Phoronix Redblog

[Michael]

For a few weeks now I have been solely using an ATI Radeon X1800XT in my personal system as a trial to see how the times have changed for ATI/NVIDIA under Linux with their proprietary drivers. I have setup this blog @ http://redblog.phoronix.com/ and it has been going since June 1, 2006.

Feel free to check it out and provide any questions/comments/suggestions that you might have -- including anything you may want me to cover during this ATI Linux challenge. You are more than welcome to share your NVIDIA --> ATI switching experience under Linux as well, or even vise versa in our NVIDIA Linux forum.

[niniendowarrior]

Michael,

Why is it that you never seem to experience real problems with it? Is the driver update that good? I'm using the one version down and I don't think I need to go down the details that we've been through before. :P

Anyway, great blog!

[Michael]

niniendowarrior,

If I recall correctly from your previous emails, your key concerns were fglrx performance and stability. I have certainly voiced my opinion about the below-average frame-rate performance with these drivers in the blog, and yes it would be great to have ATI address the performance delta with their fglrx drivers, which hopefully they shall be doing over time.

In regards to your stability comments, I have yet to run into any real fglrx stability problems in my day-to-day usage.

[niniendowarrior]

Well, that is good news to hear Michael. The below-average frame-rate is to be expected from ATi. I'm kind of resigned to that fact.

I hope to hear more from your blog. On a note, could you also post the aticonfig commandline options you added? I may have missed it but I did not come across any from the blog...

[Michael]

For the standard horizontal Big Desktop configuration:

aticonfig --dtop=horizontal

http://www.phoronix.com/redblog/?p=blog&i=MjU1MA Then when examining other features, such as FSAA, other options were used -- as noted in the respective posts.

[niniendowarrior]

My bad. I should pay more attention to what I read. Thanks for pointing it out Michael.

[eatmuchpie]

In your blog, could you please make some comparisons between windows performance and linux performance in, for example, doom3. I'm currently thinking about whether to buy a 1900xt or a 7900gtx for linux, and I'm sure many other people would be interested as well. I would prefer to buy a 1900xt for the better image quality, and for some games i will have to boot into windows to play, but if the game is supported in linux I would prefer to play it in linux.

Thanks for the good work!

[Michael]

In your blog, could you please make some comparisons between windows performance and linux performance in, for example, doom3. I'm currently thinking about whether to buy a 1900xt or a 7900gtx for linux, and I'm sure many other people would be interested as well. I would prefer to buy a 1900xt for the better image quality, and for some games i will have to boot into windows to play, but if the game is supported in linux I would prefer to play it in linux.

Thanks for the good work!

I'll try to get some Windows v. Linux ATI comparison numbers for the X1800XT (though the Windows installation may result in the loss of sanity :eek:). If your interested in more general numbers with ATI between Linux and Windows, there is our ATI A Year in Review 2005 (http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=5417) article, which does compare the drivers throughout the past year.

[niniendowarrior]

Although I do like to see Windows vs Linux performance numbers... they tend to be quite disheartening to see. I don't think it's quite relevant to see the numbers as it is now.

Michael, would it be possible for you to study the fglrx drivers and sort of put the drivers under the knife? Kind of like what Anandtech does with the Windows CATALYST drivers. Sort of disect it and figure where and how the modifications have been done on ATi's driver. This gives everyone great insight on how the Linux drivers have evolved.

[Michael]

A large driver round-up is planned for the future at Phoronix, and will be much more thorough than our AYiR (A Year in Review) articles. It will consist of an analysis of image quality, performance, features, and other fine details.

[niniendowarrior]

That's great. I also would hope that the article covers how the graphics card architecture supposedly works with respect to the drivers. I'm sure there will be great discoveries to be had when studying every innards. Perhaps it can even help ATi fix the drivers. :)

[DrCR]

Hey, just wanted to say I appreciate the blog.

One thought: Could you do some DirectX gaming tests?

Thanks again,
DrCR

[Svartalf]

My only real "complaint" about the series is that you're using an 1800XT card. What of the experience from the laptop angle? It'd probably be a different story then... About half the performance or a little less than for a Linux user if you're talking that story. It's not a pretty picture then. Otherwise, it's an excellent series (I mean, the experience from the mid to top end is much better than the bottom end, but it's still sub-par, you just don't see it because the cards are fast enough...).

[Michael]

Some mobile coverage will be in the blog using a Mobility Radeon X300 and Mobility Radeon X1400.

[Svartalf]

Some mobile coverage will be in the blog using a Mobility Radeon X300 and Mobility Radeon X1400.

That works. That'd make the picture more complete (Though I wish I had an X1400 instead of the X300... Sigh... The thing's something of a disappointment. Works decently, serviceably under Windows, but it stinks on ice for Linux... It's enough to be a blocker for doing much of my development by remote for LGP with this laptop I'm currently using...).

[niniendowarrior]

Hey Michael,

Been reading the redblog and I do start to feel you might want to expand your distribution tests. I do understand from your emails why Fedora is used, but there are other distributions in question as well. It would also be nice to check compatibility with the more obscure distributions as well.

Cool blog, as always.

[DrCR]

Ohhh, the distro voting begins lol.

I'll go ahead and put a plug in for VectorLinux though. :D

[Michael]

Hey Michael,

Been reading the redblog and I do start to feel you might want to expand your distribution tests. I do understand from your emails why Fedora is used, but there are other distributions in question as well. It would also be nice to check compatibility with the more obscure distributions as well.

Cool blog, as always.

ATI's Linux department does allow distribution vendors to participate in their Beta program, as well as helping them out with generating packaging scripts for the fglrx drivers and their specific distribution. If there is a Linux distribution with ATI fglrx installation or usage problems contact the owner and ask them to contact ATI Technologies.

If the distribution developers don't have access to Radeon hardware, tell them to contact me and I would generally be glad to try out their scripts for them, etc...

~ Michael

[Michael]

While there are a few days left, what are you all most wanting in the fglrx Linux drivers when it comes to features that it currently doesn't have?

[dmlog]

While there are a few days left, what are you all most wanting in the fglrx Linux drivers when it comes to features that it currently doesn't have?
No one. Stability and performance problem - not good support for normal and quality work. Well, after 3 years with ATI (on MS systems) I'm buy NVidia 6600GT card for my PC. Maybe previous x1600 PRO slightly faster in new games with shaders, but this not interest for me. On NV i have more faster 2D and 3D graphics in Linux (compiz working very nice in KDE), no stupid console bugs, and working TV-out. Goodbye ATI.

Sorry for offtopic.

[James]

In ATIs defence, they've gotten a lot better over the past couple years. I'd certainly be willing to try them again next time I go video card shopping.

[niniendowarrior]

Michael,

Please don't stop the blog! I know there's only a few days, but I always felt it was a little too short for anything.

Features... hmmm... how about the TV-out feature? I noticed the tab was removed in later drivers in the control panel. What happened to that feature?

I think ATi is a competent group, they are just focused on different things. Stability and performance of the FGLRX is not something ATi is concerned about, so I'm making sure I stay away from those cards.

[Michael]

Michael,

Please don't stop the blog! I know there's only a few days, but I always felt it was a little too short for anything.

Features... hmmm... how about the TV-out feature? I noticed the tab was removed in later drivers in the control panel. What happened to that feature?

I think ATi is a competent group, they are just focused on different things. Stability and performance of the FGLRX is not something ATi is concerned about, so I'm making sure I stay away from those cards. Well, so far in this time-frame, I have been able to cover pretty much all of the popular native Linux games and their quality/performance, various features (PowerPlay, Big Desktop), overall performance, etc... There isn't too many significant ATI items that are left to be discussed where it could be kept up on a daily basis.

However, it may be an interesting thing to take up in 6 months or a year from now to see how the performance and features have evolved.

TV-out is currently not supported by the Radeon X1000 series (though it will hopefully come soon), however, for the remainder of the ATI cards, that all still can be enabled/disabled through aticonfig. There is also the very nice dynamic display management options for that. The feature is still very much in the drivers, they have simply removed it from fireglcontrolpanel.

Why would you say that ATI doesn't focus on stability? In my experience thus far, I have run into absolutely no stability problems. I realize there are a few extraneous cases where on GDM/KDM login or logout it may lock up with some users, or like problems, but once you're up and running, it would almost be safe to say that the drivers are at least as stable as NVIDIA's.

[niniendowarrior]

The way I see it. If ATi was focusing on that, we would already have at least an official workaround from them (kdm/gdm lock ups)... or even a sign of any acknowledgement that they are working on it.

I've tried driver after driver since 8.16 and none of them ever fix that problem.

[niniendowarrior]

Hey Michael,

I think it would be nice to have to have Image Quality comparisons Windows vs Linux drivers and see how the Linux drivers perform.

[Michael]

Well well, the day has finally come. It is now day number 50; the final day for this ATI Linux trial. With that said, it's about time for me to share some concluding remarks regarding ATI's recent Linux efforts with their monthly fglrx display drivers. On the first day, I didn't know whether I would be able to survive without going green (no pun intended), but towards the end of this experience, it was almost like achieving nirvana...

http://www.phoronix.com/redblog/index.php?p=blog&i=NDg1MA

Feel free to discuss.

[wazoo42]

I'd like to bring up one point that hasn't been mentioned yet (I skimmed the earlier posts, so if it has please forgive me), and that is XGL/Compiz. One place where ATI needs work is playing nicely with the new 3D desktop. I realize this isn't a show stopper, especially now since XGL/Compiz are still in their infancies, but I think it will become an issue very soon. Perhaps this will be resolved with xorg 7.1 support, but as for right now I have to say that not even being able to start the x server b/c it hardlocks the machine is a very bad thing.

[niniendowarrior]

http://www.phoronix.com/redblog/index.php?p=blog&i=NDg1MA

Feel free to discuss.


Hey Michael, thanks for the blog and your insight. I appreciate the effort and I hope we hear from ATi soon about great driver improvements.

[lusikka]

First of all, I'd like to thank you for your great blog! Secondly, in my opinion, the installation process is a piece of cake, it's just that the drivers are sucky.
There was some problems("failed to dependencies") with Livna (http://rpm.livna.org/), when the packages got renamed and some people are still having problems. Couple of days ago I found a way to install the Livna-drivers, and the problem seems to be in YUM. If someone's interested, read http://lusikka.laatikko.org/blog/?p=39.
Keep up the good work!

[Rob Williams]

Thanks for the detailed read Michael, it was a great run. In the end, I am happy to see where ATI is going, but I demand the best gaming performance so I am going to stick with NVIDIA. I may pick up some cheapy ATI card in the future just to test it out though.

[pipe13]

I wanna thanks Micheal 2. I installed FC6 two weaks ago and some new diagnostics in Xorg 7.1 informed me the Quadro NVS 400 I'd been unseccessfully trying to make play with Nvidia's drivers was basically hardware toast, not a driver problem. Based on redblog I bought an x700 open-box special from NewEgg, and it works fine, albeit Bigdesktop only spans two displays :( (but I couldn't afford a new Quadro and the x700 price was right.)

One Livna issue that kinda surprised me: I was originally running kernel 2.6.17-1.2139_FC5, upon which Livna's kmod-fglrx 1.2.6.17_1.2157_FC5 (8.26.18) installed just fine :eek: Just FYI and something to watch out for. Be sure to run "uname -a" and "yum info kmod-fglrx" before doing "yum install fglrx" to make certain yer vmlinuz and yer fglrx are both reading from the same page. Don't count on yer yum checkin' it for you.

[Michael]

After a short break, the Phoronix Redblog is back and ready to roll! This comeback is due to the amount of messages received asking for the blog's return and the overwhelming help users continue to request. It will no longer be updated on a daily basis, but new blog entries will come along when there is information worth passing along. As this blog continues, I will continue to focus on areas for ATI's fglrx department to improve upon, successes/failures I encounter with my day-to-day usage of ATI's Linux drivers, etc...

http://www.phoronix.com/redblog/?p=blog&i=NDkwMA

[Michael]

Fedora Core 6 ATI information added to the blog, with instructions for proper installation.