GNOME's Zeitgeist Engine Has Its First Release

[phoronix]

Phoronix: GNOME's Zeitgeist Engine Has Its First Release

One of the GNOME projects that's in development that should premiere around the time of GNOME 3.0 is Zeitgeist, which is the system for tracking user activity and events and then logging it, so that later on the user can use the Zeitgeist tool to browse or find events and files on the computer. This project is described by the Zeitgeist developers as, "You worked on a file, but you cannot remember where you saved it? You visited a web page about basketball three days ago, but you cannot find the URL in your browser's history? No problem, this is where Zeitgeist enters the scene...

http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=NzM4Mw

[hax0r]

Another epic fail IMO. I know where my files are and don't need any trackers indexing and grinding my disk down. I don't know why indexing is such a popular feature of many OSes. It's sad how much effort beagle and tracker received.

[Pfanne]

sounds interesting!
but the data this program gathers is dangerous. imagine someone hacked you computer and knows when you stored what where and what you did with whom..

[mattmatteh]

I hope this is not being integrated in to gnome apps ? I kinda think this stuff is already, gedit for example, will open a file and jump to the last location in the file. Seriously, its a simple text file, all that does is waste cpu and disk. I find this really annoying, which is why i ditched gedit.

/me thinks about mouning ~ on tmpfs

What bothers me the most is the useless disk access and wasted cpu.

matt

[Milyardo]

Another epic fail IMO. I know where my files are and don't need any trackers indexing and grinding my disk down. I don't know why indexing is such a popular feature of many OSes. It's sad how much effort beagle and tracker received.

The article doesn't mention Zeitgiest's long term goals, which may be why you believe it to be another indexing service. It shouldn't be thought of as Yet Another Desktop Indexer, but more like a desktop revision control system. Like bzr or git that doesn't require commits(or branches, or pushing and pulling of remote repo's or anything else that at normal desktop user wouldn't use).

[oyvind]

I don't like to judge software before having tested it, but I'm pretty sure I would disable this one fast, if it came enabled by default on a fresh installation of, say, a future Ubuntu release. I've seriously given content indexers a try, but they mostly just waste system resources and add little value. The Locate program is very simple, but still often does the job. Besides, I rarely forget where I store things or what I work on.

[movieman]

Not to mention that it's a security and privacy nightmare: if I wanted some database tracking every web page I ever visit, I'd move back to Britain.

I'll never understand why some people believe that logging everything they ever do and keeping every version of every file on their system is a good idea.

[cruiseoveride]

Sounds like a piece of shit.

Keep Registry crap on Windows only please

[BlackStar]

Sounds like a piece of shit.

Keep Registry crap on Windows only please

Non sequitur.

As described, Zeitgeist looks like a replay or revision control system. It has abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with the windows registry.

There are many legitimate uses for such a system and it opens some pretty interesting possibilities if it's included by default. What possibilities? Think user assistance (your father loses his photos, you use Zeitgeist to retrace his steps and restore them), application testing (I did xyz and your application crashed, here is a Zeitgeist replay) and more.

Of course, most people wouldn't understand innovation even if you spellt it, but that's ok. I, for one, like seeing features that aren't copied right out of commercial OSs.

[BlackStar]

Not to mention that it's a security and privacy nightmare: if I wanted some database tracking every web page I ever visit, I'd move back to Britain.

I'll never understand why some people believe that logging everything they ever do and keeping every version of every file on their system is a good idea.

Because some people keep valuable stuff on their systems. Music creation; 3d models; textures; retouched photos; book scripts; source code.

Note: this is orthogonal to regular backups. If I understand Zeitgeist correctly, it could work as a revision control system for your whole system.

Obviously, if you are concerned that someone might be monitoring your workstation, it would be best to minimize traces of your illegal activities - hence no Zeitgeist for you. :P

[cruiseoveride]

And some people just dont want more features.

If I wanted a feature fest i'd use KDE

[movieman]

Because some people keep valuable stuff on their systems. Music creation; 3d models; textures; retouched photos; book scripts; source code.

And they'll lose them all if they're not backed up on a remote system. Compulsory version control is just silly; there's a reason why even Microsoft didn't copy it from VMS.

Obviously, if you are concerned that someone might be monitoring your workstation, it would be best to minimize traces of your illegal activities - hence no Zeitgeist for you. :P

Who said anything about illegality? There are many perfectly good commercial and personal reasons for not wanting your computer to save away every file you ever access and every web site you ever visit. Heck, Mozilla just put a new feature into Firefox to _prevent_ it from logging what you do because many users wanted that.

If this goes into Gnome and can't be turned off, I'm not even sure we'll be able to justify using it at work anymore. For example, a while back I was given sample files from a customer which they required me to delete all copies of once we were done testing; how do I do that if the _windowing system_ is saving away copies in random places?

[Yfrwlf]

You know the Firefox smart search bar? Same sort of concept. Making histories and such return things that are more useful and more relevant to users. Gnome 3 is trying to base the desktop around getting you to the media and programs you want faster, putting less focus on "file managers" and more focus on "event managers".

Hey, actually that's a pretty good term to use IMO...but I'm sure someone already thought of it first. :D

But I think it's a good thing, turning the computing experience into the same kind of easy access experience that, say, gaming consoles have, or media centers give you, etc. If you do have a need to access files/programs through the traditional methods, of course the file managers and consoles will still be available, but I think easier-to-use UIs will only increase in traction for the mainstream computing experiences.

P.S., think Minority Report, etc. Only time will tell as to what computing experiences are desirable but I definitely think there is room for these environments.

[BlackStar]

And they'll lose them all if they're not backed up on a remote system. Compulsory version control is just silly; there's a reason why even Microsoft didn't copy it from VMS.

As I said, this feature is orthogonal to regular backups. I understand your urge to post, but make sure you understand someone's point before clicking the reply button.

Who said anything about illegality? There are many perfectly good commercial and personal reasons for not wanting your computer to save away every file you ever access and every web site you ever visit. Heck, Mozilla just put a new feature into Firefox to _prevent_ it from logging what you do because many users wanted that.
Illegal activities = tongue in cheek.

If you have legitimate reasons to avoid this feature, just turn it off. Feeling paranoid? Compile it out.

It's not as if this were some obligatory spyware forced down your throat by the government.

[duby229]

As I said, this feature is orthogonal to regular backups. I understand your urge to post, but make sure you understand someone's point before clicking the reply button.


Illegal activities = tongue in cheek.

If you have legitimate reasons to avoid this feature, just turn it off. Feeling paranoid? Compile it out.

It's not as if this were some obligatory spyware forced down your throat by the government.

It's not always that easy. In this case this functionality will be built on to be critical to the UI. The work that your seeing now is just the initial framework being hammered out. The UI work will come later once the framework issues are resolved.

[timofonic]

Seriously... Canonical and Novell are infecting the Linux ecosystem in the worst way.

- First they make grow Gnome and GTK, but they make it a flawed project in the process. Tons of wrong design choosings.

- Then they make spread MONO as a dependency.

- They infect Debian too, installing MONO by default.

- They try to imitate both the Apple and Microsoft in a crappy and unoriginal way.

Seriously, they need to start their own path and not copycat the other main platforms in such an extreme way. Linux wust stay innovative and free.

Of course average users need a similar environment, but they need to provide something fresh and interesting.

The last experience I had with Ubuntu was horrible, deadly slow compared to another environments and their "easy way" was not so comfortable for certain situations. I'm a lot more keyboard driven and preferring other kind of window managers, but as mouse-based window managers I would prefer other alternatives.

[sylware]

There are indeed some pratical benefits to use such tools... but at the time of features like anonymous browsing... it's a bit awkward. Big Brother will be watching you more easily with such a tool.

[BlackStar]

There are indeed some pratical benefits to use such tools... but at the time of features like anonymous browsing... it's a bit awkward. Big Brother will be watching you more easily with such a tool.

Erm, how about no? Unlike browser cookies third parties won't have access to Zeitgeist over the network. It's apples to oranges.

If you really care about privacy that much, encrypt your emails (you aren't using GMail or Hotmail I hope?) and access the internet through Tor. Anything less and is for naught: your ISP already keeps a complete history of your connections and data movement; google is close behind.

The ability to abuse something like Zeitgeist is simply a non-issue compared to the above. Sure, someone could root your system and copy your Zeitgeist history, but then you are toast anyway.

[RoboJ1M]

- They try to imitate both the Apple and Microsoft in a crappy and unoriginal way.

Seriously, they need to start their own path and not copycat the other main platforms in such an extreme way. Linux wust stay innovative and free.


You know, it took me years of copying other people's recipes to make my dinner before I could make up my own.

And for the record, I think this is very interesting. So far it's one of those what-the-hell-is-it-even-for and i'm-sticking-with-what-i-know things, but lets face it:

File Managers and dumb hierarchal (?) file systems suck. Time for something new that works please!

I remember when I first saw iTunes on my gf's eMac. I didn't understand the point. Then I saw her find a track using a single search box without having to know where the file was on the disk. Always thought that was pretty much how everything should work.

J1M.

[sylware]

Erm, how about no? Unlike browser cookies third parties won't have access to Zeitgeist over the network. It's apples to oranges.

If you really care about privacy that much, encrypt your emails (you aren't using GMail or Hotmail I hope?) and access the internet through Tor. Anything less and is for naught: your ISP already keeps a complete history of your connections and data movement; google is close behind.

The ability to abuse something like Zeitgeist is simply a non-issue compared to the above. Sure, someone could root your system and copy your Zeitgeist history, but then you are toast anyway.

1 - It's not a matter of data being available over the network. It's a matter to have a tool that will scrutinize you and write down all that nicely indexed.
2 - ISP cannot log everything, I think it's far from everything (I work for a million access points ISP). Google keeps the IPs of searchs... hum maybe not all of them... This is so much data that it seems unrealistic. Worst case, they select the searchs to log based on specific criterias.
3 - You missed the point, if you are rooted, it's not a good reason to provide nicely indexed data to the attacker.

It's a trade off... but people should be aware what this tool does in the background.
Soon "anonymous desktop" like "anonymous browsing" ?

[Pfanne]

im pretty sure the zeitgeist developers will know of the urge for privacy many of the open source users have, so im pretty sure there will be an easy way to stop the history for a few minutes and then turn it on again...
maybe someone can write a nice program that adds fake events for the time you are trying to do whatever it is you want to do...
and if you dont like it just turn it off...
im pretty sure the gnome project wont force this down your throat!

[BlackStar]

1 - It's not a matter of data being available over the network. It's a matter to have a tool that will scrutinize you and write down all that nicely indexed.
2 - ISP cannot log everything, I think it's far from everything (I work for a million access points ISP). Google keeps the IPs of searchs... hum maybe not all of them... This is so much data that it seems unrealistic. Worst case, they select the searchs to log based on specific criterias.
3 - You missed the point, if you are rooted, it's not a good reason to provide nicely indexed data to the attacker.

It's a trade off... but people should be aware what this tool does in the background.
Soon "anonymous desktop" like "anonymous browsing" ?

1 - amen! It's about time computers started doing that instead of users having to categorize everything by hand. What's the point of 'Documents', 'Pictures' and 'Videos' directories? The metadata is there, sort it out for me machine slave! :p

Nicely indexed = the future.

(Note: I'm not saying that Zeitgeist will do that, just that it's desirable).


2 - The EU requires all ISPs to log *every single* connection for a period of 6 - 24 months (at the goverments' discretion). Google has managed to put its 'google analystics' tracker into half the web. Even with private browsing (no tracker cookies) it can log both your short- and long-term browsing habits, even if you don't use google search, youtube or gmail.

A lot of data? Yes. Unrealistic? No.

What's worse, this data tells more than enough about your personality and it's already logged (no need to even touch the 'social networking' craze of late.)

Paranoia? Yes! Warranted? Probably. (This is an open source community we are talking about, anyway, we all care about privacy).

My point is that a desktop indexing/tracking tool is hardly an invasion of privacy. It's there for your *own* use. Its data is not stored on some third-party server (I fucking hope!) - it's on your disk to use or delete as you like.


3 - sorry, but if you are rooted you are fucked no matter what. It doesn't matter if your data is indexed or not - it's there in plain view (including your passwords and everything else you'd wish to hide). Hell, the attacker could run an indexer on the spot if he wished.

Frankly, there's only one way to protect your privacy 100%: pull an RMS and disconnect from the internet. Afterwards, get rid of your credit cards, bank accounts, car, house, fake a death and go live on some rock. :P

A tool like Zeitgeist... simply doesn't matter to your privacy. It's like optimizing a bubblesort with SSE - pointless.

[sylware]

im pretty sure the gnome project wont force this down your throat!
YEAH! Like the mono kludge? :(

[sylware]

1 - amen! It's about time computers started doing that instead of users having to categorize everything by hand. What's the point of 'Documents', 'Pictures' and 'Videos' directories? The metadata is there, sort it out for me machine slave! :p

Nicely indexed = the future.

(Note: I'm not saying that Zeitgeist will do that, just that it's desirable).


2 - The EU requires all ISPs to log *every single* connection for a period of 6 - 24 months (at the goverments' discretion). Google has managed to put its 'google analystics' tracker into half the web. Even with private browsing (no tracker cookies) it can log both your short- and long-term browsing habits, even if you don't use google search, youtube or gmail.

A lot of data? Yes. Unrealistic? No.

What's worse, this data tells more than enough about your personality and it's already logged (no need to even touch the 'social networking' craze of late.)

Paranoia? Yes! Warranted? Probably. (This is an open source community we are talking about, anyway, we all care about privacy).

My point is that a desktop indexing/tracking tool is hardly an invasion of privacy. It's there for your *own* use. Its data is not stored on some third-party server (I fucking hope!) - it's on your disk to use or delete as you like.


3 - sorry, but if you are rooted you are fucked no matter what. It doesn't matter if your data is indexed or not - it's there in plain view (including your passwords and everything else you'd wish to hide). Hell, the attacker could run an indexer on the spot if he wished.

Frankly, there's only one way to protect your privacy 100%: pull an RMS and disconnect from the internet. Afterwards, get rid of your credit cards, bank accounts, car, house, fake a death and go live on some rock. :P

A tool like Zeitgeist... simply doesn't matter to your privacy. It's like optimizing a bubblesort with SSE - pointless.

It's a matter of choice. I'm not the only one concerned about it, then the polite thing to do would be to let the user choose. Namely, not installed by default.
EU requires many unreasonable things which go way beyond the technical challenge/cost. Usually, logging is done where it's reasonable. BTW, I wonder what will be reasonnable when we will have the FTTH (Fiber To The Home) and dark nets everywhere... :D
Come on... it's perfectly fair to be uncomfortable with such a tool. The most important is to let the user choose if we wants to be scrutunised by this tool.
As I said earlier, and we agreed, if your system is breached, your are screwed, but at least let the attacker do the indexing :rolleyes:

[BlackStar]

It's a matter of choice. I'm not the only one concerned about it, then the polite thing to do would be to let the user choose. Namely, not installed by default.
EU requires many unreasonable things which go way beyond the technical challenge/cost. Usually, logging is done where it's reasonable. BTW, I wonder what will be reasonnable when we will have the FTTH (Fiber To The Home) and dark nets everywhere... :D
Come on... it's perfectly fair to be uncomfortable with such a tool. The most important is to let the user choose if we wants to be scrutunised by this tool.
As I said earlier, and we agreed, if your system is breached, your are screwed, but at least let the attacker do the indexing :rolleyes:

Fair enough. :)

Personally, I trust the Gnome developers to not screw up usability or privacy intentionally. Even if they somehow manage to screw this up, the package will have to filter through usability testing and distro developers before it becomes enabled by default - if ever. (See Empathy client for example).

Gnome have decided to take a pretty bold step with version 3.0. Let them go the whole way - as long as they keep their core tenet in mind (usability!), chances are the result will be worth it. Besides, their track record is pretty much flawless so far (the only "serious" usability regression I can think of is the removal of the fonts:/// url in nautilus).

[eric.frederich]

I'm glad to see that Gnome could make due with Sqlite unlike KDE4 which actually depends on MySQL.

They really should use some DB abstraction like sqlalchemy or just use standard SQL so that any db could be used.

SQLite is the only DB I am okay with programs hard coding for since it is public domain.

[drag]

I'm glad to see that Gnome could make due with Sqlite unlike KDE4 which actually depends on MySQL.

They really should use some DB abstraction like sqlalchemy or just use standard SQL so that any db could be used.

Why? Do you think it's really that valuable that people have a choice between various multi-user server databases that it warrents even caring about?



SQLite is the only DB I am okay with programs hard coding for since it is public domain.

Well two points:

A: The Gnome project is already all GPL or LGPL. Picking a database based on licensing at this point is utterly irrelevant to any sort of possible use cases.

B: SQL sucks for storage. It does. Any SQL. Oracle, MySQL, SleepyDB, etc I hate it when application developers use it and depend on it. It's a web-based thing were people think that SQL is nice... When it's not really. It's wrong. SQL is slow, and backwards, old fasioned thinking, and people treat it like it's own programming language.. (stored triggers and that sort of crap) which is just retarded. I'll have my application logic in the application, thank you very much. Flat files are superior for 90% of the stuff people use MySQL/Postgresql/etc etc. Much faster, much simpler.

What is wrong with using something like Haadoop? At least you'd have something that scales properly. :P Or CouchDB?

Bah.

I don't have anything against people using SQL properly.. but goddammit people need to learn to use a bit more imagination. SQL-for-everything is so blinkeringly wrong-headed and leads to all sorts of horrible performance and reliability issues.

[eric.frederich]

Why? Do you think it's really that valuable that people have a choice between various multi-user server databases that it warrents even caring about?

Yes actually. Not because one might be better than the other. It would be nice if I didn't a different database server for each application that decided to target a specific one.

Both MythTV and KDE go after MySQL and nothing else.

What if I'm on an obscure platform where I can only get PostgreSQL running or what if I already have 5 databases in Postgre... wouldn't it be nice just to add a 6th rather than start up MySQL to host one small DB?

[portets43]

zeitgeistmovie.com

[stevea]

zeitgeistmovie.com

Ugh - my brain needs a thorough washing and sanitizing after that drivel.

[jospoortvliet]

It is unfortunate many here don't seem to understand what Zeitgeist is all about. Not so strange, neither did I until I spoke with one of the Zeitgeist developers at the Gran Canaria Desktop Summit. After I understood what it is supposed to do, I contacted the Strigi and Nepomuk developers (who were already talking to the tracker developers) and something nice is growing there ;-)

http://dot.kde.org/2009/07/09/cooperation-during-gran-canaria-desktop-summit

[Logics]

Why the negativity? Especially from those who are fighting for choice! So you think that to support choice, Zeitgeist should not be installed by default? Okay, neither should Nautilus, Firefox, Evolution, Thunderbird, OpenOffice.org, AbiWord Gnome, KDE or XFCE!

Somethings have to be installed by default to make the system usable out of the box or perhaps you prefer the Gentoo distro where you pick everything as you install for three days! If Gnome chooses to have ZG installed by default, then you can choose to uninstall it just like you can uninstall Fx, Tb, Nl, AW, OOo or anything else that you do not want, even Gnome!

To claim that true user choice means not installing by default means choosing a distro like Gentoo stage 1. Otherwise, you never have user choice.

And for all of you who say you do not need ZG, that is fine. You are highly organized people who use folders/subfolders and meaningful filenames so that nothing gets lost. Good for you! ZG is probably overkill for you guys but there are others! They live under the staircase and they hardly ever use folders/subfolders and a meaningful filename to them is only meaningful the day they first use it. They need ZG!

The alternative to that is for you to go to their homes and teach them how to properly use a file system for their own benefit with Best Practices whitepapers. Good luck with that. Until you complete your US tour, ZG will be needed.

Logics