Best bang for buck with open source drivers.

[duby229]

Hey guys, I currently have an x1950pro that has been locking up within 5 minutes of gameplay. It happens in both Windows and Linux, so I think it is a physical hardware problem.

I need to know what the best "bang for buck" card is available right now that either 1: currently has open source drivers, or 2: will very freakin soon have open source drivers.

I was looking at one of these cards here...

ASUS Radeon HD 4770 EAH4770/HTDI/512MD5 Video Card - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121317) (EDIT: This card just went out of stock while I was writing this post.)
OR
HIS Hightech Radeon HD 4850 H485FN512P Video Card - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161259)
OR
SAPPHIRE Radeon HD 4830 100265HDMI Video Card - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102822)

EDIT: OR

SAPPHIRE Radeon HD 3870 100225L Video Card - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102719)

From benches that I've seen the 4850 should be just a little bit faster than the 4770. What do you guys think? Is there anything else I should be looking at instead? The idea is to stay as close to 100 bucks as possible. Is there anything out there at this price range that also includes some memory cooling? Also I've looked into what exactly the difference between 512MB, and 1GB does for these cards and the truth is not much. Within 3% on some benches while most are essentially tied. So no need to worry about memory amount, I'm sure the benches speak for themselves.

Also what is the benefit of going with a 4000 series? Would a 3000 serires at a better price be a better idea?

[Melcar]

Maybe it's simply a cooling issue? Have you checked the fan on the card?
The best bang for the buck card out now is the HD4850. The HD4770 is out of stock nearly everywhere and I even heard rumors of it being discontinued. The HD4830 is the best card you can get in the sub $100 range right now, but to be honest, I would stretch my dollar a bit more for the HD4850. There is no reason to go for the HD3870 since even the HD4830 is faster and both series of cards have similar driver support in Linux. Memory wise, 512MB is good for most things, but I would consider 1GB if running games at a res. bigger than 1680x1050.
As for driver support, I honestly wouldn't expect anything from the open source front until at least year's end. The HD4K series has good 2D and video playback support with both open drivers, but 3D is still a ways off. If you want the most out of your new card you're going to have to stick with fglrx for the time being.

[RealNC]

Too bad you can't buy something with Intel graphics on it for desktops, because those have the best open source drivers.

Right now I'd say forget open source and buy the cheapest NVidia card you can get. When AMD's open drivers get to something that's actually usable, you can buy an AMD then.

[duby229]

Maybe it's simply a cooling issue? Have you checked the fan on the card?
The best bang for the buck card out now is the HD4850. The HD4770 is out of stock nearly everywhere and I even heard rumors of it being discontinued. The HD4830 is the best card you can get in the sub $100 range right now, but to be honest, I would stretch my dollar a bit more for the HD4850. There is no reason to go for the HD3870 since even the HD4830 is faster and both series of cards have similar driver support in Linux. Memory wise, 512MB is good for most things, but I would consider 1GB if running games at a res. bigger than 1680x1050.
As for driver support, I honestly wouldn't expect anything from the open source front until at least year's end. The HD4K series has good 2D and video playback support with both open drivers, but 3D is still a ways off. If you want the most out of your new card you're going to have to stick with fglrx for the time being.

Yep, I checked the fan. Reseated the heatsink with fresh arctic silver. Didnt seem to make a difference. I think I'll stick with the 4850 then. As far as driver support, I'd really like 3d support, but I can certainly wait for it until it is ready. I do most of my gaming in Windows anyways, but you now when your working and you need a breather, so you fire up an FPS and frag somebody a bunch of times. I'll definitely miss that.

[duby229]

Too bad you can't buy something with Intel graphics on it for desktops, because those have the best open source drivers.

Right now I'd say forget open source and buy the cheapest NVidia card you can get. When AMD's open drivers get to something that's actually usable, you can buy an AMD then.

I'll be completely sure to stay 100% away from any and every closed driver. That'll never happen ever. No offense it's just that since everything else in the linux world is open source, there shouldnt be any exceptions ever. Personally I think that there should be some kind of flag that identifies closed source code and then makes it impossible for it to execute. Something like the NX bit except for use in blocking closed source code. I think the same kind of technology that identifies viral code could be adapted to identify closed code as well...

[RealNC]

lol.. .

[adamk]

Unfortunately the x1950 is the best card with open source 3D drivers at the moment. I'm not sure anyone can guarantee that newer ATI GPUs will have open source 3D drivers "very freakin soon".

Adam

[L33F3R]

honestly why must they be open source? Would you rather buy a half finished blender (not blender.org you nerds :p) with detailed information on the parts currently installed, Or do you want a blender that will actually work? Most people in the real world would vote for number 2. Don't get me wrong lots of open source stuff is good but when it comes to hardware drivers what your calling for is socialism.

Its a wonder if Linux will ever be a gaming platform when half of its users are so stupid they use hardware drivers that dont actually work. Sounds harsh but its the honest truth. Unless I can see an open source driver compete with the nvidia binary... I'll see the day. :rolleyes:

not the near future at least. :p

[curaga]

Unless the 4850 severely drops in price, 4770 beats it in bang-for-buck (even more in bang-for-watt). The delays and out-of-stock you are seeing is because TMSC has difficulties with the 40nm lines, the yield is not great yet.

[kraftman]

Its a wonder if Linux will ever be a gaming platform when half of its users are so stupid they use hardware drivers that dont actually work. Sounds harsh but its the honest truth. Unless I can see an open source driver compete with the nvidia binary... I'll see the day. :rolleyes:

not the near future at least. :p

Those "half of stupid users" probably don't play games :> I personally prefer open source graphic drivers, because when comes to 2D and stability they're usually far better then binary blobs.

@duby229

If I would have working Ati x1950pro card I wouldn't change it to anything else right now. It beats many of newer radeons.

[L33F3R]

I personally prefer open source graphic drivers, because when comes to 2D and stability they're usually far better then binary blobs.

now that makes a fair bit of sense.:)

[legume]

Hey guys, I currently have an x1950pro that has been locking up within 5 minutes of gameplay. It happens in both Windows and Linux, so I think it is a physical hardware problem.


You'll need a decent/powerful PSU for the newer cards. If your existing PSU is low wattage/cheap then I suppose it could be the cause of your 1950 problems.

[duby229]

honestly why must they be open source? Would you rather buy a half finished blender (not blender.org you nerds :p) with detailed information on the parts currently installed, Or do you want a blender that will actually work? Most people in the real world would vote for number 2. Don't get me wrong lots of open source stuff is good but when it comes to hardware drivers what your calling for is socialism.

Its a wonder if Linux will ever be a gaming platform when half of its users are so stupid they use hardware drivers that dont actually work. Sounds harsh but its the honest truth. Unless I can see an open source driver compete with the nvidia binary... I'll see the day. :rolleyes:

not the near future at least. :p

For me it's just preference. I mean most people wont care if the driver is closed or open, but just like with any community there are people who are more educated in one field or another. I happen to know that closed drivers actually inhibit innovation, and that they use the infrastructure that was developed for open drivers without actually contributing to the infrastructure (which by the way is a GPL violation)

It's a moral obligation for me.... I can tell you for certain that -ati is a whole lot more stable than nVidias blob. It may not have the full range of OpenGL functions supported yet, but it works a hell of a lot better then nVidias blob.

[duby229]

You'll need a decent/powerful PSU for the newer cards. If your existing PSU is low wattage/cheap then I suppose it could be the cause of your 1950 problems.

That's a good point. I've been running this video card off of a Thermaltake 460W supply for about 2 years now, and these problems only started about 1 week ago. Lets say I go with a 4850, what power supply do you think will be adequate to feed it?

[curaga]

Your current PSU actually might be enough; AMD says
450 Watt or greater power supply with 75 Watt 6-pin PCI Express® power connector recommended (550 Watt and two 6-pin connectors for ATI CrossFireX™ technology in dual mode)

Some reviews measured that a standard clock 4850 uses 110W when at full power.

[nanonyme]

and that they use the infrastructure that was developed for open drivers without actually contributing to the infrastructure (which by the way is a GPL violation)Well, the actually ugly part of it is that they replace a lot of the infrastucture to make it suit their needs better. Just read of libGL.so's and so to find out what's been going on. :(
Imo it's less bad if you do closed and keep the open stuff intact than that you break compatibility with the open stuff on installation. (Of course, someone could claim that this is due to a design flaw in the opensource infrastructure)

[adamk]

For me it's just preference. I mean most people wont care if the driver is closed or open, but just like with any community there are people who are more educated in one field or another. I happen to know that closed drivers actually inhibit innovation, and that they use the infrastructure that was developed for open drivers without actually contributing to the infrastructure (which by the way is a GPL violation)


While I do mostly agree with your sentiment, most of the direct rendering infrastrcuture is actually under the X11 license, and not the GPL. I believe that only the kernel drivers are actually GPLed, and only on linux.

So not contributing changes back to the DRI is not likely a GPL violation (linking closed source drivers to the linux kernel, on the other hand, is another issue entirely).

Adam

[tball]

For anyone who prefer closed source over open source, should consider this:

What if you wifi-, sound, networkcard was closed source?
1. Not so funny when new kernel arrives.
2. The 'works out of the box' concept will be invalid, because you have to download your drivers from the net (Like m$).
3. Alot of more reasons.

But I will give you, that fglrx / nvidia blob is pretty good drivers, UNTIL the open drivers for ati is finished :) But for the sake of GNU/Linux, choose the open source drivers, because openess is what linux is about. I like linux, when it boots up on almost every computer, without having to download any binary driver. Let that happen to the open source gfx world also.

EDIT:
If you like your binary blob, go for windows. Closed drivers is what windows is good for.

[frische]

1. somehow the nvidia blob works with every new solaris kernel
2. and they even ship it on the livecd
3. ...damn

[L33F3R]

For anyone who prefer closed source over open source, should consider this:

What if you wifi-, sound, networkcard was closed source?
1. Not so funny when new kernel arrives.
2. The 'works out of the box' concept will be invalid, because you have to download your drivers from the net (Like m$).
3. Alot of more reasons.

But I will give you, that fglrx / nvidia blob is pretty good drivers, UNTIL the open drivers for ati is finished :) But for the sake of GNU/Linux, choose the open source drivers, because openess is what linux is about. I like linux, when it boots up on almost every computer, without having to download any binary driver. Let that happen to the open source gfx world also.

EDIT:
If you like your binary blob, go for windows. Closed drivers is what windows is good for.

1. I dont worry about this as I only update my kernel when an updated distro is out (6 months). My distribution takes care of this and I donate to my distribution as gratitude.

Whether or not my drivers are open source is irrelevant to me because if they didn't work I wouldn't buy their products next time around. It is a poor business model to break compatibility. Some products only have support on linux through community means. my defence is that people shouldn't even be supporting a hardware platform that doesn't support us. AMD is one example of a company that has emerging support.:)

2. I dont mind downloading my drivers from the internet. On M$ it takes me a whopping 2 minutes maximum per driver. If 2 minutes of web-surfing is difficult then the internet is not for you. It takes the same amount of time to save such drivers on a disk or flash drive.

As far as network card drivers are concerned it would be stupid to not have a linux driver as linux controls so much of the internet. Just about any mobo could be used for a server solution at any time as seen in todays modern hosting companies (you can get celerons, pentiums, phenoms even).

3. ill write these up for you :p
openness is what linux is about:

The perception of linux varies between person to person. For some people its freedom and others its simply an alternative. However what its about and what its intention is totally different. To me linux is a platform that doesnt crash 2 days after install and runs fast. Do you think the Chinese government funds red flag linux because its "freedom" software?

Dont get me wrong I love open source, but i also like quality. If the drivers were equal in quality as far as my uses were concerned:
OSS>Proprietary any day.:D

[tball]

I respect your arguments.

But please... You wouldn't be using linux as you did today if every single driver where closed. Because that would make linux windows. Yup we might have a better kernel than windows, but all the properitary stuff we put on that kernel, would make it as unstable as windows.

The fast moving linux model just isn't ideal for proprietary blobs.

But lets stop ruining this thread. I just think amd's open source linux model of support is better than nvidia's.

[Ant P.]

Personally I think that there should be some kind of flag that identifies closed source code and then makes it impossible for it to execute.

There already is. Both the nvidia and fglrx blobs go to great lengths to circumvent it. One (or more) of the kernel devs threatened legal action over them doing it, IIRC.

[mirv]

The fast moving linux model just isn't ideal for proprietary blobs.


I second that. All political reasons aside, practical reasons make open source drivers a more suitable option for linux.

[L33F3R]

for open source drivers x1950 is a good card.

maybe its just me, who has never had a problem with a broken blob. Please explain to me how often the Nvidia driver breaks, especially when its updated as often as it is.

[Kano]

It is so good that you only can use oss driver and fgrlx up to 9-3. If you buy that you must be extra stupid.

[adamk]

It is so good that you only can use oss driver and fgrlx up to 9-3. If you buy that you must be extra stupid.

Wow, that's rude. You really are quite an ass, sometimes.

If you can find an x1950 at a reasonable price, it is a good purchase if you want open source drivers, which is exactly what the original poster wanted.

If you have such problems with the open source drivers, feel free to not use them, but don't be such a jerk and call other people stupid because they use them.

Adam

[Kano]

If you want to play a more demanding game you currently NEED fglrx. If you want to use a newer distro with Xserver 1.6 you already lost with your purchase. If you want to play only games which are absolutely not demanding and you do not wan to use wine, a much cheaper card would be enough.

[Melcar]

If he can get a x1950xt for less than $30, that would be a deal. Besides, who needs WINE for games? It never works. If you really want to play Windows games, make yourself an extra Windows partition.

[L33F3R]

If he can get a x1950xt for less than $30, that would be a deal. Besides, who needs WINE for games? It never works. If you really want to play Windows games, make yourself an extra Windows partition.

wine works for me out of the box when it comes to most of my games. eg. stronghold crusader or GTA:SA. Infact I have a very good success rate with wine for titles over 2 years old.

That said. I use the dreaded proprietary nvidia driver.:rolleyes:

[Melcar]

"It works for me" fallacy. Fact is that it doesn't work for many other titles. Most of the time you have to get creative and do hacks to WINE for a game to even install or run, and the ones that do run do so at reduced performance/quality. Yeah, my favorite games work fine, but many others on my library do not; and it's not a driver issue because the games don't even install properly to play.
WINE as a gaming solution is far from optimal. Some games work, and if yours happens to be one of them then fine. But for high end gaming and running the latest AAA Windows titles, just bite the bullet and set up a small Windows partition.

[L33F3R]

noone said wine was a gaming solution. When i say works i mean has an enjoyable framerate with minimal problems. Im no hardcore gamer anymore so I dont feel its worth my time to restart every time I want to play a small game. With the binary driver i have the option to use wine, with the open source driver i dont. The binary driver has given 'ME" more freedom dispite being closed source.

One good thing about linux is choice. You want an open source driver to run fast 2D and to aid in kernel upgrades, thats cool. I want 3D, so i pick the closed source. Its fine to say wine hinders linux porting projects but to say its garbage in the middle of a debate about driver performance is in itself a fallacy.

[duby229]

If he can get a x1950xt for less than $30, that would be a deal. Besides, who needs WINE for games? It never works. If you really want to play Windows games, make yourself an extra Windows partition.

That's my sentiment exactly, though I have to admit there is a slight problem with this thinking. We still need to support gaming on linux. However the best way to do that is to buy games that will be counted as a linux sale. Playing a video game in wine is not going to do that.

[duby229]

noone said wine was a gaming solution. When i say works i mean has an enjoyable framerate with minimal problems. Im no hardcore gamer anymore so I dont feel its worth my time to restart every time I want to play a small game. With the binary driver i have the option to use wine, with the open source driver i dont. The binary driver has given 'ME" more freedom dispite being closed source.

One good thing about linux is choice. You want an open source driver to run fast 2D and to aid in kernel upgrades, thats cool. I want 3D, so i pick the closed source. Its fine to say wine hinders linux porting projects but to say its garbage in the middle of a debate about driver performance is in itself a fallacy.

I have to admit that I believe that wines utter dependence on the behavior exhibited by nvidia blob is indeed a design flaw. It's one thing to say that wine works well with nvidias driver, its something totally different and wrong to say that it is because of the driver..

[Melcar]

That's my sentiment exactly, though I have to admit there is a slight problem with this thinking. We still need to support gaming on linux. However the best way to do that is to buy games that will be counted as a linux sale. Playing a video game in wine is not going to do that.


I don't use WINE because of that. Don't even bother with new Windows titles. The bulk of my gaming is done with cross-platform games. However, a person is free to do whatever he wants with his PC (that's still true, right?), so if he wants to play Windows games then he may as well get the most out of his hardware and enjoy said game, and for that just getting Windows is the best solution.

[L33F3R]

We still need to support gaming on linux. However the best way to do that is to buy games that will be counted as a linux sale. Playing a video game in wine is not going to do that.

absolutely correct.

[duby229]

Check this out guys :D

SAPPHIRE Radeon HD 4850 100245HDMI Video Card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=14-102-824-03.jpg&Image=14-102-824-03.jpg%2c14-102-824-04.jpg%2c14-102-824-05.jpg%2c14-102-824-06.jpg%2c14-102-824-07.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Item=N82E16814102824R&Depa=99&Description=SAPPHIRE%20Radeon%20HD%204850%20100245 HDMI%20Video%20Card)

EDIT, click on the third image of the card

[L33F3R]

click on the third image of the card

lol very nice. major props for discovering this delicious easter egg. :p

[duby229]

edited. Sorry this post was not necessary

[nanonyme]

1. somehow the nvidia blob works with every new solaris kernel
2. and they even ship it on the livecd
3. ...damnAfaik due to license differences and the fact that Solaris kernel has a stable API for drivers. Solaris license has no issues whatsoever with closed drivers.

[kraftman]

Afaik due to license differences and the fact that Solaris kernel has a stable API for drivers. Solaris license has no issues whatsoever with closed drivers.

And, because Linux doesn't have (?) stable API nvidia drivers don't work with every release? :confused: Stable, when comes to Solaris can also mean old, crappy etc. in this case. There were Linux distros which provided nvidia binary blobs on live cd, but I don't know if this was license violation.

[nanonyme]

And, because Linux doesn't have (?) stable API nvidia drivers don't work with every license? :confused: Stable, when comes to Solaris can also mean old, crappy etc. in this case. There were Linux distros which provided nvidia binary blobs on live cd, but I don't know if this was license violation.No, rather the API changes rapidly so nVidia and ATi have to port their drivers to each and every individual Linux kernel version whereas with Solaris kernel I've gotten the impression the drivers just work with new kernel versions. I've been told this is a good thing because it discourages writing closed source kernel modules.
The license/freeness thing was related more to the the drivers not getting shipped with the LiveCD's. It might be though that I'm wrong on this second part and it's a deliberate choice that LiveCD's don't usually come with proprietary drivers.

[duby229]

And, because Linux doesn't have (?) stable API nvidia drivers don't work with every license? :confused: Stable, when comes to Solaris can also mean old, crappy etc. in this case. There were Linux distros which provided nvidia binary blobs on live cd, but I don't know if this was license violation.

The problem with so called "stable" APIs is that they may have unresolved bugs and design flaws go unfixed for years in the name of compatibility. I dont know of many APIs that are stable especially ones that have gone unchanged for years on end. I dont think "stable" is quite the proper term to use... Stable appears to be an antonym in this case...

[duby229]

No, rather the API changes rapidly so nVidia and ATi have to port their drivers to each and every individual Linux kernel version whereas with Solaris kernel I've gotten the impression the drivers just work with new kernel versions. I've been told this is a good thing because it discourages writing closed source kernel modules.
The license/freeness thing was related more to the the drivers not getting shipped with the LiveCD's. It might be though that I'm wrong on this second part and it's a deliberate choice that LiveCD's don't usually come with proprietary drivers.

I actually develop a LiveCD for my own personal use. I keep it updated on a regular basis, and with all of the tools and stuff I need to do my job. Even though I am the only person who will ever use this livecd I chose not to use the proprietary drivers simply because the open drivers are far more stable. See theres that word stable. Stable in this case actually means something valuable. Even though the code is highly experimental with a with a bunch of brand new activity in every part of the stack.... Even through all of this it is still more stable than the proprietary drivers. That says something important that we all need to pay attention to.

[nanonyme]

The problem with so called "stable" APIs is that they may have unresolved bugs and design flaws go unfixed for years in the name of compatibility. I dont know of many APIs that are stable especially ones that have gone unchanged for years on end. I dont think "stable" is quite the proper term to use... Stable appears to be an antonym in this case...Stable in this term pretty much means "does not change", I think. Stuff gets fixed behind the API, the API itself remains static. And yes, now you do know at least one. ;) Solaris. Anyway, this is getting plenty offtopic, I just meant to reply to a post that there's a good reason nVidia kernel modules work with new Solaris kernel versions always...

[duby229]

Stable in this term pretty much means "does not change", I think. Stuff gets fixed behind the API, the API itself remains static. And yes, now you do know at least one. ;) Solaris. Anyway, this is getting plenty offtopic, I just meant to reply to a post that there's a good reason nVidia kernel modules work with new Solaris kernel versions always...

I peice of junk that doesnt change is still a peice of junk. If you have an API with a function that is used by 20% of the applications that use that API, and later on find out that function can be used to exploit the system for something, in a so called stable API that exploit canot be fixed without breaking compatibility with 20% of the applications that use the API......

And sure I do now of a few stable APIs but the Solaris kernel definately is not counted as one of them. The thing that makes Solaris worthless for most people is its total utter lack of hardware support for some of the most common hardware on the planet. And even the few drivers it does have are mostly half-assed and broken on everything but the few revisions of the hardware that the developers had........

EDIT: See thats why I like the GPL. I can actually look a the code and modify it to work with my hardware. Granted I'm not a programmer, but many other people are. The point is that through the GPL I can help improve the driver for my needs. I think in the end provided that enough interest exists it is possible t5o take a craptastic driver and turn it into an awesome example of the power of open source. We are seeing that right now with the open source ATi drivers.I think it could have been done quicker if ATi had committed itself more fully than it has, but it is there own loss not mine.

[nanonyme]

If you have an API with a function that is used by 20% of the applications that use that API, and later on find out that function can be used to exploit the system for somethingAPI's can't really have exploits, API *implementations* do. You can still fix the implementation while keeping the API as it was. You don't remove the function, you just make it safe. Your reasoning sounds pretty much like FUD. (let alone that many times the myth that the API gets changed only to fix exploits stays a myth and it seems it in most cases it just gets changed because stuff gets marked unused by main kernel tree modules, then eventually it gets dropped out altogether even though there might have been tons of stuff outside the main kernel tree that used it that simply never got integrated in the kernel tree)

[einaudi]

in the argoment of stable api: http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/stable_api_nonsense.html

[King InuYasha]

I'll be completely sure to stay 100% away from any and every closed driver. That'll never happen ever. No offense it's just that since everything else in the linux world is open source, there shouldnt be any exceptions ever. Personally I think that there should be some kind of flag that identifies closed source code and then makes it impossible for it to execute. Something like the NX bit except for use in blocking closed source code. I think the same kind of technology that identifies viral code could be adapted to identify closed code as well...
There is a flag in the kernel to disable all non-GPL modules.

[duby229]

API's can't really have exploits, API *implementations* do. You can still fix the implementation while keeping the API as it was. You don't remove the function, you just make it safe. Your reasoning sounds pretty much like FUD. (let alone that many times the myth that the API gets changed only to fix exploits stays a myth and it seems it in most cases it just gets changed because stuff gets marked unused by main kernel tree modules, then eventually it gets dropped out altogether even though there might have been tons of stuff outside the main kernel tree that used it that simply never got integrated in the kernel tree)

I never said that is the only reason broken API's get dropped, but I certainly do believe it is an important one. Now some people call everything they hear that they dont agree with FUD. You may or may not be one of those people, but I cant quite explain why you attempted to call my argument FUD. Was I trying to make you fear what I was saying? Was I trying to make you uncertain of what I was saying? Was I trying to make you doubt what I was saying? See I dont understand how in your mind FUD applies. Why would I purposely make you fear or uncertain of or doubt what I was trying to say?

EDIT: And about dropping old and crusty API's that dont get used by in the kernel tree, That is a freakin fantastic idea. All I can say is that thank god I dont have a 16GB kernel.......... I hope and pray, yes pray, that Linux never develops its version of winsxs....

[nanonyme]

EDIT: And about dropping old and crusty API's that dont get used by in the kernel tree, That is a freakin fantastic idea. All I can say is that thank god I dont have a 16GB kernel.......... I hope and pray, yes pray, that Linux never develops its version of winsxs....Well, yes. Admittebly API has to be allowed to live and old versions of the API have to eventually be droppped. This simply because no sane person manages to predict every use scenario so the attempt for the API will be wrong. This has nothing to do with security holes though. ;) So yes, I admit API has to go through changes (after having doing some conversing Elsewhere (tm)) as part of its natural evolution to better cope with tomorrow's challenges which simply weren't thought of yesterday.
But yeah, I still stand by my claim that saying actual API changes due to security reasons makes no sense whatsoever. ;) (FUD as in the sense that the reasoning you gave is not only false but it was directed towards the emotional core of every admin: security. It's a bit like drawing child porn card in an arbitrary network filtering conversation, really :p Drawing them randomly when they're not actually related to the matter at hand is meant to be a conversation killer and an "I Win" card)

[duby229]

Well, yes. Admittebly API has to be allowed to live and old versions of the API have to eventually be droppped. This simply because no sane person manages to predict every use scenario so the attempt for the API will be wrong. This has nothing to do with security holes though. ;) So yes, I admit API has to go through changes (after having doing some conversing Elsewhere (tm)) as part of its natural evolution to better cope with tomorrow's challenges which simply weren't thought of yesterday.
But yeah, I still stand by my claim that saying actual API changes due to security reasons makes no sense whatsoever. ;) (FUD as in the sense that the reasoning you gave is not only false but it was directed towards the emotional core of every admin: security. It's a bit like drawing child porn card in an arbitrary network filtering conversation, really :p Drawing them randomly when they're not actually related to the matter at hand is meant to be a conversation killer and an "I Win" card)

Security absolutely is an important reason to modify existing API's. I'm not saying its the only one, but I am saying that as an admin it is one of the reasons that I can relate to. As such that is the reason I mentioned security in the first place. I fully appreciate that there exists many usage scenarios, unfortunately I catn know all of them and can only relate what I know. In my field security is prime.

I didnt intend it to be a conversation killer per se, but I did intend to get my point across efficiantly. We've been swapping posts now for too long in my opinion about something that neither one of us is going to change our minds on. For some reason that you still havent justified you think it is a great idea to keep around incomplete, broken, insecure, unstable, flawed, poorly designed API's that have no possibilty of being fixed and will be replaced anyways....Fine.... I'm perfectly ok with that. There actually exists such a thing that does exactly what you want. Its called winsxs.

[nanonyme]

in the argoment of stable api: http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/stable_api_nonsense.html"If Linux had to ensure that it preserve a stable source interface, a new interface would have been created, and the older, broken one would have had to be maintained over time, leading to extra work for the USB developers. Since all Linux USB developers do their work on their own time, asking programmers to do extra work for no gain, for free, is not a possibility." I agree, he makes good points. Might make no sense whatsoever on a free as in gratis operating system. Possibly more so in a commercial opensource operating system.

[yesterday]

"If Linux had to ensure that it preserve a stable source interface, a new interface would have been created, and the older, broken one would have had to be maintained over time, leading to extra work for the USB developers. Since all Linux USB developers do their work on their own time, asking programmers to do extra work for no gain, for free, is not a possibility." I agree, he makes good points. Might make no sense whatsoever on a free as in gratis operating system. Possibly more so in a commercial opensource operating system.

The benefit of this approach, regardless of the reasoning behind it, means that kernel and it's development is a lot more agile. It also in turn encourages in-tree participation, for the benefit of the kernel. Even a commercial open source OS can benefit from this.