A New Development Release Of GNOME Shell

[phoronix]

Phoronix: A New Development Release Of GNOME Shell

GNOME 3.0 will not be rolling out until the first half of 2010, but work is already underway on this major GNOME update that is the first to bring some radical changes in a long time. One of the major components of GNOME 3.0 is the GNOME Shell...

http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=NzQ5Mg

[Ikipou]

I have not seen the GNOME shell so I might be wrong, but from the description it seems to be copy of Plasma from KDE?

It would be nice to see at least one real new feature in GNOME 3. I have not seen any improvement of my desktop for a long long time :(.

[Dragoran]

I have not seen the GNOME shell so I might be wrong, but from the description it seems to be copy of Plasma from KDE?

Not at all.
It is a completely new user interface (not finalized yet), based on the clutter toolkit.

See:
http://www.gnome.org/~mccann/shell/mockups/20090808/shell-black2.png
http://www.gnome.org/~mccann/shell/mockups/20090630-demo/
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell

(First two links are mockups, the wikipage has some outdated screenshots)

[Pfanne]

the gnomeshell needs a "fullscreenize it all" feature!
it is really annoying, when you have to use fullscreen applications, that have to change your resolution, because your hardware is to slow( or for other reasons ;) )
so it would be useful if you could just start the application in a window and zoom into it, catching the mouse, blending out everything else and adjusting the mouse speed.
this way you could have any application in fullscreenmode without having to reset your resolution which is especially annoying if you have a smooth composited desktop and everything works great, but these fullscreen applications destroy everything ;)
the compiz enhanced zoom plugin kinda does something like that, but its more of a hack (especially the mouse catching).
thats a feature im missing with all the composited desktops...
people seem to focus on all the shiny effects of the composited desktop, but they seem to ignore the window managing advances they bring...

[Dragoran]

the gnomeshell needs a "fullscreenize it all" feature!
it is really annoying, when you have to use fullscreen applications, that have to change your resolution, because your hardware is to slow( or for other reasons ;) )
so it would be useful if you could just start the application in a window and zoom into it, catching the mouse, blending out everything else and adjusting the mouse speed.
this way you could have any application in fullscreenmode without having to reset your resolution which is especially annoying if you have a smooth composited desktop and everything works great, but these fullscreen applications destroy everything ;)
the compiz enhanced zoom plugin kinda does something like that, but its more of a hack (especially the mouse catching).
thats a feature im missing with all the composited desktops...
people seem to focus on all the shiny effects of the composited desktop, but they seem to ignore the window managing advances they bring...

For this to work reliably you need input redirection in X which is still not done (being worked on thought).

[Louise]

I wonder how much thought they have put into the name.

Gnome Shell ~ GnomeS hell

[whizse]

I wonder how much thought they have put into the name.

Gnome Shell ~ GnomeS hell

Heh, fortunately it's not something users will see. Much like you won't find "Metacity" anywhere in the menus :)

[thefirstm]

I wonder how much thought they have put into the name.

Gnome Shell ~ GnomeS hell

I agree :-)

[V!NCENT]

I have not seen the GNOME shell so I might be wrong, but from the description it seems to be copy of Plasma from KDE?
Lol absolutely not! The Plasma desktop is a desktop shell that uses SVG and OpenGL to draw widgets. The entire KDE desktop are just widgets inside of Plasma. Plasma is designed as the foundation and graphical shell that anyone can use to make their own desktop with. The only thing you need are widgets; taskbar, icons, etc.

The Gnome shell might have SVG (not sure) and OpenGL, but the Gnome shell is integrated with the WM and more static. The goal of the Gnome-shell is changing the way people manage their programs and files. It more or less a window manager and file manager in one and build on the existing foundation of Gnome 2.x. It's mostly recycled code.

A Flash video demonstration of the Gnome-shell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQUuH2dIFHM&feature=related

It's a really refreshing concept :)

[benmoran]

I just tried it out today for the first time, and I gotta say i'm impressed. I There are still a lot of unfinished things, but overall it's really usable. Working with multiple desktops is super easy and finally feels natural to me.

[urfe]

It's a really refreshing concept :)

What's so refreshing about losing basic usability? Adding a huge Activities launcher that covers huge portions of the screen (just search other videos of Gnome Shell and see how that Activities thing expands odver the workspaces), not being able to change workspaces with a single click, having to drag'n'drop applications from a workspace to another instead of a single key shortcut or click, not being able to set a vertical or horizontal stacking of workspaces, being GPU dependent without a non-GPU fallback, useless animations etc.

That's all eyecandy done without any usability studies.. Gnome 3 will be a disaster.

[Cyberdemon]

What's so refreshing about losing basic usability? Adding a huge Activities launcher that covers huge portions of the screen (just search other videos of Gnome Shell and see how that Activities thing expands odver the workspaces), not being able to change workspaces with a single click, having to drag'n'drop applications from a workspace to another instead of a single key shortcut or click, not being able to set a vertical or horizontal stacking of workspaces, being GPU dependent without a non-GPU fallback, useless animations etc.

That's all eyecandy done without any usability studies.. Gnome 3 will be a disaster.

100% agree.
Gnome Shell isn't the feature that gnome desktop needs.:(

[nanonyme]

That's all eyecandy done without any usability studies.. Gnome 3 will be a disaster.I'd consider the current state more of a pilot venture. Don't judge the actual release by it. :)

[Dragoran]

What's so refreshing about losing basic usability? Adding a huge Activities launcher that covers huge portions of the screen (just search other videos of Gnome Shell and see how that Activities thing expands odver the workspaces), not being able to change workspaces with a single click, having to drag'n'drop applications from a workspace to another instead of a single key shortcut or click, not being able to set a vertical or horizontal stacking of workspaces, being GPU dependent without a non-GPU fallback, useless animations etc.

That's all eyecandy done without any usability studies.. Gnome 3 will be a disaster.

First it no longer does that, second judging a project "a disaster" when it is in such an early state does not make much sense.

Read the design document to see how it is supposed to look like / work in the end: http://www.gnome.org/~mccann/shell/design/GNOME_Shell-20090705.pdf

Also the non GPU (you mean opengl) fallback is metacity+gnome-panel (they aren't going away)

[V!NCENT]

What's so refreshing about losing basic usability?
If you want 'basic functionality' then use XFCE. If you want the most functionality then use KDE. Gnome has never been about functionality anyway; it's about easy to use.


Adding a huge Activities launcher that covers huge portions of the screen (just search other videos of Gnome Shell and see how that Activities thing expands odver the workspaces), not being able to change workspaces with a single click, having to drag'n'drop applications from a workspace to another instead of a single key shortcut or click, not being able to set a vertical or horizontal stacking of workspaces,[...]
Only when you click on it. But really, did you thought about "hey I'm going to check my email"(activity) or "Hey I'm gonna turn on my computer and click on the firefox icon so that I could browse with tiny buttons to phoronix and then react to posts here with the reply button"("basic functionality")? The Gnome shell is modeled after human thinking and not towards the structure of a device.

[...]being GPU dependent without a non-GPU fallback, useless animations etc.
Next thing you know is that they are going to make programs that also depend on a CPU and RAM! Dude every computer has a GPU. And these animations are for clarity, so they are not useless. They actually serve the very purpose of the Gnome desktop: easy to use, understand and learn.

That's all eyecandy done without any usability studies.. Gnome 3 will be a disaster.
It will be more than fit for it's purpose and therefore a huge leap forward. The glass is not always half empty... Get a little joy in your life

[urfe]

But it is a disaster. For users like me, who don't like it when the abundance of eyecandy, animation effects and application menus are intruding and constantly modifiend the entire desktop you're using. That's absurd.

Gnome Shell is a nice addition, but for another type of users. I've used Gnome for 7 years but 3 is just not what I expected. And I know that gnome-panel will still be around, but it's not the future and they will deprecate it soon enough...

[V!NCENT]

But it is a disaster. For users like me, who don't like it when the abundance of eyecandy, animation effects and application menus are intruding and constantly modifiend the entire desktop you're using. That's absurd.
Do you have a disability related to learning? That's no pun intended!

I've used Gnome for 7 years but 3 is just not what I expected. And I know that gnome-panel will still be around, but it's not the future and they will deprecate it soon enough...
If you have been able to use Linux back in 2002 then that means that you are not stupid. Why can't you learn XFCE? It can be moddeled to look just like Gnome. It also uses GTK. All the Gnome apps and volume managers etc just work on XFCE too and it's even a lot faster.

You learn a new GUI everytime you get a new phone, tv, dvd-player, etc etc. Sow does it really matter if you could also use KDE4 for example? There are also a lot o0f positive things about other DE's...

[urfe]

If you want 'basic functionality' then use XFCE. If you want the most functionality then use KDE. Gnome has never been about functionality anyway; it's about easy to use.

So functionality is not one of the main criteria for a working desktop? We can't have both?


Only when you click on it. But really, did you thought about "hey I'm going to check my email"(activity) or "Hey I'm gonna turn on my computer and click on the firefox icon so that I could browse with tiny buttons to phoronix and then react to posts here with the reply button"("basic functionality")? The Gnome shell is modeled after human thinking and not towards the structure of a device.

Have you seen the Applications menu? Why do you need:
1 click on Activities
2 - animation - (expose-like effect)
3 click on more to see all current registered menu items
4 - get a menu that covers all your workspaces -
5 find what you were looking for?

Just look at it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MkBSF4I5lw

Easy to use? What if I was reading some instructions of how to launch a specific applications from a website? I won't be able to read the text next step (in the tutorial) as soon as I press Activities -> The workspace will be resized so something smaller. Even if I set a huge font in firefox, just so that I'll be able to read it, the expanding activities menu will cover most of my screen as soon as I want a detailed look of it.


Next thing you know is that they are going to make programs that also depend on a CPU and RAM! Dude every computer has a GPU. And these animations are for clarity, so they are not useless.


We don't have a working GPU backend for cairo but you agree that pushing an entire desktop that needs GPU for nice animations only (!) is sound? And that assuming that the drivers provided by nvidia, ati and the community will all work fine.


Edit: I know that what I've tried so far is only pre-alpha and that things can change. What I disagree with, is that cover-all concept of the activities menu. Maybe other applets will be able to replace it - that's not the point.

[thefirstm]

GNOME get more and more like the dreaded M@c each day....

[BlackStar]

But it is a disaster. For users like me, who don't like it when the abundance of eyecandy, animation effects and application menus are intruding and constantly modifiend the entire desktop you're using. That's absurd.

Gnome Shell is a nice addition, but for another type of users. I've used Gnome for 7 years but 3 is just not what I expected. And I know that gnome-panel will still be around, but it's not the future and they will deprecate it soon enough...

You are speaking in the past tense, as if Gnome 3 was released already. Wait until it's ready before judging it, as a 7-year Gnome user you owe the Gnome developers at least that much respect.

I've been a Gnome user for 6 years and throughout this time Gnome has steadily improved without losing its roots. Seriously, the biggest "regression" I have hit is the removal of the font:/// handler in nautilus - now compare that with KDE 4. :)

Personally, I trust the Gnome developers to deliver a 3.0 that will maintain this tradition. It is way too early to judge Gnome shell.

[V!NCENT]

So functionality is not one of the main criteria for a working desktop? We can't have both?
It is well known that Gnome often doesn't get new features because it's too difficult for the user. Please, get your head out of the sand.

Have you seen the Applications menu? Why do you need:
1 click on Activities
2 - animation - (expose-like effect)
3 click on more to see all current registered menu items
4 - get a menu that covers all your workspaces -
5 find what you were looking for?
It's the entire easy to understand approach towards "I want to edit a file." and "I want to browse the web" that needs to get a little into you face because it's an important and big part of the usability philosophy. It's the Gnome's new idea of using a computer, instead of using a DE. A user should never need to think about the DE. The user should think about the tasks that he or she wants to accomplish on a computer today and not what fucking button to click. This is also touch screen heaven. Please also look a little at the positive part? Gnome is for people that do not want and need to understand how a computer works, just like you would not want to be forced to know how you car works in detail from the inside out. <_<'

The activity bar is only shown when you click on it... It's only there to launch apps. Have YOU looked at Gnome-shell yourself?

And what is T?
Software evolves. Buy a 5$ GPU that does have working 3D drivers in Linux -_-' But maybe you have to time to provide 2D code? If not then just shut up and fuck of, really. Change can be positive too.

[thefirstm]

now compare that with KDE 4. :)

Are you talking about 4.0 specifically, or 4.x? KDE 4.2 and 4.3 are just as good as, if not better than, any version of KDE 3.x or GNOME has ever been.

[nanonyme]

Imo it's a very good thing gnome-shell exists no matter whether it dies or not. Software developers are all too scared to try out new concepts as is, just look at the UI's nowadays. They're all the same on every damn operating system. Why not stand up to the challenge of trying to design the next generation's UI that everyone else will try to copy when it's done? Even if it fails, it gives important experience in that the direction obviously isn't a good one and the next attempt will have to go into yet another. Change is good.

[V!NCENT]

Imo it's a very good thing gnome-shell exists no matter whether it dies or not. Software developers are all too scared to try out new concepts as is, just look at the UI's nowadays. They're all the same on every damn operating system. Why not stand up to the challenge of trying to design the next generation's UI that everyone else will try to copy when it's done? Even if it fails, it gives important experience in that the direction obviously isn't a good one and the next attempt will have to go into yet another. Change is good.
Nailed it! Not only GUI's but computers too. Everthing is so rusted together in place and copied to death. When did we lose the innovation? Oh wait... Micro-... yeah >.<

[Apopas]

If not then just shut up and fuck of, really. Change can be positive too.
I agree 1000% with all of your statements but everyone has different views, we (the Linux guys) know that better than everyone and because of that he have so many options. So to insult in such a way someone other's views is at least unexcusable.

[Pfanne]

For this to work reliably you need input redirection in X which is still not done (being worked on thought).

yeah i know, but until you have redirection you can try to do it the hacky way ;)
+ i think you might be able to do it with multiple cursors that are available with the next xserver release and mpx...

[urfe]

If not then just shut up and fuck of, really

Now that you insulted me several times I finally acknowledge that all my experiences and preferences regarding DEs and Gnome's future are wrong. How could I have ever dared to state that intrusive menus and resizings are disrupting the workflow on that desktop? Thank you, good sir.

[urfe]

Micro-... yeah >.<

Yes, let's blame it on Microsoft. Except that IEEE evaluated MS and said it's no. 1 in innovation (second year in a row). I guess this surely cannot be, I mean academic organizations surely have no clue...

http://ipbiz.blogspot.com/2009/01/ieee-gives-microsoft-top-score-for.html

[nanonyme]

Yes, let's blame it on Microsoft. Except that IEEE evaluated MS and said it's no. 1 in innovation (second year in a row). I guess this surely cannot be, I mean academic organizations surely have no clue...Actually it mostly said that Microsoft is the no. 1 in patents. Since they try to mostly patent everything probably including your mom, that's no wonder. It doesn't technically say anything about innovativity, especially in the US, unless you count in juridical innovativity.

[urfe]

Yes, I don't like patents either (ok, abusing patents).

The IEEE does more than that just counting patents, though. The biggest patten holder almost every yeas is IBM (they're also very proud of it, they kept mentioning it in Boblingen), for example, but they didn't get the first place, so there are other criteria.
There was another survey, also by IEEE (I don't know of any ACM survey), and MS was voted as the best partner of scientific research communities.

[urfe]

Yes, I don't like patents either (ok, abusing patents).

The IEEE does more than that just counting patents, though. The biggest patten holder almost every yeas is IBM (they're also very proud of it, they kept mentioning it in Boblingen), for example, but they didn't get the first place, so there are other criteria (most important, the scientific value of its patent portfolio).


There was another survey, also by IEEE (I don't know of any ACM survey), and MS was voted as the best partner of scientific research communities.

[nanonyme]

There was another survey, also by IEEE (I don't know of any ACM survey), and MS was voted as the best partner of scientific research communities.That'd probably be because they make a profit pretty much always and pour in tons of money to research communities even during recessions. ;)
Doesn't imply they're innovative, still.

[urfe]

The truth is that money is needed for most of the research, I agree (as that's my area. And we do Linux + embedded). I also know we had a lot of MS PR people calling us since the resession started ;) The survyes are older, though. 2007, 2008 etc.

I do agree that investing heavily into research communities is one way of getting a nice portofolio of innovative ideas that doesn't actually reflect a companys true value.
That said, I do trust IEEE and MS and I don't doubt that they have the funding for buying all the academic brains out there that are able to produce nice ideas. It's about money and not ideology.

[Apopas]

I don't doubt that they have the funding for buying all the academic brains out there that are able to produce nice ideas. It's about money and not ideology.
But still the community of opensource have more guys around. But seriously, what important innovation did MS do the last year?

[nanonyme]

The truth is that money is needed for most of the research, I agree (as that's my area. And we do Linux + embedded). I also know we had a lot of MS PR people calling us since the resession started ;) The survyes are older, though. 2007, 2008 etc.They don't afaik do that much charity though, they invest in research because they predict they can make a profit by getting to share the results. It's a bit like have a lab full of brilliant scientists and the faculty head gets his name in every released paper for doing nothing at all. :3 (except funneling money that other people invest in the research scientists below him do) Would you call the faculty head innovative? Or is it just the scientists?

[urfe]

That's excatly what I said :). Except all companies to this.

[deanjo]

That's excatly what I said :). Except all companies to this.

Heh, even a lot of academics are ran with the idea of gaining funding. The end result of a lot academic research is to simply find more ways of generating revenue.

[spykes]

I'm impatient to test Gnome Shell and Mutter, I hope this will be enough for me, thus I will finally get rid of Compiz Fusion.
Not that I dislike it, but it's still not has stable as it should be for a regular use.

[Apopas]

I'm impatient to test Gnome Shell and Mutter, I hope this will be enough for me, thus I will finally get rid of Compiz Fusion.
Not that I dislike it, but it's still not has stable as it should be for a regular use.
I keep reading that compiz is not stable enough. Seriously I wonde what's the problem? All the versions 0.8.x worked perfectly for me for everyday use. :confused:

[spykes]

I keep reading that compiz is not stable enough. Seriously I wonde what's the problem? All the versions 0.8.x worked perfectly for me for everyday use. :confused:

I'm using it every days on a machine that never reboots... After some days (or maybe weeks), it happens to crash leaving my windows frozen without decoration.
Even if I just need to restart Compiz to recover my desktop (which is quite easy through the fusion-icon menu), it's always a painful situation.
It may be due to a memory leak in a particular plugin, I don't know...
Anyway it's still not as rock-solid as I would expect it to be.

[nanonyme]

Heh, even a lot of academics are ran with the idea of gaining funding. The end result of a lot academic research is to simply find more ways of generating revenue.There are concerns in academia though that profit-centeredness is killing out the general research whose purpose isn't to output a product but simply improve our understanding on things and further science. Accepting money from companies doesn't come without a price.

[Apopas]

I'm using it every days on a machine that never reboots... After some days (or maybe weeks), it happens to crash leaving my windows frozen without decoration.
Even if I just need to restart Compiz to recover my desktop (which is quite easy through the fusion-icon menu), it's always a painful situation.
It may be due to a memory leak in a particular plugin, I don't know...
Anyway it's still not as rock-solid as I would expect it to be.
You use the latest version?

[deanjo]

There are concerns in academia though that profit-centeredness is killing out the general research whose purpose isn't to output a product but simply improve our understanding on things and further science. Accepting money from companies doesn't come without a price.

Ya, I see that. Sad part is that academic research grants are pressured to produce results. Same thing happens in software development in many cases open or not. There are also some really stupid grants out there that I'm sure are just given out for the sake of it. I recall a few years the Provincial Gov't of BC giving a large 2 million dollar grant to a fishery study so they could put a TV underwater to teach salmon fry to avoid bears by showing a looping video of bears scooping out salmon during spawning.

[Apopas]

I recall a few years the Provincial Gov't of BC giving a large 2 million dollar grant to a fishery study so they could put a TV underwater to teach salmon fry to avoid bears by showing a looping video of bears scooping out salmon during spawning.
:confused:
At least this is innovative...

[L33F3R]

lol wut. That sounds like something the soviets would come up with.

[Apopas]

lol wut. That sounds like something the soviets would come up with.
The salmon farming is actually much larger in Canada rather than Russia.

[deanjo]

:confused:
At least this is innovative...

lol, ya I bet $500 went to the tv and the rest went to the "beer fund".

EDIT: Come to think of it, being in BC the balance probably went to their "wacky weed" fund.

[L33F3R]

lol, ya I bet $500 went to the tv and the rest went to the "beer fund".

EDIT: Come to think of it, being in BC the balance probably went to their "wacky weed" fund.

beer fund or weed fund, i wish i lived in BC :D