More Developers Want GNOME 3.0 Delayed

[phoronix]

Phoronix: More Developers Want GNOME 3.0 Delayed

Yesterday we reported that the release of GNOME 3.0 could end up being delayed to the end of September after the Zeitgeist and GNOME Shell developers shared these key pieces of the GNOME 3.x desktop would likely not be ready in a stable state for the planned 3.0 release in March. Today more developers responsible for different parts of GNOME have voiced their views and the status of their code...

http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=NzY3Ng

[sabriah]

Phoronix: More Developers Want GNOME 3.0 Delayed

Am I the only one who thinks that KDE 5.0 and Gnome 4.0 should be the same and only?

The current situation does not look good. These major parallel efforts dilute a limited number of developers efforts. It creates far too intrusive alternatives on a far too low level.

I can live with in a world with two, five or or even 25 different spreadsheets, as they are end applications and don't necessarily inherit code from each other. Still, most distributions today have a Gnome one and a KDE one, for the wrong reason. Widgets...

Yes, I know the history behind both, and the C/C++ difference. But as both now have viable licences, the C/C++ is only a technical obstacle, in a world of engineers. Please, try to work for a merger.

It would be interesting to hear reasons for and against maintaining both.

[next9]

Merger is impossible and undesirable. People usually choose one of the major two KDE and GNOME, because of their concept of usage. I like KDE for it usability, plenty of configuration options, and very easy of use.

GNOME for me is a desktop, that is hard to configure, even such a stupid thing like and icon change is horror. Gnome gives you an GTK file/save dialogue and user fuck yourself and find the icon in /usr/share/.... yourself. The is the typical GNOME approach. I don't know whether are GNOME users so genius, that this is not problem for them, or so idiot, that they should be protected from changing single icon. But this example demonstrates the general approach of GNOME to the user. That's why I completely hate it.

The idea that these two different desktops will merger and GNOME concept will prevail is my nightmare.

But. I respect, other users like GNOME approach, they like Gconf etc. So it is obvious, they would not be happy if KDE approach prevail. The only way how to solve this is some standardization efforts like freedesktop.org.

My personal opinion is, that KDE became technically superior above GNOME too much, and it is so configurable, that it can be configured to the shape of GNOME, that the whole GNOME project is waste of time. But, even if this statement was true, there would exist some GNOME, because this is opensource. In opensource there is not only one right way. Never.

[bugmenot]

Jason also mentions that he doesn't think it will be until that point when there is a really polished driver available from Red Hat. We take it that he is referring to the latest ATI Radeon graphics hardware support, for which Red Hat contributes a great deal.

Actually, I would assume that to mean the nouveau 3d driver for nvidia hardware which Red Hat is also pushing the development of.

The Ati/AMD counterpart is already more or less ready except for R800 - and that is a game of chasing the newest hardware that will probably continue where after hardware release, support for it will be added, some times sooner, sometimes later and maybe even some times before it arrives.

[RahulSundaram]

Actually, I would assume that to mean the nouveau 3d driver for nvidia hardware which Red Hat is also pushing the development of.

The Ati/AMD counterpart is already more or less ready except for R800 - and that is a game of chasing the newest hardware that will probably continue where after hardware release, support for it will be added, some times sooner, sometimes later and maybe even some times before it arrives.

Red Hat has a number of developers working on Intel, ATI (Dave Airlie works on Radeon driver and is the kernel DRM sub system maintainer) and Nvidia (Ben Skeggs works on Nouveau) drivers.

Red Hat also has a considerable amount of people working on GNOME Shell itself including interaction designers. With parallel development of Xorg drivers and GNOME Shell, hopefully things will just click.

[Kazade]

My personal opinion is, that KDE became technically superior above GNOME too much, and it is so configurable, that it can be configured to the shape of GNOME, that the whole GNOME project is waste of time. But, even if this statement was true, there would exist some GNOME, because this is opensource. In opensource there is not only one right way. Never.

Wow. I think somewhere in that outpour of uninformed hatred was a good point... somewhere.

Anyway, GNOME and KDE shouldn't merge NOT because one is superior to the other. But because they are different approaches to creating a usable desktop and both enrich the free software ecosystem.

I used KDE originally then gradually migrated to GNOME, because basically, 1.) I prefer GTK+ applications and 2.) I have better stuff to do than continually fiddle with my desktop settings which is what I found myself doing with KDE.

Could there be more integration between the two projects? Definitely. Is there unnecessary duplication, yes. Should both desktops switch to one toolkit... no, I don't think so.

It would be nice if applications were written modularly so only the UI needs replacing. If (for example) Kopete and Empathy both used the same libraries but only changed the UI, I think that would be a good use of resources. But each desktop changes the UI to reflect their chosen principles. It does happen that way sometimes, it needs to happen more.

[energyman]

KDE's approach is the unix way. You have lots of small little 'modules' (kpart). Every single one is doing one job. You achieve astonishing results putting those kparts together (just like piping some output of some app into another).

GNOME' approach is the windows way. It was meant as a windows95 clone. Including a bad corba implementation and an unhealty 'options are confusing' and 'hide everything' mentality.

I wish, Phoronix would stop to be so freaking gnome centric.

The poll showed: most people use KDE. Only phoronix still ignores it.

[Kazade]

I wish, Phoronix would stop to be so freaking gnome centric.

The poll showed: most people use KDE. Only phoronix still ignores it.

Which poll? GNOME is by far the most used Linux desktop... not that it matters at all. Anyway, there was a KDE news post only 2 days ago.. I'm not really sure what you are getting at.

I frankly find it incredibly sad that supporters of one OSS project would flame and abuse another. It's hardly in the spirit of it is it?

[kraftman]

Which poll? GNOME is by far the most used Linux desktop... not that it matters at all. Anyway, there was a KDE news post only 2 days ago.. I'm not really sure what you are getting at.

Phoronix poll. I also saw few other polls and KDE was a winner. I remember when KDE was default DE for many distros, but it started to change when Ubuntu came. Many people who migrate from other OS'es to Linux (Ubuntu in this case) have no idea there's another DE like KDE thus they beg for missing features at Ubuntu brainstorm, but KDE already has them. Show them both, one next to another and we'll see what they choose ;)

I frankly find it incredibly sad that supporters of one OSS project would flame and abuse another. It's hardly in the spirit of it is it?Read what gnome fanboys write on blogs.

[energyman]

what kraftman wrote.

[Kazade]

Read what gnome fanboys write on blogs.


That doesn't make it right.

[seanhodges]

Read what gnome fanboys write on blogs.

A quick search on Planet Gnome begs to differ with you:

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=007525575524326405779%3Ac0gv0y410u0&q=KDE&cof=FORID%3A0

[kraftman]

That doesn't make it right.

I know, kde fanboys aren't better, but attacks are from both sides.

[kraftman]

A quick search on Planet Gnome begs to differ with you:

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=007525575524326405779%3Ac0gv0y410u0&q=KDE&cof=FORID%3A0

It depends what blogs and I didn't mean Gnome devs blogs or only Gnome related blogs, but in general.

[seanhodges]

It depends what blogs and I didn't mean Gnome devs blogs or only Gnome related blogs, but in general.

Why do you bother reading those?

I thought you meant blogs from people who are related to the Gnome project, not the bored kids venting on their LiveJournal sites.

[kraftman]

Why do you bother reading those?

I thought you meant blogs from people who are related to the Gnome project, not the bored kids venting on their LiveJournal sites.I don't read them. Devs probably don't play in such things. Kazade said it's sad that supporters of one OSS project would flame another one and I just wanted to point there are also attacks from other side.

[Kazade]

I don't read them. Devs probably don't play in such things. Kazade said it's sad that supporters of one OSS project would flame another one and I just wanted to point there are also attacks from other side.

It is sad. No matter where the attacks are coming from. The difference is, the attacks you are referring to are from unknown people. We can't do much about that. The attacks against GNOME I'm referring to are right here in this thread and so I'm pointing those out in the hope that perhaps those posters will in future make more constructive comments, rather than flaming.

[val-gaav]

Am I the only one who thinks that KDE 5.0 and Gnome 4.0 should be the same and only?


Nope you are not the only one. To all your valid points I should also add that if linux is to gain % in marketshare it should have one desktop... For normal people OS is the GUI they see not the kernel that works under the gui.


Could there be more integration between the two projects? Definitely. Is there unnecessary duplication, yes. Should both desktops switch to one toolkit... no, I don't think so.


Actually switching to one toolkit would be a great thing... since Qt can imitate the GNOME HIG and style it would be a great choice. It also has developer base and is in better shape then gtk+ development which is a bit lacking in manpower ...

All those "this is gtk+ app so it doesn't look good in kde" or "this is qt app so it sucks in gnome was a major of linux and to certain degree it still is .. It goes deeper then just theme so pointing users to use qtcurve or whatever theme that is made for both toolkits does not cut it. OK cancel vx Cancel OK ... filepickers print dialogs etc. etc.

and it goes even deeper with people who absolutely refuse to use qt aps in gnome or qt apps in kde ... Thanks to that we not only have 2 desktop environments but also numerous fragmentation in third party apps like music players, mediaplayers and so on... because you know whenever there is a good qt or gtk+ app someone has to do a clone using the other toolkit ...

Basing both kde ang gnome on the same toolkit and technology would be a blessing for linux, though yeah I know it's not going to happen.

[energyman]

go, tell that the gnomers. They splitt off. They do everything they can to stay incompatible and screw over KDE.

Go tell gnome.

[Kazade]

go, tell that the gnomers. They splitt off. They do everything they can to stay incompatible and screw over KDE.

Go tell gnome.

I know I'm feeding the troll here... but how exactly do the GNOME devs "do everything they can to stay incompatible and screw over KDE" exactly?

All I see is that they are pursuing one vision of a desktop and KDE is pursuing another. It's not deliberate sabotage, and both desktops follow the freedesktop.org standards so if anything they are working towards being more compatible.

But yeah, you just sit there act like a child, instead of you know, making constructive points like an adult.

[Ant P.]

Between Gnome and KDE, it's actually KDE that serves little use.

There are, after all, plenty of other desktops besides KDE that don't treat the user like a moron. But nothing comes close to Gnome's contempt for its own users.

[energyman]

I know I'm feeding the troll here... but how exactly do the GNOME devs "do everything they can to stay incompatible and screw over KDE" exactly?

All I see is that they are pursuing one vision of a desktop and KDE is pursuing another. It's not deliberate sabotage, and both desktops follow the freedesktop.org standards so if anything they are working towards being more compatible.

But yeah, you just sit there act like a child, instead of you know, making constructive points like an adult.

hal, *kit, and all that freedesktop stuff is completly gnome-centric. When developing kde4, they had to fight a lot with dbus - thanks to gnome.

Gnome is the cancer that kills the linux desktop. And Ubuntu is its vector.

[val-gaav]

@energyman:

Well I do have past experience about asking one gnomer while he was working on some cross platform theming for gtk+ 3.0 about filepickers and OK Cancel position on different on platforms... So I was asked to file bugreport / feature request about it and the response I got was did I check that gtk+ already does that? or are you volunteering ... Quite rude responses imho that discourage any future bug reports or feature requests.

...


Of course I'm biased as I'm using KDE but you know in my above comment I really tried to stay objective and constructive. IMHO same platform and toolkit would be a great thing and with gnome 3.0 on the way it was a good time to change toolkits too. Here we go into pride issue though as gtk+ is theirs and Qt well the K guys use it so no no way(even though qt is not strictly kde technology). The same issue as with kde khtml devs sticking to their engine although the obvious future is with the forked webkit.

I really hoped GCDS would lead to at least some technology sharing and cooperation ... It seems though it was wishful thinking.

[Kazade]

hal, *kit, and all that freedesktop stuff is completly gnome-centric. When developing kde4, they had to fight a lot with dbus - thanks to gnome.



How is FreeDesktop gnome-centric exactly? Also, DBUS was the standardized offspring of DCOP which was developed for KDE. KDE devs had as much, if not more, input into the development of DBUS and it was always intended to replace DCOP in KDE4.

Gnome is the cancer that kills the linux desktop. And Ubuntu is its vector.

You're right, we'd better tell Linus (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/24/1842218). Saying that Ubuntu, the most successful desktop Linux distribution in the world, is killing the Linux desktop just doesn't make sense.

@val-gaav Thanks for bringing some sane, adult discussion to this thread ;) I dunno what it is about bug reports and developers being less than social on them. I guess some people don't like to admit when they are wrong. But that's hardly a GNOME-only issue, I've seen that all over the place. :)

[sc3252]

Am I the only one who thinks that KDE 5.0 and Gnome 4.0 should be the same and only?

The current situation does not look good. These major parallel efforts dilute a limited number of developers efforts. It creates far too intrusive alternatives on a far too low level.

I can live with in a world with two, five or or even 25 different spreadsheets, as they are end applications and don't necessarily inherit code from each other. Still, most distributions today have a Gnome one and a KDE one, for the wrong reason. Widgets...

Yes, I know the history behind both, and the C/C++ difference. But as both now have viable licences, the C/C++ is only a technical obstacle, in a world of engineers. Please, try to work for a merger.

It would be interesting to hear reasons for and against maintaining both.

Maybe we should simplify everything and just have one distro, one set of drivers, and one kernel. Hey the People working on BSDs are wasting there time duplicating everything. Oh wait you can get all of that great stuff in Mac OS X, why don't you just migrate to that if you don't want duplication.

Also to all those people shitting on Gnome please start your own thread, its nice that you think Gnome is destroying the world, but can you at least do it in your own thread instead of just coming in here and wasting everyone's time with you rabble.

I am no KDE "fan", but I will not go in to KDE topics and start trolling just because I think what they are working is a waste of time and they suck or something. Really I couldn't care less what KDE does, but I do still want them around just because it helps push Gnome.

[val-gaav]

One main linux distro is already happening (ubuntu). In a few years it will most likely continue to gain users.


With that in mind flaming is a thing that comes up from bad experiences with environment. For example kde users may start hating gnome when installing firefox in kubuntu tries to download and install half of gnome. That example is not really strictly gnome fault though :) ... Same goes with windows it's not that linux users hate it just because ... they hate because they have to use it at work, some applications from it are not ported, because MS undermines open source .. etc etc.

In my case I really hate the fact that gtk+ integrates just with gnome, and that they force their HIG on others. I do run some gtk+ apps but if those would integrate nicely with my desktop environment of choice I couldn't care less about the lib that's beneath those.

If gnome and kde had good cooperation and did not cause problems one to each other then for sure there would be quite less people flaming in gnome vs kde threads. Flames have always some reason in frustration in people and this frustration is hardly because of one desktop having 5% more users then the other one.

[BlackStar]

In my case I really hate the fact that gtk+ integrates just with gnome, and that they force their HIG on others. I do run some gtk+ apps but if those would integrate nicely with my desktop environment of choice I couldn't care less about the lib that's beneath those.
I'd really love it if both sides would get together and solve this issue once and for all.

I'm running a number of Qt applications and they really don't integrate well into Gnome. The situation is much better than, say, 12 months ago (broken Qt font rendering that would force full hinting shudders), but I can still tell whether this is a GTK+ or Qt application just by looking at it.

[Apopas]

Many people who migrate from other OS'es to Linux (Ubuntu in this case) have no idea there's another DE like KDE thus they beg for missing features at Ubuntu brainstorm, but KDE already has them. Show them both, one next to another and we'll see what they choose ;)
I choosed Gnome in that way :p

[drag]

One main linux distro is already happening (ubuntu). In a few years it will most likely continue to gain users.


Pretty much everybody that any sort of commercial interest or focuses on making Linux more acceptable to average person uses Gnome by default.



With that in mind flaming is a thing that comes up from bad experiences with environment. For example kde users may start hating gnome when installing firefox in kubuntu tries to download and install half of gnome.


Well especially that Firefox is not a Gnome application and has never had anything to do with Gnome. It's a Mozilla XUL application, which is entirely different from GTK or Gnome or anything else related to Gnome. Same thing with OpenOffice.org, which is not and has never been a GTK or Gnome application.

Distros include those by default since they are useful applications, but they use their own toolkits and whatnot.



That example is not really strictly gnome fault though :) ... Same goes with windows it's not that linux users hate it just because ... they hate because they have to use it at work, some applications from it are not ported, because MS undermines open source .. etc etc.

I hate Windows because it is exceptionally unpleasant OS to use.



If gnome and kde had good cooperation and did not cause problems one to each other then for sure there would be quite less people flaming in gnome vs kde threads. Flames have always some reason in frustration in people and this frustration is hardly because of one desktop having 5% more users then the other one.


The flaming is because they think that Gnome being popular diminishes KDE. Which is just retarded and is not how the world works. It is not a zero sum game.

[Jimmy]

For example kde users may start hating gnome when installing firefox in kubuntu tries to download and install half of gnome.

I don't know that it's really that much of an issue. One could install every package on a distro's DVD and not put much of a dent in available disk space typically available on desktop today's systems. Disk space is cheap.

Updates may take a bit longer, but not so much that users do much different than what they do now: quickly glance at the updates, start the process, and ignore it until it's done.

The places it might be more significant would be in the design and implementation of embedded systems where resources are thin. For the average desktop user, not so much.

I think the biggest stumbling block for users is how every other application uses a different file selector. How common features find themselves being hidden in different sub menus (file->settings, edit->settings, settings->options, tools->settings) from app to app. Heck there are things that even applications built with the same toolkit can't seem to agree on like whether each tab should have a close button or not (Konsole vs Konqueror vs Konversation vs Dolphin).

It would be nice if KDE applications could use the GTK file selector and vice versa according to the user's preference. I doubt that will ever be much more than an idle daydream.

Meh... they'll have to work much harder than they supposedly are to keep me from using both application flavors.

[val-gaav]

Pretty much everybody that any sort of commercial interest or focuses on making Linux more acceptable to average person uses Gnome by default.


... because gnome is better then kde for comercial interests. Redhat, SLED, well all the major comercial distros use gnome ... That on the other hand pays up with tools and other stuff from those companies that work yes in gtk+/gnome.


That being said KDE is better for normal desktop use, which is not in the greatest interest of players right now aside from short netbook boom, which now ended with XP installed on almost all of those small things.




Well especially that Firefox is not a Gnome application and has never had anything to do with Gnome. It's a Mozilla XUL application, which is entirely different from GTK or Gnome or anything else related to Gnome. Same thing with OpenOffice.org, which is not and has never been a GTK or Gnome application.
Dunno why I got quoted on this.. I stated it's not gnome fault. But ubuntu is a gnome centric distro so by nature things like that fuel some hate.

Oh and FF on linux requires gtk+ and follows gnome HIG ... For me it is an app close to gnome, even if it's XUL deep under the hood. Openoffice has integration packages for both gtk+ and Qt4 so it's a bit different here, or rather it's just as you say in this case:)




The flaming is because they think that Gnome being popular diminishes KDE. Which is just retarded and is not how the world works. It is not a zero sum game.
Sure and Widnows being popular does not dimnish Linux at all ;)

[val-gaav]

It would be nice if KDE applications could use the GTK file selector and vice versa according to the user's preference. I doubt that will ever be much more than an idle daydream.

vice versa is already true at least for pure Qt4 apps ... Those use gnome filepicker and theme and button layout while running in GNOME :
http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2008/10/01/native-file-dialogs-in-gnome/

[RealNC]

Ah, nice thread. I love "KDE sucks", "no Gnome sucks", "no you" threads :p

So I'll jump right in. As a KDE fanboy, I think Gnome sucks. First, I don't like its API (Gtk.) Second, I don't like the reason Gnome came into existence in the first place ("free" alternative to "non-free" KDE). Third, I don't like the recent "WOW! Mono/.NET is awesome lets use it" mentality of the Gnome devs. Fourth, I don't like that Gtk doesn't integrate at all with Qt (while Qt does integrate with Gtk). Fifth, I don't like Gnome's configuration/tweaking options. Sixth, Gtk performance sucks compared to Qt. Seventh, Kwin4 stomps on Metacity. Seventh and a half, Kwin also stomps on the bloated overkill called Compiz.

Oh man, I could go on all day long :D

[drag]

... because gnome is better then kde for comercial interests. Redhat, SLED, well all the major comercial distros use gnome ... That on the other hand pays up with tools and other stuff from those companies that work yes in gtk+/gnome.


That being said KDE is better for normal desktop use, which is not in the greatest interest of players right now aside from short netbook boom, which now ended with XP installed on almost all of those small things.

No KDE is not better for normal desktop use. Not even remotely. It may be better for what _you_ use, but that does not translate to 'generally'.



Dunno why I got quoted on this.. I stated it's not gnome fault. But ubuntu is a gnome centric distro so by nature things like that fuel some hate.

Oh and FF on linux requires gtk+ and follows gnome HIG ... For me it is an app close to gnome, even if it's XUL deep under the hood. Openoffice has integration packages for both gtk+ and Qt4 so it's a bit different here, or rather it's just as you say in this case:)


So? They still are not Gnome nor are they GTK software.

Distros use those packages because they are useful and they try to integrate those into their desktops in best way possible; which is generally gnome.

The reason I quote them is because people think that because that Firefox or OO.org don't have the standard placement for menu items and other things that 'each application has a different dialog' and such things. It's just nice to point out things so that people don't get confused.

Oh, and Firefox is not 'deep down XUL'. It is entirely XUL and everything from the URL bar to the menu items to the main browser window is rendered with the same HTML engine. It's actually quite cool and you can run similar applications that are completely web-based..




Sure and Widnows being popular does not dimnish Linux at all ;)


Gnome is not Windows and KDE is not Linux. Your comparing apples to oranges and it really has no correlation at all.

KDE and Gnome are not mutually exclusive items. When I started using Linux there was enough differences that you had problems actually running KDE applications next to Gnome. There were incompatibilities with all sorts of things.

Nowadays there are still look-n-feel conflicts, but it hardly stops people from choosing one or another or both.

[val-gaav]

No KDE is not better for normal desktop use. Not even remotely. It may be better for what _you_ use, but that does not translate to 'generally'.


1) Most desktop users like to configure their desktop to a certain degree making it more "personal". To do that with gnome you must be a geek and venture into gconf or/and use third party programs. To do that with KDE you just have to look for option/settings that interest you.

2) KDE is more like windows gui. The most obvious one panel at the down screen vs two panels in Gnome is a big point here. That really seems to be a heck of a problem for people, believe me.

3) KDE technology focuses on desktop use while Gnome on more corporate and server use. For example Kde has compositing and plasmoid by default to get those in Gnome you have to use third party apps.


Gnome is not Windows and KDE is not Linux. Your comparing apples to oranges and it really has no correlation at all.
By your logic any comparision is invalid then, because whatever I compare it to, it will always not be Gnome and not be KDE.


KDE and Gnome are not mutually exclusive items. When I started using Linux there was enough differences that you had problems actually running KDE applications next to Gnome. There were incompatibilities with all sorts of things.

Well I remember experiencing tray problems in the old days, your memory may reach even further ...
Though really it's quite madness IMHO, the current situation is better, but if this was Apple or Ms I believe they would try to fix the gtk+ qt inconsistency mess ... I do hope community will do the same, though I hope so for like 5 or 6 years already ...

[sabriah]

hate Windows because it is exceptionally unpleasant OS to use.

Then, check out this gem!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPIgEFIv5MI

:)

[BlackStar]

Then, check out this gem!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPIgEFIv5MI

:)

Nice! "Welcome to Windows 7 Beta!!!" :D

[curaga]

Having alternatives is simply good, that's why it happened and continues to happen. KDE and Gnome will never unify, or if they will, someone will fork both, and then there will be three major DEs :P

And on the flaming topic, KDE and Gnome both suck. Heavy bloated crap. I'll have my sound without pulsing, my settings without gconf *cough registry cough*, and my WM without hundreds-of-megs ram use.

Then on the bottom end, Qt and Gtk+ are both good. They are different, but they both work. Apps are free to be UI-agnostic, for example Pidgin is libpurple and an UI can be created with any toolkit. Then it's only up to interested people to have an IM app in Fox.