. Radiant has also branched off a bit. You get qe,gtk,net,dark,zero radiants to name a few and they all do basically the same damn thing.

Yeah I couldn't agree more. I was a longtime Worldcraft user, and when I switched over to Radiant, it took quite some time to be productive again. Blender is still something I never quite get used to, at least in the animation dept. It's very difficult IMO, the interface is very confusing. Still Blender is a fine program, I really liked it once I got the hang of it.

[Svartalf]

Me too, I honestly was not trying to fan them, just trying to get a perspective on why a few people here seemed so angry about FPS gaming engines.

Because the bulk of them are derivative things that're largely lame. :D


I am the lead developer of Alien Arena http://red.planetarena.org


Heh... Nice game. I've enjoyed playing it in the past with other people.


I looked at Dragonlord's project, and it looks like there is a great start, which makes it all that much more confusing as to why this argument is taking place. He seems to have the ability to make the kind of engine he wants, so there is no need to lament others for not doing so.

It's because many, if not most, of the FOSS FPS game making crowd aren't really innovative. You're not one of them, and complaints about "yet another FOSS FPS" are not reflective of YOUR endeavors- and shouldn't be taken that way.

[Svartalf]

As I stated before, there have been a number of interesting projects created from id Tech that isn't FPS(UFO AI for example).

Oh, thought I'd address this remark...

Yes, there's interesting non-FPS projects using it, but it's not quite the same thing as using an engine purpose-built for more than FPS. I'm sure you could accomplish similar with AA's engine code, but you'd also be writing largely the same thing Dragonlord's working on, but with compromises to accomodate the original engine's codebase- or end up with something that doesn't even remotely resemble the original engine. :D

[L33F3R]

It's because many, if not most, of the FOSS FPS game making crowd aren't really innovative. You're not one of them, and complaints about "yet another FOSS FPS" are not reflective of YOUR endeavors- and shouldn't be taken that way.

< Because coders are not very creative. >

That statement as we know it would be far from true. But it seems that FOSS games are for the most part, quake 3 deathmatch clones with similar weapons. The ones are original used to be mods (with few exceptions). Something has got to correlate with this bombardment of shoot the bot with the rocket launcher style fps games.

[Svartalf]

< Because coders are not very creative. >

That's not QUITE what I was going for- truth of the matter is, many coders aren't all that creative in the artistic or game design sense of the word.

If you think for a longish moment about the following remarks you made:


But it seems that FOSS games are for the most part, quake 3 deathmatch clones with similar weapons. The ones are original used to be mods (with few exceptions). Something has got to correlate with this bombardment of shoot the bot with the rocket launcher style fps games.

I think you'll find that there's a correlation- and while the original ones were mods, they found something different, and went in novel ways with differing weapons, gameplay, etc. The bulk of them didn't leave their roots or deviated from the munchkinesque (a' la the D&D or Steve Jackson Games concept for the term...) stuff we keep seeing. :D

[mirv]

We're happy little vegemites as bright as bright can be...
(what I always say when people start getting riled up).

Anyway, I agree with a lot that many of the open source engines are very geared towards coders rather than artists, and this is something I realised some years back. That's why in my own hobby pet project, I'm creating an editor in tandem with an engine (at the moment its more of a playground for ideas). I'm also not interested in designing anything that's been done and so actually started playing with unique terrain texture ideas before I heard of etqw. It's been in a workable state for some time now, but is a pain to create content for (which is why I've moved back to making the tools for it again). Unfortunately, in the past when I've mentioned the word "tools" people think that it's a solved problem, and any can be used so just make an engine. That's not the best way to allow others to make content for it.
I also heartily agree with what Irritant said earlier in that game code != engine code. Just look at what people have done with the Unreal engine, and from the Quake2 engine.

And in regard to an example use of something I said earlier - Dragonlord, don't dismiss something you haven't seen ;)

[L33F3R]

The bulk of them didn't leave their roots or deviated from the munchkinesque (a' la the D&D or Steve Jackson Games concept for the term...) stuff we keep seeing. :D

true say.

Xreal engine looks positively positive if i might say so. I think its about time i played with it :)