AMD loosing money, uncertain free software development funding?

[xiando]

AMD reported a loss of $128 million (-18c EPS) in the third-quarter and a top-line decrease from $1.8 billion q3 last year to $1.4 billion this year. I hope they will be able to keep funding the free radeon xorg driver in the future.. things seem to be going in the right direction, but they've still got a long way to go before we start seeing black numbers on the bottom line.

[bridgman]

Did anybody in the semi business *not* decrease year-over-year in this period ?

[Zhick]

I think you overestimate the influence of ATi linux customers on AMD/ATis profits. I think ATi is probably the only part of AMD that's still making profits anyway, and this should continue with their excellent new 5xxx series.
I think the reason that AMD loses money is that they try to stay competitive with Intel on a price/performance level on their cpus.

[RealNC]

Did anybody in the semi business *not* decrease year-over-year in this period ?

Intel :D

[homerhomer]

I like Intel and AMD both, I hope they continue to keep in business, because it's best for us consumers.

[bridgman]

Intel :D

Nope, their revenues were down 15% 3Q09 vs 3Q08. Most companies are up relative to 2Q09 but down relative to 3Q08.

Relative to a year ago everyone's unit sales are up but revenues are down. You'd think there had been an economic crisis or something.

[RealNC]

I was looking at the latest info for Q3: Revenue of $9.4 billion and a 33 cent EPS. This was the largest increase from Q2 to Q3 for the last 30 years.

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20091013corp.htm?iid=pr1_releasepri_20091013r

Crisis? What crisis? :D

[bridgman]

You're looking at quarter-over-quarter results (where everyone is up), but xiando was looking at year-over-year results (where everyone is down).

It's more useful if you look at the same period for both companies.

[RealNC]

And red numbers go over to AMD :D

[bridgman]

Not if we're still talking about revenue -- I think AMD was up 18% quarter over quarter, about the same as Intel.

Both companies had lower revenues than a year ago.

Or did we change the subject again ?

[RealNC]

Not sure. "AMD reported a loss of $128 million (-18c EPS)." Does that mean AMD actually lost money instead of making any?

[duby229]

Not if we're still talking about revenue -- I think AMD was up 18% quarter over quarter, about the same as Intel.

Both companies had lower revenues than a year ago.

Or did we change the subject again ?

I think what RealNC is talking about is that AMD overall is showing a loss in this quarter. What I dont think he realizes though is the reason why that is. If you actually look at AMD's financial report it becomes clear that AMD has paid back a whole lot more debt than they added.

I think it is a bit misleading for people to say that AMD is losing money, when in fact each of the last few quarters AMD has paid back more debt than they created that quarter. Even though the books may say they lost so many millions of dollars this quarter the truth is that the overall company wide debt is less than it was last quarter.

[joshuapurcell]

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20091015-716579.html

AMD actually did better than expected in their recent earnings. I'm glad to see this company doing well if these latest earnings are an indication of a future trend. That means there will continue to be a strong competitor to Intel, which is good for everyone, including Intel fanboys, because it means more choices for the consumer and less cost.

[tmpdir]

Dudes nice try, but come on... also read the stuff below the headlines.

My money is on bridg :D

[energyman]

And I did my part! First my current A770 based board, then only a few month ago my PhenomII 955... yeah!

[energyman]

oh - and whoever is responsible for the pm features in Phenom2 - I want to shake their hands. With my old X2 6000 I had to set 'performance' before starting a game or it would suck. With the Phenom I don't need to anymore. The differences are too small. So f* yeah! And despite the fact that both have the same TDP the Phenom 2 runs cooler even under load, so triple F* yeah!

[Veerappan]

Not only is AMD paying back debt, which is leading to lower overall numbers, but there's also the fact that they're combining design and manufacturing numbers for both AMD and Global Foundries.

AMD/ATI made money in the product design business, but Global Foundries operated at a net loss for the quarter. The good thing about that is that Global Foundries is able to pick up future contracts from outside customers to manufacture stuff other than AMD CPUs, which means better fab utilization for Global, and hopefully more revenues/profit. And I guess it wouldn't be impossible to imagine the ATI division transferring some of its own manufacturing from TSMC to Global's bulk silicon process once its up and running.

Yes, it will possibly require some redesign if they do this with an existing chip, but if they start designing their next architecture with manufacturing at Global Foundries in mind, it might be feasible. Keeps more of the money in house that way at least, instead of giving it to TSMC...

I'm not sure who's going to use the Global Foundries SOI process in the near future (besides AMD of course). It's not that it can't be done, but it seems as if most people design with bulk processes in mind, not SOI, and those that do already have their own manufacturing facilities. Anyone who knows more about this can feel free to correct me, I'm just going off what I remember from various tech sites detailing the Global Foundries spin-off and subsequent announcements.

[energyman]

Glofo got a nice deal with ARM, Apple is buying massive amounts of 48XX cards. And when you can pay of 130m debt paying 50m then you are doing something right ;) Future is not that bleak. They are the only ones selling Dx11 hw at the moment and AMD server cpus are doing pretty well.

[pvtcupcakes]

And I did my part! First my current A770 based board, then only a few month ago my PhenomII 955... yeah!

Did my part too by buying the super cheap Athlon II X4 620 ($99) on Saturday. :p

Oh, and I bought a motherboard with that with an AMD chipset which will have my 4850 hooked up to it. :cool:

[rbmorse]

Stock is up about 1/3 over last year, too (yea! another $25/share and I'll be even).

I did my part...I bought a Sapphire HD 5850 card. I'm hopeful the vendor (Amazon/Tiger Direct) will actually get stock and ship it to me, someday.

[pedepy]

maybe i'm missing something here but .. is releasing technical specifications and working collaboratively with the open source community not cheaper than hiring extra staff to work extra hours on developing a closed sourced solution behind closed doors ?

[bridgman]

The costs are lower for an open source approach (although the difference are less than you might expect if you include the time of all the senior technical folks that need to be involved in reviews), but the financial risks are higher.

The problem is that for some markets you need the closed source driver *anyways*, so supporting open source development ends up as an additional cost, not a savings.

[Kano]

Well could you define "cost" per driver in % or $ like

x % win
y % fglrx
z % oss

I would guess oss is less then 1 % of the money ati spends for developing win drivers.

[energyman]

Well could you define "cost" per driver in % or $ like

x % win
y % fglrx
z % oss

I would guess oss is less then 1 % of the money ati spends for developing win drivers.

which would go nicely with the market share.

[Azultra]

The costs are lower for an open source approach (although the difference are less than you might expect if you include the time of all the senior technical folks that need to be involved in reviews), but the financial risks are higher.

The problem is that for some markets you need the closed source driver *anyways*, so supporting open source development ends up as an additional cost, not a savings.
Risks, additional costs, but paving the way to a saner world :)

[xiando]

which would go nicely with the market share.

I've disinfected four laptops with AMD ("ATI") graphics chips who were pre-infected with the Windows by electronics stores this month alone. The Windows "market share" is highly over-rated, it is really a question of counting people who are forced to pay for the Windows because it is bundled with hardware they buy or counting people who are actually using it. I also strongly suspect that the fglrx market share numbers are highly inflated as it is a piece of trash.

[elanthis]

I've disinfected four laptops with AMD ("ATI") graphics chips who were pre-infected with the Windows by electronics stores this month alone. The Windows "market share" is highly over-rated, it is really a question of counting people who are forced to pay for the Windows because it is bundled with hardware they buy or counting people who are actually using it.

And yet those sales figures don't count the number of people illegally downloading Windows. I know far, far, far more people who do that than who cripple their hardware by installing Linux and its barely-usable graphics drivers.

Point is, your Linux-over-Windows installations are not even a drop in the bucket compared to the number of untracked Windows installations out there.

[highlandsun]

And yet those sales figures don't count the number of people illegally downloading Windows. I know far, far, far more people who do that than who cripple their hardware by installing Linux and its barely-usable graphics drivers.

Point is, your Linux-over-Windows installations are not even a drop in the bucket compared to the number of untracked Windows installations out there.

This may be a dumb question, but what could an obviously pro-Windows user possibly find worthwhile about hanging out on a web site like phoronix.com which obviously has nothing to do with Windows?

[elanthis]

This may be a dumb question, but what could an obviously pro-Windows user possibly find worthwhile about hanging out on a web site like phoronix.com which obviously has nothing to do with Windows?

Look, dude, there is a huge difference between "pro Windows" and "realizes that Windows has clear and unarguable advantages over Linux to the average person." I know that can be a little hard to understand for people who define their life style based around freaking piece of software, but out here in Reality Land, getting defensive about an OS is just pathetic.

If you think Linux is any way a better OS for regular people than Windows, then you simply are totally disconnected from what regular people want out of a computer. People like us get excited about the ability to modify core OS components. Regular people are terrified of anything close to the idea of having to modify core OS components. People like us want flexible, configurable environments. Regular people want an environment that never, ever changes because change is confusing and they don't even really understand the basic concept of what a GUI button is, they just learn to "click that rectangle thing to make it go." People like us get excited when we see a hobby Open Source game project running on Open Source video drivers. Regular people think those hobby games look and play like shit, and think people who pay $200 for a graphics card they can't use because of lacking drivers are retards. People like us follow development forums and mailing lists and git repos because seeing development happen and playing with the latest changes is exciting. Regular people are terrified of any update, usually ignore updates, and stick with ancient software like Windows XP because that way they don't have to deal with change. People like us get excited by the release of a new distribution. Regular people get excited about being able to run the newest games like the Left 4 Dead 2 demo.

Windows sucks hard at quite a few things of its own. Many of those are things people like us really, really care about. Unfortunately for people like you who want to live in unicorn-sunshine-Linux-everywhere land, the things that Windows sucks at aren't the things regular people care about, while the things that Linux sucks at are the things regular people get upset over.

I love using Linux, but only when I don't have to use it for regular people stuff. I literally can't use it for a number of things, most of which are due to the pathetic state of the graphics stack. My Vista laptop with an Intel 3100 IGP gets 5x the performance on a stupid-simple OpenGL app for school than what the Linux box with a freaking ATI HD4770 an do... and the Linux box renders things wrong, frequently locks up in X, or just gets random amounts of screen corruption.

Even if Linux had perfect graphics drivers, there's the issue with software installation -- namely, that it's near impossible for anybody who isn't a major mega nerd to do. Real people don't want to install the crap in the distro repositories. Little hint: Fallout 3 will never be in any distro's repository. Even in a hypothetical world where triple-A game titles were released completely as Free Software (and not 5 years after they are no longer relevant to the majority of people, like id's Quake code releases), no distro is going to include 4GB of data packages for a single application, much less 4GB of data packages each for thousands of applications. A real-person OS absolutely requires the ability to easily install third-party software, which the Linux distros go out of their way to make difficult, to the point where even fully Open Source apps have to be repackaged and redistributed not only for each distro but for each version of each distro. To think that the appliance model Linux is saddled with is acceptable is once again proof of a total disconnect with what real people want.

I write Fedora packages. Regular people either click an icon to install software or don't ever manage to get it installed ever. I'm a completely and utterly different class of user than regular people. The difference between me and most Linux users is that I realize that user class distinction exists instead of pretending that Linux is a great OS for everyone.

This site is focused on improving one of those huge short comings of Linux for regular people, namely graphics. I look forward to that day that my graphics projects not only compile on Linux but can actually run properly and at acceptable frame rates on Linux. That'll be a good day. It will only be one small step towards making Linux an everyman's OS though.

[amphigory]

Look, dude, there is a huge difference between "pro Windows" and "realizes that Windows has clear and unarguable advantages over Linux to the average person."Amen. One uses the best tool for the job... not the socially correct one. Windows or OS X is the best tool for the vast majority of users. After 11 years of Linux experience (circa Redhat 5) I'm still doing the configure-make-install tango to make my systems do what I want. No rational person would want to do that. ;-)

[Veerappan]

Look, dude, there is a huge difference between "pro Windows" and "realizes that Windows has clear and unarguable advantages over Linux to the average person." ... snip ...

Well said. The day that I can use a stock distro install to install/run any game/application I want to in Gnome/KDE/etc by popping in the CD, running the installer, and then going into my GUI menus to launch (and use it seamlessly) it will be the day that I switch completely.

Most of this, for me, is contingent upon Wine being perfectly supportive of Direct X 9/10/11/etc and having acceptable performance (within hardware limits) for all games, but the same goes for Office and other desktop applications. This would also depend upon my distribution of choice being able to accept native applications outside of its package management scheme.

Yes, you can download and install .deb/.rpm archives, but it puts the responsibility on the developer's shoulders to provide archives for all architectures/distributions. I guess it's part of the reason I like C#/Java as much as I do, since it negates a large amount of that issue. The fat binaries for *nix that were mentioned last week (from Ryan Gordon/icculus) are another nice addition where JIT isn't an option.

[highlandsun]

Look, dude, there is a huge difference between "pro Windows" and "realizes that Windows has clear and unarguable advantages over Linux to the average person." I know that can be a little hard to understand for people who define their life style based around freaking piece of software, but out here in Reality Land, getting defensive about an OS is just pathetic.


Wow. What a huge spew of blather in response to a simple 1 line question. Looks to me like you're the one who's defensive.


If you think Linux is any way a better OS for regular people than Windows, then you simply are totally disconnected from what regular people want out of a computer.


When I replaced WindowsXP with Ubuntu Jaunty on my fiancee's laptop, she was thrilled. Desktop responsiveness was faster and smoother, no more antivirus crap eating up resources, OpenOffice handled all her documents, all the things she needed her computer to do simply worked faster and better. Who's disconnected?

[yotambien]

Wow. What a huge spew of blather in response to a simple 1 line question. Looks to me like you're the one who's defensive.

When I replaced WindowsXP with Ubuntu Jaunty on my fiancee's laptop, she was thrilled. Desktop responsiveness was faster and smoother, no more antivirus crap eating up resources, OpenOffice handled all her documents, all the things she needed her computer to do simply worked faster and better. Who's disconnected?

Sine you don't seem to take very well long, argumented replies, I'll answer your last question in simple terms:

YOU.

[xiando]

If you think Linux is any way a better OS for regular people than Windows, then you simply are totally disconnected from what regular people want out of a computer. People like us get excited about the ability to modify core OS components. Regular people are terrified of anything close to the idea of having to modify core OS components. People like us want flexible, configurable environments. Regular people want an environment that never, ever changes because change is confusing and they don't even really understand the basic concept of what a GUI button is, they just learn to "click that rectangle thing to make it go." People like us get excited when we see a hobby Open Source game project running on Open Source video drivers. Regular people think those hobby games look and play like shit, and think people who pay $200 for a graphics card they can't use because of lacking drivers are retards. People like us follow development forums and mailing lists and git repos because seeing development happen and playing with the latest changes is exciting. Regular people are terrified of any update, usually ignore updates, and stick with ancient software like Windows XP because that way they don't have to deal with change. People like us get excited by the release of a new distribution. Regular people get excited about being able to run the newest games like the Left 4 Dead 2 demo.

Windows sucks hard at quite a few things of its own. Many of those are things people like us really, really care about. Unfortunately for people like you who want to live in unicorn-sunshine-Linux-everywhere land, the things that Windows sucks at aren't the things regular people care about, while the things that Linux sucks at are the things regular people get upset over.

I love using Linux, but only when I don't have to use it for regular people stuff. I literally can't use it for a number of things, most of which are due to the pathetic state of the graphics stack. My Vista laptop with an Intel 3100 IGP gets 5x the performance on a stupid-simple OpenGL app for school than what the Linux box with a freaking ATI HD4770 an do... and the Linux box renders things wrong, frequently locks up in X, or just gets random amounts of screen corruption.

Even if Linux had perfect graphics drivers, there's the issue with software installation -- namely, that it's near impossible for anybody who isn't a major mega nerd to do. Real people don't want to install the crap in the distro repositories. Little hint: Fallout 3 will never be in any distro's repository. Even in a hypothetical world where triple-A game titles were released completely as Free Software (and not 5 years after they are no longer relevant to the majority of people, like id's Quake code releases), no distro is going to include 4GB of data packages for a single application, much less 4GB of data packages each for thousands of applications. A real-person OS absolutely requires the ability to easily install third-party software, which the Linux distros go out of their way to make difficult, to the point where even fully Open Source apps have to be repackaged and redistributed not only for each distro but for each version of each distro. To think that the appliance model Linux is saddled with is acceptable is once again proof of a total disconnect with what real people want.

It seems apparent to me that what "real people" want very much depends on their age and their computer skills.

My mother bought a laptop about a year ago. She had never previously owned a computer. It came preinstalled with some Windows. I disinfected it and replaced it with Ubuntu. My mother is very happy with her computer and finds it very easy to use. She finds it easy to start Firefox and read the local newspapers. I gave a laptop with Ubuntu to the nice 60-something year old man across the hallway a few weeks ago. He had also never owned a computer before; yet he quickly got excited about being to read the local newspapers while eating his breakfast.

Most real people over 50 seem perfectly happy as long as their computer lets them suft the web and perhaps so a little IM, and most older people I know are very happy doing those things on the more user-friendly distros like Ubuntu.

I have no idea if this Windows thing sucks or not, but I have read rumors on the Internet that it's improved somewhat since Windows 98, but I do know that older people with no prior computer skills are generally very happy with Ubuntu as their OS. The situation is very different when it comes to people who are used to this Windows thing, they seem to get confused about the menu being on top of the screen and things like that. I generally recommend that they keep on using what they know IF they are happy with it.

AMD (NYSE: AMD) (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=amd) fell very nicely today. I still recommend being long-term short, but covering here and re-shorting at the first sign of unjust optimism could be profitable.

[highlandsun]

Sine you don't seem to take very well long, argumented replies, I'll answer your last question in simple terms:


And you're a moron. The original reply was far from well argumented.

His basic point seems to be that I and others around here don't represent the average userbase, and that the things that the average userbase cares about aren't well represented in Linux. But in fact, none of what he identifies as being "careabouts" reflect the average userbase.

The average PC user doesn't care about 3D games, only gaming zealots care. The average PC user doesn't buy $200 graphics cards. The average PC user doesn't write apps for OpenGL and doesn't care about 3rd party apps.

Look at any Linux distro and examine the list of software that the distro packagers have chosen to include - where did that software come from? It was written because somebody saw a need for it. Why is that software bundled in the distro? Because the distro packager saw that this need was a common need across their userbase. The fact is, Linux distros have grown to the size they are today because they contain what average users want and need. Gamers are only a tiny (lunatic) fringe of the computer using population. People who care about 3D graphics performance are only a tiny fringe. Everyone else just wants their word processor, spreadsheet, and movie and MP3 players to work, and for the most part, that's already a done deal.

[amphigory]

Ha! Iconoclasm and heresy! The Penguin will rule with an iron fist and evil Microsoft will be banished to the ninth circle of hell. All hail the Penguin!

Seriously, the "Linux is great for everyone" fans are neglecting one little detail. They are providing the technical support. Grandma is not installing her own software or configuring her system. There's the rub.

[energyman]

I think my mom is a regular user. She knows nothing about computer or OS.

She uses her laptop to: read a bit of wikipedia. Check email once in a while but mostly to look at pictures, playing mahjong or hearts and listen to the occasional mp3.

My sister uses her computer similarly, just add 'flash games' to the mix. And some sites like 'Studivz'.

These are typical users. Windows, Linux, Macos are all fine for them, because more than starting firefox or their favorite simple game is too much for them. They don't care about package managers or security or hardware support. Their stuff must work, end of story.

And all three can do that for them.

[xiando]

Ha! Iconoclasm and heresy! The Penguin will rule with an iron fist and evil Microsoft will be banished to the ninth circle of hell. All hail the Penguin!

Seriously, the "Linux is great for everyone" fans are neglecting one little detail. They are providing the technical support. Grandma is not installing her own software or configuring her system. There's the rub.

That "little detail" is irrelevant to "everyone" as in most real people. It is highly important to The Corporation (http://torrentchannel.com/NWO/The_Corporation) but it means nothing to regular people. They call some friend or relative when they need help, they do not call some expensive support-line.

It must also be mentioned that the fact that some corporation provides support as long as you pay them to do so applies to all software, GNU/Linux distributions as well as Windows. It even applies to Mac OS. If you pay Red Hat (NYSE: RHT) (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=RHT), who smoothly fell 3.15% today, for technical support then you get the technical support. If you sign a deal with a Linux Consultant corporation such as Redpill (http://www.redpill-linpro.com/) then you get support for any GNU/Linux distro and any GNU/Linux piece of software (they even have a "sendmail expert"). Corporations do sign such support deals. Private citizens do not. I am sure there are similar corporations who specialize on the Windows family, so there is no difference between Windows and GNU/Linux when it comes to support. If you are willing to pay for support then you get "professional" support, if you do not want to pay then you need to rely on your social network regardless of OS. If you do not have a social network then you probably do not need anyone to help you with your computer anyway.

[movieman]

Seriously, the "Linux is great for everyone" fans are neglecting one little detail. They are providing the technical support. Grandma is not installing her own software or configuring her system. There's the rub.

Grandma doesn't install Windows on her PC either... and if she does have Windows, her applications are probably six versions behind the current patch level and hence full of easily exploited security holes because she doesn't run six dozen random 'software updaters' for every little non-Microsoft app on the system.

IMHO the only reason why an 'average user' would need Windows over Linux is because they must run some weird or commercial Windows app with no equivalent for Linux, or because they want to play games. Otherwise a preinstalled Linux system with automated updates is about as easy as you can get; most average users want email, web browsing, word processing and a few other odds and ends that Linux can easily handle at a lower cost than Windows with substantially better security.

[RealNC]

Otherwise a preinstalled Linux system with automated updates is about as easy as you can get; most average users want email, web browsing, word processing and a few other odds and ends that Linux can easily handle at a lower cost than Windows with substantially better security.

Tell them that when support for their distro is dropped and they need to upgrade it.

[movieman]

Tell them that when support for their distro is dropped and they need to upgrade it.

Unlike Windows, where the Windows Gnomes creep into your house and install Windows 7 on your Vista machine while you're asleep?

Yeah, major version upgrades often suck, but they suck at least as bad in Windows. In fact, I don't know anyone who's admitted to ever upgrading a Windows PC to a new version of Windows except when they had to do so to ensure the software they wrote would work correctly after an upgrade.

[RealNC]

Windows XP, released in 2001, is still supported. You can't claim the same for Ubuntu 4.10, released 2004, 3 years later than XP.

[energyman]

well, you also pay a shitload of money for that support.

[RealNC]

Not really. This is about the "normal" user. Those always get some OEM with Windows pre-installed.

[yotambien]

It's funny how everytime it's claimed from the zealot camp that linux is ready for the masses, the 'typical', 'average', 'normal' user is a retarded who seems to have problems clicking an icon to launch Firefox, who just uses his computer to listen to some music and watch a video from time to time, a bit of IM and perhaps some office application on February the 29th...That, and relatives. Lots of them. Pretty dumb normally. Or extremely old. Or both.

Well, even funnier is that even if THIS was the 'normal use' scenario, linux STILL would fail miserably for the great public. I can hear them already. "Uh-oh, why isn't youtube working properly?", "I can't see this movie I downloaded off the web", "where are my DVD menus?", "why I can't do a video call to my aunt via Messenger?", "why is this fake Office making a horrible mess of my (precious) documents?", "why I have no audio in Skype?", "I bought this webcam yesterday and it doesn't work", "I can't use the SD card reader on my laptop" and so on. If I don't have any of those problems it's only because I learned how to find my way (*). I spent a good deal of my time fixing extremely annoying little things like these for the past 3 years. This is only acceptable if you somehow have masochistic inclinations and actually like these sort of stuff. For the rest of the world it's just a joke, and quite an absurd and scary one the very moment somebody says it's all for your Freedom.

But it gets much worse. The 'typical user' is a lie. There are as many usage scenarios as users out there. Saying that the 'typical user' doesn't do this or doesn't do that is short sighted and deceiving. Simply put, the enourmous amount of software available for Windows would not exist if there wasn't a demand for it. The 20000+ packages in Debian DO NOT represent an alternative for the vast majority. And of course then you have the professional use. I have my eyes open enough to realise that everybody around me uses Windows. Guess what, it works. I have no visible advantages over my colleagues by using linux. That _I_ feel more eficient using it does not mean that _they_ would too. Actually, the majority of them would run into many problems far more serious than those the average user would encounter. Moreover, some of them could not possibly continue their work if they were to make the switch.

So enough with the fanboism, please. There's a reason why linux has a ridiculous market share even though it's free (not as in beer, I don't get free beers anywhere). Don't deceive yourselves, the masses are NOT stupid, they have a very clear idea of what their needs are and what they want. Be sure that the very moment linux offers them what THEY need the flood will be unstoppable. Until them, we'll keep ourselves entertained talking about Gallium3D, KMS, ext4, KDE 4.2.3-alpha-squared, CONFIG_WORK_DAMMIT=Y, and the rest of the things nobody out there really cares about.


(*) Actually, the SD card reader doesn't work (in linux) and will never do, I don't use any office application, and I don't use MSN, so these don't count.

[highlandsun]

Ha! Iconoclasm and heresy! The Penguin will rule with an iron fist and evil Microsoft will be banished to the ninth circle of hell. All hail the Penguin!

Seriously, the "Linux is great for everyone" fans are neglecting one little detail. They are providing the technical support. Grandma is not installing her own software or configuring her system. There's the rub.

Not forgetting that at all. I was providing the technical support before I switched her to Linux too. Only now the support workload has gone down, because everything works.

For all those people talking about "my SD card doesn't work" blah blah blah - did you submit a bug report to your distro provider? Software only improves when users give useful feedback to the right people, to shine attention on the problem spots.

re: "free" software - nothing comes for free, everything has a price. The price of using Free Software is that, at a minimum, you owe the software developers prompt bug reports when you encounter a problem. If you want things to get better, that's the least you can do to help.

[RealNC]

You don't owe the developers anything if you're told "here, use Linux, it's better than Windows."

No, really, you owe them shit in that case. They beg you to use Linux, now you owe them? That's a thing those "Linux advocates" don't get. If you advocate something to people, don't you dare blame them afterwards. You told them to use it, and if they tell you "it sucks", you were just asking for it.

[yotambien]

For all those people talking about "my SD card doesn't work" blah blah blah - did you submit a bug report to your distro provider? Software only improves when users give useful feedback to the right people, to shine attention on the problem spots.

Out of the whole repertoire of idiotic things one can say to a linux newcomer, this must be pretty high up on the list. "Did you submit a bug report?" Useless, self-defeating and quite irritant, if you ask me. What does it really mean when somebody suggests to submit a bug report or--worse--asks whether one has already been submitted? Well, for starters--and this is positive--it means the acceptance of failure. If you resort to the bug report strategy you clearly recognise that something is not working as expected, and the problem should be dealt with by somebody more knowledgeable in the community hierarchy. Not all is positive, though. The obvious negative bit is that you still have the two pieces and somehow you have to put them together. So it's good that you are not treated like a lunatic, but your problem is still there. An important distinction here. Suggesting somebody to file a bug report, when done politely, it's a pretty neutral thing to do, and it even may turn out to be helpful at the end of the day. On the other hand, asking whether you submitted a bug report--and then lecturing the guy in trouble about it--has entirely different connotations; it is a clear attempt to shift the blame from where it obviously is (the software) to the person affected by it. This is, to the very least, not fair.

But this is not my case. I haven't arrived yesterday. I have wasted my time more than I should to find out how to make the sd/mmc card reader to work. I have looked up information in as many places as I could about this particular piece of hardware, including forums from all the major distributions, the linux kernel mailing list, linux laptop compatibility reports, what have you. I grep'ed the linux sources looking for the device ID and compiled several kernels enabling everything related to this kind of hardware just in case something could work. The problem is one and only one: there are no drivers for it. Full stop. Your suggestion of filing a 'me too' bug report to my distribution is ridiculous. At this stage I wouldn't waste 30 seconds more of my life on this issue. I have to use an arcane sed script in combination with obexftp to retrieve files from my phone, AND _I_ am OK with it. Don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do, and less than that, don't fucking lecture me.

I owe nothing to anybody. If I had to file a bug for every little problem I encountered using linux I would do nothing else all day round. Instead, I judge whether I can live with it or not and take a decision accordingly. If something _really_ annoys me, there is no easy workaround, and my work and/or sanity depends on it, I'll pop in the relevant mailing list and ask for help/file the goddamned bug report. Doing this is neither my job nor my hobby, so I avoid doing it as much as I can.

[rbmorse]

and less than that, don't fucking lecture me

How about returning the favor? Your rants are getting tiresome and given the audience of this site, misdirected. Attitude has been a problem for Linux since day one, but I don't see anything constructive coming from you, either.

[Ant P.]

But it gets much worse. The 'typical user' is a lie.

Quite correct. My parents are both totally computer-illiterate, yet I have never seen them make any of those hypothetical user complaints you go on about after giving them Ubuntu to use. On the other hand, they had their bank details stolen back when they used Windows.

[energyman]

Out of the whole repertoire of idiotic things one can say to a linux newcomer, this must be pretty high up on the list. "Did you submit a bug report?" Useless, self-defeating and quite irritant, if you ask me. What does it really mean when somebody suggests to submit a bug report or--worse--asks whether one has already been submitted? Well, for starters--and this is positive--it means the acceptance of failure. If you resort to the bug report strategy you clearly recognise that something is not working as expected, and the problem should be dealt with by somebody more knowledgeable in the community hierarchy. Not all is positive, though. The obvious negative bit is that you still have the two pieces and somehow you have to put them together. So it's good that you are not treated like a lunatic, but your problem is still there. An important distinction here. Suggesting somebody to file a bug report, when done politely, it's a pretty neutral thing to do, and it even may turn out to be helpful at the end of the day. On the other hand, asking whether you submitted a bug report--and then lecturing the guy in trouble about it--has entirely different connotations; it is a clear attempt to shift the blame from where it obviously is (the software) to the person affected by it. This is, to the very least, not fair.

But this is not my case. I haven't arrived yesterday. I have wasted my time more than I should to find out how to make the sd/mmc card reader to work. I have looked up information in as many places as I could about this particular piece of hardware, including forums from all the major distributions, the linux kernel mailing list, linux laptop compatibility reports, what have you. I grep'ed the linux sources looking for the device ID and compiled several kernels enabling everything related to this kind of hardware just in case something could work. The problem is one and only one: there are no drivers for it. Full stop. Your suggestion of filing a 'me too' bug report to my distribution is ridiculous. At this stage I wouldn't waste 30 seconds more of my life on this issue. I have to use an arcane sed script in combination with obexftp to retrieve files from my phone, AND _I_ am OK with it. Don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do, and less than that, don't fucking lecture me.

I owe nothing to anybody. If I had to file a bug for every little problem I encountered using linux I would do nothing else all day round. Instead, I judge whether I can live with it or not and take a decision accordingly. If something _really_ annoys me, there is no easy workaround, and my work and/or sanity depends on it, I'll pop in the relevant mailing list and ask for help/file the goddamned bug report. Doing this is neither my job nor my hobby, so I avoid doing it as much as I can.

wow, I have seldomly read something more idiotic than that. Thank you for proving that even egoitistical parasites have no problem to start a computer and use a keyboard.

They give you a whole OS FOR FREE. And you are blowing up because you should report problems back so they get fixed?

One question, have you been born this way or was there an accident involving your head and a big hammer?

[yotambien]

wow, I have seldomly read something more idiotic than that. Thank you for proving that even egoitistical parasites have no problem to start a computer and use a keyboard.

They give you a whole OS FOR FREE. And you are blowing up because you should report problems back so they get fixed?

One question, have you been born this way or was there an accident involving your head and a big hammer?

The hammer. You see, I used to be a polite guy, friendly, helpful to others...until I got into this linux thing and I turned into the sour, pedantic, aggressive bastard you now know. But with the last drops of warmth my heart still holds I desperately try to prevent other to become like me, especially the children...don't you understand that I have to warn them that linux will make bad persons of them?

Bah. I guess it's somehow related to this (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=k0Z2-I0zrDgC&pg=RA1-PA110&dq=flaming+and+fighting+internet+aggressivity#v=on epage&q=&f=false); I don't seem able to avoid engaging into this sort of flaming mode. Thinking about it cool, there's nothing I said here or in previous threads that couldn't be said in a nicer way without changing the substance.

I apologize.

I'll make you that favour. Time for a break.

[movieman]

Windows XP, released in 2001, is still supported. You can't claim the same for Ubuntu 4.10, released 2004, 3 years later than XP.

XP is an anomaly. Look at 95, 98, ME and now Vista/Win7; a new version of Windows has typically come out every 2-3 years, even less if you count things like 95 OSR2 (aka 'you want USB and AGP support? buy a new OS'). Microsoft really, really want people to pay them money every two years and won't make the XP mistake again.

And I doubt there are many people still using PCs from 2001; my girlfriend has one and we haven't booted it in a year because it's basically incapable of doing anything with modern software (Firefox, for example, wants more RAM than the PC has). She now uses a $400 Linux machine instead (perhaps I should add that it's an AMD, to bring this back somewhat more on topic :)).

[barbarbaron]

There are good points in this discussion, like effectiveness, user friendliness, flexibility, market lock that REALLY make (or force) an OS a choice for the masses. In our case it is hard not to agree that this OS is windows and also I agree that Linux has much work to do to reach that level. But without having a general view of the worldwide hardware-software demands and trends the discussion is doomed to be short-coming:

There are three types of companies in our industry; The first one is companies like IBM, HP, AMD, Intel, Nvidia, VIA, Xillinx, Samsung, LG and etc. that focus on selling hardware rather than software. The second type is software oriented companies like Microsoft, Adobe and etc. The third type is internet oriented ones like Google, Yahoo etc. The point is there are major differences of interest between these compaines, because the "average user" has a limited amount of money to spend on computers and IT. And there is an important fact that the majority of the third world "average users" can't reach technology because of the bloated nature of our industry.

Lets assume that our Third World Average User has 500 dollars (in average) to spend on computers. It is enough to reach a low-end hardware with this money so the HARDWARE COMPANIES CAN BE HAPPY, but not enough to get the overpriced software (WINDOW$) needed to operate this hardware so our TWAU has two options: 1. steal the software (which many of them do obviously) and 2. stay away from this "computer shit" because it is too expensive (again many of them do because that "computer shit" the reseller sells comes with windows preinstalled which adds roughly 100$ to the total). And as a result NOBODY IS HAPPY.

So our industry gets stuck by this bloated hardware-software junk and hardware companies (mainly IBM, HP, Intel, AMD or Chronos Group) seek a way out of this jam and a good option is supporting linux. Sooner or later, as the global crisis deepens, this fact that the industry gets stuck by companies like microsoft will be better realized by the hardware companies and they will improve support for linux or otherwise two things will happen:

1. More and more people will start stealing software including the developed world (it is %40 now worldwide) and the percentage will skyrocket to %80 - %90 and software companies will shrink.

2. Computers will become a luxury instead of everyday need and a smaller portion of the society will be able to buy them.

[bridgman]

I don't get the connection between lack of linux support and increased software piracy in the developed world (in your point #1).

[barbarbaron]

I don't get the connection between lack of linux support and increased software piracy in the developed world (in your point #1).

Yes it doesn't seem connected at the first glance but is indeed connected concerning the software usage culture. When using linux the user generally uses licenced software thus doesn't steal it, crack it or anything else and when he or she needs a particular proprietary software (like photoshop) this fact increases the possibility that he/she will actually buy it, because:

1. The software stealing culture will be beaten
2. The amount of money the user has to pay for software decreased (because the OS and other essential software is free) so the user doesn't have to pay for example 200$ to the super-pro-mega version of windows that has all of these essentials. So if the software company makes a linux port of its proprietary software the user will more likely go and buy it. EVERYONE IS HAPPY.

[nanonyme]

(because the OS and other essential software is free) so the user doesn't have to pay for example 200$ to the super-pro-mega version of windows that has all of these essentials. So if the software company makes a linux port of its proprietary software the user will more likely go and buy it. EVERYONE IS HAPPY.And you think people would rather learn to use a new free program than break laws and pirate a program they already know how to use? I think you're drastically overestimating human ethics.

[barbarbaron]

And you think people would rather learn to use a new free program than break laws and pirate a program they already know how to use?

If that free program comes preinstalled with new computers? And therefore has a good and populous user base and does everything a user wants it to do and its easy to learn? Yes, certainly, why not? It is as easy as thinking "hmm if my college friend Mike uses linux, its better for me to use it because I can get support from him". So if Mike uses linux, Steven will too.

I think you're drastically overestimating human ethics.

Let me tell you something about this. One of my teachers (not a student) at the university uses an expensive program's cracked version and because of the copy protection method, he cant use the program while connected to the internet... If he does that the whole program gets locked! And if they can do that copy protection for a particular program, they can do it for all. The important thing is: COPY PROTECTION INCREASES THE PRICE OF PROGRAMS! Because many of the companies buy copy protection code from other companies. So this is how our industry gets bloated and stuck...

And guess what? He uses a macbook pro which cost him at least 2000$ including the overpriced OS. So, why live like this? Just get a machine for less, OS for free and buy the software. Its much much better.

[elanthis]

If that free program comes preinstalled with new computers?

That just means the new computer they bought is broken. Been there, done that. We sold off a ton of old equipment, we didn't have the right to leave our organization's licensed copy of Windows on the machines, so we installed Ubuntu. Over half the people that bought the machines at auction (which very clearly stated that the machines did not have Windows) came back the next day wondering why "their CD didn't work" (e.g. some various app would not install and run).

The OS DOESN'T MATTER to people -- they don't care about your damn evangelism. The software that runs on top of the OS is what matters. If the OS can't run the software the users want, the OS is "broken" and the new computer should be returned for a refund. It's that simple. The users don't care about Windows at all either, other than the part where it actually "works."

I don't get why this keeps being such a shock to Linux fanatics. Regular people have more way software they want to run than Firefox and OpenOffice. ESPECIALLY if you're talking about college kids. Tux Racer is not an adequate substitute for Left 4 Dead, a MUD is not an adequate substitute for WoW, and a collection of abandoned half-complete little random clone apps on SourceForge is not a substitute for the big professional software packages they're cloned from.

Sure, okay, Linux _could_ run all that software if that software was written for Linux and Windows wasn't the popular choice. Windows itself is not technologically better than Linux here. But practically, it is better, because it does run that software, and that's all it comes down to -- it works or it does not.

And therefore has a good and populous user base and does everything a user wants it to do and its easy to learn? Yes, certainly, why not?

There's no such thing as easy to learn. That entire concept is a lie. There is only "needs to be learned" and "already known."

I have seen very intelligent and computer-skilled people go nuts over the change from XP to Vista -- that's changing operating systems in the same damn family, not switching to an entirely different beast -- because an icon moved from one place to another and they couldn't find it.

Geeks like us see a new interface and explore it. We go find out where the icons or whatever else we need are located at. Regular people don't do that. They go, "omg where the hell is it!?" freak out and then call someone who knows, because they're afraid they'll break something. This is NOT because they're stupid; it's because they're not computer people, don't want to be computer people, and hence don't put any time into learning the ins and outs of computers. Just like I have no idea how to perform anything beyond basic maintenance and operation off my car because I'm not a car person, don't want to be a car people, and hence don't put any time into learning the ins and outs of cars.

PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO LEARN NEW CRAP THEY DON'T HAVE TO. They just don't want to. Normal people don't have fun sitting in front of a box re-learning which rectangles to click to make it go. They want to go outside. Play games. Go to the theatre. Get laid. Sitting in front of a box and relearning how it works every 6 months is a massive waste of time that they don't want to do.

Computers exist to make people's lives better, not to be the focus of their damn life. Computer nerds -- and especially most Linux nerds -- don't seem to understand that. We have fun with computers. The computer itself is entertaining to us. Just like some people love to work on cars all day as a hobby. It's fun to them, even though it's not to people like me. Those people buy magazines about car engines and geek out when new advances in after-market hot-rod parts come out. I geek out when new CPUs come out or new low-level driver frameworks for Linux come out. Different interests. Their interests do not require them to learn how a computer works beyond the barest of the basics, that's all those people want to put into it, and they get irritated when the computer changes and they have to relearn stuff they already knew instead of spending the time working on a car.

It is as easy as thinking "hmm if my college friend Mike uses linux, its better for me to use it because I can get support from him".

First, for every college friend using Linux you can get help from, there are almost certainly a ton more college friends using Windows to get help from. Aside from that...

Mike is an idiot if he wants to spend all of his day constantly supporting a ton of friends. What a waste of life. All that time Mike could be spending hooking up with co-eds is instead spent helping Aunti Margaret figure out why Bejeweled can't run on her shiny new Ubuntu box, or why Steven can't get the Math department's online test submission form to work in Firefox, or why his roommate's computer can't install software from a CD he got for Christmas, or why dad's computer has no usable graphics acceleration on 3 year old hardware on Fedora 12, or why Joeseph can't install Linux-native software on his new Linux box because the installer script requires shell magic to execute and then shell mojo in order to fix the script because it was written against an older Linux distro before things got moved around and changed in the last release (or the release before that, or the release before that, or the release before that).

Mike is going to pretty quickly learn that he either gets to do the work of a full helpdesk call center and fail his classes from lack of studying or that he needs to tell his friends and family to go drop $99 on an XP CD and get out of his hair.

Even when everyone is using Windows and doesn't need to learn anything new or deal with massive amounts of incompatibility with software, any computer professional with a brain bigger than a marble very quickly learns to tell his friends and family to screw off when they come to him with computer questions, lest you spend your entire waking day helping people figure out why their mouse doesn't move anymore or why their sister's "l337 h4ck3r" boyfriend can't get his custom build PC to work after he bought an Intel CPU and somehow managed to jam it into a Socket 939 motherboard.

I used to be like you. I tried to get my parents on Linux to save them money. I helped my poor college friends get Linux-enabled machines up and running to save them the "Windows tax." I even had a girlfriend who tried to use Linux because she thought I'd like her more if she did (and there's probably a ton of Linux dipshits that _would_ like their girlfriend more if they used Linux... which is absolutely pathetic). Every last single one of those persons reverted to Windows within 6 months. I spent the first month answering a near endless stream of questions from a mere 6 people, I spent the next 3 months explaining over and and over why they were better off with Linux instead of being able to run whatever random-ass piece of software they wanted to use (mostly games), and then the next 2 months transfer data and settings to XP installs. I haven't had a single support request from a single one of them other than my father since they switched to XP, and my father's support questions have dropped from weekly to one every few months.

In retrospect, I would have paid out of my own pocket to put XP on all their machines to save myself from the massive freaking headache that experience turned out to be.

[barbarbaron]

:) you really are full...

That just means the new computer they bought is broken.

It seems you didn't read my first post saying:

"There are good points in this discussion, like effectiveness, user friendliness, flexibility, market lock that really make (or force) an OS a choice for the masses. In our case it is hard not to agree that this OS is windows and also I agree that Linux has much work to do to reach that level."

There is only "needs to be learned" and "already known."

No there is another thing: The first OS the user learns. There are users used to windows and also tons of users that begin using computers each day or CAN'T GET A COMPUTER because the price is unnecessarily high.

and that's all it comes down to -- it works or it does not.

And also comes down to: people can buy the computer or not, also simple to understand.

Mike is an idiot if he wants to spend all of his day constantly supporting a ton of friends.

Mike supports his best friend Steven, not tons of them, nobody does. If you did support tons of people in the past its your problem. Also if your girlfriend thought that she could impress you by using linux its your girlfriend. Not everybody acts the same.

My point of view is not "Lets glorify the linux god". By saying "I used to be like you." you make a mistake there. Rather it is "How many more computers can we sell to the third world market (or middle-low class) by replacing windows with linux (with improved driver support)? If there wasn't any point in it, would a company like google be working on chrome OS? (which is based on linux?). They work on it because more people using chrome OS on the computers they can buy mean more customers and more google members. So the important thing is: Is there an opportunity for the market to expand? Yes.

[amphigory]

In retrospect, I would have paid out of my own pocket to put XP on all their machines to save myself from the massive freaking headache that experience turned out to be.
Yes indeed. I've made the same mistake. If someone has already decided to take the Linux plunge I'll give them advice, but in no way will I ever again be a Linux evangelist. I don't know how many hours I have wasted providing support for people I pushed into using Linux, only to have them eventually return to Windows. If a tool works, use it: OS X, Windows, Linux, BSD, Solaris, BeOS... hell, even SCO UNIX... whatever the user is familiar with and is comfortable using.

I use Linux because I prefer a Unix environment and Linux has better support for my hardware than the BSD variants. I use Linux despite the rabble-rousers. I support open source software projects by donating money (***gasp***) and/or time (simple fixes/correcting build issues). In my opinion, Richard Stallman made a HUGE mistake calling open source software with user friendly licensing "free". In the immortal words of Robert Heinlein, "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch". TANSTAAFL.

Linux should not be a social cause. There are approximately 2^26 social issues of more importance than an operating system or application software.

[movieman]

Even when everyone is using Windows and doesn't need to learn anything new or deal with massive amounts of incompatibility with software,

Uh, like XP to Vista? Even I can't find half the things I want when I have to use a Vista PC.

I do agree with your general points, but the idea that Windows users 'don't need to learn anything new' seems bizarre when Microsoft just radically changed their user interface so that even people who've used Windows since 3.0 can't find anything anymore.

In addition, I suspect that anyone who does free tech support for friends gets a lot more questions about how to fix Windows ('why's it running so slow?' 'You have three hundred types of malware installed') than how to fix Linux.