Ubuntu 9.10 Off To A Great Performance Start [Archive] - Page 2

Apopas

05-23-2009, 07:50 PM

Wait a minute, xen requires windows and wine is emulation. Are you now conceding that linux does not have all the solutions needed to effectively replace windows? (BTW most of those apps won't run in wine)
Wine, emulation or not doesn't require window$ and its a native GPL Linux application. Also, I have never tried a 2D app that didn't work under recent versions of wine.
All I have said is that Linux is perfect for the average user. Easy and stable and complete. If the average user needs so much a specific application or every bullshit that the weekly magazines offer and has bought windows after all, then why don't use it under xen (another open source, native Linux application)?
Is as if you say that you can't play WoW in Linux because it needs Wine to run. So? It runs perfectly and even Blizzard has instructions!

Handbrake on a sempron is slow as molasses, with a 8800GT it skins it alive in time to encode when compared to a older CPU
Well, what specific problem is that? Linux's fault? Handbrake's or hardware's? I have an old 3000+ Athlon64 with 8500GT and handbrake works like a charm (and dvdrip).

That's why you use quotes, to snapshot your reply to's.
What quotes have to do if they are posted after the answer?

FUD = Fear, uncertianty and doubt
They are in fear and doubt? LOL:D:D About what?
That's what characterizes the ones who don't want to make the switch from windows to Linux no the opposite HAHAHAHAHA
Or you mean that they fear to go back to windows because they will have to deal again with the same old, stupid problems? :p

deanjo

05-23-2009, 08:32 PM

Wine, emulation or not doesn't require window$ and its a native GPL Linux application. Also, I have never tried a 2D app that didn't work under recent versions of wine.
All I have said is that Linux is perfect for the average user. Easy and stable and complete. If the average user needs so much a specific application or every bullshit that the weekly magazines offer and has bought windows after all, then why don't use it under xen (another open source, native Linux application)?

Maybe you should read what xen is before proclaiming it's greatness. Xen requires Windows to run windows apps.

Never had a 2d app run in wine then boy you really haven't tried much now have you. Even then alot of time you require Windows dlls to even get it to function 1/2 assed.

Is as if you say that you can't play WoW in Linux because it needs Wine to run. So? It runs perfectly and even Blizzard has instructions!

And what about the thousands (read vast majority) of other apps that don't run in wine. Wine works fine in a very very very very limited amount of apps.

Well, what specific problem is that? Linux's fault? Handbrake's or hardware's? I have an old 3000+ Athlon64 with 8500GT and handbrake works like a charm (and dvdrip).

Handbrake is not GPU accelerated at ALL. All transcoding is done via CPU which is much slower ( read multiple times slower ) then a 8800GT can handle when compare to a sempron.

What quotes have to do if they are posted after the answer?

So you don't make a fool out of yourself like you did in your reply. Which I might add was still fully answered in the original unedited response.

They are in fear and doubt? LOL:D:D About what?
That's what characterizes the ones who don't want to make the switch from windows to Linux no the opposite HAHAHAHAHA
Or you mean that they fear to go back to windows because they will have to deal again with the same old, stupid problems? :p

No it means promoting a OS through greatly over exagerating the issues of others which alternative OS zealots love to do while convienently ignoring their own OS of choice shortcoming.

deanjo

05-23-2009, 08:44 PM

Beside's some anti-virus apps are just to damn cool for a geek.

http://www.sophos.com/klingon-anti-virus/

yotambien

05-23-2009, 08:54 PM

Every OS has drawbacks. If not then everyone would have switched to the specific one without them. So what really matters are your priorities.

We agree here, although I'm sure there's people who still wouldn't. The difference is that I refuse to see it all pink when, dammit, it is not.

My bests friends father [...] spent about 1500 Euros (about 2000$) for a TV/Video card. I think was Hauppauge's. He worked it for few months with that still XP came out and didn't support it, unfortunately for him Hauppauge did never make drivers for XP.
Your turn now... if you want I can give examples till eternity or till you realize that both ways of computers evolution have advantages and disadvantages, both open source and proprietary each for its own reasons.

But of course. Shit happens either way. What I want you to realize is that having the source open is not, on its own, a guarantee that you will have good, continuous, and timely support for anything. In the same way that you rely on the company who developed the drivers in the first place, you rely on the will of somebody who, for some reason, cares to do the same in the open source world. Me? I want my stuff to work, and to work well. I don't want shit to break just because. And this, unfortunately for my particular piece of hardware, hasn't happened for the last four years, nor with the closed aproach neither with the open one. However, I am of the opinion that had the basic internals of the linux kernel not changed with every release, had it had some standards third party companies could follow, I would not see this continuous breakage.

By the way, and not that it matters much--I told you personal examples are mostly irrelevant--there is a difference between a company deciding not to develop some drivers for an OS and a simple program stopping to work out of the blue.

Wine, emulation or not doesn't require window$ and its a native GPL Linux application. Also, I have never tried a 2D app that didn't work under recent versions of wine.

Maybe you have to try harder then. There are loads. How about serious stuff like WiRE (http://www.renishaw.com/en/9450.aspx), or OMNIC (http://www.thermo.com/com/cda/product/detail/0,1055,1000001344622,00.html), or FibreFix (http://www.small-angle.ac.uk/small-angle/Software/FibreFix.html) (it's rethoric, you can't).

All I have said is that Linux is perfect for the average user. Easy and stable and complete.

Well, obviously we don't agree on this one. I don't recommend linux to 'the average' user unless they especifically ask for it and I am satisfied that they are aware of what problems and shortcomings it has. One funny thing is that companies like Adobe or Skype, by making their products available for linux, are actually pushing to make the platform useful for some of the most mundane tasks like reading a bloody pdf file or having a voice chat. Yep, closed source. I so hope that others follow suit.

If the average user needs so much a specific application or every bullshit that the weekly magazines offer and has bought windows after all, then why don't use it under xen (another open source, native Linux application)?

Why, oh, why? Why your average user would want to do that? She was able to run all those applications in the first place, don't you get it? Are you seriously proposing that Jimmy would be better off installing linux, going to this ( http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HowTos) site, finding the appropriate tutorial (there are many) and bothering with Xen hypervisors, to finally installing Windows on top of it? Are you really?

I didn't think I had to say this, but if you really, honestly believe Windows is slow, unstable and infected with virus, seriously, guys, you are doing it WRONG.

Beside's some anti-virus apps are just to damn cool for a geek.

http://www.sophos.com/klingon-anti-virus/

Hahahh...that's the one we have at work. I'm gonna ask the IT guy to install the translation.

Apopas

05-23-2009, 09:30 PM

Maybe you should read what xen is before proclaiming it's greatness. Xen requires Windows to run windows apps.

Never had a 2d app run in wine then boy you really haven't tried much now have you. Even then alot of time you require Windows dlls to even get it to function 1/2 assed.
What?
I have tried just the last week an app for taxes that a local magazine gave here.
I used wine to play a 2D collectible card game online.
I've tried even office2000 in the past just for fun.
I've tried firefox with wine just to compare it with the native one.
Ages ago also, I used to run QuickTime.

And what about the thousands (read vast majority) of other apps that don't run in wine. Wine works fine in a very very very very limited amount of apps.
The average user (for that kind of user we speak all these days here) won't need some extreme application. 99% will be fine with the native Linux ones. If he needs something so bad then some of the windows equivalents will run with wine.

Handbrake is not GPU accelerated at ALL. All transcoding is done via CPU which is much slower ( read multiple times slower ) then a 8800GT can handle when compare to a sempron.
As far as I know the encoders themselves (x264, xvid etc) are not GPU accelerated. Anyway, I know that GPU is over ten times faster than CPU when it has to do with such things, but I also read that this dabadum you use, can not use the highest qualities of H264 and uses a tweaked version of x264 that produces some artifacts in the final video. Plus this thing costs over 20 euros. I prefer to eat 4 pizzas with these money...

So you don't make a fool out of yourself like you did in your reply. Which I might add was still fully answered in the original unedited response.
When I answered to that post of yours I quoted it and in that quote there was not an answer. You edited it later and then you gave it, no just the pulseaudio. You can keep arguing till the end of your days. That's what I saw. Period!

No it means promoting a OS through greatly over exagerating the issues of others which alternative OS zealots love to do while convienently ignoring their own OS of choice shortcoming.
Where did I exaggerate? What issues of windows did I write? Read more carefully than just guess that I did because most of guys do like that.
I just said the reason I installed Linux to my cousin's puter at first place and then talked about synaptic and the other things he liked in Linux.
Is that exageration?

Apopas

05-23-2009, 09:31 PM

Beside's some anti-virus apps are just to damn cool for a geek.

http://www.sophos.com/klingon-anti-virus/

That's the first time I see someone who is proud for using antivirus...

Apopas

05-23-2009, 09:44 PM

We agree here, although I'm sure there's people who still wouldn't. The difference is that I refuse to see it all pink when, dammit, it is not.
That's exactly what I say. Nothing is perfect.

But of course. Shit happens either way. What I want you to realize is that having the source open is not, on its own, a guarantee that you will have good, continuous, and timely support for anything. In the same way that you rely on the company who developed the drivers in the first place, you rely on the will of somebody who, for some reason, cares to do the same in the open source world. Me? I want my stuff to work, and to work well. I don't want shit to break just because. And this, unfortunately for my particular piece of hardware, hasn't happened for the last four years, nor with the closed aproach neither with the open one. However, I am of the opinion that had the basic internals of the linux kernel not changed with every release, had it had some standards third party companies could follow, I would not see this continuous breakage.
And I believe that Linux only in its current form will continue to evolute more than the other systems.

By the way, and not that it matters much--I told you personal examples are mostly irrelevant--there is a difference between a company deciding not to develop some drivers for an OS and a simple program stopping to work out of the blue.
I never had experience with a program which suddenly stopped to work.

Maybe you have to try harder then. There are loads. How about serious stuff like WiRE (http://www.renishaw.com/en/9450.aspx), or OMNIC (http://www.thermo.com/com/cda/product/detail/0,1055,1000001344622,00.html), or FibreFix (http://www.small-angle.ac.uk/small-angle/Software/FibreFix.html) (it's rethoric, you can't).
Bro, these are applications for experts no for average users. I'm talking about average user here who wants to surf, chat, listen music etc.

Well, obviously we don't agree on this one. I don't recommend linux to 'the average' user unless they especifically ask for it and I am satisfied that they are aware of what problems and shortcomings it has. One funny thing is that companies like Adobe or Skype, by making their products available for linux, are actually pushing to make the platform useful for some of the most mundane tasks like reading a bloody pdf file or having a voice chat. Yep, closed source. I so hope that others follow suit.
There are other opensource pdf readers and voice chat programs out there.

Why, oh, why? Why your average user would want to do that? She was able to run all those applications in the first place, don't you get it? Are you seriously proposing that Jimmy would be better off installing linux, going to this ( http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HowTos) site, finding the appropriate tutorial (there are many) and bothering with Xen hypervisors, to finally installing Windows on top of it? Are you really?
For the extreme case she wants most of anything else to run a specific application.

I didn't think I had to say this, but if you really, honestly believe Windows is slow, unstable and infected with virus, seriously, guys, you are doing it WRONG.
Noone can convince me to change opinion with words, for things I've experienced with my own eyes!

Hahahh...that's the one we have at work. I'm gonna ask the IT guy to install the translation.
The second one...

deanjo

05-24-2009, 12:43 AM

What?
I have tried just the last week an app for taxes that a local magazine gave here.
I used wine to play a 2D collectible card game online.
I've tried even office2000 in the past just for fun.
I've tried firefox with wine just to compare it with the native one.
Ages ago also, I used to run QuickTime.

Wow a whole 5 apps, again you are sadly mistaken if you think wine is great at anything except 3d apps. You saw a tax application on a local magazine. So what? You can't even say you tried running it or the quality of it or if it spans every taxation across the word.

The average user (for that kind of user we speak all these days here) won't need some extreme application. 99% will be fine with the native Linux ones. If he needs something so bad then some of the windows equivalents will run with wine.

Sorry but if you think the average user is just a web surfer you are SORELY mistaken. The basics, such as web use and wordprocessing can be done on any OS, however the avarage person has many other uses as well for a machine other then those basics. You don't believe me open your eyes and see what people have installed on their machines.

As far as I know the encoders themselves (x264, xvid etc) are not GPU accelerated. Anyway, I know that GPU is over ten times faster than CPU when it has to do with such things, but I also read that this dabadum you use, can not use the highest qualities of H264 and uses a tweaked version of x264 that produces some artifacts in the final video. Plus this thing costs over 20 euros. I prefer to eat 4 pizzas with these money...

Again you would be WRONG in assuming that the encoders are not accellerated. That is the current case with linux not with apps in windows there are more and more GPU accelerated apps every week in video from advanced video filtering to encoding. Applications such as vReveal, adobe premiere, badaboom, nero, cyberlink Pegsys TMPEnc, etc etc. Quality wise, having watched MANY GPU assisted video's you have to be a real eagle eye to spot any difference. In fact most of those early issues have been rectified with later versions.

When I answered to that post of yours I quoted it and in that quote there was not an answer. You edited it later and then you gave it, no just the pulseaudio. You can keep arguing till the end of your days. That's what I saw. Period!

Sorry sir, but you are a liar. Plain and simple.

Where did I exaggerate? What issues of windows did I write? Read more carefully than just guess that I did because most of guys do like that.
I just said the reason I installed Linux to my cousin's puter at first place and then talked about synaptic and the other things he liked in Linux.
Is that exageration?

Your promoting of vm's being a viable alternative for the average user and even more laughable your promoting of wine as a cure all for the shortages of quality desktop apps on linux.

deanjo

05-24-2009, 12:49 AM

One last thing to, badaboom does not use x264. It's elementals own h264 codec. What it does use for decoding is ffmpeg libraries. Please, really, refrain on trying to comment on items you clearly have little or no practical use or knowledge of.

neuron

05-24-2009, 02:09 AM

Wait a minute, xen requires windows and wine is emulation. Are you now conceding that linux does not have all the solutions needed to effectively replace windows? (BTW most of those apps won't run in wine)

Classic windows moron reply, "what, are you telling me linux doesn't have the windows solution I choose to handle a problem". No, you may however find linux solutions to it.

And what about the thousands (read vast majority) of other apps that don't run in wine. Wine works fine in a very very very very limited amount of apps.

May have been true years ago, however your talking about running old windows programs he's run for years, and wine works perfectly well for that scenario and is rock stable. Hell some software run faster under wine than under windows (I remember I got higher fps running Q3 under wine than in windows).

One funny thing is that companies like Adobe or Skype, by making their products available for linux, are actually pushing to make the platform useful for some of the most mundane tasks like reading a bloody pdf file or having a voice chat. Yep, closed source. I so hope that others follow suit.

Linux has had better support for pdf than windows has for years, windows still requires custom software to load one, linux has both had this built in, and ability to export to pdf in most software for years, we have no need for acrobat reader...

Sorry but if you think the average user is just a web surfer you are SORELY mistaken. The basics, such as web use and wordprocessing can be done on any OS, however the avarage person has many other uses as well for a machine other then those basics. You don't believe me open your eyes and see what people have installed on their machines.

For fun I did check, a friend of mine brought her windows xp laptop here and it was laying on my desk pending instalation of linux as the windows is beyond repair (she had a virus scanner/anti spyware etc, it didn't help her).

1 : 2 pieces of shareware graphics editing software.
2 : Skype
3 : Firefox over IE, to be fair I installed that one.
4 : Antivirus
5 : Anti spyware (2)
6 : Firewall
7 : Office package
8 : VLC
9 : itunes.

Skipping antivirus/anti spyware and firewall (which makes that light laptop run like a snail) every piece of software on that list comes with a free alternative installed by default by every linux distro out there. Some of her programs are even originally made for linux. Fact is a huge amount of users are only interested in getting their pictures onto facebook with their laptops these days.

//edit, I just realized she also has a shareware powerdvd install which means she hasn't watched any movies since it ran out, as she cant figure out how to get rid of it and she wont buy it.

yotambien

05-24-2009, 05:11 AM

Bro, these are applications for experts no for average users. I'm talking about average user here who wants to surf, chat, listen music etc.

And yet, Windows has no problems whatsoever in running them. Ah, but they are Windows applications, that must be why. How about, then, dropping a couple of linux commandments? Specifically, "from embedded systems to supercomputers, linux pwns it all", and "there are open source alternatives for every single task out there".

There are other opensource pdf readers and voice chat programs out there.

There are others, only that they suck. And quite badly at it. As for the voice chat ones, without commenting on their overall quality, I guess they are OKish if all you want to do is to communicate with the geek squad. The rest of the world uses something else.

"what, are you telling me linux doesn't have the windows solution I choose to handle a problem". No, you may however find linux solutions to it.

How about, uhm, not?

May have been true years ago, however your talking about running old windows programs he's run for years, and wine works perfectly well for that scenario and is rock stable. Hell some software run faster under wine than under windows (I remember I got higher fps running Q3 under wine than in windows).

Of course. The following is a breakdown of the first and last page of the WineHQ application database. In the case of an application having more than one version I included those too:

garbage: 27 - 34%
bronze: 14 - 18%
silver: 7 - 9%
gold: 21 - 27%
plat: 10 - 13%

To refresh your memory, these are the definitions of 'Gold' and 'Silver' applications:

Gold:

"Application works flawlessly with some DLL overrides, other settings or third party software."

Sweet.

Silver:

"Application works excellently for ‘normal’ use; a game works fine in single-player but not in multi-player, Windows Media Player works fine as a plug-in and stand-alone player, but cannot handle DRM etc."

Notice how "normal use" actually DOES NOT translate into "use".

Linux has had better support for pdf than windows has for years, windows still requires custom software to load one, linux has both had this built in, and ability to export to pdf in most software for years, we have no need for acrobat reader...

That's utter nonsense. You may want to get a clue before posting.

neuron

05-24-2009, 05:22 AM

That's utter nonsense. You may want to get a clue before posting.

...wtf is your problem? This is pure trolling, windows requires software to read and write pdf, a lot of linux applications have write capability, and every distro out there comes with a reader which works perfectly fine.

I work with pdf's daily for project reports and I've never once needed custom software for it on linux.

kraftman

05-24-2009, 06:41 AM

...wtf is your problem? This is pure trolling

True. He ignores real arguments and talks about thing he doesn't have even idea. It's not even worth to continue this thread, because winboys messed it too much. One time they talk about compatibility with old programs, then about completely different things and now you can read about wine. It's second Yotambien approach to proof windows is better without giving arguments. What I learned from his posts is he has many complexes. Probably someone told him Windows and Macos are bad. The best thing is their nonsenses have no reflection in reality. However, maybe it's desperate try to cure wounded ego?

@Yotambien

And yet, Windows has no problems whatsoever in running them.Neither Linux. Fool will pay for things which he can have for free and which are open source. This matters a lot. Hehe, one more thing. If you started talking about wine don't forget its devs have to 'implement' windows bugs to make some apps working. Be more lenient next time.

Apopas

05-24-2009, 06:56 AM

Wow a whole 5 apps, again you are sadly mistaken if you think wine is great at anything except 3d apps. You saw a tax application on a local magazine. So what? You can't even say you tried running it or the quality of it or if it spans every taxation across the word.
I SAID I TRIED IT! Who has selective view now?
It run without problems and it does its job very well.
Also I have 100% success. I doubt it's just luck.

Sorry but if you think the average user is just a web surfer you are SORELY mistaken. The basics, such as web use and wordprocessing can be done on any OS, however the avarage person has many other uses as well for a machine other then those basics. You don't believe me open your eyes and see what people have installed on their machines.
Plz open your eyes as well. The vast majority of people use their computer to surf and watch movides. It seems the computer world is has advanced levels in your area.

Again you would be WRONG in assuming that the encoders are not accellerated. That is the current case with linux not with apps in windows there are more and more GPU accelerated apps every week in video from advanced video filtering to encoding. Applications such as vReveal, adobe premiere, badaboom, nero, cyberlink Pegsys TMPEnc, etc etc. Quality wise, having watched MANY GPU assisted video's you have to be a real eagle eye to spot any difference. In fact most of those early issues have been rectified with later versions.
Actually, since I don't have personal experience I can only rely in web's articles and all say that the output quality isn't yet as good.

Sorry sir, but you are a liar. Plain and simple.
:rolleyes:

Your promoting of vm's being a viable alternative for the average user and even more laughable your promoting of wine as a cure all for the shortages of quality desktop apps on linux.
When I spoke with my example in comparison with yours did I say a thing about it? Who's the liar now? Well it's obvious mr, you don't know what you say. You answer to a post and then you use things I said later to justify your answer in previous posts. It seems you believe the the average user is some kind of lesser geek. Fortunately most of us know the truth.
I'm tired to speak with you.

Apopas

05-24-2009, 07:13 AM

And yet, Windows has no problems whatsoever in running them. Ah, but they are Windows applications, that must be why. How about, then, dropping a couple of linux commandments? Specifically, "from embedded systems to supercomputers, linux pwns it all", and "there are open source alternatives for every single task out there".
I fail to understand your point here!

There are others, only that they suck. And quite badly at it. As for the voice chat ones, without commenting on their overall quality, I guess they are OKish if all you want to do is to communicate with the geek squad. The rest of the world uses something else.
Why the hell evince sucks? Pdf viewers are used to read pdf files. Fast and plainly. Fullscreen, next, previous, better fit etc... I can't really see why to install 50 MB just to read pdfs? Hell even in windows machines a lot of guys don't use acrobat reader. But anyway lets say you NEED so much Acrobat, then just install that crap, it runs native on Linux. You say that fortunately adobe ported it to Linux, but isn't that what you finally want? To see every stupid program to be ported to Linux?
But I can see what's your major problem finally. Skype is good because the rest of the world uses it. Ekiga is a piece of crap because is used only by a few Linux geeks so is Linux. Since windows are used by 90% then they are the best. Seriously sir I liked to argue with you but you dissapointed me with your last statement!

That's utter nonsense. You may want to get a clue before posting.
neuron is correct!

deanjo

05-24-2009, 07:54 AM

I SAID I TRIED IT! Who has selective view now?
It run without problems and it does its job very well.
Also I have 100% success. I doubt it's just luck.

Read the WineHQ list. I can quite literally list 100's of apps that do not work in any shape or function ranging from Win 3.1 titles to todays latest.

Plz open your eyes as well. The vast majority of people use their computer to surf and watch movides. It seems the computer world is has advanced levels in your area.
They are hardly advanced. Apps you can buy off the shelf and are stocked everywhere. I guess retailers just stock them for looks don't they. Chances are, I probably see more average consumer systems in a week then you do in a month or more.

Again you would be WRONG in assuming that the encoders are not accellerated.
Name me one GPU accelerated video encoder in linux. Hint Handbrake doesn't use any.

Actually, since I don't have personal experience I can only rely in web's articles and all say that the output quality isn't yet as good.
So that makes you qualified to make a judgement on a product that you have 0 experience with?

When I spoke with my example in comparison with yours did I say a thing about it? Who's the liar now? Well it's obvious mr, you don't know what you say. I know very well what I say.

You answer to a post and then you use things I said later to justify your answer in previous posts.That is a whole purpose of a reply.

It seems you believe the the average user is some kind of lesser geek. Fortunately most of us know the truth.Not at all, it seems you are the one that seems to think that the average user just surfs the web and IM's

I'm tired to speak with you.So don't.

susikala

05-24-2009, 08:05 AM

And yet, Windows has no problems whatsoever in running them. Ah, but they are Windows applications, that must be why. How about, then, dropping a couple of linux commandments? Specifically, "from embedded systems to supercomputers, linux pwns it all", and "there are open source alternatives for every single task out there".

Please stop with that Windows-centric view. I like merging directories of AVIs and SRTs into MKVs (mkvmerge). Could you find me an application on Windows that does it recursively as easily as I can do it with a bash one-liner?

There are others, only that they suck. And quite badly at it. As for the voice chat ones, without commenting on their overall quality, I guess they are OKish if all you want to do is to communicate with the geek squad. The rest of the world uses something else.
PDF is an open format. Saying Linux has no good PDF readers either means you never tried any, or a are a liar (and since you are the one trying to promote Windows on a _Linux_ BBS, this might actually be truthful). It's by no way a Windows-centric application, PDFs have nothing to do with Windows.

I do agree about VOIP though. However, Ekiga is making extreme progress and I already use it partially.

Also, the argument of "no one uses it" is moot. If you say that, then what's the point of this website and Linux in general, as only 1% of all Desktop users use it? Fact is we're trying to _change_ an existent situation, not document evil.

Apopas

05-24-2009, 08:44 AM

True. He ignores real arguments and talks about thing he doesn't have even idea. It's not even worth to continue this thread, because winboys messed it too much. One time they talk about compatibility with old programs, then about completely different things and now you can read about wine. It's second Yotambien approach to proof windows is better without giving arguments. What I learned from his posts is he has many complexes. Probably someone told him Windows and Macos are bad. The best thing is their nonsenses have no reflection in reality. However, maybe it's desperate try to cure wounded ego?
No complexes my friend. That's a hard word to tell for someone you know only through forums. It's easy to misunderstand someone by what he writes through distance since maybe he is not good at wrting or even he misunderstood you in first place.
The obvious imo is that he has different filosophy. Probably open source and the freedom to share doesn't meen too much for him or are very low in his priorities since he is so eager to buy and defend proprietary code, while for the most of us the very essence of a program's quality is how much freedom it carries in its package.
Anyway, filosophies are built on arguments and vary rarely eventuate to agreements. So I don't see any positive reason for anyone to continue this thread rather than argue till eternity.

kraftman

05-24-2009, 09:15 AM

No complexes my friend. That's a hard word to tell for someone you know only through forums. It's easy to misunderstand someone by what he writes through distance since maybe he is not good at wrting or even he misunderstood you in first place.
The obvious imo is that he has different filosophy. Probably open source and the freedom to share doesn't meen too much for him or are very low in his priorities since he is so eager to buy and defend proprietary code, while for the most of us the very essence of a program's quality is how much freedom it carries in its package.
Anyway, filosophies are built on arguments and vary rarely eventuate to agreements. So I don't see any positive reason for anyone to continue this thread rather than argue till eternity.

Well said :) I was thinking about complexes related to operating systems and their licenses. It's hard to imagine for some people they can have something better for free or they just don't know it. About PDF viewer, Okular is the best out there, but it's only my humble opinion :>

P.S. Philosophy - that's a point!

neuron

05-24-2009, 09:49 AM

Read the WineHQ list. I can quite literally list 100's of apps that do not work in any shape or function ranging from Win 3.1 titles to todays latest.

Great argument, I can list 100's of windows apps that dont work in any shape or form on windows...

I work at a place that deals with support for a wide array of server systems (although it's mostly windows/unix/linux systems), and I run into windows not being compatible with windows all the time.

deanjo

05-24-2009, 09:58 AM

Great argument, I can list 100's of windows apps that dont work in any shape or form on windows...

I work at a place that deals with support for a wide array of server systems (although it's mostly windows/unix/linux systems), and I run into windows not being compatible with windows all the time.

Do you really want to seriously compare windows apps compatibility in windows to windows apps in wine?

SolidSteel144

05-24-2009, 11:02 AM

At the end of the day, Wine is just translating native Windows applications. That can only get us so far, we need native software!

neuron

05-24-2009, 11:16 AM

Do you really want to seriously compare windows apps compatibility in windows to windows apps in wine?

Now your putting words into my mouth, what I'm saying is that finding software that isn't working properly isn't hard, and it isn't proof of anything.

deanjo

05-24-2009, 12:25 PM

Now your putting words into my mouth, what I'm saying is that finding software that isn't working properly isn't hard, and it isn't proof of anything.

Did you or did you not say:

May have been true years ago, however your talking about running old windows programs he's run for years, and wine works perfectly well for that scenario and is rock stable. Hell some software run faster under wine than under windows (I remember I got higher fps running Q3 under wine than in windows).

neuron

05-24-2009, 02:52 PM

Did you or did you not say:

Absolutely, most old windows programs will run perfectly, I did not however say all old windows programs will run perfectly.

And I imagine a lot of the same programs would fail on newer versions of windows aswell, anything not following standards properly/misusing api to produce a specific result etc.

Rock stable does not mean "will run program X that intentionally misused api on windows X to skip some checks to improve performance"... It was never WINE's mission to run windows software with better windows backwards compatibility than windows itself.

Apopas

05-24-2009, 04:11 PM

About PDF viewer, Okular is the best out there, but it's only my humble opinion :>
It rocks yeah, but as a GNOME user I prefer Evince :)

yotambien

05-24-2009, 07:35 PM

Linux has had better support for pdf than windows has for years, windows still requires custom software to load one, linux has both had this built in, and ability to export to pdf in most software for years, we have no need for acrobat reader...

...wtf is your problem? This is pure trolling, windows requires software to read and write pdf, a lot of linux applications have write capability, and every distro out there comes with a reader which works perfectly fine.

Why the hell evince sucks? Pdf viewers are used to read pdf files. Fast and plainly. Fullscreen, next, previous, better fit etc... I can't really see why to install 50 MB just to read pdfs? Hell even in windows machines a lot of guys don't use acrobat reader

Only until recently, one of the high priority projects of the Free Software Foundation was GNU PDF. That's quite a contradiction with your 'better support for years' mythological truth. Fortunately, the FSF people don't lack the capacity of self-criticism and analysis that you cheerfully toss around. My problem is that knee-jerk replies like this, where you state nonsense like 'built-in linux ability to export pdf files' or 'windows requires software to read and write pdfs' make me wonder whether you actually have _something_ to say. That Acroread 'piece of crap' thing renders the text better than xpdf, Kpdf, Evince or Okular (I tried them all, thankyouverymuch), is faster at doing it, more flexible (try it and look at the options, or try to disable sub-pixel smoothing in Kpdf, for instance), and doesn't _miserably_ choke when loading BIG pdf files with high (as in high) resolution images. Filling pdf forms in linux was one of those exotic things people would try to do with pdftk or loading the file in Inscape, Gimp or Scribus, adding some text and exporting back, or some other braindead solution. Acroread can do this. In all fairness, it seems that Okular and latest versions of Evince have catched up with this, which IS good. There is, of course, a long way to what Adobe Pro can do, and unfortunately there's not a Linux version as of yet--so I have to do shit with, say, pdftk, to achive the simplest things. For a change, you could start realizing that there's a world beyond what you know that have some needs about which you may not have a clue.

You say that fortunately adobe ported it to Linux, but isn't that what you finally want? To see every stupid program to be ported to Linux? But I can see what's your major problem finally. Skype is good because the rest of the world uses it. Ekiga is a piece of crap because is used only by a few Linux geeks so is Linux. Since windows are used by 90% then they are the best. Seriously sir I liked to argue with you but you dissapointed me with your last statement!

No, you have not got my point, and by a long shot. But I'll make it again because you look like a nice, honest guy. My point is that I want to have high quality applications and drivers available in my OS of choice--and why it is my choice I don't feel it's relevant. I named those two cases, pdf handling and Skype(*), as two examples of what closed source solutions can bring in terms of quality to this platform. You may disagree about the quality difference between Acroread/whatever and Skype/whatever. But, however great an affinity you have for open source applications and ideals, I want to believe that, at least, you don't really consider those two programs to be 'a piece of crap' in terms of how good they are at what they intent to. Now, skip all the trash and go back some pages in the thread; remember what was being said about stable ABI or not? There you have it, so again it goes: I want companies to consider Linux seriously and make their products available to this platform. I want the _enormous_ gap between Windows and Linux in terms of existing software to narrow. I think Wine is NOT a solution in any conceivable way--leave alone that it doesn't actually deliver--and what is needed, open source or otherwise, are native applications. So let's complete the chain: I also happen to believe that the fact that the Linux kernel (and distributions) appear to always be a moving target makes it harder for anybody to create and maintain code for this platform.

Now, although quite generous, there's a limit to the amount of shit I'm ready to get from anybody. I have, directly or indirectly, been called stupid, idiot, troll, accussed of having some sort of agenda to promote god knows what and I apparently even have some psychological problems. I want to believe that this will stop now and here.

(*) If you asked me, I'd tell you that using a closed source protocol for something as inherently open as communication between people is quite a contradiction and a rather bad idea. And maybe you wouldn't expect that from a 'Windows troll'. The thing is that everybody and their cats, be it for lack of concentration, reading skills, capacity or pure intellectual dishonesty and propensity to self-deceit, seem ready to jump to conclusions without thinking for a couple of seconds before vomiting their junk all over the rest of us.

L33F3R

05-24-2009, 07:42 PM

(*) If you asked me, I'd tell you that using a closed source protocol for something as inherently open as communication between people is quite a contradiction and a rather bad idea. And maybe you wouldn't expect that from a 'Windows troll'. The thing is that everybody and their cats, be it for lack of concentration, reading skills, capacity or pure intellectual dishonesty and propensity to self-deceit, seem ready to jump to conclusions without thinking for a couple of seconds before vomiting their junk all over the rest of us.

Amen

next time i go to court, your my representation :D

kraftman

05-25-2009, 02:15 AM

@Yotambien

Now, although quite generous, there's a limit to the amount of shit I'm ready to get from anybody. I have, directly or indirectly, been called stupid, idiot, troll, accussed of having some sort of agenda to promote god knows what and I apparently even have some psychological problems. I want to believe that this will stop now and here.Actually, you gave a lot of bull here and some idiotic examples, so this childish trick won't make look smarter. Stop writing nonsenses and then it will stop.

P.S. There must be some reasons why people call you that.

The thing is that everybody and their cats, be it for lack of concentration, reading skills, capacity or pure intellectual dishonesty and propensity to self-deceit, seem ready to jump to conclusions without thinking for a couple of seconds before vomiting their junk all over the rest of us.

It concerns you and some of your follower as well.

susikala

05-25-2009, 04:37 AM

Well, one'd have to sum up that whole Windows-is-better preaching as at least minor trolling, since this is a Linux BBS, after all. :)

Apopas

05-25-2009, 12:32 PM

No, you have not got my point, and by a long shot. But I'll make it again because you look like a nice, honest guy. My point is that I want to have high quality applications and drivers available in my OS of choice--and why it is my choice I don't feel it's relevant. I named those two cases, pdf handling and Skype(*), as two examples of what closed source solutions can bring in terms of quality to this platform. You may disagree about the quality difference between Acroread/whatever and Skype/whatever. But, however great an affinity you have for open source applications and ideals, I want to believe that, at least, you don't really consider those two programs to be 'a piece of crap' in terms of how good they are at what they intent to. Now, skip all the trash and go back some pages in the thread; remember what was being said about stable ABI or not? There you have it, so again it goes: I want companies to consider Linux seriously and make their products available to this platform. I want the _enormous_ gap between Windows and Linux in terms of existing software to narrow. I think Wine is NOT a solution in any conceivable way--leave alone that it doesn't actually deliver--and what is needed, open source or otherwise, are native applications. So let's complete the chain: I also happen to believe that the fact that the Linux kernel (and distributions) appear to always be a moving target makes it harder for anybody to create and maintain code for this platform.
We are going to disagree again mate about stabl;e ABI and such. A stable ABI and the major import of every proprietary application (despite its quality) will make Linux a bit more free version of Windows in my opinion but no reason to speak again for this. We'll never agree. But you must admit that your phrase The rest of the world uses something else. can be misunderstood even by the smartest ones.

If you asked me, I'd tell you that using a closed source protocol for something as inherently open as communication between people is quite a contradiction and a rather bad idea. And maybe you wouldn't expect that from a 'Windows troll'.
Then why use Skype? Despite its features is not an application someone needs for a living! like photoshop or 3dSmax. Since the inherently attribute (that's the corect word?) of communication, as you said, is so important then why to not "sacrifice" these more options and use open source protocols?

Apopas

05-25-2009, 12:39 PM

That Acroread 'piece of crap' thing renders the text better than xpdf, Kpdf, Evince or Okular (I tried them all, thankyouverymuch), is faster at doing it, more flexible (try it and look at the options, or try to disable sub-pixel smoothing in Kpdf, for instance), and doesn't _miserably_ choke when loading BIG pdf files with high (as in high) resolution images. Filling pdf forms in linux was one of those exotic things people would try to do with pdftk or loading the file in Inscape, Gimp or Scribus, adding some text and exporting back, or some other braindead solution. Acroread can do this. In all fairness, it seems that Okular and latest versions of Evince have catched up with this, which IS good. There is, of course, a long way to what Adobe Pro can do, and unfortunately there's not a Linux version as of yet--so I have to do shit with, say, pdftk, to achive the simplest things. For a change, you could start realizing that there's a world beyond what you know that have some needs about which you may not have a clue.

Well I can hardly see this quality of Acrobat's and the crapiness of the other programs! I couldn't stand this thing at all so download and installed Adobe's software and made a comparison with Evince (unfortunately i can't install Okular which is even better imo because I'll need to compile the whole KDE)!

If you don't mind to spend 10 minutes from your life check these :D

Well, here is some kind of comparison I did between the last versions of Evince and Acrobat Reader. I did this to prove that Evince doesn't suck and chocks the system with big files. as some guys believe and its a reliable, fast and comfortable application for everyday use. I used a big enough pdf file with a lot of text and high quality pictures.

keep in mind these:
a) My proccessor is a 5 years old athlon 64 one. From the first 64 bit proccessors that were born. I believe In a newer CPU things would run much smoothly and hardly any difference will be noticeable.
b) The performance decreased dramatically because of the recording program which ate a lot of my cpu and enough memory. In reality these two programs perform much better (I didn't notice any big difference, actually). Consider this as if I had Firefox and media player up as I use to do.
c) My Gnome Desktop was running apps I run always like (compiz, avant, cairo clock, yarssr etc). I didn't disable them because I wanted the benchmark to belong in the real world since I read pdfs and do every job with that kind of stuff up and running.
d) Each test took place just after a system's full restart. I didn't want to keep anything in memory etc... (look the uptime on the bottom of gkrellm)
e) Some artifacts and weird shadows are just record's problem.

Here are the videos, almost 7 mins in length both and 50 MB large.

http://rapidshare.com/files/237121603/evince_vs_acroread.7z.html

CONCLUSIONS:
1) It seems that under heavy load, Evince performs better. Especially in pages from 32 and above this is more obvious. Even in pages that seems to need more time to be loaded it loads them correctly while Acrobat Reader seems to load them instantly but needs a second "check" to display them correctly.
2) Evince was more responsive. Notice that the number of the page on the top is displayed simultanesouly with the page, while in Acrobat Reader first you see the number to change and then the page to be displayed. That means you click for the next page and Acrobat looks as if needs few milliseconds more to understand what's going on.
3) The amount of RAM Evince needed was lesser than Adobe's software by 25% and needed lees time to run.
4) The text and image rendering was perfect and identical in both applications.
5) Evince's package was 980 KB and it needed just 3.5 MB for installation. ( I admit it needs poppler libraries for pdf support but they are just few KB as well and already installed with Gimp)
6) Acrobat on the other hand needed 143.6 MB for installation but asked for xulrunner-bin to be installed as well which was 40.8 MB. So the total amount of installation was 184.3 MB! (As a 32 bit application it needed even more libraries to work under a 64 bit system).
7) Acrobat Reader had many more options than Evince. But its subjective if the casual user really needs them. It reminded me when I go to the supermarket and then I discover that I need things I never needed till then... (just personal opinion I repeat).
The most important feature I didn't find in Acrobat Reader was support of my native language.
8) And last, Acrobat Reader was like a "foreign body" with the rest of my desktop.

PS: Seriously even if AR was opensource I wouldn't use that thing...

yotambien

05-25-2009, 05:47 PM

Hey, nice videos.

I'm afraid that I'll have to stand by what I said, though, after checking Evince, Kpdf and Okular again. You made me think for a second that things had actually improved since the last time.

I installed Okular (4.4.2-2) and Evince (2.26.1-2) from Debian sid. Kpdf and xpdf were already installed.

So let's try them out. First Okular. Type okular in the terminal...After some abnormal unresponsiveness I notice that there are already something like 30 informative error lines. After a while, the program comes out in a half-assed way, and a nice error window complaining about D-bus greets me. I click 'OK'. I try to browse my home directory and, after several seconds, the very same window gives me the very same information. I click 'OK'. No files or folders appear in the browser window so I type the location of the file I want to open. 'Enter'...[wait]..."Could not open file:///blablabla.pdf". I click 'OK'. At this point something like 4-7 different error messages in the terminal are competing with each other for the last position at the bottom part of the screen. Out of some of those, it seems that some KDE component cannot connect to DBUS or some utter bollocking like that. I decide to risk my life and run Okular as root, to see how it goes. Voila, it's happier now. It seems that, after all, I will be able to, at least, _run_ the bloody program. No, I'm not making shit up.

So let's do some seriou pdf'ing. How about an A0 size (841x1189 mm) poster with a bunch of embedded high resolution images (up to 2740x1360)? That surely will stretch the viewers a bit, won't it? There we go. All of them, Acroread included, struggle with files like this, but xpdf and Kpdf get the crown at the lamest ones, I won't waste any comments with those. Evince uses a curious strategy: it loads the whole page in low resolution mode (quick, but useless) and then proceeds to load the real thing, which is what we actually wanted in the first place, thanks. This takes ages. Once loaded, though, it goes lightning fast--as long as you don't zoom in/out again, of course. Similar thing with Okular. It takes fucking ages to respond when changing the zoom level, and once it loads the whole thing is instantaneous. Acroread, on the other hand, loads the different elements of the file at different pace, no screen redraw takes longer than 2 seconds, and it doesn't load the whole stuff at any time--so it doesn't respond faster after you wait at the same magnification. The most productive of the lot is Acroread, I'm afraid. Nobody wants to experience 10-20 seconds freeze continuously when working with files that you can't display entirely in one single page.

Taking a look at what each program has to offer, Evince comes as the typical braindead Gnome product. Basically, there is no single set of options you can touch: zero, nothing; to be honest, I didn't remember it to be so stupidly lame. Okular comes across as a more ambicious piece of software, in the usual KDE fashion. Still, something like choosing the font rendering method is simply absent. Acroread, as oppossed to them, is a fully featured serious application that has more tools, options and plugins than you thought existed, from tabbed display ala Firefox and selective rendering options for images/text, to online collaborative pdf sharing and creation.

The last bit, and most hilarious one--although seeing Okular breaking had no price--is the rendering. This was a fucking joke. You won't believe me either when I say that this was just the second (2nd) document I tried (being the 1st the poster), and not something chosen on purpose, but anyway...Basically, neither Evince nor Okular used the RIGHT FONTS for it, and the result, of course, is the saddest thing I found in a good while. No, you don't have to believe me, I've got a nice screenshot (http://www.4shared.com/file/107758809/61a7f4e6/2009-05-25-220227_1096x703_scrot.html). Left: Acroread; middle: Okular; right: Evince. The zoom level is the most approximate I could get. If Okular didn't have its zoom fucked up (it probably wasn't aware of the dpi settings of my system) I could use the exact equivalent (Evince got it right). But who cares, at this point? Now look at that image and tell me with a straight face that the rendering is 'identical' and 'perfect' amongst Acroread and the other piles of crap. Again, I could only make the comparison activating sub-pixel smoothing in Acroread since the others don't have the option. Apparently the developers have kindly decided what's best for me beforehand and made sure I won't make a mistake by digging through the options. So long for freedom of choice. Repeating the test with a document with which Okular and Evince didn't have some pathological missunderstanding produced what I remembered; their rendering quality is sub-optimal compared to Acroread--but without getting to the aforementioned gore levels. Between the two, Evince has the lead being able to render small fonts in a more legible way than Okular, as well as spacing the letters in a more homogenous and aesthetically pleasant way.

I have wasted enough time with all of you. Having to prove each and every thing I say--especially the things I know because I work with this shit everyday--is boring, tiring, and doesn't get me (or you) anywhere. Use what the hell you want to use and don't ever break your bubble. OSS FTW.

Apopas

05-25-2009, 07:11 PM

Now I have to see where the hell I did mistake and the things work for me while not for you or I'll just accept that I'm paranoid and I have edited my videos with Adobe Premiere to look in the way I want to...

I have wasted enough time with all of you. Having to prove each and every thing I say--especially the things I know because I work with this shit everyday--is boring, tiring, and doesn't get me (or you) anywhere. Use what the hell you want to use and don't ever break your bubble. OSS FTW.
Now, after what you're saying I'm going ofcourse to begin use Acrobat since it seems you see things I don't but I should. And who knows, maybe one day I'll be so smart and brave to break, finally, my bubble and enter totally to that beautiful world of proprietary, where no bubbles and other limits exist, everything works as it should and where people have the freedom to buy high quality and useful projects...

kraftman

05-26-2009, 05:53 AM

@Yotambien

I have wasted enough time with all of you. Having to prove each and every thing I say--especially the things I know because I work with this shit everyday--is boring, tiring, and doesn't get me (or you) anywhere. Use what the hell you want to use and don't ever break your bubble. OSS FTW.Hehe, thanks for confirming why people called you that. You're just stupid troll. You consider apps should behave and look exactly as you want and you can't or don't want to understand other people have some different expectations. I don't know what you did to make such problems. It's as simple as clicking Okular icon in K menu and it works without problems. After reading first part of your post I had no doubt (phew, after reading your first post) you're an idiot. You wasted our time and about bubble. I won't use closed crap. Usually it's closed, because code is a mess, there are patents violations or some spying things and very serious security bugs (when comes to graphic drivers situation is different). You're on the second place on my morons list. Thanks.

You mentioned before about being gently Yotambien 21yo... hypocrite.