Any update: HD Radeon 4xxx v.s. Nviida 260?

[Panix]

Could someone give some info on these cards in Linux?

I hope to upgrade sometime and I think it's between these series of cards:

Nvidia 260 GTX and the ATI Radeon HD 48xx series, 4870? Whatever is available at the time I'm ready to buy that is under $200.

I want to support ATI so I'd like to choose it but I get the impression there are so many restrictions or limitations currently (still? :-( ).

You need to use open source drivers for 3D or gaming? Whereas, 2D is fine with the proprietary fgrlx drivers? As long as the Catalyst utility/drivers are updated or something?

Maybe game in Windows on Windows partition and then it doesn't matter which you go with either AMD or Nvidia? I watch movies or video a lot with my computer (Online videos, movies both DVD and .avi or mpeg/mpeg4 etc. etc.) so I was wondering how either ATI or Nvidia cards plus the respective drivers effect this. I know the older Nvidia cards are fine and probably newer Nvida cards are supported via proprietary/binary drivers. There's a limitation there but at least there is not as many video issues? Or is there some tearing in certain cases? Or does that apply to ATI (only?)?

Could someone comment, explain and compare (perhaps?)?

Also, if ATI's drivers have both pros and cons depending whether you're using the open source or proprietary and what you're using them for, 2D or 3D, can you switch back and forth easily or does it involve installing and uninstalling? If so, how complicated is that process?

I've only dealt with Nvidia so far.

Thanks in advance for any replies. Sorry, if this post became rather lengthy and if I could have summarized it with less wordiness, I did try to address all the various comparisons and topics as briefly as I could. ;-)

[bridgman]

Just to clarify a couple of things - the Catalyst drivers *are* the proprietary drivers, ie Catalyst for Linux = proprietary fglrx.

You need to uninstall the proprietary drivers in order to use open source drivers.

Right now the proprietary drivers are the only option for 3D and gaming, but open source 3D drivers are making good progress.

[Kano]

Well fglrx compared to nvidia binary is really bad. If you want to play games go for Nvidia - provides even vdpau if needed.

[Ex-Cyber]

You need to use open source drivers for 3D or gaming? Whereas, 2D is fine with the proprietary fgrlx drivers?Actually it's pretty much the opposite: 2D tends to be good with the open-source drivers, and open-source 3D support is currently nonexistent in mainstream distros for the 4000 series. Likewise, Nvidia omits 3D support from its open-source driver.

Also, if ATI's drivers have both pros and cons depending whether you're using the open source or proprietary and what you're using them for, 2D or 3D, can you switch back and forth easily or does it involve installing and uninstalling? If so, how complicated is that process?It depends on the distro. It's not usually that bad, but it's not something you want to be doing every couple of hours.

If you want to do 3D gaming on Linux, especially if you want to use Wine, Nvidia is currently the clear winner. The main advantage of ATI's products is that they will support the next-generation open-source graphics stack (DRI2/TTM/KMS/Gallium3D), but that's still a work in progress and will take a while before mainstream distros ship it.

[hax0r]

The main advantage of ATI's products is that they will support the next-generation open-source graphics stack (DRI2/TTM/KMS/Gallium3D), but that's still a work in progress and will take a while before mainstream distros ship it.I don't know any advantages there, from what I see, nouveau is in much better shape regarding DRI2/TTM/KMS/Gallium3D.

[Kano]

I don't think that cards which need fglrx for full performance (unlike the really extra cheap lowend cards) are a good buy. I think the drivers will be dropped too soon like you see for r500. X1950 cards are definitely not slow, but since fglrx 9-4 they are not supported but that driver is needed for Xserver 1.6+. And the oss driver is definitely no full replacement - too many features are missing and speed is really low. I don't know when r600/r700 will be dropped but DX11 cards should be out this year for Win7/Vista. And then DX10.x is legacy.

[Panix]

After spending several agonizing minutes trying to find any kind of info on open source ATI drivers (for any type of graphics card or integrated graphics), I decided to give up. I'll definitely be going with an Nvidia card. The AMD/ATI website is absolutely abysmal.

[bridgman]

The open source driver work is managed as part of the xorg development effort so information is primarily maintained on the x.org site :

http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/

http://www.x.org/wiki/radeon

http://www.x.org/wiki/radeonhd

http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature

We mirror the documents on amd.com but in general we work with the xorg community and maintain the information there.

The drivers are already in most distributions out-of-the-box, and our goal is to have any distro that picks up relatively recent drivers from freedesktop.org "just work". Different distros have different priorities so the level of support you get varies between distros; for example Ubuntu 9.04 has solid support for all GPUs except the ones which shipped after Jaunty was released, including backported drm support for 6xx and 7xx EXA/XV acceleration, while Fedora 11 is the showcase for next generation drivers including Kernel Modesetting and GEM/TTM. Other distros, typically the "stable" releases, ship much older versions of the driver and require updates in order to support current hardware.

Is there something specific you are looking for ? We can put more info on amd.com about the open source drivers but my preference is to work with the community and keep all the important information on www.x.org instead.

In general we find that people looking for open source drivers go to the xorg pages not to the vendor pages. It probably wouldn't hurt to cross-link www.amd.com and www.x.org a bit more but I'm trying hard not to misrepresent what is essentially a community effort with significant AMD support.

EDIT - just out of curiosity I took a quick look at the NVidia site; the only mention of open source drivers I could find there was for chipset drivers; ethernet, disk etc...

[Kano]

Just like ATI, the nv oss driver is there:

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-nv/

Of course this or nouveau is preinstalled on a current distro. But compared to ATI they updated 3 legacy drivers already with 2.6.31 support, the latest stable 185.18.04 can be patched for 2.6.31 (patch can be found on nvnews.net). They DO provide updates for legacy chips, just no Xserver 1.5+ support for oldest legacy driver (mostly DX7 cards up to GeForce 2 GTS). And you can be sure that those drivers are full featured and do not miss lots of things which are only predicted for oss drivers, but not yet working.

[Melcar]

Just get the card that is more easily available/cheaper. Both have the potential to give you their fair share of headaches.
As for fglrx, it works fine as long as you don't have any composition running. The driver currently has problems with Compiz/kwin, which is where most of the complaints come from these days. The problems are known and are being worked on, so it's not like ATI users are out of luck. I got a 4850 and for what I do (games, movies, Compiz) it works fine.
The open source drivers are more of a "curiosity" right now for r600/r700 type hardware. They got working 2D accel. and functional Xv for proper movie playback, but no 3D yet.

[d2kx]

I don't think that cards which need fglrx for full performance (unlike the really extra cheap lowend cards) are a good buy. I think the drivers will be dropped too soon like you see for r500. X1950 cards are definitely not slow, but since fglrx 9-4 they are not supported but that driver is needed for Xserver 1.6+. And the oss driver is definitely no full replacement - too many features are missing and speed is really low. I don't know when r600/r700 will be dropped but DX11 cards should be out this year for Win7/Vista. And then DX10.x is legacy.

R8xx is still R6xx architecture. There will be new R8xx based cards from the end of 2009 until mid-2010 or so. So if AMD is going to drop R6xx+ support, it won't happen until early 2011 at the very earliest.

Also, fglrx in general is in a pretty good shape right know. Wine is working better with every release, crashes are getting rare and Composite is becoming usable.

[Panix]

I'd like to build a cheap 2nd system as well as upgrade my current system's video card. I was looking into a cheap AMD build and many of these have the integrated graphics IGP(?). Anyway, I couldn't find any info on the boards that have integrated HD Radeon 2100. Nothing, nada... very little Linux info on it and I had to rely on forum posts wherever they may be.

That is unacceptable, imho. I might eventually go for a more upscale board that has integrated HD Radeon 3200 or 3300 (reviewed here on Phoronix, I believe) so that would be more convenient (I believe the fglrx drivers/Catalyst is used) but still...

Back to graphics cards: I would go with ATI but it sounds like a lot of work and added concerns. It works BUT there is this condition and that condition... can't use compiz, okay, I don't need that but sounds like other restrictions, too.

At least, I am familiar with installing Nvidia drivers even though the process can be a bit inconvenient if trying for the most updated driver and worrying about upgrades. But, there's plenty of write-ups on it and I can usually find assistance.

With an ATI card, it's like starting all over and I am not sure how *well* things work. There is 'X works' but that doesn't explain or express how or to what extent. Interesting, though. I'd like to learn of more customer experiences with ATI cards with Linux before I'd take a chance on it.

[bridgman]

Most motherboard designs went straight from the rs690 (X1250) to the rs780 family of chipsets (HD3xxx); there are 740G-based motherboards out there but not a lot. The 740G is an updated version of the 690G, while the 780 family is an all new design with a graphics core midway between HD2400 and HD3450.

The chipset is called 740G; you'll probably have a lot more success searching for that than for radeon 2100.

There is some discussion of 740G on Phoronix as well : http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9431

That said, I would still strongly recommend you go for a 780. The price difference is pretty small and you get a 3D engine that is a couple of generations more current.

[Panix]

Most motherboard designs went straight from the rs690 (X1250) to the rs780 family of chipsets (HD3xxx); there are 740G-based motherboards out there but not a lot. The 740G is an updated version of the 690G, while the 780 family is an all new design with a graphics core midway between HD2400 and HD3450.

The chipset is called 740G; you'll probably have a lot more success searching for that than for radeon 2100.

There is some discussion of 740G on Phoronix as well : http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9431

That said, I would still strongly recommend you go for a 780. The price difference is pretty small and you get a 3D engine that is a couple of generations more current.
So, 780G or 780GX? I guess I could move up to such boards. That's good to know, thanks. I would probably use the integrated graphics at first, so I believe it would be HD Radeon 3200 or 3300 depending on the board?

I assume these boards also have a PCI-E x16 slot for video cards that I could go with if later on, I decide to? Does it have to be ATI? I read someplace that Nvidia cards 'choke' in AMD/ATI boards. IS that accurate?

Anyway, I have read up on 780G/GX chipset motherboards and it sounds good to me. Decent prices and option of the integrated graphics. I just need to decide whether it's worth it to go for one that supports DDR3 RAM.

[bridgman]

AFAIK the 780G graphics is referred to as "3200" while 790GX graphics is referred to as "3300". The cores are similar, but the 790GX runs at higher clock speeds the graphics performance is higher.

Note that the 790FX is a completely different chip without graphics.

All of the 780/790 mobos I have seen include an x16 PCIE slot with all 16 lanes hooked up but I believe the chipset can also be configured with just x8 wiring to the x16 slot and more PCIE lanes for other connectors, so double-check the specific motherboard to be sure.

The RAM connects to the CPU not the chipset, so AFAIK it's really a matter of getting a mobo with an AM3 socket and a CPU with DDR3 support if you want to run DDR3.

[tball]

This is my expirence with ATI/AMD. I try to tell this as neutral as posible (as a no ATI fan).

I have always had nvidia, since I bought this laptop (HD3650 mobility). I bought it in 2008, and at that time there were alot of problems with fglrx. I had problems with wine and compiz, but the installation weren't any problems.

Now in 2009 with 9.6 I am fairly impressed by the progress fglrx has gone through. No it isn't perfect yet, but a whole lot better than in the early 2008. Today I don't think about driver problems anymore, when I use my computer. I can even run a lot of wine apps now, which were impossible for just 2/3 month ago.

Here is my problems left:

- XV under compositing with fgrlrx = Not good. Tearing and slow video playback. With composite turned off, its fairly good. I have heard opengl is without tearing, but not as good quality.

- Maximizing / resizing under compositing is slow out of the box. It is easy solved installing a patched version of Xorg. I don't know if this is fglrx's fault.

- Still wine is able to crash, but I don't know if its fglrx or wine's fault. It seems 3D related, so it might be fglrx.

- 2D is alittle slower with compositing, than without. But that difference is almost gone in the newer versions. Without compositing, 2D is as fast as in windows.

I really don't have others problems with fglrx. But I want to move to the oss drivers soon, because last time i tried it 2D was very fast and xv video worked perfect without tearing.

[Panix]

I was curious about benchmarks. In Windows, there is a number of sites that compare via GAMES benchmarks and such.

But, for Linux, not so many. This site has done some reviews on cards and presented benchmarks but I was wondering about the current situation.

How do they compare? For e.g., HD Radeon 4870 or 4890 v.s. GeForce 260 GTX?

Those cards are neck and neck depending on the game but in Linux, is there any disparity due to the ATI factor? I don't even care if Nvidia in Linux is a bit lower in benchmarks compared to Windoze but I was wondering about how the cards compare to ATI's. Is the review done here still apply or is there an update based on the situation of Catalyst?

[Melcar]

Fglrx 3D performance is basically on par with the Windows driver. Of course, I'm talking only about cross-platform titles and not games running with Wine.

[bridgman]

The OpenGL stack is pretty much the same in the Linux and Windows XP drivers. 2D and video code is significantly different between the Linux and Windows drivers, however, since the acceleration APIs have very little in common.

There aren't a lot of benchmarks comparing different vendors' products under Linux but here's one :

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_hd4770&num=1&single=1

[Panix]

Does it matter which mobo you use with either of these cards?

Is there any issues with using a Nvidia card in one of the AMD AM2+ or AM3 motherboards?

I would probably use the ATI or Nvidia card (ones we're comparing, that generation, anyway) in my P35 mobo but I wanted to buy/build a 2nd system. I am debating whether to build a used P45 system (not a lot of upgrade options but still decent) or a newer AM2+ or AM3 system. The potential issue or factor would be that I have a Nvidia 7950GT in the P35 system I have. I could use this in the 2nd system as it probably doesn't have much re-sale value. However, if I buy an AMD AM2+ / AM3 system, I am not sure whether Nvidia cards can be used without problems. I know many have ATI integrated IGP graphics but I still would like to know about discrete grahpics cards options.

I suppose I could sell the GeForce 79xx series card for real cheap or find a friend/relative who wants/needs a simple discrete card but I was looking for all my options if I buy a 2nd system.

I also was curious about using one brand's card in the other (chipset) mobo. I know Intel has CrossFire but to my knowledge, it doesn't matter whether the discrete graphics card is ATI or Nvidia as it only matters if you are using two cards.

TIA for any info! :)

[sirdilznik]

I am using an AM2+ system. My mobo is K10N780SLIX3 running a Phenom II 940 and I use a GTX260-216. I've had no issues with this combination, the card runs beautifully in the system and gives terrific performance in both native games and under wine (depending on how far wine itself has come along for a given title). I can't comment on the ATI card since I haven't used ATI since my switch to Linux years ago, but I've been really happy with my GTX260-216, that card is a beast.

[MAXX]

My GTX 260 worked fine for about half a year...
Then it started squealing like a girl, no matter if I play certain games (Lugaru or X3 squeal like hell, Quake Wars, Doom 3, Americas Army and Prey run without squealing, creating high-poly models in Blender 3D makes the card squeal like hell...)
Seriously, it's unbearable. I'd buy a new card, but I'm afraid, that it'd just have the same fault.
And I heard about the crappy ATI drivers at every corner, so I can't buy one of theirs either... So I'll have to wait till NVIDIA uses better hardware or until ATI has better Linux drivers.

[Kano]

Couldn't you return the card?

[MAXX]

No, they say it's "normal"/"normal wearout".
Seriously, it's barely half a year old and... well, I'd definitely call it defect. It can't be considered normal that they produce such squealing crap and expect people to swallow it.

I'll post a link to a video where someone recorded his squealing GTX260 whichs squealing level is similar to mine. I don't have that link handy right now.

[Kano]

Try contacting the manufacturer.

[crumja]

Too much FUD going on here. It's always "I read this or that". Please, think about what you're reading instead of accepting it on blind faith. Panix, AMD does not restrict what video cards can be used with their motherboards; that would be illegal. MAXX, you "heard" about bad ATI drivers. Have you tried them to see if they meet your needs?

[MAXX]

Well, crumja, i don't feel like buying an ATI card for 300 bucks just to test if the drivers are suitable for my needs...
My GTX 260 sounds like this or even worse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAnLxMyapOs

And not just in menus/during intros, but also while playing certain games and creating 3d models, even in 2d mode, while moving windows around.
I tried activating the vsynch in the NVIDIA options which did not help, I tried clocking down the card which did not help eighter, I tried close to everything....

[bridgman]

That kind of squealing is usually either the fan or the voltage regulator; can you tell which one is making the noise ?

I guess I should mention that most of our cards sell for a lot less than $300 no matter where you buy them.

[MAXX]

Well, either the voltage regulator or the capacitors.
I checked the fan when it first occurred, it's definitely not the fan.

Also I'm not 100% sure if it occurred before or after my old power supply died. I think it was after I changed to a new power supply. The old one had 500 Watts and the new one has 800 Watts. Might be connected to that somehow, or maybe it just coincidentally occurred around that time. It was not there right after changing the PSU, but rather a few days after.
Maybe it had just enough juice to run at lower clockspeeds on the older PSU and so there occurred no squealing, although that's unlikely. I wish NVIDIA would just change to decent capacitors (preferably solid state ones) and to decent voltage regulators.
I'd gladly pay 50 additional bucks if I could be sure not to get any squealing in exchange...

[LenS]

Well, either the voltage regulator or the capacitors.
I checked the fan when it first occurred, it's definitely not the fan.

Also I'm not 100% sure if it occurred before or after my old power supply died. I think it was after I changed to a new power supply. The old one had 500 Watts and the new one has 800 Watts. Might be connected to that somehow, or maybe it just coincidentally occurred around that time. It was not there right after changing the PSU, but rather a few days after.
Maybe it had just enough juice to run at lower clockspeeds on the older PSU and so there occurred no squealing, although that's unlikely. I wish NVIDIA would just change to decent capacitors (preferably solid state ones) and to decent voltage regulators.
I'd gladly pay 50 additional bucks if I could be sure not to get any squealing in exchange...

Hi, to preface this I've used Nvidia cards for a long time and been very happy with them. Their drivers have always been first rate. Unfortunately drivers are only part of the reason to buy a particular video card and from what I've seen lately they've been cutting corners on hardware design and manufacturing. This is the reason for the short lifetime. Does your computer get turned on and off daily? more often? less often? That's a factor in the failures.

This is from the fourth in a series of investigative articles about the Nvidia failures and are fairly technical, but explain and detail the reasons for Nvidia's problems. I have not seen anything else more informative on the web. This refers to ALL Nvidia cards, some more than others, I would suggest reading all four articles to get a good understanding of what's going on. This writer has access to an electron microscope and there are pictures in the article explaining what he's talking about:

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1050052/nvidia-chips-show-underfill-problems
WHEN WE TOLD YOU about the 'bad bumps' in the Apple Macbook Pro 15-inch models the other day, we expected it to end there.

But as luck would have it, Nvidia pointed us to a much deeper problem that not only affects at least some of the Macbook Pro notebooks, but likely every other high Temperature of Glassification (Tg) underfill chip Nvidia makes.

Technical Background
To understand this article, you really need to understand the problem, so please read the technical three part series (Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3) explaining what the problem is and where it occurs.

Nvidia's current problem stems from its half-hearted response to its earlier problem by only changing the underfill. Nvidia said that's what it did, both near the end of our initial Macbook article and in a later Cnet article here.

[deanjo]

I wish NVIDIA would just change to decent capacitors (preferably solid state ones) and to decent voltage regulators.
I'd gladly pay 50 additional bucks if I could be sure not to get any squealing in exchange...

It's not nvidia who decides what caps and regulators are used on the boards. That is the manufacturer of the cards. Nvidia does not manufacture cards. There are several Nvidia cards out there that have superior caps and regs compared to other nvidia cards.

[deanjo]

Too much FUD going on here. It's always "I read this or that". Please, think about what you're reading instead of accepting it on blind faith. Panix, AMD does not restrict what video cards can be used with their motherboards; that would be illegal. MAXX, you "heard" about bad ATI drivers. Have you tried them to see if they meet your needs?

Actually restricting what items can be used on what boards is not illegal at all although they would frowned upon by many of the standard alliances and possibly be kicked out.

[Panix]

What make of Nvidia card is it?

I would go with either EVGA or XFX cards unless the price of another card was so low, you'd have to consider it. Even if I had no intention of overclocking, I'd still go with one of the above. They both RMA cards that have been overclocked by the buyer without any question. It just seems like they are more likely to accept/tolerate various issues without hassling or questioning the customer.

I think a hot-running card (at degrees higher than usual) or one making excessive noise would be cause for RMA.

A GTX 260 card should be relatively cool-running and not much louder than comparable cards. I found an article that compares GTX 285, GTX 260 (both architectures) and ATI Radeon HD4870 among other cards. The GTX 260 looked like a good compromise and way better as far as temps go compared to the ATI. I am now waiting for the GTX 260 to go down a bit in price (hopefully).

[panda84]

I don't know any advantages there, from what I see, nouveau is in much better shape regarding DRI2/TTM/KMS/Gallium3D.

To me it's quite the opposite. KMS working since Fedora 10 and DRI2 working since F11 on a Radeon 9500 AGP.
On the contrary KMS means blank screen in F12 alpha both for 8400M and 8800GT, while Radeon 9500 still work as it's supposed to work.
And I don't see a Gallium3D nouveau driver coming anytime soon.

[Tares]

As for ATI temps, usually theirs cooling sucks big time. Usually is better to get a higher priced model with better default cooling system. Well, if you don't believe me my HD4850 was running ~70C idle and 85C stress with default cooler. Now it's ~23C idle and 30C stress on LC :D On other 4850 I've installed Accelero S1 without any fans and it runs 45C idle / 66C stress. I know that HD4870 is usually hotter, but there is not a big difference.

[Zhick]

This is probably not relevant, but I'll just mention it. :P
I know that my ATi X1900 XT makes similar squeaky noises when I'm using the open-drivers and doing things like marking text in firefox and draging it around... it doesn't occur in games though so it's not really annoying. This doesn't happen when I'm using the closed source drivers.
So maybe it also was a driver change/update which introduced this on your card as well?

[MAXX]

Well, I was also happy with all my previous cards, the one I had before the GTX260 was a GT7800 and it was working and working and working for years. I just exchanged it because it started to lack performance. Maybe I just should have sticked with it. It had no squealing at all.

Sometimes my Computer gets turned off daily, but during weekends/holidays and so on it never gets turned off.

I was always satisfied with their drivers but... well, these "new" hardware flaws are really hurting their reputation with me...
AFAIK they've already been there in the 8xxx series, I'm pretty sure they were not there in the 7xxx series because as I already said, I've been using that card heavily for years. (and I sold it to a friend who is still using it all the time and has no problems with it)




What make of Nvidia card is it?

I think a hot-running card (at degrees higher than usual) or one making excessive noise would be cause for RMA.

It's a Leadtek GTX 260
Well, I already thought about returning it when that noise first occurred. But then I looked for some people who had experiences with returning stuff to the shop I bought it from and they said that most of the times they don't even look at the cards and so on.
Then I also read somewhere that they declare the squealing to be normal wearout.


BTW. the squealing is even there, while scrolling up and down in this thread.

[Panix]

It's a Leadtek GTX 260
Well, I already thought about returning it when that noise first occurred. But then I looked for some people who had experiences with returning stuff to the shop I bought it from and they said that most of the times they don't even look at the cards and so on.
Then I also read somewhere that they declare the squealing to be normal wearout.

BTW. the squealing is even there, while scrolling up and down in this thread.
Can you still return it? If you can, I would, right away. Imho, you got a defective card and your shop sounds like they're full of jerks. They just want the easy way out and try to convince you 'it's normal.' I am too scared to take chances with 'strange names', Leadtek, for e.g. Also, I want any potential RMA to go as smooth as possible. Before, I thought go with cheapest price but then I found out that EVGA and XFX are pretty relaxed regarding overclocking and I probably wouldn't even do that. I think that could mean they are pretty reasonable with cards that are returned hoping to retain your business.

All of them have defective cards that slip through the cracks, anyway. I will speculate and suggest maybe you got one. Especially if it is somewhat newer. Maybe the fan is dying on it so you are hearing the squeaks/noises?

[deanjo]

I am too scared to take chances with 'strange names', Leadtek, for e.g.

Leadtek has been around for a long time. They made the reference nvidia cards for years. They also have a RMA dept 2nd to none. XFX over the last while has gone to hell in a shithole when it comes to RMA's, the last card I had to RMA to them (a radeon 4870) took well over a month and a half to even get a reply. They used to be quick on RMA's but are absolutely one of the worst now.

[Panix]

Leadtek has been around for a long time. They made the reference nvidia cards for years. They also have a RMA dept 2nd to none. XFX over the last while has gone to hell in a shithole when it comes to RMA's, the last card I had to RMA to them (a radeon 4870) took well over a month and a half to even get a reply. They used to be quick on RMA's but are absolutely one of the worst now.
Whatever. I did a search for Leadtek video cards and got practically nothing. I am not sure where you or the other guy ordered their cards but I would not touch it with a ten foot pole.

Whatever happened was in the past. Since there is no choice with those cards or at least not available in my neck of the woods, what I said stands. Maybe XFX is bad now, I don't know. That's for XFX owners or former owners to decide. I just thought it was good that they allowed mods of their cards.

[deanjo]

Whatever. I did a search for Leadtek video cards and got practically nothing. I am not sure where you or the other guy ordered their cards but I would not touch it with a ten foot pole.

Whatever happened was in the past. Since there is no choice with those cards or at least not available in my neck of the woods, what I said stands. Maybe XFX is bad now, I don't know. That's for XFX owners or former owners to decide. I just thought it was good that they allowed mods of their cards.

Must be using Bing for a search engine. Leadtek shows millions of hits on google as well there are a crap load of product reviews on them.

[Panix]

Must be using Bing for a search engine. Leadtek shows millions of hits on google as well there are a crap load of product reviews on them.
I used Google.

There's not one Leadtek video card available on Newegg, for e.g., and vendors I would check had none as well. I was just saying I would have to go out of my way to find one so I would not bother.

[MAXX]

Well, I guess I could try to return it, but technically that'd mean sending it to the online shop I bought it from, then waiting for like 1 months to probably just receive my same squealing card back... or a used card of someone else who sent in his card...

I was thinking about covering the whole card in hot glue tomorrow, which would obviously void the warranty but also might reduce the squealing as reported online in previous places. (http://theovalich.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/nvidias-deadly-flaw-and-how-to-fix-it-no-more-gtx280-squealing/)

Before I do that, I'll try to exactly locate the source, because if it's not the capacitors, but rather the voltage regulator, then obviously glueing all the card would be pointless and sending it in would make more sense. It's so annoying and loud, that I can't live with that card anymore in its current state, that's for sure.

I found an online shop which guarantees that their cards don't squeals though. They test them all and I think you can return them hassle free if they should squeal. (but I got to do some further research on their return policies before considering to buy one of their cards)

I did some extensive research on the return policies of the vendor I bought the squealing card from (not the manufacturer) and both people on the Internet and people I know who tried to return something, only have bad things to report. Waiting at least 4 weeks, having to send in stuff multiple times after it got sent back in the same state and so on. I guess that's the price you have to pay when you go with the cheap stuff. They cut down almost all their service...

If they at least had a physical shop. I hate talking to people on the phone, basically people at those hotline lie to you... that's what the people at my ISP hotline do, that's what the people do at almost every hotline I've ever called.
Last time the guy even said something similar to "Sir, I'm not a technician, I'm just a salesman, I don't understand what you're saying."

If they had a physical shop it'd be way easier to just talk one of the employees into taking the card and giving me a brand new one in exchange. I even talked people into "taking stuff back", that I never bought in that shop, but rather in another one and I knew that the other one would not take it without the recipe...

I already tried clocking the card down which did not help reducing the sound, reducing the voltage might help though, at least that's what I read today. I might try that if glueing does not help. And if that also doesn't help I'll probably buy a new one. Sending it in would IMO just be a waste of time. (well, and i couldn't send it in anymore after glueing around on it...)

[deanjo]

I used Google.

There's not one Leadtek video card available on Newegg, for e.g., and vendors I would check had none as well. I was just saying I would have to go out of my way to find one so I would not bother.

Newegg doesn't have alot of brands. Lack of finding them on there hardly qualifies them as a unknown or junk. Newegg, TigerDirect, etc are all loaded full of junk as well as some quality products.

[crumja]

Actually restricting what items can be used on what boards is not illegal at all although they would frowned upon by many of the standard alliances and possibly be kicked out.

No, it would violate antitrust laws in the US and anticompetitive laws in the EU. Think of Microsoft bundling a browser or extending Java to render it incompatible. In terms of engineering, the only way you can exclude a certain type of card is to either extend the PCI-E standard on your card and your mobo so that they're only compatible together or to detect the brand and exclude that. Both of these actions violate competition laws.

You're probably thinking of certification. Yes, a vendor can certify its own products to work "better" with a platform, but everyone who implements PCI-E has to guarantee that all PCI-E cards that obey the standard can work.

[crumja]

Well, crumja, i don't feel like buying an ATI card for 300 bucks just to test if the drivers are suitable for my needs...

You know you can return it, right? Alternatively, find a friend who owns an ATI card.

[deanjo]

No, it would violate antitrust laws in the US and anticompetitive laws in the EU. Think of Microsoft bundling a browser or extending Java to render it incompatible. In terms of engineering, the only way you can exclude a certain type of card is to either extend the PCI-E standard on your card and your mobo so that they're only compatible together or to detect the brand and exclude that. Both of these actions violate competition laws.

You're probably thinking of certification. Yes, a vendor can certify its own products to work "better" with a platform, but everyone who implements PCI-E has to guarantee that all PCI-E cards that obey the standard can work.

Sorry but your wrong. This has been done for years. For example you cannot run SLi setup on a ATI chipset board and vice vera. You cannot use a off the shelf video card in a Mac. Hell you can't even make a chipset for another venders CPU unless you have licensing rights. Then there is also the fact that some devices (raid cards and ide controllers come in mind) will actually blacklist or drop the drives to a lower performance mode then others to address compatibility issues. Another example of this is Nvidia cards having to drop to 1x AGP mode on the old irongate amd chipsets.

Sorry but limiting functionality and features are very commonplace in the PC world and it is not illegal at all.

[MAXX]

Okay, I just checked Leadteks return policies for Europe.
So okay, if they decide that the squealing is returnworthy, I have to pay about 10 bucks for shipping to the Czech Republic.
If they decide that squealing is normal, then I have to pay about 50 bucks because of shipping and their nice fee...
That'd already be 1/3rd of a new card.

I'm pretty sure that I lost some performance though, and the first time this squealing occurred was connected to a series of bluescreens, so... well, I'm not sure whether to return it or not.
There definitely is a difference now. Take any LGP game. Usually I could easily skip the Intro. Since the squealing occurred, when I press escape to skip the Intro, the picture will hang for about 5-10 seconds.

[Panix]

Well, I guess I could try to return it, but technically that'd mean sending it to the online shop I bought it from, then waiting for like 1 months to probably just receive my same squealing card back... or a used card of someone else who sent in his card...

I was thinking about covering the whole card in hot glue tomorrow, which would obviously void the warranty but also might reduce the squealing as reported online in previous places. (http://theovalich.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/nvidias-deadly-flaw-and-how-to-fix-it-no-more-gtx280-squealing/)

Before I do that, I'll try to exactly locate the source, because if it's not the capacitors, but rather the voltage regulator, then obviously glueing all the card would be pointless and sending it in would make more sense. It's so annoying and loud, that I can't live with that card anymore in its current state, that's for sure.

I found an online shop which guarantees that their cards don't squeals though. They test them all and I think you can return them hassle free if they should squeal. (but I got to do some further research on their return policies before considering to buy one of their cards)

I did some extensive research on the return policies of the vendor I bought the squealing card from (not the manufacturer) and both people on the Internet and people I know who tried to return something, only have bad things to report. Waiting at least 4 weeks, having to send in stuff multiple times after it got sent back in the same state and so on. I guess that's the price you have to pay when you go with the cheap stuff. They cut down almost all their service...

That sucks. I am always hesitant to buy online for that reason. In case I have an issue with the part. It's much easier to buy locally and then just bring it back. But, prices locally are really horrible.

If I was you, I'd try following suggestions in that article. It was interesting. I didn't know that the squealing was more widespread. I haven't heard about it til now. I think gluing is your last resort. If you're willing to do that, I would just find a super cheap card to use in the meantime and send it back and try to find the receipt. But, try using other power alternatives to see if it helps. It is the easiest and hopefully cheapest to try.

[MAXX]

I think I'll go with the glueing and if it doesn't work I might go with one of the "non squealing" certified cards of that vendor I mentioned before.

After reading that Leadtek makes you pay if they don't send you a new card, I kinda lost my will to send it in, although I think that it's a serious flaw on the other hand.
I know where my receipt is and I also thought about sending it in and getting some cheap card in the meantime, but if I take the cost of a cheap card (around 25 bucks is the cheapest I could find here)
and then the cost of them deciding that my card works flawless (lol, who knows, i todays weird world, it might come that way...) which is around 50 bucks... well, a new one is 150.. so that'd be already half the money for which I'd get a brand new card in any shop, without having to wait and so on...
So basically there's the risk of just "losing" at least 50 bucks if I send it in, versus getting a brand new card for 150, even a guaranteed squeal free one.

I wish there was a reasonably cheap hardware store close by at which I could just buy all my stuff and return it hassle free. Well, there actually is a good hardware store nearby which has reasonable prices, but they also are strange with returning stuff. I once tried to return a broken harddrive (2 days after buying it) and I just wanted the same harddrive again, no money back or anything. The guy was making a drama out of it and wanted to test all kinds of stuff. Then I just started talking to the guy next to him and he did a quick test which found nothing but still exchanged my harddrive, it has been working good ever since.

I hate all this shit. They try to slip past their responsibility whereever they can, and try to tell you that the weirdest things are normal...

[crumja]

Sorry but your wrong. This has been done for years. For example you cannot run SLi setup on a ATI chipset board and vice vera. You cannot use a off the shelf video card in a Mac. Hell you can't even make a chipset for another venders CPU unless you have licensing rights. Then there is also the fact that some devices (raid cards and ide controllers come in mind) will actually blacklist or drop the drives to a lower performance mode then others to address compatibility issues. Another example of this is Nvidia cards having to drop to 1x AGP mode on the old irongate amd chipsets.

Sorry but limiting functionality and features are very commonplace in the PC world and it is not illegal at all.

I believe we're answering different questions. You're thinking of the wider action of restricting one's products (be they hardware or software) to a particular platform. This is generally fine but subject to some legal constraints. I'm talking about the specific extension of the PCI-E standard to restrict competitor products (specifically video cards).

PCI-E is a problem because it is a trademark of the consortium PCI-SIG. If your board says it is PCI-E compatible and uses the PCI-E logo, it has to work with all PCI-E peripherals. Why? Well, as I said, if you truly want to restrict competitor peripherals on your board, you would do one of the following:

1. Make a proprietary standard the sole implemented one on your motherboards and make your cards capable of working on both that and regular PCI-E. If you do this and still certify your board as PCI-E, this is illegal because it's the same as the embrace+extend strategy that Microsoft did with Java.

2. Install a controller chip on the PCI-E bus to intercept signals and detect the device id, passing through signals from ids registered with one's own cards. Not only is this utterly impractical, but it's also anticompetitive in that it targets a certain subset that should work with your boards. An example of this deemed illegal is the telecoms who owned the phone lines restricting DSL access to their own services.

To address the examples you gave:

SLI on ATI chipset: ATI does not feature the SLI sticker or license SLI from Nvidia. It does not even claim to support it. Nor is Nvidia under any obligation (afaik) to sell a license to ATI because there isn't a patent sharing agreement between Nvidia and ATI. SLI is not an open standard.

Video cards on mac: Apple doesn't write any drivers for that video card for its own OS. There's nothing preventing you from installing Linux on a mac and using an add-in card with open-source drivers. There's nothing restricting you; Apple just doesn't go out of its way to help you. There's a difference there.

CPUs and patents: This isn't an issue. Yes, rights for CPU sockets need to be licensed. PCI-E also needs to be licensed, but it's available to anyone in the consortium. Your motherboard most likely says PCI-E certified on the cover and also whatever socket has been licensed. Obviously, if you don't license something, you can't claim to support it, but then that's your (the vendor's) fault.

Raid controllers: I'm not too well-read on these devices, but it sounds like someone isn't implementing a standard correctly or that there is no standard. In that case, dropping to another mode is doing a favour to support a device that has been improperly made or not certified.

Same thing I'd think with Nvidia and Irongate.



I remember when I worked on the .NET Framework team at Microsoft that we always had a lawyer in attendance to make sure our work under ECMA licensing did not cause too onerous an implementation burden on things like Mono. You can see how seriously standards are implemented given the wide compatibility of devices on PCI-E.

[Mardok]

I was about to make a new topic asking for people's thoughts on the 260 vs 4xxx, but I'll just use this topic instead.

I'm using AMD64 Gentoo with an HD4850, ati-drivers 9.9-r2, and xorg-server 1.6.3.901-r2.

I'm getting quite sick of the shoddy performance. Conky keeps flickering in the back with and without compositing, and resizing and restoring windows lags.

I'm now considering moving my Steam games over to Gentoo and play on Wine so I don't have to keep switching between OS's.

So here's my question: is it worth switching over to the GTX260? I knew there were going to be issues with the 4850 under Linux, but my standards changed throughout using it. I would really like good performance in 3D without flickering 2D windows.

Will it be worth shelling out $150 (minus whatever I sell my 4850 for) for an nVidia card, or just suck it up and wait for the drivers to improve?

[bridgman]

Conky flickering seems to be a common problem with default settings but it seems to be fixable :

http://conky.sourceforge.net/faq.html

http://saraithegeek.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/how-to-fix-conky-flickering-borders-and-drop-shadows/

http://www.agitate.org.uk/blog/?p=3

http://www.ubuntugeek.com/conky-a-light-weight-system-monitor-for-ubuntu-linux-systems.html

The key seems to be enabling double buffering and making it not draw to the root window. Double buffering also may need the "dbe" module loaded in xorg.conf. The flickering does not seem to be specific to any vendor's hardware or drivers.

A performance optimization patch ("107 don't backfill") was removed between 1.5x and 1.6 X server versions in order to fix a problem on another vendor's hardware, but the result was laggy minimize/maximize with XAA acceleration (ie with fglrx). Most distros offer a version of the X server which has that patch restored, eliminating the delays.

[Kano]

wine + nvidia is of course a much better combination than wine + fglrx as most developers use nvidia. i really want to see a gt300 card for linux. a gtx 260 or 275 is very interesting now for the price, you get vdpau too for hd videos. videos look much better with it.

[Mardok]

http://saraithegeek.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/how-to-fix-conky-flickering-borders-and-drop-shadows/

That one fixed the problem.


A performance optimization patch ("107 don't backfill") was removed between 1.5x and 1.6 X server versions in order to fix a problem on another vendor's hardware, but the result was laggy minimize/maximize with XAA acceleration (ie with fglrx). Most distros offer a version of the X server which has that patch restored, eliminating the delays.

I see, I'll look into it.

Thanks for the speedy replies, much appreciated.

[mouprefu]

I can confirm that the connector pipe does have a bracket for the centrestand
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[Mardok]

My GeForce GTX260 arrived a couple days ago, but crapped out on me. It's being RMA'd right now.

On the GTX260, Team Fortress 2 is able to run on Wine sometimes (depending on the phase of the moon I guess). However, UT2004 gets about 70-80 FPS and 2D doesn't have that great of a framerate in Compiz-fusion. My Radeon HD4850 can get smoother compositing with FGLRX other than the delay with maximizing, which I still have to fix. UT2004 performance is a different story with FGLRX...

I remember my old GeForce 7900GTX having great 2D and 3D. Are the drivers just not up to snuff yet with the GTX 200 series? Does anyone have the same experience with their GTX260? There's no way UT2004 should get 70-80 FPS, my 7900GTX got around that framerate, not to mention Compiz. I think I remembered to turn off compositing before I started UT2004, might have to double check that before I complain some more.

I have a feeling I'm doing something wrong with the drivers or settings with my GTX260, however Ubuntu and Gentoo seemed to have about the same performance with 2D and Team Fortress 2. I tried both the 185.* and 190.* drivers under both OS's and performance on both drivers seemed to be about the same.