According to iD, Quake Live for Linux/MacOS are "Top Priority"...

[Svartalf]

Per the post (http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22698) over at the Quake Live forums on current progress, plans, etc. :

Mac/Linux

These have proved more difficult than expected, but we're getting close. We expect to also be testing Mac and Linux versions of QUAKE LIVE internally this month and then making those publicly available just as soon as we feel they are ready. This work is being done by a separate programmer in parallel with the other work that we're doing, and is his only priority - point being, that this is a top priority for us and not being delayed because of other work.

While I'm not holding my breath (heh...just remember UT3...yeah, I know it's iD, not Epic, but...), it's it's looking better for it and probably Rage as well. They wouldn't be pouring that sort of effort in unless it mattered to them. :D

[leilei]

Of course. When has Carmack ever disappointed his penguin fans?

If the Linux gamer numbers are big (provided if they're not Free zealots and only play OpenArena) it might give publishers a clue that there is a linux audience.

[Svartalf]

Of course. When has Carmack ever disappointed his penguin fans?

While there's always room for a first time, so far, he's got a longer, better track record than Epic or anyone else out there has on that score.


If the Linux gamer numbers are big (provided if they're not Free zealots and only play OpenArena) it might give publishers a clue that there is a linux audience.

Most of the crowd's not "Free Zealots" (My first preference is for Stallman's "Free", but being pragmatic, I'll take slightly less and work for better over time, like we're beginning to see with the 3D support- which is bewildering, really, because they were all open at one point, save for Intel, which never was, but led the charge on that respect...)- so I wouldn't worry so much about that. It's a good shot at showing "numbers" that the marketing and sales people (Who have a decent say in what gets done at the publishers...) can see they've been snubbing a decent sized market after all.

[xav1r]

According to my BS radar readings, im getting unconventionally strong signals in that forum thread. Put out or get out (and STFU) I would tell to the kind folks at id.

[Aradreth]

According to my BS radar readings, im getting unconventionally strong signals in that forum thread. Put out or get out (and STFU) I would tell to the kind folks at id.
Nice of you call bullshit after the windows version has been in beta for a couple months especially considering the company behind it and what they've done for Linux support and FOSS. Real nice.

[L33F3R]

According to my BS radar readings, im getting unconventionally strong signals in that forum thread. Put out or get out (and STFU) I would tell to the kind folks at id.

think that might be a bit harsh. Your attacking people for giving a care.

[deanjo]

think that might be a bit harsh. Your attacking people for giving a care.

Given Carmacks recent comments on OGL, linux, choice of publishers and such to err on the side of caution is not unreasonable.

[L33F3R]

caution is 1 thing, and thats perfectly justified and well placed. Downright disrespect is another story.

[deanjo]

caution is 1 thing, and thats perfectly justified and well placed. Downright disrespect is another story.

I don't think saying basically "shit or get off the pot" is being to harsh no matter who the dev is and despite their past history. There are no guarantees that a platform will be supported even when intentions are specified.

[xav1r]

They've been saying that same thing for months now. "It's our top priority." Well, as someone in the QL boards pointed out, 1 single programmer working on both the mac and the linux clients is not a "top priority". Why can't they just be honest and say "Linux is just an afterthought, which we'll look into when/if we get time after releasing the final windows version", or just simply STFU until the linux binaries are available? Theyre starting to sound like 3DR with their on-going DNF myth/joke. Their past releases of older games' linux binaries doesnt mean anything now.

[Aradreth]

Theyre starting to sound like 3DR with their on-going DNF myth/joke.
Seriously that statement right there is idiotic you can't compare waiting to 2 months for a linux version (of a game that's still in BETA!) to waiting over 10 years.

Their past releases of older games' linux binaries doesnt mean anything now.
So we only remember companies bad behaviour and not the good? Seriously? A companies history should be consider because it often is a good representation (Atari and The Witcher anyone?) of what will happen, EPIC is an exception with the linux version but considering the why they've being going with regards to PC gaming in general its not all that surprising. So just because one company skipped on a linux client doesn't mean you should get piss over a small wait with the next one.
They've been saying that same thing for months now. "It's our top priority." Well, as someone in the QL boards pointed out, 1 single programmer working on both the mac and the linux clients is not a "top priority". Why can't they just be honest and say "Linux is just an afterthought, which we'll look into when/if we get time after releasing the final windows version"
Out of curiosity how do you know it's just one programmer handling the port and not several? References appreciated. Admittedly though I wouldn't surprised if it was just TTimo.

Oh and just to put things in perspective the longest we've had to wait for linux binaries from iD is 3 months I believe for Doom 3 whereas I believe the Mac port of their games take 6 months or so.

[L33F3R]

I don't think saying basically "shit or get off the pot" is being to harsh no matter who the dev is and despite their past history. There are no guarantees that a platform will be supported even when intentions are specified.

thats all fine and dandy and as i recall i did say that caution is well placed. If you haven't noticed they haven't promised a Linux client at point release. On the quake live website it states:

Windows XP
Windows Vista

Firefox 2.0 / 3.0
Internet Explorer 7 / 8

Support for Mac & Linux, along with alternative browsers is under development.

If you ask me, simply being under development when the game is not even done is quite an accomplishment. They are proceeding very quickly for the mac/linux scene.

Its hard to compare the stall of Epic to the progressiveness of ID when it comes to mac and linux. "shit or get off the pot" is a good statement for Epic. If you can present some evidence that ID is going to flop on QLive then please present it. All that seems to have hit me in the head so far is that good chances are mac/linux support will come shortly after the release (a few months). I see no reason to flame a company that has not broken any promises.

Maybe it wont come out. Who knows. But I personally will judge the character of a company on its past results over its rumors and skeptics. I am not a stock broker and don't intend to play one.

[Dragonlord]

I see it more of a technical problem. Linux doesn't have this "Active-X" browser crap stuff. They need to bind somehow this to a game engine able to pull some decent graphics off so they need to link out into a library. This is though not so easy on Linux as it sounds.

[xav1r]

I see it more of a technical problem. Linux doesn't have this "Active-X" browser crap stuff. They need to bind somehow this to a game engine able to pull some decent graphics off so they need to link out into a library. This is though not so easy on Linux as it sounds.

But quake live runs on firefox too, and firefox doesnt use the Active-X crap. :confused:

[L33F3R]

I see it more of a technical problem. Linux doesn't have this "Active-X" browser crap stuff. They need to bind somehow this to a game engine able to pull some decent graphics off so they need to link out into a library. This is though not so easy on Linux as it sounds.

im going to go off on a limb with this 1 because i dont know much about mac but.... Unity3D (http://unity3d.com/) (which might i say is a dead sexy piece of software) runs on mac and windows through the unity plugin. Perhaps they do something similar for quake live? I myself have not even bothered to try the beta yet unfortunately. Again I have no idea how ID is going to implement something like this.

[leilei]

QuakeLive uses its own browser plugin. It's not flash, unity, or through ActiveX.

[Svartalf]

QuakeLive uses its own browser plugin. It's not flash, unity, or through ActiveX.

There might be an Active-X plugin (it does work through IE, after all...), but there's also a Firefox plugin that seems to be packaged with an installer .msi for the plugin for the game. This translates into an installer of some sort that'd be for Firefox and anything that supports Firefox plugins on Linux.

If you're wondering, I tried to fire it up on my XP reference setup just now. I'm interested in seeing the Linux version on my machines. :D

To be sure, what I've seen is not proof they'll carry through, but...

(Speaking of Carrying Through... If you wanted Caster for Linux, your wait isn't much longer. ;) )

[Svartalf]

Again I have no idea how ID is going to implement something like this.

It's a plugin-ized version of the Q3:Arena engine- and it has nothing to do with Unity3D, which is a competing game engine product. ;)

[L33F3R]

It's a plugin-ized version of the Q3:Arena engine- and it has nothing to do with Unity3D, which is a competing game engine product. ;)

yes yes i know. but u basically got the plugin idea. so if its a browser plugin that works with firefox why is activex a big issue?

[tuke81]

ActiveX is one big wormhole... Hmm it seems that mozilla activex has not been updated since 2005:
http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/mozilla.htm
http://kb.mozillazine.org/ActiveX
Some windows program through wine needs that, can't remember which.

Edit:oops I didnt read first post of the thread...

[Dragonlord]

yes yes i know. but u basically got the plugin idea. so if its a browser plugin that works with firefox why is activex a big issue?
Active-X is a plugin architecture but in the end it's nothing else but a plugin for a browser, aka IE in this case. The main problem is to have a plugin in the first place. It doesn't matter if it's Active-X or NSPlugin or whatever. The problem is that plugins in general for Windows are not compatible with Linux and Linux only Firefox and Mozilla really use the NSPlugin architecture. And even this architecture is ground for many problems since it's more hacked together than working ( I just say Java 64-bit drama ). So using a plugin in a browser alone is a trouble-maker for getting on Linux.

[leilei]

Then buy Q3A if you don't trust the plugin concept.

[Dragonlord]

This is not about trust leilei. Please read correctly before attacking people out of the blue.

[Zhick]

So using a plugin in a browser alone is a trouble-maker for getting on Linux.
Also I see absolutely no point in running a game in a webbrowser if it still needs a plugin to be downloaded and installed. I thought the nice thing about browser-games was supposed to be their ability to be played anywhere, on any pc, with any os, as long as it's got a webbrowser.
Might just as well make it a stand-alone binary then.

[xav1r]

This is not about trust leilei. Please read correctly before attacking people out of the blue.

You'll get used to out of the blue attacks from leilei. Trust me.

[curaga]

Pardon, but isn't it possible for Java to have hardware-accelerated OpenGL?

I've seen 3d engines written in Java around; but maybe there's a difference in running as an applet in a browser vs on the full java stack?

[xav1r]

Pardon, but isn't it possible for Java to have hardware-accelerated OpenGL?

I've seen 3d engines written in Java around; but maybe there's a difference in running as an applet in a browser vs on the full java stack?

But java is slow, and , all around crap. I think its only used in mobile phone games.

[Dragonlord]

You'll get used to out of the blue attacks from leilei. Trust me.
Don't worry. I know leilei ( aka CheapAlert ) from ModDB ( since v1 even if I did not have an active account yet back then ) since a long time. He's random at times so you need to point it out :D

[Dragonlord]

But java is slow, and , all around crap. I think its only used in mobile phone games.
Mobile games is another story. At a IGDA Chapter meeting we had once a talk of somebody active in the mobile phone game/app creation and he explained well where the fuck is in all this. Java is only one solution there and not even as standardized as one wishes for. Jet though it's one of the better solutions ( like more less standard as the rest :P ).

[L33F3R]

Active-X is a plugin architecture but in the end it's nothing else but a plugin for a browser, aka IE in this case. The main problem is to have a plugin in the first place. It doesn't matter if it's Active-X or NSPlugin or whatever. The problem is that plugins in general for Windows are not compatible with Linux and Linux only Firefox and Mozilla really use the NSPlugin architecture. And even this architecture is ground for many problems since it's more hacked together than working ( I just say Java 64-bit drama ). So using a plugin in a browser alone is a trouble-maker for getting on Linux.

that just about educated me. :)
thx a bunch :D

[L33F3R]

But java is slow, and , all around crap. I think its only used in mobile phone games.

check out jake2

benchmarks (prolly a bit bias), show only a minor speed reduction.

http://bytonic.de/html/benchmarks.html

Its prolly been improved upon quite a bit over the original Q2 source.

[deanjo]

( I just say Java 64-bit drama ).

Stop using icedtea and start using Suns official 64-bit plug-in. No more drama.

[Dragonlord]

@deanjo:
The drama IS with the official 64-bit java plugin of Sun. I don't use icedtea at all. If I need to visit a java based website I need to use Konqueror since it uses directly the java binary not requiring any plugin. This though is a Konqueror unique so other browsers require the plugin and this plugin is still not working on a 64-bit machine. I tested it on entire 3 machines with Gentoo and Kubuntu without any luck. And since majority of people on the internet experience the same problems I'm confident it's not some spurious software incompatibility.

@L33F3R:
Careful comparing/benching Java. It has JIT which falsifies the results. Pure java is slow. JITed Java can be very fast ( what a miracle if it's native compiled ).

[deanjo]

@deanjo:
The drama IS with the official 64-bit java plugin of Sun. I don't use icedtea at all. If I need to visit a java based website I need to use Konqueror since it uses directly the java binary not requiring any plugin. This though is a Konqueror unique so other browsers require the plugin and this plugin is still not working on a 64-bit machine. I tested it on entire 3 machines with Gentoo and Kubuntu without any luck. And since majority of people on the internet experience the same problems I'm confident it's not some spurious software incompatibility.


Having a bit of hard time understanding that. So are you saying the problems are Konq specific? I have the sun plugin working perfectly fine in ff and opera and openSUSE users don't seem to have a problem with it. Do you have any examples of sites where the plug-in doesn't work (as compared to the 32-bit plugin).

Edit: OK I get what your saying about konq. Still I cannot share your issues with the 64-bit plugin. Please post some site links where it is not working for you.

[curaga]

Opera uses Java directly too instead of the plugin.

[deanjo]

Opera uses Java directly too instead of the plugin.

Ya, I realize that. Just saying I haven't ran into issues with my mainly used browsers in 64-bit since the java release containing the 64-bit plugin.

[Svartalf]

But java is slow, and , all around crap. I think its only used in mobile phone games.

Have you tried Tribal Trouble or Bang! Howdy? I suggest you see what box you need to draw around things before calling it "crap". Moreover, you can use it to make nicer multiplatform games, if done right, than with things like GameEditor. :D

[Dragonlord]

Having a bit of hard time understanding that. So are you saying the problems are Konq specific? I have the sun plugin working perfectly fine in ff and opera and openSUSE users don't seem to have a problem with it. Do you have any examples of sites where the plug-in doesn't work (as compared to the 32-bit plugin).

Edit: OK I get what your saying about konq. Still I cannot share your issues with the 64-bit plugin. Please post some site links where it is not working for you.
Any website having a Java applet. The plugin doesn't show up in firefox at all since it fails to load. So you get this nice little gray square telling you that Sun sucks.

[deanjo]

Any website having a Java applet. The plugin doesn't show up in firefox at all since it fails to load. So you get this nice little gray square telling you that Sun sucks.

Like I said it all works fine here, sounds more like a distro / packaging issue more then anything else. Can't blame sun for piss poor distro packaging.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c316/deanjo/java64.jpg

[Dragonlord]

Then a heck lot of people would be "morons" which I doubt. Are you sure you run "real" 64-bit and not through a 32-bit layer or using the multi-lib abstraction? Since these are pulled in automatically if you have an 32-bit Java plugin.

[Aradreth]

Then a heck lot of people would be "morons" which I doubt. Are you sure you run "real" 64-bit and not through a 32-bit layer or using the multi-lib abstraction? Since these are pulled in automatically if you have an 32-bit Java plugin.
I'm running 64bit and both openJDK6 and the binary from sun work fine, and this isn't using multi-libs.

[dashcloud]

But java is slow, and , all around crap. I think its only used in mobile phone games.

I used to think along those lines until I found ProjectX, which does its job so well that I just can't work up the energy to care about the other Java programs that disappoint.

[Dragonlord]

I'm running 64bit and both openJDK6 and the binary from sun work fine, and this isn't using multi-libs.
I can test here with all machines I've got ( 5 or so ) with two different distros and 64-bit is not working. Are you using an unofficial, experimental build? Because I remember from the GenToo forums that somebody mentioned that you could try the highly experimental build from Sun itself which might work but also might not.

[deanjo]

Then a heck lot of people would be "morons" which I doubt. Are you sure you run "real" 64-bit and not through a 32-bit layer or using the multi-lib abstraction? Since these are pulled in automatically if you have an 32-bit Java plugin.

1000% sure. No unofficial. It wouldn't be the first time gentoo has issues like this.

[Aradreth]

I can test here with all machines I've got ( 5 or so ) with two different distros and 64-bit is not working. Are you using an unofficial, experimental build? Because I remember from the GenToo forums that somebody mentioned that you could try the highly experimental build from Sun itself which might work but also might not.
I tested JRE 6 update 13 (the lastest one).

[L33F3R]

i think what we need here is a java support thread XD

[xav1r]

Yeah, can we get back on topic plz??? What was the topic? Hmm, oh yeah, quake live on linux being MIA.

[Aradreth]

Yeah, can we get back on topic plz??? What was the topic? Hmm, oh yeah, quake live on linux being MIA.
Sorry but:
http://omploader.org/vMW4zaQ

[Svartalf]

Sorry but:
http://omploader.org/vMW4zaQ

ROFLMAO! Now where did you find THAT?

[Dragonlord]

Hehe... this one ends up in my funny collection. One of the few forum-fun-images which are indeed fun :P

[Redeeman]

@deanjo:
The drama IS with the official 64-bit java plugin of Sun. I don't use icedtea at all. If I need to visit a java based website I need to use Konqueror since it uses directly the java binary not requiring any plugin. This though is a Konqueror unique so other browsers require the plugin and this plugin is still not working on a 64-bit machine. I tested it on entire 3 machines with Gentoo and Kubuntu without any luck. And since majority of people on the internet experience the same problems I'm confident it's not some spurious software incompatibility.


Well... after being made aware of your situation, and deanjos recommendation, i figured i'd like to give you some log from #phoronix on freenode..

.... deanjo makes comments about gentoo and sun java ....
<Deanjo> and btw, it's not only suse that it works on. It's pretty much anything BUT gentoo
<redeeman> Deanjo: are you telling me that on gentoo, the 64bit plugin does not work?
<redeeman> on which java version?
<Deanjo> on the official 64-bit 1.6 plugin
<redeeman> which i get in which java version?
<Deanjo> Java 6 Update 3
<redeeman> it does not appear to be in the jdk 1.6.0.13
<redeeman> ah
<redeeman> i installed without nsplugin
<redeeman> let me redo
<Deanjo> no nsplugin needed
<Deanjo> native 64-bit
<redeeman> yes, aka netscape plugin?
<redeeman> im not talking about wrapper here :P
<Deanjo> ya the netscape one.
<redeeman> that's an optional useflag on gentoo
<redeeman> which i am getting now
<redeeman> ahh, now it shows up in eselect
<Deanjo> http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=73122&postcount=33
<redeeman> it works fine for me, Deanjo
<redeeman> i just switched to it
<Deanjo> might want to make a howto for dragonlord then lol
<Deanjo> http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16779&page=4
<redeeman> all i did was enable nsplugin on the package, thereby having the actual plugin installed, and then run: eselect java-nsplugin set 64bit sun-jdk-1.6
<redeeman> and then fire up a firefox
<redeeman> then run about:plugins to ensure its correct
<redeeman> and then test a java applet-containing site
<redeeman> and voila
<Deanjo> Ya, kinda figured it was a PEBKAC issue
<redeeman> you see, gentoo is nothing magic, one way or the other, it contains the same packages, typically with a few patches (which they get from fedora/upstream, or make themselves, and push upstream), and in the case of something like java, obviously its the exact same binaries as other distributions enjoy, and as such, it behaves pretty much the same
<redeeman> there have however been, ~1.5-2 years ago, some minor issues with java for people that enabled libxcb in libx11
<redeeman> which ofcourse gentoo couldnt fix as it didn't build the binaries
<Deanjo> Ya I know, according to dragonlord though alot of people are having issues getting it going in gentoo.
<redeeman> well... :)
<Deanjo> You might want to post how you did it so Dargonlord can stop implying everybody is bullshitting him

[Dragonlord]

This is all nice and well but I knew this already. I'm not stupid. I use GenToo since a long time especially in business servers. And yes, I did "exactly" like this but it doesn't work, on all machines I have GenToo on. Not the first time something doesn't work which they put on stable. You don't want to know how often they break stable thing and have no clue why. That's the way it is :P

EDIT: Just to make it a bit more clear: eselect knows, but not firefox or others:
# eselect java-nsplugin list
Available 32-bit Java browser plugins
Available 64-bit Java browser plugins
[1] sun-jdk-1.6 current
Listed in eselect but not working. That's the deal.

EDIT: EDIT: For more clarification:
about: plugins
Shockwave Flash
....File name: libflashplayer.so
NPAPI Plugins Wrapper 1.0.0
....File name: npwrapper.so
OpenOffice.org Plug-in
....File name: libnpsoplugin.so

And the wrapper is only active on this machine not the others I tested with ( has to do with some web-dev stuff I have to deal with at the time being so it's temporary ).

And this is what not only I get hence my comment. Nice if it works for people but it is not stable yet, sorry about that.

[L33F3R]

i deem this thread the legendary phoronix hijack :D

[xav1r]

Yea, mods or anyone that can, could you please rename the thread subject to "jdk fanship discussion" or something similar?

[Zhick]

@Dragonlord:
What does ls -l /usr/lib64/nsbrowser/plugins/ say?
If there's no symlink to /opt/foo/bar.so (don't know the exact directory anymore, something with sun in it... switched to IcedTea a while ago) you might as well create it yourself.

[Dragonlord]

ls -l /usr/lib64/nsbrowser/plugins
total 0
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 59 2009-05-17 00:25 javaplugin.so -> /usr/share/java-config-2/nsplugin/sun-jdk-1.6-javaplugin.so
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 39 2009-03-14 19:03 libflashplayer.so -> /opt/netscape/plugins/libflashplayer.so
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 52 2008-10-04 18:26 npwrapper.so -> /usr/lib64/nspluginwrapper/x86_64/linux/npwrapper.so
As you can see, the lib is there but it is utterly malfunctioning. With other words: NOT WORKING. Which is what I say all the time and all the other people which those GenToo slackers label now "morons" or "liars". This is one of the problem with GenToo board in general. They tend to think they own the fucking place and ignoring errors makes those going fucking vanish into oblivion! Guess what, reality is NOT like this. Trying to ignore errors is fucking M$ mentality and has nothing lost in the free software realm.

Most important hacker rule: "It's not important what works but what DOESN'T since this improves software"

[Zhick]

Well. nobody here is calling you a liar and reading your other posts here on the board it's pretty obvious you're no moron. Just trying to help. :P
How about filing a bug on bugs.gentoo.org? A quick search for "java plugin" didn't bring up any issues that sounded similiar to yours.
I'm sure it will be accepted when you provide enough information (eg eselect java-nsplugin list, ls -l /usr/lib64/nsbrowser/plugin/ and of course emerge --info). Maybe the maintainers just aren't fully aware of this problem, or can't be sure it's not just a configuration-issue.

[Dragonlord]

Not really. I had already deleted or simply "don't care" assigned bugs. Unless that system there changes I'm not going to touch that bug tracker again. Besides it's not important for me. I use Java usually only standalone and next to never applets. And if so I use Konqueror waiting until they fix this on their own ( upstream ). I know others are more pissed by this situation but unless something happens inside the GenToo administration things won't work faster. Just minding my own business fixing what I can fix right now. That helps more than wasting time getting kicked on the bug tracker.

[Kano]

Why don't you uninstall the plugin wrapper? It is useless anyway.

[Dragonlord]

Why don't you uninstall the plugin wrapper? It is useless anyway.
If you would have read my post instead of quick-shotting this one here you would know <.=.<

[Redeeman]

just a suggestion, how about disable some crap plugin from adobe?

well... what can i say.. the plugin works.. what the reason is on your box, i cannot tell, but i suspect its something user caused...

i run no-multilib profile, firefox 3.0.10, useflags java and custom-optimization, sun-jdk version 1.6.0.13, useflags X, alsa, jce, nsplugin.

[Dragonlord]

Denial is bliss. Didn't expect anything else though. Let's move on... certain GenToo folks will just never learn.

[d2kx]

May 26, 2009

While most of the changes you will see are likely going to be the new map releases, we are busy on the new features we promised. Support for Linux and Mac is coming along nicely, as well as work on the private servers and leaderboards.