They Say A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words

[phoronix]

Phoronix: They Say A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words

...but what about two pictures?Yes, that is an early build of a future version of the Phoronix Test Suite running natively atop Microsoft Windows 7. Of course, the Phoronix Test Suite already runs atop OpenSolaris, *BSD, and Mac OS X too.How come? How will this benefit the Linux community? It will all be answered shortly, but for now you can chime in with your thoughts or ideas in the forums...

http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=NzY3OA

[deanjo]

You really have to stop using that Win 7 skin on your linux destop Michael, it's just wrong.:p

[nico342]

Will it be faster on Windows ? lol

I hope not.

[DoDoENT]

WOW!

So when can we expect first Win7 vs Fedora (Ubuntu) vs Snow Leopard benchmarks?

[bulletxt]

Most importantly, we all want to see what are you hiding in that recycle bin :D

I think somoone donated a Windows 7 copy to michael... and I think I understood who :P

[elvis]

Very interested to see the results.

I regularly need to performance test Windows against Linux/UNIX for crypto speed and 3D rendering speeds for various clients. Access to PTS will make this a whole lot easier.

[garytr24]

Reasons for this are obvious. It makes linux win :-). If windows is better on some benchmarks, developers will dig in and figure out why and improve linux. If linux wins, well, then people will use it :-).

Objective benchmarks that are meaningful will drive development. And Windows will have a harder time keeping up, maybe.

What this will do is create a fiercer competition between the OS's, and the end users will benefit.

[d2kx]

What a shit KDE4 theme.

[Veerappan]

I'm somewhat interested to see how the Nvidia propietary drivers score on Win7 vs. Linux. The recent interview suggested that they share 90+% of their code between platforms, and I'd love to see how well that actually is working for Nvidia with respect to cross-platform performance (and if there's any inherent bottlenecks in X or Windows).

I've seen Wine benchmarks in the past that suggest that Wine+Linux can actually run windows applications faster than windows itself (I believe it was some of Anandtech's recent coverage, might've been TechReport). I could see using PTS to comparatively benchmark a few windows game demos against Wine+Demos in PTS (or full versions of the game if there's legal issues running benchmarks on demo versions of said games).

[Setlec]

OH my Gosh! Let's see how win 7 will badly do on PTS against linux performance.

[RealNC]

what a shit kde4 theme.

lol :D

[garytr24]

I'm somewhat interested to see how the Nvidia propietary drivers score on Win7 vs. Linux. The recent interview suggested that they share 90+% of their code between platforms, and I'd love to see how well that actually is working for Nvidia with respect to cross-platform performance (and if there's any inherent bottlenecks in X or Windows).

I've seen Wine benchmarks in the past that suggest that Wine+Linux can actually run windows applications faster than windows itself (I believe it was some of Anandtech's recent coverage, might've been TechReport). I could see using PTS to comparatively benchmark a few windows game demos against Wine+Demos in PTS (or full versions of the game if there's legal issues running benchmarks on demo versions of said games).

yea, this is due to GCC being a worse optimizing compiler compared to VC++. I'll bet the drivers are affected by this as well. Also, firefox+Wine used to be faster than native linux firefox. don't know if that's still the case

[deanjo]

yea, this is due to GCC being a worse optimizing compiler compared to VC++. I'll bet the drivers are affected by this as well. Also, firefox+Wine used to be faster than native linux firefox. don't know if that's still the case

Sadly it still remains true.

[tronath]

Looking forward to this, well done!

[garytr24]

Sadly it still remains true.

don't think it's that sad, as I imagine a lot of effort goes into MSVC. But, it is important for linux's compilers to improve, as this will benefit every project.

[sreyan]

Fantastic work. This will be great for comparing comparing posix operating systems to windows7 and will serve to either highlight posix superiority or underline where we can improve.

Simply awesome work.

[rohcQaH]

I'm somewhat interested to see how the Nvidia propietary drivers score on Win7 vs. Linux.
I made some tests on win2k vs. linux with doom3 on a 7600GT back then. Linux was about 2-3 fps slower. Of course PTS could give some more varied on more current results - as well as results in other areas than GPU drivers.

Doesn't seem to hold for mobile chips though, my linux performance was significantly worse than windows performance on them.

I've seen Wine benchmarks in the past that suggest that Wine+Linux can actually run windows applications faster than windows itself
Depends on the application. Some parts of Linux are in fact faster, even when mangled through an API wrapper. Others are slower. It's just a matter of picking an application that heavily uses the right APIs to draw any conclusion you like.

Also, firefox+Wine used to be faster than native linux firefox. don't know if that's still the case
still is, because firefox on linux often isn't compiled with PGO (Profile Guided Optimization). Most distributions don't care about the added work of automating profiling & recompiling, and last time I checked there were no official linux binaries with PGO.
Enabling PGO gives roughly ~10% performance, about the difference between windows & linux builds.

It's not that gcc is worse (as garytr24 suggested), it's just that PGO often isn't used because it's not trivial to do in an automated way.

[kersurk]

What language is Phoronix Test Suite written in?

(Yes, I'm lazy by not searching it, as it's probably mentioned somewhere)

[Michael]

What language is Phoronix Test Suite written in?

(Yes, I'm lazy by not searching it, as it's probably mentioned somewhere)

The bulk of pts-core is written in PHP5.

[oliver]

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

Good job though ...

still ... chunks ... I'll be back later.

[d2globalinc]

I got a very sick feeling when seeing that damn logo and images on Phoronix.. It's too bright and hurts my eyes.. I don't know whats worse, the windows logo or the internet explorer one..

- D2G

[duby229]

The bulk of pts-core is written in PHP5.

Is PHP5 anything like Python? And why choose a markup language?

[Michael]

Is PHP5 anything like Python? And why choose a markup language?

PHP isn't a markup language... It can be viewed as similar to Python, it all depends upon who you ask, but this isn't even relevant to this thread.

[thefirstm]

I got a very sick feeling when seeing that damn logo and images on Phoronix.. It's too bright and hurts my eyes.. I don't know whats worse, the windows logo or the internet explorer one..

- D2G

I think the IE one. You can use Firefox on Windows, but IE is a complete piece of sh*t.

[b15hop]

It's to prove win7 how much faster Linux really is! xD

[bogdanbiv]

What about older Windowses (XP mostly, not Vista)? Is there something in PTS tying it to a specific version of windows? I tend to believe that XP is still important for most people - even on new systems.

I think having support for all computing platforms helps PTS to pick up more steam. For example OEMs could use it for checking performance of their products.

[b15hop]

What about older Windowses (XP mostly, not Vista)? Is there something in PTS tying it to a specific version of windows? I tend to believe that XP is still important for most people - even on new systems.

I think having support for all computing platforms helps PTS to pick up more steam. For example OEMs could use it for checking performance of their products.
True, because WinXP is still favoured over Vista. From what I can see, Win7 and Vista are very similar... Even though people are raving about the new Win7.

[marvin42]

I fear that most of the tests depend on cygwin, so it's that what gets tested and not raw win7. There should be at least an option to disable these tests.

[susikala]

Man, that OS looks like crap.

[kraftman]

True, because WinXP is still favoured over Vista. From what I can see, Win7 and Vista are very similar... Even though people are raving about the new Win7.

Win7 uses kernel 6.1 (afaik vista uses 6.0), but they claim it uses kernel 7.0 and number 6.1 is just for compatibility with some apps. Maybe they just forget to change this number to 7.0 and it's just vista kernel? :rolleyes:

[geamandura]

When I saw the news title I was secretly hoping it's new shots from UT3. But, interesting news nevertheless!

[Xheyther]

I'm concerned about the relevance of windows tests if a compatibility layer like cygwin is used.
I think a such issue could easily deserve PTS' credibility in the benchmarking (small) world more than a windows version could serve PTS.

[n0nsense]

I just wonder, why Gentoo's PTS is hard masked :confused:

[Michael]

I fear that most of the tests depend on cygwin, so it's that what gets tested and not raw win7. There should be at least an option to disable these tests.

Cygwin is not touched at all.

[xav_19]

I think this is really cool, because now we can compare virtualization solutions under win and linux (and you can add a leval to that : windows under linux/windows/mac, linux under linux/windows/mac etc...), performance between bench under win and wine, and things like that. Maybe they're will be too much interesting things to test, but that's great anyway !

[discordian]

Hope the Phoronix staff is fair enough to use the Server-Editions of Windows. Otherwise this will be quite devastating... alot Windows Benchmarks even run faster under Wine than directly under Windows (Desktop-Editions).
It has to do with Windows actually reserving cycles for lowlatency task(like audio/video), while Linux doesnt care for anything else but throughput (and thus benchmark scores).

[RealNC]

I just wonder, why Gentoo's PTS is hard masked :confused:

Because the packager thinks it's not ready. I don't know if anyone is still working on it though.

grep phoronix /usr/portage/profiles/package.mask

[V!NCENT]

Man, that OS looks like crap.
Are you serious?:confused:

The taskbar looks like KDE3 with compositing and the advantages of the KDE4 taskbar without the disadvantages + some enhancement KDE4 should take over. The fact that the Windows 7 'Kicker' icon lights up like the sun made it look like shit though... They should not have done that...

And the there is the Window decoration. Geniusly placement of the buttons. And then windows are ofcourse windows so making them look like glass was just plain genius from a design perspective too. The close, minimize and maximize buttons look like the rest of the glass because the color red would be too distracting but when the mouse is on there it glows red.

And the Window decoration is not just transparent, because that way you'd be annoyed by the content underneath it, but blurred to make it even more look like a Window.

And then, finally, on every OS you have an ugly looking toolbar with 'File, View, Help, etc'. Apple thought that they were so smart by placing it on top of the screen, but that is annoying too if you have to move your mouse a lot. So Microsoft just auto-hide it and everytime you need it just press 'Alt'.

Look I am not a Microsoft fan at all! But give credit where it's due...

[L33F3R]

Are you serious?:confused:

The taskbar looks like KDE3 with compositing and the advantages of the KDE4 taskbar without the disadvantages + some enhancement KDE4 should take over. The fact that the Windows 7 'Kicker' icon lights up like the sun made it look like shit though... They should not have done that...

And the there is the Window decoration. Geniusly placement of the buttons. And then windows are ofcourse windows so making them look like glass was just plain genius from a design perspective too. The close, minimize and maximize buttons look like the rest of the glass because the color red would be too distracting but when the mouse is on there it glows red.

And the Window decoration is not just transparent, because that way you'd be annoyed by the content underneath it, but blurred to make it even more look like a Window.

And then, finally, on every OS you have an ugly looking toolbar with 'File, View, Help, etc'. Apple thought that they were so smart by placing it on top of the screen, but that is annoying too if you have to move your mouse a lot. So Microsoft just auto-hide it and everytime you need it just press 'Alt'.

Look I am not a Microsoft fan at all! But give credit where it's due...

I think this is 1 of the few times i need to agree with you. All you people are saying it looks likes shit when its arguably just fine. Get your head out of the penguins ass and view the world as unfiltered as you can. You make us look like a club of blind people.

[myxal]

I think this is 1 of the few times i need to agree with you. All you people are saying it looks likes shit when its arguably just fine. Get your head out of the penguins ass and view the world as unfiltered as you can. You make us look like a club of blind people.
On the one hand, there sure are quite a few people in the community with their head up in penguin's a??, but I find claiming Windows' window management and decoration (of all things) as superior to KDE or even Gnome just laughable.
Geniusly placement of the buttons.<snip>The close, minimize and maximize buttons look like the rest of the glass because the color red would be too distracting but when the mouse is on there it glows red.Care to elaborate? How is it different from the default theme in ubuntu or random other distro?? (Note: I don't use Ubuntu but am pretty sure I saw the glow effect there, and while the default KDE4 theme sucks IMO, a theme I like and has the glow effect was one of the pre-loaded ones. Since the graphics drivers are in the shape they're in and as stable as they are (=NOT), I can't afford translucency or compositing. While useful in full-window translcency, blurred translucent window borders aren't something I care to have.)
And then windows are ofcourse windows so making them look like glass was just plain genius from a design perspective too.Not sure what kind of windows you have but my windows have the glass in the cetnre and the opaque frame on the outside - the opposite of what default Windows theme looks like.And the Window decoration is not just transparent, because that way you'd be annoyed by the content underneath it, but blurred to make it even more look like a Window.See above.
Window decoration? Please. The fact you need it wider than 1 px is evidence of failure to manipulate windows efficiently - like the Alt+left-drag to move a window or Alt+right/middle-drag to resize them. (*waves at OS X users*). There's still no easy way to make random window "always-on-top" without third-party utils or direct involvement from the app's vendor. I don't find multiple desktops particularly useful but not having them at all, I dunno...

There are (lots of) things I'll praise Windows for (ABI compatibility making portable apps possible; allowing the user to install apps into whatever directory they feel like; auto-inflating swapfiles; power management; wifi management that doesn't break in every other version, simplistic GUI-driven utils for the one time you need something simple; dead-simple filesharing; after-the-fact compressed folders; on-line defragmenting...). But window management is one of those things "so exceedingly simplistic that only a caveman would want to use them."

I'm looking forward to graphics benchmarks

[V!NCENT]

On the one hand, there sure are quite a few people in the community with their head up in penguin's a??, but I find claiming Windows' window management[...]
Go back now and actually read the previous posts, because it's about the design of the desktop and not about windows management. Like L33F3R said before; get your head out of it...

and decoration (of all things) as superior to KDE or even Gnome just laughable.
What?! Clear-looks is a copy of Windows XP stylo buttons with Microsoft Office 2003 bars. No! IT is copied.

KDE4 just Mac OS X round style buttons copied, with some ugly gray sprayed over it, just because they can.

Care to elaborate? How is it different from the default theme in ubuntu or random other distro??
Please... buy some glasses...

[...]and while the default KDE4 theme sucks IMO
You just said that you thought it was superior! You're nothing but a fanboy.

Since the graphics drivers are in the shape they're in and as stable as they are (=NOT), I can't afford translucency or compositing.
Once again; what does this have to do with the Windows 7 look? PS: Windows 7 does have stable drivers...

Not sure what kind of windows you have but my windows have the glass in the cetnre and the opaque frame on the outside - the opposite of what default Windows theme looks like.
And your window also has a firefox sticker on it with an 'X' on it too? Puh-lease...

I don't find multiple desktops particularly useful but not having them at all, I dunno...
Yeah they are not useful but let's bash Windows for not having them. Well Windows DOES have multiple desktops with a free-of-charge Powertoys package from Microsoft itself: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/Downloads/powertoys/Xppowertoys.mspx

[myxal]

Go back now and actually read the previous posts, because it's about the design of the desktop and not about windows management. Like L33F3R said before; get your head out of it...


What?! Clear-looks is a copy of Windows XP stylo buttons with Microsoft Office 2003 bars. No! IT is copied.I thought we were talking about Aero, which is the default.. Clearlooks looks like the XP or the "classic theme" from windows, and I love the latter. As for XP theme - not to bad, but overly large window decorations for my taste.

KDE4 just Mac OS X round style buttons copied, with some ugly gray sprayed over it, just because they can.


Please... buy some glasses...Hold on a sec, are we talking about design or just bashing on poor choice of colors? I guess you could put that under "design" (and infuriate people who actually design the interface, in terms of behaviour, placement, dimensions, etc..), the ease of customization of KDE/Gnome makes the default theme/colors a moot point as far as I'm concerned.
Plastik (the theme I use in KDE4, very similar to Clearlooks/Windows "classic" and XP themes): (by default) three buttons (minimize, maximize and close, which highlight/glow red on mouse-over, in the top-right corner of the window, customizable button placement;
Aero: same as above, minus the customizable buttons, plus close button slightly wider, blurred translucent decoration and small details that are necessary as a result (window title text outlining)
I ask again: what's the great design difference I should be seeing here (apart from the translucency, which I'm getting to below)?

You just said that you thought it was superior! You're nothing but a fanboy.Up there I was talking about window management, not the default theme/colors. Edit: Come to think of it where did I claim that either was superior?? All I said was that I don't find Aero as superior and Clearlooks/Plastik/XP/classic are roughly equal (even you just said they are a copy; go figure).


Once again; what does this have to do with the Windows 7 look? PS: Windows 7 does have stable drivers...
Uhh, I'm referring to linux here ^_^' (yes, I actually said that linux graphics drivers suck - which is why I can't have the translucent blurred window decorations, the main difference from Windows) Windows drivers aren't exactly perfect but at least one can update/downgrade them easily at will and all the hardware features are actually supported.

And your window also has a firefox sticker on it with an 'X' on it too? Puh-lease...What I was saying is that the default theme looks nothing like a "real" window - you just gave a reason why it's not even worth trying - so what exactly was the following quote supposed to mean?>And the Window decoration is not just transparent, because that way you'd be annoyed by the content underneath it, but blurred to make it even more look like a Window.While we're at bad analogies, real windows have shades. Windows doesn't do window shading and while KDE/Gnome do, it's not really analogous to real-world shades.


Yeah they are not useful but let's bash Windows for not having them. Well Windows DOES have multiple desktops with a free-of-charge Powertoys package from Microsoft itself: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/Downloads/powertoys/Xppowertoys.mspx
I said I don't find them useful but this apparently not a common opinion. And since I don't use them that much, I can't compare the quality of implementation/integration of Windows/KDE/Gnome.

Edit: I should've added this in the first post but just to be clear, this is all my opinion. I'm not a designer, I just voice what each interface feels like when I use it. I have yet to hear anyone bash the window decoration design of Gnome/KDE and favor Windows. A lot of apps do suck and integrate poorly but decorations are on-par, and management features are superior to that of WIndows. They're certainly not the reason I'd switch to windows (and there are plenty of reasons I'd do that).

[diagonal_mambo]

I do wonder what exactly is genius about the placement of the close/maximise/minimise buttons. Is it that they're sitting flush with the top of the window border? Wow, inspired...

The transparency and blur is nice, but I think a little overdone. The blur in particular looks very awkward. The transparency is fine, except that the window contents are entirely opaque. They don't gel well. However, they do get points for being able to do it: anyone remember the Murrine work to get Vista-style transparencies to Linux? Anyone using it?

Also, congratulations Windows 7 on finally getting an innovative window management feature. I refer, of course, to being able to drag windows to the sides/top of the screen. About time.

[V!NCENT]

I do wonder what exactly is genius about the placement of the close/maximise/minimise buttons. Is it that they're sitting flush with the top of the window border? Wow, inspired...
It's the fact that you cannot do anything interesting with these buttons, yet it's very different from squares and circles. That in my opinion makes it genius because I thought no one could do anything else with these things.

The blur in particular looks very awkward. The transparency is fine, except that the window contents are entirely opaque.
It's blurred as if everything behind it is out of focus. Like depth of field.

Also, congratulations Windows 7 on finally getting an innovative window management feature. I refer, of course, to being able to drag windows to the sides/top of the screen. About time.
That is not even something that I would realy care about msyelf. However the fact how the 'program-in-window' functions are integrated are awesome. For example IE8 is an icon on a button on the taskbar, right? But when you download something the button starts functioning as a progress bar and thereby showing the user some valuable information.

All these touches are awesome. But I prefer KDE4 on Linux with a magnitude of ten more :)

[diagonal_mambo]

I'm still not getting the whole genius thing, sorry. They're squares...with rounded bottoms...sitting flush with the top of the border. That's hardly genius.

As for the blur, I get it. I know what they're doing, and I like it. What I meant was, it's too strong. I've not used it, so I don't know if that's configurable or not.

The only thing wrong with your description of the 'program-in-a-window function' is that it's using IE8. How does it work with Chrome?

[V!NCENT]

I'm still not getting the whole genius thing, sorry. They're squares...with rounded bottoms...sitting flush with the top of the border. That's hardly genius.
Not everyone has the same opnion and likes ;) And that's probably a good thing...

As for the blur, I get it. I know what they're doing, and I like it. What I meant was, it's too strong. I've not used it, so I don't know if that's configurable or not.
The only thing that is configurable is the color of the window border.

The only thing wrong with your description of the 'program-in-a-window function' is that it's using IE8.
Too right ;)

How does it work with Chrome?
I don't know if this stuff is in a hidden API or a documented one. I have only tried Windows 7 for a week or so (release candidate). I don't know if Chrome uses this functionality...

[kraftman]

There are (lots of) things I'll praise Windows for (ABI compatibility making portable apps possible; allowing the user to install apps into whatever directory they feel like; auto-inflating swapfiles; power management; wifi management that doesn't break in every other version, simplistic GUI-driven utils for the one time you need something simple; dead-simple filesharing; after-the-fact compressed folders; on-line defragmenting...). But window management is one of those things "so exceedingly simplistic that only a caveman would want to use them."

I know those are your opinions, but I don't see a single problem in making portable apps on Linux - there are such apps, you can install packages to directories you like to (and thanks, but I hate windows way of installing - I prefer repos), auto inflating swap file... but Windoze had idiotic way (or still has) in using swap file, power management and wifi management as far as I remember never broke for me (except madwifi drivers, but it's another story), can you point what broke for you? About those simplistic GUI-driven utils I don't know what are you talking about, on-line defragmentation afaik Ext4 supports it.

[myxal]

I know those are your opinions, but I don't see a single problem in making portable apps on Linux - there are such apps,Really? Where are they? Or am I expexted to do it myself from the tarball version? you can install packages to directories you like to How do I do that? I consider the fact this is not immediately obvious as another problem. (and thanks, but I hate windows way of installing - I prefer repos),I prefer repos too, it's the package manager utility (I use aptitude) which could use more user input. I agree that repos are the way to go, definitely easier to deal with. auto inflating swap file... but Windoze had idiotic way (or still has) in using swap file,Idiotic in what way? I definitely prefer swap files over partitions (that the Ubuntu installer insists on a partition is mind-boggling at this point) and given a choice between self-inflating swap files and having the system slow down to a screeching halt when there's not enough virtual memory, I'll take the former, thankyou ;) power management and wifi management as far as I remember never broke for me (except madwifi drivers, but it's another story), can you point what broke for you?Good for you, I'm using Kubuntu and the network manager widget in 9.04 was unusable for WPA-enterprise (didn't even try to connect). 9.10 uses knetworkmanager which pretty much just works, but something down the stack (WPA supplicant or the driver) causes AP-scans to randomly fail and NM sees no networks. If this is with the (best-supported?) intel3945, I can't imagine what the owners of broadcom must be going through. More omportantly though, I'm still waiting for GUI-driven ICS and preferably bridging/bonding, custom MAC etc. (nope, using /etc/network/interfaces doesn't work for me). About those simplistic GUI-driven utils I don't know what are you talking about,For example, the filezila FTP server - install, run and have a server with accounts in minutes. On linux, the are some ftp servers I could install, but they're all conf-file driven AFAIK and have no graphical console. Without reading the manual, I have no idea where to go from installing the software. Another example - solarwinds TFTP server: Run, select directory, click start, done. Ready to read/save random Cisco IOS image/configuration/etc in mere seconds, no manual. No such thing on linux AFAIK. on-line defragmentation afaik Ext4 supports it.It will support it at some point, I think it's still not implemented. This after what, 15-20 years since online defragmentation worked in DOS? My best shot at defragmenting files on Linux seems to be to buy another HD and copy over all the files one by one. EDIT: Oh, and don't forget this will do nothing to help defragment other filesystems, notably FAT.

[kraftman]

Really? Where are they? Or am I expexted to do it myself from the tarball version?

It depends what you mean. In example I can use tarballs, Debian packages, Ubuntu packages, Ubuntu packages from previous version and they work. Can I run win98 or xp binaries in win7 natively?

How do I do that? I consider the fact this is not immediately obvious as another problem.Maybe this way: yum --installroot= but it probably depends on package config ( you can change it). However, if it's not what you expect it can be 'disadvantage' of not having something called registry, but I'm glad we don't have this thing. ;)

Idiotic in what way? I definitely prefer swap files over partitions (that the Ubuntu installer insists on a partition is mind-boggling at this point) and given a choice between self-inflating swap files and having the system slow down to a screeching halt when there's not enough virtual memory, I'll take the former, thankyou ;)I have nothing against this and I would also prefer this way :) I meant idiotic, because Windows uses swap while there's still enough memory left and things slow down.

For example, the filezila FTP server - install, run and have a server with accounts in minutes. On linux, the are some ftp servers I could install, but they're all conf-file driven AFAIK and have no graphical console. Without reading the manual, I have no idea where to go from installing the software. Another example - solarwinds TFTP server: Run, select directory, click start, done. Ready to read/save random Cisco IOS image/configuration/etc in mere seconds, no manual. No such thing on linux AFAIK.In this case it can be like you said.

Good for you, I'm using Kubuntu and the network manager widget in 9.04 was unusable for WPA-enterprise (didn't even try to connect). 9.10 uses knetworkmanager which pretty much just works, but something down the stack (WPA supplicant or the driver) causes AP-scans to randomly fail and NM sees no networks. If this is with the (best-supported?) intel3945, I can't imagine what the owners of broadcom must be going through. More omportantly though, I'm still waiting for GUI-driven ICS and preferably bridging/bonding, custom MAC etc. (nope, using /etc/network/interfaces doesn't work for me).It's probably Kubuntu fault, there are known bugs in knetworkmanager (or in some other Kubuntu package) and it seems they won't fix them till next release...

[myxal]

It depends what you mean. In example I can use tarballs, Debian packages, Ubuntu packages, Ubuntu packages from previous version and they work. Can I run win98 or xp binaries in win7 natively? I think we've got a misunderstanding here - by portabble apps, I meant something like this (http://portableapps.com/) - apps you extract to a random directory in which the app is fully contained - settings, temporary files, pretty much everything. This allows you to use a USB flash drive as the app root and run the app on any windows PC you connect it to.

With some tweaking, I believe one cat turn a tarball into a portable app, but the incompatibilities in some low-level libraries + binary incompatibilities between binaries created by different versions of gcc mean the stuff rarely works across multiple distros.

[kraftman]

I think we've got a misunderstanding here - by portabble apps, I meant something like this (http://portableapps.com/) - apps you extract to a random directory in which the app is fully contained - settings, temporary files, pretty much everything. This allows you to use a USB flash drive as the app root and run the app on any windows PC you connect it to.

Sorry, my fault. This looks interesting.

With some tweaking, I believe one cat turn a tarball into a portable app, but the incompatibilities in some low-level libraries + binary incompatibilities between binaries created by different versions of gcc mean the stuff rarely works across multiple distros.I consider some different distros as different OS'es ;) Maybe it won't be a big problem on distros which follow LSB, but I'm not sure.

[V!NCENT]

I never unstoods why all these whiners never got together and said: Hey let's make a binary compatible API just like Wine and all use that. That way we only need to port the layer. Well people... you do not even need to make that freaking layer because it already exists: GNUstep: http://www.gnustep.org/

Why doesn't everybody stop whining if they do not really care? And why do people who do care that whine do not take any action?

[DoDoENT]

Can I run win98 or xp binaries in win7 natively?

Yes, you can.

I meant idiotic, because Windows uses swap while there's still enough memory left and things slow down.

Fedora does that too. I had to set vm.swappiness to 0 in order to avoid such behavior.