M$ is competing with Linux [Archive]

Svartalf

09-24-2009, 12:31 PM

If this new competition from Microsoft is any indication, I don't think Linux will be used by many people in the future.
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9392/linuxie8.png

I'd say with competition like that, they're not going to be the one people use in a couple of years... It might not be Linux, but... ;)

whizse

09-24-2009, 01:57 PM

who the shit is gunna download ie8 from an advertisement?

I will! (Only so that I can run Google Chrome Frame in it, using Wine, aand theme it to look like OS X!) :p

RealNC

09-24-2009, 02:10 PM

Well, "off topic ads" also exist here on Phoronix. For example, on the main page, in the left-bottom panel, in the "Featured links" box, you see "Free Trial for Anonymous Surfing Service". That takes you to http://www.gotrusted.com which is a Windows and Mac-only product:

http://i38.tinypic.com/33w1ttt.png

nanonyme

09-24-2009, 04:45 PM

I sure as hell wouldn't. I think MS bought some ads referencing Linux because they're running scared.I'd expect them not to care that much. Call me a cynic but I suspect a fake, yet again.

Svartalf

09-25-2009, 01:48 PM

I'd expect them not to care that much. Call me a cynic but I suspect a fake, yet again.

Considering that the evidence given in the Comes Anti-Trust trial indicates that they DO care quite a bit and their estimates put usage of Linux somewhere quite a bit higher than the figures that IDC and their ilk imply (Not to mention a bit of insider scuttlebutt I can't fully disclose... :D).

Now, as for this, perhaps it's a fake, perhaps it's not- in the end, though, your call of "not caring" isn't sufficient to call it one. ;)

Hephasteus

09-26-2009, 10:37 PM

Couple things. Microsoft keeps throwing out un named patents at the open source community. This is obviously a fake out scare tactict. If they do have these patents revealing them would like set off a flurry of antitrust suits against the patent office. So they use that tactic like some boogey man in the closet. Not exactly art of war stuff. If they did pull those out it would probably go something like this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOa7sLXv_bY&feature=related

Second. So much of sales is now business. They are hawking $30 copies of windows 7 all over the college community and turning their head to fishy 30 and 45 dollar key sales going on all over the place. Business is done this year. It won't get new budgets till next march and april. So you can pretty much forget a windows 7 flood for quite a while.

Third they yap and yap and yap about everybody stealing windows all over the world and blah blah blah. Which just isn't TRUE. It's used far less world wide than anyone at Microsoft would like to admit. Mostly because it isn't secure. Do you really think the chinese would allow 300 400 million computers to use stuff with THIS in it.

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/5/5263/1.html

And after you read that you'll understand why all the fighting and fussing over default browsers. Windows 7 is going to hit the world market like a disease. It will be poked and prodded before anyone touches it.

nanonyme

09-27-2009, 04:57 AM

Third they yap and yap and yap about everybody stealing windows all over the world and blah blah blah. Which just isn't TRUE. It's used far less world wide than anyone at Microsoft would like to admit. Mostly because it isn't secure. Do you really think the chinese would allow 300 400 million computers to use stuff with THIS in itGuess it's mostly gamers who are pirating Windows (and their games). As they say, Linux is no threat to Windows as a gaming platform, pirated Windows is.

Hephasteus

09-27-2009, 10:24 PM

Guess it's mostly gamers who are pirating Windows (and their games). As they say, Linux is no threat to Windows as a gaming platform, pirated Windows is.

Rent for a small place in china is 50 bucks a month US 450 yuan. Would you pop 300 to 600 bucks for a game?

thefirstm

09-27-2009, 10:46 PM

Guess it's mostly gamers who are pirating Windows (and their games). As they say, Linux is no threat to Windows as a gaming platform, pirated Windows is.

Linux actually has an extreme amount of potential as a gaming platform, if the major game studios would just utilize it.

L33F3R

09-27-2009, 10:58 PM

if people can steal, they will steal. You dont get caught, that simple. Even up here its legal (for now) to a certain extent.

That leads open a whole new can of worms. This is why companies use DRM. If i had to make a rough estimate I would say that about 30% of people who steal dont know how to perform the basics of patching a game's securom and that forces a small number of them to buy the product.

As a gaming platform, sure linux has potential. But it doesn't have DX and X11 still sucks.

thefirstm

09-27-2009, 11:16 PM

As a gaming platform, sure linux has potential. But it doesn't have DX and X11 still sucks.

Who needs DirectX? OpenGL FTW! It can do everything DirectX can do, and it is available for all platforms. And X11 does not suck. It is not perfect, but it isn't bad.

L33F3R

09-27-2009, 11:26 PM

Who needs DirectX?
Just about anyone who makes a game on windows or xbox apparently.

thefirstm

09-28-2009, 07:25 AM

Just about anyone who makes a game on windows or xbox apparently.

I didn't ask who Uses it, but who Needs it.

L33F3R

09-28-2009, 08:07 AM

thats exactly who NEEDS it. with the xbox, you NEED it. if your engine doesnt support OGL (such as UE3) then you NEED it. Its not worth it for them to code up an OGL pipe when the majority of users are windows. Even if they do manage a PS3 port its not hard to assume that it would be riddled with cell nuggets (citation needed).

More then OGL or X11, ATI and Intel drivers suck. :D

thefirstm

09-28-2009, 08:32 AM

But the only reason that the Xbox360 does not support OGL is because of a Microsoft-imposed Microsoft-only limitation. Everything that can be done in DirectX can also be done in OpenGL. No one needs DirectX, they simply choose to use it.

L33F3R

09-28-2009, 10:56 AM

But the only reason that the Xbox360 does not support OGL is because of a Microsoft-imposed Microsoft-only limitation.

case and point

thefirstm

09-28-2009, 12:53 PM

Hephasteus

09-30-2009, 02:41 AM

If the game designers would only see the light and release OpenGL games, then a majority of platforms (everything but Xbox360) would be supported, and the Xbox360 would lose market share and die, just like it should.

Linux is messing with Simple Direct Layer as it's version of Direct X. It would hardly be considered top shelf platform for most game studios but could get pretty advanced with a lot of effort. Just judging by how long it's took linux to get good sound and video and device support I wouldn't hold my breath. Redo's of old games seem to do well on it though.

thefirstm

09-30-2009, 06:47 AM

Linux is messing with Simple Direct Layer as it's version of Direct X. It would hardly be considered top shelf platform for most game studios but could get pretty advanced with a lot of effort. Just judging by how long it's took linux to get good sound and video and device support I wouldn't hold my breath. Redo's of old games seem to do well on it though.

Don't forget about OpenAL. Also don't forget that both SDL and OpenAL are cross-platform, so developers could make Windows games with them too. That would greatly ease the process of porting them to Linux.

Svartalf

09-30-2009, 03:45 PM

Just about anyone who makes a game on windows or xbox apparently.

X-Box would be the only item that applies there. For OpenGL, it's even a Windows target...and a variant of OpenGL ES is available for PS3 and Wii... Now, some developers will not use that; they'll use a closer to metal answer for PS3 and Wii, but it's available all the same for most stuff anyhow.

Food for thought.

Svartalf

09-30-2009, 03:46 PM

Don't forget about OpenAL. Also don't forget that both SDL and OpenAL are cross-platform, so developers could make Windows games with them too. That would greatly ease the process of porting them to Linux.

In the case of OpenAL, it's the baseline lib for things like UT2k4, and others like it.

SDL is somewhat less useful in that it's a shim on top of DirectInput, etc.- but using it would allow you to target an insane number of platforms, esp. if your game is 2D.

Svartalf

09-30-2009, 03:51 PM

case and point

So, the answer would be to make an abstraction layer for the things MS imposes upon you such as D3D, and then you don't need to worry about piddling things like only being able to support Windows/X-Box.

D3D isn't in the promising new space, mobile devices.

D3D isn't in the MacOS world.

D3D is only in the netbook world inasmuch as you have x86 XP/Vista models- if you're talking the new "smartbooks", etc. that're about
to show up, you can forget D3D.

D3D isn't on PS3 or Wii.

D3D is only on Windows and on the #2 (by units actually shipped) 'next gen' console.

If I was a studio, I'd make sure I could target the last one, but then worry about making sure I could target all the other line items I listed. But then, not all of them are thinking that way...yet.

Svartalf

09-30-2009, 04:00 PM

Linux is messing with Simple Direct Layer as it's version of Direct X.

DirectX is actually NOT a unified API in the slightest as MS would have you believe.

There's...

DirectPlay (networking...deprecated)
DirectInput (input...heh...)
DirectSound (No longer really available- sound...)
DirectDraw (2D rendering...)
Direct3D

Now...for Linux...in the same order of the above...

Grapple
SDL
SDL/OpenAL (Simple/3D sound..)
SDL
OpenGL

Heh... The actual rules of the game is perversely simple in Linux. Better yet, if you code with the above for those things you need in a game, you end up with something that's targetable to MacOS, Linux, mobile devices, etc. And, it's actually rather easy to make binaries using this and a couple of other tools- and the code tends to be at least slightly less opaque and verbose when compared to DirectX coding.

The MAIN reason that Linux doesn't have the studios making games for it is a fear of the unknown- they don't know how difficult/easy it is to do and they haven't the foggiest the market picture is. It's NOTHING to do with "advanced" APIs- and DirectX really isn't all that advanced or easy to code for.

nanonyme

09-30-2009, 04:18 PM

The MAIN reason that Linux doesn't have the studios making games for it is a fear of the unknown- they don't know how difficult/easy it is to do and they haven't the foggiest the market picture is. It's NOTHING to do with "advanced" APIs- and DirectX really isn't all that advanced or easy to code for.Then again, the guys who design the DirectX games might only be fluent with DirectX and might need serious extra education to learn the API's you listed. Then again, the companies could hire completely new people who are fluent with those API's and have made succesful and innovative games before using those platforms. They probably would feel more comfortable if the they had different alternatives to having rookies or re-educating veterans (and possibly wasting resources doing so) when venturing into a new market.

yotambien

09-30-2009, 04:54 PM

When the last OpenGL specification was out there was quite a bit of outrage from some developers saying it wouldn't fulfill their needs, that D3D is so much better and that basically they were forgotten and left with a suboptimal tool. If I remember correctly the CAD industry was named a few times as holding some responsibility in the way the especification was engendered. And the CAD industry is suposedly one of the reasons why AMD develops fglrx. What are the visible names behind this CAD business? And why does its way of doing things collide with that of game developers? I seem to remember something about backwards compatibility in the spec...or something.

Regarding the specification being a failure, I don't know whether the people complaining were a tiny and loud minority or what, but I wonder what is the true value behind it all...Surely targeting Linux and Mac exclusively doesn't sound like the best idea for a new game, but if you can get the three of them (plus other platforms?) for a little extra effort I don't see why it isn't being done. Or is it not just "a little extra effort"?

L33F3R

09-30-2009, 08:43 PM

X-Box would be the only item that applies there. For OpenGL, it's even a Windows target...

what i was trying to say is, pc game dev's dont use opengl anymore regardless of how wonderful it is (for reasons i dont know). i want to see another AAA game that uses opengl on windows. I really do. But they are becoming far and few between. :(

BhaKi

09-30-2009, 10:09 PM

X11 still sucks.

It doesn't. Divert your blame towards undocumented hardware and buggy closed-source drivers.

L33F3R

09-30-2009, 10:44 PM

It doesn't. Divert your blame towards undocumented hardware and buggy closed-source drivers.

you sound like an ati OSS user. Once in a while some of us need more then a fast bare minimum. For others, basic 2D is perfectly adequate.

X11 still sucks.

Svartalf

10-01-2009, 09:57 AM

what i was trying to say is, pc game dev's dont use opengl anymore regardless of how wonderful it is (for reasons i dont know). i want to see another AAA game that uses opengl on windows. I really do. But they are becoming far and few between. :(

Uh... You'd be wrong in that regard.

If they use an engine, the odds are good that they can make an OpenGL game.

If not, your generalization is fairly false- I offer: Caster 3D (http://www.elecorn.com/caster3d/) as at least ONE example of that statement being wrong (Before you say anything about it not being AAA, Haze, a AAA title, was pretty much OpenGL as well...it just never saw the light of day on a PC for some reason. And I should know about it being OpenGL- I had to figure out why their E3 demo wouldn't work on AMD's drivers as a sustaining engineering task ages ago...). Moreover, if you're doing handheld 3D games, you're using OpenGL, like it or not as ES has been decided upon as the API of choice there.