5 Months And Still No UT3 For Linux

[Svartalf]

I think its very near to being a lost cause, until probably when the succesor to windows vista is released.

It's far from it. It's a "lost cause" because people are so enamored with "oooh...shiny..." type things that they won't quit doing the counterproductive things to get what they're actually after. The real truth of the matter is that we're just in a hole from some downturn items and the things I keep telling people about. Keep buying Windows titles, keep that whole monster, with it's concomitant network effect, going for some time to go- or go a different route.

[Svartalf]

Again, Linux is just a newborn on the computer retail market. In time we'll get some AAA 0-day.

Heh... If everyone thinks it was something that simply happened with the Windows title space, you'd be mistaken. Microsoft had an entertaining time getting Windows, more specifically, Windows 95, taken seriously for the development of games. They had an easier time of it than we've had because you could run a DOS game in that world (can't do a lot of them without DOSBox or similar on XP, or better yet Vista...)- and everyone was doing DOS titles for the large part. This isn't any different, really.

[me262]

I was more thinking it's the reason why Microsoft has the 91% (and falling) concentration of the major market. Where Windows was sold on nearly every consumer PC for 10 years (exception being the Mac, which did poorly for a while). Probably should have mentioned that.
Apple started being viable again the past few years, and we popped out onto the major market courtesy of Dell just recently.

But yeah, I remember Win2k/XP came out and broke a lot of DOS-based and DOS4GW games, although in the end of that transition more games used the Win9x interface. (Starcraft, GTA2, and Need for Speed 3: Hot Pursuit are the three I can think of off the top of my head without getting into Microsoft's own titles).
We actually have some play like that, where Win9x had DOS, we have cross-platform technology (OpenGL, OpenAL).

You're right. For lack of a better phrase, we're in that boat right now.

[xav1r]

But the difference is, people eventually had to comply to windows 95 and its new UI, since there was no alternative, and ms had a monopoly then, like it does now too, something which linux doesnt have, right now. Yea, I remember, when windows 95 was starting to be installed in pcs, i said, dammit, none of my DOS/win3.11 are gonna work with this, screw it, im not switching to windows 95. Everyone eventually did, because ms has the complete monopoly.

[Extreme Coder]

I just hope that right now, our situation will improve, not get worse.

[Thetargos]

I just hope that right now, our situation will improve, not get worse.

And most likely it will, however, maybe not at the rate we would like to.

[Extreme Coder]

And most likely it will, however, maybe not at the rate we would like to.
Yeah, I guess, I'm fine with Warcraft III on Cedega at the moment (although I'd love to know why Alt-Tab crashes it)

[Chris]

Keep buying Windows titles, keep that whole monster, with it's concomitant network effect, going for some time to go- or go a different route.
But again, what else can we do? We buy a Windows game to run in Wine or something, and it's supposedly "a Windows game sale" with absolutely no positive effect on Linux gaming. We don't buy a Windows game, it's less of an incentive for companies to support the PC at all. It's not like we can "partially" buy it to support the PC and not Windows, without it already supporting the target platform of choice.

The current situation is that gamers are often forced to choose between using Linux OR playing AAA/new games.. but there is no need to be mutually exclusive like that. Windows has plenty of tools that are also available on Linux (OpenGL, Cg, OpenAL, FFmpeg, etc; many of which are even free!), so there's little reason you can't code-once-compile-everywhere and not lose any Windows users. And as Svartalf said, support is not that expensive. The only reason there is such an arbitrary exclusivity like that is because of a certain Redmond company that can throw around thousands of dollars like pennies, to make such cross-platformness more difficult than it needs to be (even for most games that are designed to be cross-platform, they can't even just use GL everywhere; they gotta use D3D on Windows and GL elsewhere (then guess which version would get more development attention)).

So short of paying what Microsoft could, how do you think we should fix this problem? How do we get companies to (better) support the cross-platform, Windows-compatible APIs and tools that already exist?

[niniendowarrior]

You know, I think if LGP convinced itself to build its own AAA title and not port, the rate of conversion might be quicker. Or... maybe not. hehe.

It takes a huge amount of money to build that... perhaps even more than porting.

[Svartalf]

It takes a huge amount of money to build that... perhaps even more than porting.

More than porting by a longshot- it's WHY they typically ask what we'd consider ludicrous amounts for the rights to port. They want to see the return on the risk they take (and they DO take one- typically in the form of the risk of IP leakage amongst other things...) when they allow a port.

You can get lucky and come up with an AAA title on a shoestring- but it more often than not takes easily half a million to two to make a good AAA title, especially with all the eye candy that many people insist upon having in it.

[me262]

You can get lucky and come up with an AAA title on a shoestring- but it more often than not takes easily half a million to two to make a good AAA title, especially with all the eye candy that many people insist upon having in it.
There's also various options at that stage. Buy the right to use and modify an engine or develop one in-house. Many people are now buying existing engines because it's (supposedly) cheaper and you're that much closer to completion.
Speaking of bought engines... want to look into XIII? IIRC it uses the Unreal 2 engine.

[Svartalf]

Speaking of bought engines... want to look into XIII? IIRC it uses the Unreal 2 engine.

We might be able to talk someone into a port. Depends on the licensing they obtained from Epic as to whether we'd have to retain rights on the Unreal Tech 2 engine or not. If so, I'd have to retain $75k for the rights to the engine before we talked to Ubisoft about it.

Intriguing prospect, really. I'll say it's a maybe for now because it was a AAA title, but it's got a decent chance of making a prospect over a few of the other games on the list.

[deanjo]

Still no client yet but it looks like Epic has now signed on with EA as well.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/38913/122/

Not exactly promising news for future linux games from Epic.

[Fixxer_Linux]

As it has been done for "Elephant dream" to promote the usage of blender and other graphical application, is there noone out there to launch some AAA game project to promote OpenGL and other open source technologies ??

We could even imagine that this AAA title should be linux exclusive, as it is done with consoles, to promote the linux platform ??

[RobbieAB]

Or even easier, proof their is a market. Show a market, and they will come. Without that proof, forget it. LGP are trying, but don't seem to be succeeding, so perhaps instead of looking at AAA titles, and instead of looking at mid-range mainstream, look at niche. Niche is more likely to be willing to release the A class games cheaply as they are working on smaller margins...

[NeoBrain]

As it has been done for "Elephant dream" to promote the usage of blender and other graphical application, is there noone out there to launch some AAA game project to promote OpenGL and other open source technologies ??

We could even imagine that this AAA title should be linux exclusive, as it is done with consoles, to promote the linux platform ??

http://www.yofrankie.org/

[Chris]

As it has been done for "Elephant dream" to promote the usage of blender and other graphical application, is there noone out there to launch some AAA game project to promote OpenGL and other open source technologies ??
The Doom 3 engine, perhaps? And the Unreal Engine 2.. both of those use OpenGL (UE2 uses D3D by default in Windows, but the GL renderer is still available), and OpenAL (D3E only uses that when EAX is available, though), and Ogg Vorbis. So Doom 3, Prey, Quake 4, Unreal Tournament 2003/4. Not sure what the status of OpenGL with Unreal Engine 3 is, but that still uses OpenAL at least.. so might be able to add UT3 and games based on that engine (Gears of War, I think?)..

We could even imagine that this AAA title should be linux exclusive, as it is done with consoles, to promote the linux platform ??
That would be interesting to see. But you'd have to find a competant developer/publisher that would be more interested in promoting Linux than seeing monetary returns for the project. While they may still see enough monetary returns, making it Linux-exclusive (as opposed to cross-platform) would be taking a chance. And if they make stupid decisions (pervasive DRM, high price, etc), they might just lose out.

[deanjo]

The blender team is using the Crystal engine (I don't know why, but anyhows it will be nice to see it added to PTS to represent other engines) *cough* Michael *cough*.

OpenAL is already the preferred audio engine thanks to Vista not offering DX accelerated sound. (Who would have thought that MS being to boost to a FOSS API?) Too bad that MS can't handle the FOSS solutions already out there. Instead they are trying to bring out their own GPGPU solution despite having a much more mature and soon to be released solution (openCL),
]

[xav1r]

The Doom 3 engine, perhaps? And the Unreal Engine 2.. both of those use OpenGL (UE2 uses D3D by default in Windows, but the GL renderer is still available), and OpenAL (D3E only uses that when EAX is available, though), and Ogg Vorbis. So Doom 3, Prey, Quake 4, Unreal Tournament 2003/4. Not sure what the status of OpenGL with Unreal Engine 3 is, but that still uses OpenAL at least.. so might be able to add UT3 and games based on that engine (Gears of War, I think?)..


That would be interesting to see. But you'd have to find a competant developer/publisher that would be more interested in promoting Linux than seeing monetary returns for the project. While they may still see enough monetary returns, making it Linux-exclusive (as opposed to cross-platform) would be taking a chance. And if they make stupid decisions (pervasive DRM, high price, etc), they might just lose out.

What about Mark Shuttleworth's Canonical? He might be interested, and he has the resources (money) to pull it off.

[xav1r]

...man, im so excited, next month it'll be a YEAR since they announced a linux client for ut3!! Such anniversary calls for a celebration!! :D:D

[D0pamine]

...man, im so excited, next month it'll be a YEAR since they announced a linux client for ut3!! Such anniversary calls for a celebration!! :D:D

yeh dude , mass burnings on youtube

[Dragonlord]

Come on guys... you really expected THEM to make a Linux client after they announced some time ago that they want to pull away from PC game development? That's like hoping for an answer from a person 6 feet under :/

[D0pamine]

they also announced there _WOULD_ be a linux client

[gilboa]

It'll be cold day in hell...

[deanjo]

they also announced there _WOULD_ be a linux client

Saying that there would be is one thing, actually delivering it is quite another.

[D0pamine]

Saying that there would be is one thing, actually delivering it is quite another.

I'm a UT* nut , they have always supplied a GNU/Linux client why they have not this time is beyond my knowlege - we can only speculate why not but i still bought it because i owe them , 4 years of gaming pleasure is worth more than $50 . I just wish they could be honest with their customers and fans . War Tourist appearing in this thread and simply stating nothing other than the epic line doesnt help , I have already bought the game and i will burn it in public if they burn the idea of a GNU/Linux client which after one year we can all safely say they have. Please do not flame me for 'mouthing off' as i'm one pretty pissed off fan....
I'm starting to think that RMS is right when he says all software should be free ( nothing about artwork ) - long live NEXUIZ!
Anyway , god bless phoronix for giving me the oportunity to vent my anger :) thank you!

[xav1r]

I'm a UT* nut , they have always supplied a GNU/Linux client why they have not this time is beyond my knowlege - we can only speculate why not but i still bought it because i owe them , 4 years of gaming pleasure is worth more than $50 . I just wish they could be honest with their customers and fans . War Tourist appearing in this thread and simply stating nothing other than the epic line doesnt help , I have already bought the game and i will burn it in public if they burn the idea of a GNU/Linux client which after one year we can all safely say they have. Please do not flame me for 'mouthing off' as i'm one pretty pissed off fan....
I'm starting to think that RMS is right when he says all software should be free ( nothing about artwork ) - long live NEXUIZ!
Anyway , god bless phoronix for giving me the oportunity to vent my anger :) thank you!

If you read closely and understand the history of software development since it became a "mass marketed" (read profitable) product, specially microsoft's history, you'll come to the conclusion that RMS is anything but an extremist. I'd say he's too moderate even.

[Svartalf]

If you read closely and understand the history of software development since it became a "mass marketed" (read profitable) product, specially microsoft's history, you'll come to the conclusion that RMS is anything but an extremist. I'd say he's too moderate even.

He's a reasonable gent, really. Had a nice long conversation with him when I ended up walking with him and part of his group that were heading off to the Children's Science Museum for the celebration party in San Jose the year he got the Linus Torvalds Award at Linux World Expo. He struck me as a brilliant individual, first off. He's also someone who deeply cares about this stuff we call software and the concept that people shouldn't be held hostage with pretty much all the software. I don't wholly agree with his position on everything (Including the GNU/Linux stuff)- but we need people like him around to forge the path forward and to keep us all honest. In some ways, I wish I'd taken up his challenge to help out with the CAD software space, but in the end, I went the path that I, the industry, and the Linux community as a whole needed me to go. :D

[Svartalf]

Saying that there would be is one thing, actually delivering it is quite another.

Having said it and not delivering it is also a bad PR situation...you don't want to have it on record that you can't live up to your promises to your users. Eventually it comes to bite you in the backside. Even MS is beginning to feel the bite from that sort of thing... ;)

[Dandel]

the sole reason i have not bought this game was because of the lack of a linux client... and anyways i still figure a linux/mac client can be put out easy enough if they temporarily disable/remove a few features anyways, like the Physx ( no linux support for this yet.), unrealed ( don't need this either, but it's nice to have ), and whatever else isn't really needed, like in game voice chat.

[Chris]

if they temporarily disable/remove a few features anyways, like the Physx ( no linux support for this yet.)
Food for thought.. nVidia bought AGEIA and now owns PhysX. They recently released Windows drivers for PhysX that use GF8 hardware via CUDA. What are the chances Epic's waiting for nVidia to make Linux PhysX drivers (accelerated via GF8 via CUDA, along with a software driver)?

[xav1r]

Food for thought.. nVidia bought AGEIA and now owns PhysX. They recently released Windows drivers for PhysX that use GF8 hardware via CUDA. What are the chances Epic's waiting for nVidia to make Linux PhysX drivers (accelerated via GF8 via CUDA, along with a software driver)?

one answer: none.

[Chris]

one answer: none.
What makes you think that?

[xav1r]

What makes you think that?

short answer: epic doesnt like linux.

[me262]

I'll rephrase that for you:
Epic doesn't like Linux... anymore.

Regardless of what features it does/does not contain, it's still overpromised.

I think that Epic's policy of "no news is good news" in this matter isn't their best choice. We still need some kind of update.

It's amazing the speed I have with which to forget what I wanted to say originally...

[domkop]

UT3 make good fire, that you were going to say.

[me262]

Too tired to condone, to smart to not condone...

You know, I don't think ... what's his name... Wartourist even is looking in this forums anymore. Haven't seen a post by him the month that I've been here.
Of course, he probably has nothing new to say except "we're working on it".

Good nizzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

[deanjo]

It's amazing the speed I have with which to forget what I wanted to say originally...

Have you tried running memtest86 :p

[WarTourist]

Wartourist even is looking in this forums anymore.

Yep, I check in regularly.

[gilboa]

Yep, I check in regularly.

No offense, but why do I get the distinct feeling that you'll be posting the same message 6 months from now?

- Gilboa

[Forge]

No offense, but why do I get the distinct feeling that you'll be posting the same message 6 months from now?

- Gilboa

Because he will. I think UT3's Linux binaries will be published just after Duke Nukem Forever's Linux binaries.

[Svartalf]

Yep, I check in regularly.

Heh... Shame that this has taken longer than envisioned, WarTourist.

You've got quite a few unhappy people in the Linux community here because of it. I wish you could tell us a bit more so we could gauge our decisions on this more cleanly. 9 months is a bit extreme for a delay, mind. A little more info on precisely WHAT is going on, limited to what generalities all the NDAs, etc. allow, would go a LONG way to making people at least somewhat happier with this circumstance.

Folks...if he's posting in here like he is, that means it IS still a going concern and he wasn't kidding about it being something that took much longer than planned. I just wish he'd tell us a smidge more than he's giving out right at the moment.

[Svartalf]

Because he will. I think UT3's Linux binaries will be published just after Duke Nukem Forever's Linux binaries.

Heh... That'd depend on whether the reports are accurate- that DNF doesn't mean Did Not Finish and we MIGHT just see DNF ship...finally.

If so, you might actually see that happen... >:-) :D

I know, I know...but stranger things HAVE happened in the past. :D

Nine months plus, though, doesn't speak well of the port's fate all the same- and the years that DNF's taken doesn't speak to nicely of the prospects of it either...

[Forge]

Heh... That'd depend on whether the reports are accurate- that DNF doesn't mean Did Not Finish and we MIGHT just see DNF ship...finally.

If so, you might actually see that happen... >:-) :D

I know, I know...but stranger things HAVE happened in the past. :D

Nine months plus, though, doesn't speak well of the port's fate all the same- and the years that DNF's taken doesn't speak to nicely of the prospects of it either...

Actually, I meant that Epic is now dead to me, just like DNF. They could kick out a 100% functional bug-free Linux UT3 client tomorrow, and it would mean very very very little to me. All the friends I wanted to play with have moved on to new titles and I was LEFT BEHIND. I will now repay this favor to Epic.

I look forward to id's next work, they DELIVER what they PROMISE.

[Svartalf]

Actually, I meant that Epic is now dead to me, just like DNF. They could kick out a 100% functional bug-free Linux UT3 client tomorrow, and it would mean very very very little to me. All the friends I wanted to play with have moved on to new titles and I was LEFT BEHIND. I will now repay this favor to Epic.

I think this speaks volumes to something though I'm not quite sure what.

That your friends aren't interested in playing because it's "old" concerns me. "New" isn't "better". Something tells me, though, that the gameplay's not quite as good as UT2k4 (because LOTS of people were still playing it right up until UT3 came out...).

[RobbieAB]

Actually, I meant that Epic is now dead to me, just like DNF. They could kick out a 100% functional bug-free Linux UT3 client tomorrow, and it would mean very very very little to me. All the friends I wanted to play with have moved on to new titles and I was LEFT BEHIND. I will now repay this favor to Epic.

I look forward to id's next work, they DELIVER what they PROMISE.
Again, someone gets it wrong. Instead of complaining that it is late, thank them for it. OK, so they said it would be out a year ago? So what? If they had said nothing, and released it a year after the windows version, would people be praising them not condemning them.

In this business, promises are worth the paper they are written on, and should be taken as intimations of intent, and nothing more. If they release a Linux version, I might buy a copy. Not because I am an avid UT player, I don't play many FPS games, but because it's a Linux version. If I than get 5 hours fun out of it, it's a cheap nights entertainment!

Stop acting as if you are ENTITLED to Linux games. You aren't. Don't slam a company for delivering a Linux game, because they won't ever bother again if you do. You don't train a dog by punishing it, you train it with praise. Try this with the games companies!

[deanjo]

Something tells me, though, that the gameplay's not quite as good as UT2k4 (because LOTS of people were still playing it right up until UT3 came out...).

I'll take the original UT99 over 03/04 any day.

[WarTourist]

Shame that this has taken longer than envisioned

I think we can agree on that :)!

[Svartalf]

I think we can agree on that :)!

Heh... I'm all too familiar with titles that go screwy on you at the 11th hour (Geez...what is it now, two titles, one I was one of the principal devs on and another that I'm finishing gluing all the smoking pieces back together on it... May be taking on a third title that way). I just wish it went smoother for you and we had the game. :D

I'm not one to throw stones at all (not that I would to begin with...)- at least we're not looking at the delay that they are over there in Garland. ;)

[Svartalf]

Again, someone gets it wrong. Instead of complaining that it is late, thank them for it. OK, so they said it would be out a year ago? So what? If they had said nothing, and released it a year after the windows version, would people be praising them not condemning them.

In this business, promises are worth the paper they are written on, and should be taken as intimations of intent, and nothing more. If they release a Linux version, I might buy a copy. Not because I am an avid UT player, I don't play many FPS games, but because it's a Linux version. If I than get 5 hours fun out of it, it's a cheap nights entertainment!

Stop acting as if you are ENTITLED to Linux games. You aren't. Don't slam a company for delivering a Linux game, because they won't ever bother again if you do. You don't train a dog by punishing it, you train it with praise. Try this with the games companies!

Heh... And people wonder why I got to ranting about John Carmack's statement at the QuakeCon keynote he gave this year. ;)

Nice rant, by the by. Shorter than mine was and equally to the point. :D

Folks, it's very, very disappointing and very very unfortunate for us AND Epic that it's gotten this messed up. Let's not go stupid here, k? No Linux client, no sale. Be respectful as RobbieAB was very right about this- had they said nothing and gave it a year later, we'd be talking a different story. Let them know it's not a sale without the Linux client- but be nice about it. Screeching at the providers of the content will NOT get things done for you- like no DRM, like native titles, etc. All you're doing is showing them you're an quarrelous ungrateful consumer- something that most studios and publishers can do without if they're doing fine otherwise.

[Dragonlord]

Oh good god... an Epic guy. Tell your coders they messed up. Coders not able to make a "working installer" should not get a bonus ;)

[Vadi]

Thanks for the edit :)

[Chris]

OK, so they said it would be out a year ago? So what? If they had said nothing, and released it a year after the windows version, would people be praising them not condemning them.
If they had said nothing, it wouldn't have been a broken promise. I don't think it's so much about "Epic not releasing a Linux client" as much as it is "Epic not providing what they said they would". I mean, when you see a popular, very looked-forward-to Windows game get delayed for several months, people bitch. At least there, though, they still get some reassurance.. "it's delayed for.. 6 months". Even if that delay changes, people are still given some indication of when to expect it. Here, what do we have? "It's delayed until.. whenever". Next month? Next year? Might it get cancelled?

That said, yes, we should be thankful for getting a Linux client at all. But I don't think the discontent is entirely unfounded.

[RobbieAB]

If they had said nothing, it wouldn't have been a broken promise. I don't think it's so much about "Epic not releasing a Linux client" as much as it is "Epic not providing what they said they would".

So what? Ok, they said it would be out, and it isn't, so what? Live with it. Bitching isn't going to help. It's not about "They promised and didn't deliver", it's about "Do we want Linux games?". How many Linux versions are they going to sell? 500? 1000? They can just walk away from a market that small, and the amount of grief they are getting here, I wouldn't blame them for deciding that Linux gamers can keep their money.

We may want decent games for Linux, but remember, WE ARE NOT ENTITLED TO THEM! Yes, we may be willing to pay, but with the amount of pain Linux gamers seem intent on causing, why on earth is a big studio going to want to take our money? We ARE being more hassle than we are worth, and it is idiocy like this whole fiasco that is pushing companies away. People need to grow up, and see the light. We can get further by praising the good deeds, and remaining silent about the bad ones than we can by bitching out the bad deeds, and saying little about the good ones.

[deanjo]

We ARE being more hassle than we are worth, and it is idiocy like this whole fiasco that is pushing companies away.


Show me one developer that has said ANYTHING as a sort. I can however show you many that say it's simply not financially feasible.

[Chris]

Bitching isn't going to help.
But it's human nature to do so. Why fault Linux users for bitching when Windows users would do the same thing? I dare say Windows users would be worse if they were treated this way (if for the sole reason that's there's more users and, statistically speaking, more whiners).

Does it make it right? Absolutely not. I'm also not bitching, I'm just trying to explain my perspective on it. But I also can't say I fault someone who's plopped down 50 to 60 dollars on the promise of there being a Linux client, having no update for almost a year (and counting), and thus feels slighted.

And just to be absolutely clear, I don't condone name calling, personal attacks, and the like. Especially towards those that have no say in the matter. I just don't think it's very fair to throw a blanket over it all that anyone who has a problem with how we've been treated is just an ungrateful Linux user that wants everything handed to them.

[RobbieAB]

Show me one developer that has said ANYTHING as a sort. I can however show you many that say it's simply not financially feasible.
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to argue here, but...

Financial feasibility is tends to go with what the people doing to study want to see. If they are already pre-disposed not to do Linux, it will always not look feasible. If they want to do a Linux port, the numbers will look different. It's all a matter of how you phrase the questions.

@Chris: It's a farce, but... Anyone who laid down the money for a copy "on the promise of there being a Linux client" has a case for breach of contract, so should sue. If they don't, well could they kindly stop bitching about the lack of a Linux client and start bitching about the fact they don't have the balls to actually demand their legal rights. Of course, if that promise didn't exist...

In general, a low level rant is one thing (hell, a high level rant is fun done properly) but what we are seeing here mostly isn't that, it's the kind of mindless arrogance that is going to push anyone who isn't committed away.

[Chris]

@Chris: It's a farce, but... Anyone who laid down the money for a copy "on the promise of there being a Linux client" has a case for breach of contract, so should sue. If they don't, well could they kindly stop bitching about the lack of a Linux client and start bitching about the fact they don't have the balls to actually demand their legal rights. Of course, if that promise didn't exist...
I can't say I know exactly what they've said. I've only been able to gleam that they've said, in some capacity, that there would be a Linux client. The UT games aren't something I follow religiously as I much prefer single player games (or limitted multiplayer, eg. a half dozen or so friends playing together), but I will occasionally jump into something like UT2k4 for a quick game.

But even if all they said was there'd very likely be a Linux client soon after release, and then strung along users saying "not yet.. soon" for 9 months, I'd expect plenty of users to be frustrated. Especially for a largely multiplayer-only game that's useless without a player base, and seeing that player base dwindle to low numbers while you're waiting to even start. And doubly so for a company that's been so friendly toward Linux in the past (remember what I've said in other threads about happy customers being repeat customers? I'd imagine *that's* why people would have bought it on good faith alone).. I'd also imagine that if/when Epic finally does deliver a Linux UT3 client and a Linux client for following titles, everyone would look back on this as a blotch in history (Epic, assuming they really are trying to appease/appeal to Linux users, for not being able to give what they promised, and Linux users for being so negative towards Epic).

In general, a low level rant is one thing (hell, a high level rant is fun done properly) but what we are seeing here mostly isn't that, it's the kind of mindless arrogance that is going to push anyone who isn't committed away.
Perhaps, but I don't think a single, or even a select few, forums are representative of Linux users as a whole. What was that saying..? "For every disgruntled customer, there's two that are content" ..or something like that, at least. The really angry ones will be the most likely to comment.. can't let that overshadow the quietly content/optimistic people.

[D0pamine]

Stop acting as if you are ENTITLED to Linux games.!

I agree but when they say there IS going to be one .. I've never asked for a COD4 client ( would be nice though ) because one was never announced as WarTourist will link you to stated claim :-


Q: Will there be a linux or Mac version of UT3?
A: We are currently working on a linux UT3 client that players will be able to use with the retail Windows version. As soon as it's available we'll announce it here. Work is also being done on a Mac retail version of UT3.

WarTourist , what are the odds of the linux client for this game being released before christmas 2008 ?

To me too its just a bit of fun , its great fun , better than T.V. anyway ;) - i still want it though because i paid for it , yes i know it doesnt have a tux on the box but the FAQ which WarTourist freqently links to before locking a thread STILL states 'We are currently working on a linux UT3 client that players will be able to use with the retail Windows version' - but when? Is it a lost cause?. I mean by the time we get to play it will all the servers be ghost servers because 'its an old game'? - some sort of time frame please WarTourist!

[xav1r]

I agree but when they say there IS going to be one .. I've never asked for a COD4 client ( would be nice though ) because one was never announced as WarTourist will link you to stated claim :-


Q: Will there be a linux or Mac version of UT3?
A: We are currently working on a linux UT3 client that players will be able to use with the retail Windows version. As soon as it's available we'll announce it here. Work is also being done on a Mac retail version of UT3.

WarTourist , what are the odds of the linux client for this game being released before christmas 2008 ?

To me too its just a bit of fun , its great fun , better than T.V. anyway ;) - i still want it though because i paid for it , yes i know it doesnt have a tux on the box but the FAQ which WarTourist freqently links to before locking a thread STILL states 'We are currently working on a linux UT3 client that players will be able to use with the retail Windows version' - but when? Is it a lost cause?. I mean by the time we get to play it will all the servers be ghost servers because 'its an old game'? - some sort of time frame please WarTourist!

I dont think wartourist comes here anymore.

[Chris]

Anyone who laid down the money for a copy "on the promise of there being a Linux client" has a case for breach of contract, so should sue.
Besides which, suing should be a last resort. Just because there's some problems doesn't eman you need to jump to litigation. All most people seem to want is just some general time frame for release, and barring that to know what's holding it up. Hardly something to sue over. Though if the client does indeed end up being cancelled...

It wouldn't be so bad if people could just return the game for a full refund, but by this time it's kinda late (not to mention many places not accepting game returns at all anymore, anyway).

[RobbieAB]

And even more relevantly, the fact you would lose!

Caveat Emptor. You purchased a Windows game not a Linux game. It says Windows in the system requirements on the box!

[deanjo]

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to argue here, but...

Financial feasibility is tends to go with what the people doing to study want to see. If they are already pre-disposed not to do Linux, it will always not look feasible. If they want to do a Linux port, the numbers will look different. It's all a matter of how you phrase the questions.

Your saying our griping is pushing the developers away, so show me where they have said any such thing? Any game production house will suffice.

We do have on record Mark Rein saying ""We're a multi-platform company folks please come to grips with that. We like the PC. We like the 360. We like the PS3. We like the Macintosh. We like Linux. We will deliver UT3 for all of these platforms and it will rock on every one.""

There were release dates for the windows version, xbox, ps3 and windows. When those platforms were delayed they at least got a revised timeline. Something that we have yet to receive.

[Svartalf]

I dont think wartourist comes here anymore.

He did (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43351&postcount=248) as of earlier today. He even replied to a comment I'd made in that specific post. ;)

He's here, very probably listening in to all these goings on. Since he's one of the management on UT3, I have to wonder what he's making of all these goings on...it can't be reflecting well on us with some of these comments...

[Svartalf]

Your saying our griping is pushing the developers away, so show me where they have said any such thing? Any game production house will suffice.

We won't go there, deanjo. Drop it, please.

[deanjo]

BTW, don't know if this is any indicator or the typical amazon screwup but they are saying it's being released on the 29th for the Mac.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Macsoft-Unreal-Tournament-3-Mac/dp/B0016IV9FA

[xav1r]

He did (http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43351&postcount=248) as of earlier today. He even replied to a comment I'd made in that specific post. ;)

He's here, very probably listening in to all these goings on. Since he's one of the management on UT3, I have to wonder what he's making of all these goings on...it can't be reflecting well on us with some of these comments...

I bet he would love to have the kind of moderating power he has in the epic boards. :D:D:D

[Svartalf]

I bet he would love to have the kind of moderating power he has in the epic boards. :D:D:D

Now, now... Let's be mannerful over here. We're above that sort of snippy remarks (Why stoop to that level, right?). :D

[Svartalf]

BTW, don't know if this is any indicator or the typical amazon screwup but they are saying it's being released on the 29th for the Mac.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Macsoft-Unreal-Tournament-3-Mac/dp/B0016IV9FA

Guess we'll have to see. It might be when we see it for Linux. I'm not going to be so bold as to venture a guess. If there's a demo for Linux, I'll evaluate it then- otherwise, I've got other things to be spending my money on that might be more useful to myself and everyone in these discussion threads.

[gilboa]

Guess we'll have to see. It might be when we see it for Linux. I'm not going to be so bold as to venture a guess. If there's a demo for Linux, I'll evaluate it then- otherwise, I've got other things to be spending my money on that might be more useful to myself and everyone in these discussion threads.

Let me add my 2c's worth.
If the Linux client -does- come out, I will most likely jump to tuxgames and buy a "Linux" copy (Same as I did with ID games), even though it costs more (International shipping).
I will do so, not because I'm rich and/or stupid, but because I rather make a -Linux- sale instead of adding yet-another-Windows sale to the grand total.
Yes, it has a dwindling community (I'll mostly play against the AI, so I don't really care) and there will be far less mods compared to UT2K4, but personal statements are never cheap or easy. ( Unless you're an apple iSomthing user; Yes, spending money on fashion accessory does make a statement; No, it's not what you think, it's more in line with "I like overpriced shiny things wrapped in plastic that makes me feel superior for no good reason" )

As some people above said, neither ID nor Epic owe us anything - and as much as I dislike the way Epic has handled this PR fiasco (No, repeating the same empty message doesn't really help), we, as a community should consider our long term goals (E.g. More native games) before we start burning down the house.

- Gilboa

[Svartalf]

As some people above said, neither ID nor Epic owe us anything - and as much as I dislike the way Epic has handled this PR fiasco (No, repeating the same empty message doesn't really help), we, as a community should consider our long term goals (E.g. More native games) before we start burning down the house.

- Gilboa

Thank you for making that remark. :D

[WarTourist]

I have to wonder what he's making of all these goings on...it can't be reflecting well on us with some of these comments...

Judicious use of vBB's ignore feature allows me to enjoy an insult free Phoronix experience :).

[Svartalf]

Judicious use of vBB's ignore feature allows me to enjoy an insult free Phoronix experience :).

Bravo, sir! Well done indeed! :D

[D0pamine]

Judicious use of vBB's ignore feature allows me to enjoy an insult free Phoronix experience :).

Time frame ? This year ? Sir ?

Am I one of those victims of the ignore feature?

[Svartalf]

Time frame ? This year ? Sir ?

Am I one of those victims of the ignore feature?

Well, you, deanjo, and a few others have been pretty mouthy about things- and not in a very good way about it, really.

I'm not going to tell you NOT to gripe- I've been doing my fair share of it. All mostly guarded remarks. Partly because I'm not one to be throwing stones over delayed releases (heh...) and because I know I'm not at all entitled to ANYTHING.

But, you and the others in question have been acting like you're entitled to the thing. Some of them actually think that since they made public statements that there would be a Linux version that buying the WINDOWS version entitled them to something for Linux. There ARE consequences for this sort of crap- you might want to go back through the gripe threads and look at what I posted versus what many of the others posted.

WE do not amount to a pimple on their profits right at the moment, though if there's enough traction in the game space, there'll be vastly more money out of Linux users. Just NOT right now. With that in mind, would YOU expend any effort for what will actually COST them some money overall on UT3 instead of net them a meager profit? Especially with all this crap we've been heaping on Epic and him? I know I wouldn't.

This, in and of itself, is part of the reason we don't see more stuff- they look at this and see what crap Bioware got, what crap Epic is getting right now, and then come up with other reasons to not do it, if only to not have to deal with all of the quarrelous people we seem to have in the segment that comprises what they see of Linux users.

As to when we might see this... I'm guessing with him showing up again that we're looking at a couple of more weeks to a couple of more months- it may be that they're "done" and waiting for "the appropriate time" which would be on THEIR schedule, not yours or mine. And, it could be a solid year from when the Windows version. The Mac version showing up as being released in a couple of days in some online venues leads me to think maybe sooner than later- but that's just a WAG on my part. :D

[deanjo]

The Mac version showing up as being released in a couple of days in some online venues leads me to think maybe sooner than later- but that's just a WAG on my part. :D

I wouldn't put too much faith in that release date. I remember many release dates on Duke Nukem Forever on Amazon.

[xav1r]

Judicious use of vBB's ignore feature allows me to enjoy an insult free Phoronix experience :).

I guess the ignore button is the next best thing to being an arbitrary moderator, heh? :)

[Dragonlord]

The ignore feature in fact is rather bad. I can understand if you want to mute some people ( and in other forums, including those I'm staffer ) I would often like to do so but it's wrong. Why? If you black out certain posts the flow of the topic is disrupted and trying to follow a conversation with some posts missing does not only make it difficult it can also lead to misunderstandings or wrong pictures about something. It's like with law. Everyone is entitled to be heard by the law so muffling people takes away their rights, not? ;)

Anyways... I'm never using an ignore feature. I ignore posts in my head if this is required :D

[WarTourist]

If you black out certain posts the flow of the topic is disrupted and trying to follow a conversation with some posts missing does not only make it difficult it can also lead to misunderstandings or wrong pictures about something.

I agree about forums you're a mod on. But for community forums, it's been my experience that whatever someone on my ignore list is saying is being said by someone not on my ignore sans the insults.

Unfortunately there's this gene in many forum users DNA that causes them to think there's an obnoxiousness threshold they need to cross in order to be heard. I regularly read all the forums covering UT and if you're being obnoxious, you're going to be treated like an obnoxious person (i.e. ignored).

You've got the developer's ear. Now just make sure you're saying something you want us to hear :).

[Dragonlord]

Now I'm not sure if having such an ear jolted in your major direction is an honor or not. What goes for the UT3 client I think there's nothing more to say... 28 pages should speak a clear language. Not sure if you refer to my post somewhere on the last page. To make a long story short some coder at your end had the glorious idea to check drive "C:" for free space when I entered an "H:" directory to install to ( since this is where my free space is ). Results in the unholy situation of not being able to install at all. What goes for mounted directory problems I'm not going to poke you for it since a couple of fellow game developers have not yet noticed that XP ( and Vista ) learned Volume Mounting ;)

EDIT: Nearly forgot. What exactly is this "OpenAL drama"? Could not get a couple of minutes into the game before it crashed. Some forum mentioned then disabling OpenAL HW to avoid the crashes. I'm working with OpenAL too and I'm surprised how you can manage to crash a game with it. With OpenGL I can understand since I shot down my machine a couple of times with things like binding invalid VBO memory or other things happening if your coffee runs low on ammo late at night. After all OpenAL is just a wrapper around the sound system and sound cards are not yet as sophisticated as graphic cards are.

[me262]

Unfortunately there's this gene in many forum users DNA that causes them to think there's an obnoxiousness threshold they need to cross in order to be heard. I regularly read all the forums covering UT and if you're being obnoxious, you're going to be treated like an obnoxious person (i.e. ignored).
... or locked and/or deleted. ^_^
I think it stems from the fact that people want to be heard, which means some kind of acknowledgment that yes, their voice has been heard, here's a genuinely-written reply from us.
Back in my IRC days I used to ignore people, but after a while it did bring a headache of wondering where the conversation was going.
I'm appreciative of the fact that you're at least in *here* talking to us WT, it shows more credibility because it's outside of the company forums.
Maybe we could get just a percentage of completion?

I agree that if a delay like this was on a more major platform, Epic would be nailed to a crucifix, yet people would still buy it when it came out. (Case in point: Super Smash Bros. Brawl, 1 month delayed to bring a better experience. I was going nuts 3 weeks before release.) It's the same case as Blizzard, "it'll be out when we're done with it", however Blizzard has a history of doing this, and in the end they do have release dates, and beta tests (now that I think of it, why hasn't Epic done a Linux beta?).
This also makes me wonder how major this problem might be if they don't have a date set, but the opposite side of that is that they're more focused on the major audience and working on the Linux client on their downtime. There are a lot of theories, but no real solid answers because of how Epic's PR has been handled.
If not a percentage of completion, how about the pace? Meager... Taxing... Grueling... some other Oregon Trail reference...

By the way, has any thought been given to how the Linux version will be packaged? On the DVD with the Windows SKU, on a seperate Linux version SKU, or just released online?

[Svartalf]

I wouldn't put too much faith in that release date. I remember many release dates on Duke Nukem Forever on Amazon.

Heh... I **DID** say it was a WAG... >:-) :D

I don't put much faith in it either. :D

[Svartalf]

EDIT: Nearly forgot. What exactly is this "OpenAL drama"? Could not get a couple of minutes into the game before it crashed. Some forum mentioned then disabling OpenAL HW to avoid the crashes. I'm working with OpenAL too and I'm surprised how you can manage to crash a game with it. With OpenGL I can understand since I shot down my machine a couple of times with things like binding invalid VBO memory or other things happening if your coffee runs low on ammo late at night. After all OpenAL is just a wrapper around the sound system and sound cards are not yet as sophisticated as graphic cards are.

It's probably because the SI, which most people are using, isn't very good code these days. If you're on Windows, it should work decently enough. If you're working on Linux, it's got all kinds of bad things going on inside it- try to use OpenAL-Soft instead.

[Svartalf]

You've got the developer's ear. Now just make sure you're saying something you want us to hear :).

Continue listening in, ignoring the idiots like you're doing right now, for starters.

Get us UT3- we've waited entirely too long as it is. (But that's a given...right? ;))

The delay here was not a good thing. Honest. Seriously. Moreover, I have to wonder what precisely was the source delay in this. If you've done the Unreal 3 engine line you've done the previous ones, it shouldn't have taken 9+ months to get an 11th hour snag fixed for the Linux or MacOS versions- it should have been at the same time as the Windows version or only a couple of months afterwards. Moreover, you got the PS3 version out, which is closer to the other two platforms than the Windows side of things. What happened?

[Dragonlord]

It's probably because the SI, which most people are using, isn't very good code these days. If you're on Windows, it should work decently enough. If you're working on Linux, it's got all kinds of bad things going on inside it- try to use OpenAL-Soft instead.
In fact this problems exist on the Windows side of life so this is why I put forth the question. Windows support of OpenAL is better so I expect there less troubles than under Linux ( like for example clicks in streamed openal sound buffers ).

[Svartalf]

In fact this problems exist on the Windows side of life so this is why I put forth the question. Windows support of OpenAL is better so I expect there less troubles than under Linux ( like for example clicks in streamed openal sound buffers ).

Heh... That's because the Windows side of things has numerous differing versions of the DLL and no good clean-up, etc. for what's there. There's a "tool" out there that cleans up a goodly portion of the issues by clearing out all the OpenAL junk on the system and then re-installing the latest version in the main search path.

Seems that there's this mis-mash of old and new versions of the .DLL lurking about causing no end to problems, amongst other things. The clicking sound could be caused by a number of differing things, though.

[Dragonlord]

The first time I witnessed this had been with the Quake4 demo on Linux. I first though John had a bad day porting it since there you really had to mute your speakers as this stuttering cause anything from nervous twitching to bleeding ears but then I found the same troubles while writing the audio core in my engine. Talking with the devers on the OpenAL IRC channel showed that this indeed is a known issue... but without a remedy. It's some time ago but I think to remember something about troubles with the underlaying ALSA system. Whatever I could reduce the clicking to nearly inaudible by doing some tricks. Can't remember them out of the head but it's marked somewhere in the sources.

What goes for the Windows problem... that's strange since I installed the OpenAL myself without any other tool intervening. That said I did not check the directory ( it's gone so I can't look it up right now ) of the U3 installation if there is an openal dll included. This could explain some problems.

[D0pamine]

Well, you, deanjo, and a few others have been pretty mouthy about things- and not in a very good way about it, really.

I'm not going to tell you NOT to gripe- I've been doing my fair share of it. All mostly guarded remarks. Partly because I'm not one to be throwing stones over delayed releases (heh...) and because I know I'm not at all entitled to ANYTHING.

Hum sorry , kid brothers fault for believing their FAQ thread , never mind - it shall burn well and i'll treat my brother to a days go-karting to say sorry. If i appear to have been "mouthy" - which is an impossibility even with UTF-8 then i apologise to whom ever i have offended , but neither will i "kiss arse" - which is also impossible even with UTF-8. There is no getting round the fact that they said and still say there will be a linux client and yet there isn't one - just a time frame - weeks? months? years? at all? WarTourist?

But, you and the others in question have been acting like you're entitled to the thing. Some of them actually think that since they made public statements that there would be a Linux version that buying the WINDOWS version entitled them to something for Linux. There ARE consequences for this sort of crap- you might want to go back through the gripe threads and look at what I posted versus what many of the others posted.


This, in and of itself, is part of the reason we don't see more stuff- they look at this and see what crap Bioware got, what crap Epic is getting right now, and then come up with other reasons to not do it, if only to not have to deal with all of the quarrelous people we seem to have in the segment that comprises what they see of Linux users.

Dont promise what you cant/wont deliver ? If i were looking at this situation as another game development company thats what i'd be thinking.

WE do not amount to a pimple on their profits right at the moment, though if there's enough traction in the game space, there'll be vastly more money out of Linux users. Just NOT right now. With that in mind, would YOU expend any effort for what will actually COST them some money overall on UT3 instead of net them a meager profit? Especially with all this crap we've been heaping on Epic and him? I know I wouldn't.

There is a DAMN sight more profit in linux titles these days - when ut99 came out i played it on slackware - it was profitable then but its not profitable now? with 8-9 million ubuntu users alone? It has already been stated by mr. gordon that epic have never lost money making a linux client so why would they lose money now ?


As to when we might see this... I'm guessing with him showing up again that we're looking at a couple of more weeks to a couple of more months- it may be that they're "done" and waiting for "the appropriate time" which would be on THEIR schedule, not yours or mine. And, it could be a solid year from when the Windows version. The Mac version showing up as being released in a couple of days in some online venues leads me to think maybe sooner than later- but that's just a WAG on my part.

yup - ut3 for linux the best guessing game since guess who.....

[Svartalf]

There is a DAMN sight more profit in linux titles these days - when ut99 came out i played it on slackware - it was profitable then but its not profitable now? with 8-9 million ubuntu users alone? It has already been stated by mr. gordon that epic have never lost money making a linux client so why would they lose money now ?


Of those 8-9 million, how many are going to buy UT3?

If you're not talking more than five thousand or so, you need to QUIT going about thinking you're something special. We've had roughly that many or more Linux users for the last 7 or so years- it's just now that we've got better metrics and insight into the real numbers.

Why, then, did Q3:A sell only 200 units MAX? It's not because it sucked. It's not because it was "old". Hell, it was even an OFFICIAL version provided by iD FOR Linux with a LINUX SKU. Why did it not sell, D0pamine, when it should have flown off the shelf like everyone and his DOG keeps saying they'd do if a commercial title becomes available for Linux? If you can't answer that, perhaps you should temper your remarks and back off a bit on quoting figures on things.

Each studio goes and looks at what happened there and remembers the same remarks YOU make right now and then ignores you and the rest of us because it's just the same old, tired crap from that lunatic fringe that insists on using a server OS to play games on. Until you find a way to undo that impression of things, you're going to largely get NOWHERE. Doing things the way you are isn't undoing the impression, it's just reinforcing it.

[grantek]

Why, then, did Q3:A sell only 200 units MAX? It's not because it sucked. It's not because it was "old". Hell, it was even an OFFICIAL version provided by iD FOR Linux with a LINUX SKU. Why did it not sell, D0pamine, when it should have flown off the shelf like everyone and his DOG keeps saying they'd do if a commercial title becomes available for Linux? If you can't answer that, perhaps you should temper your remarks and back off a bit on quoting figures on things.
Did Q3:A phone home to check the CD-key? Either way, it had an iD metaserver, so if anyone has solid figures on who dual-boots and who just buys the Windows-branded version even if it never touches Windows, it's iD.

[me262]

Why, then, did Q3:A sell only 200 units MAX? It's not because it sucked. It's not because it was "old". Hell, it was even an OFFICIAL version provided by iD FOR Linux with a LINUX SKU. Why did it not sell, D0pamine, when it should have flown off the shelf like everyone and his DOG keeps saying they'd do if a commercial title becomes available for Linux? If you can't answer that, perhaps you should temper your remarks and back off a bit on quoting figures on things.
I think (I can't confirm at this moment) that it's because iD released the client online. It had a separate SKU, but it was a rare find in the stores (like I said, I came across it only once in a shop in Florida). This was back when Linux was not as user-friendly as it is today, and not as featured. A lot of people went and bought the Windows copy and downloaded the Linux installer from iD.
Come to think of it, this does make sense. If iD could provide us some sales data I think we would find that sales DID increase when the Linux client came out.

EDIT: I did try looking, and didn't find anything. I did, however, find an interesting logo on Activision's support page: http://activision.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/activision.cfg/php/enduser/home.php?p_sid=YvFzuWbj

[Chris]

Why, then, did Q3:A sell only 200 units MAX? It's not because it sucked. It's not because it was "old". Hell, it was even an OFFICIAL version provided by iD FOR Linux with a LINUX SKU.
You can't rely on Linux publisher game sales when you can get Linux binaries and use them with the "normal" CD. id Software would (should) realize this, as should any developer that provides Linux binaries for free download (hell, with Neverwinter Nights you can download the entire Linux game, client and game data sans videos, for free from Bioware's site; you just need to buy the game to get a CD key).

How many downloads of the Linux client were there? What was the seeding like for the torrent? Note that I don't know what the Linux client situation was like for Q3:A as, again, I don't typically follow multiplayer-only deahtmatch-type games (and I don't think I had a computer capable of running it, nor had switched full-time to Linux, at that point).

But in either case, Q3:A *was* up against stiff competition at release and over the following years. Even in Windows, many people say that Q3 was inferior to its competitor...<dramatic pause> Unreal Tournament.

[me262]

I'm sure when asked in 2000, iD went "what's a torrent?"
That was dial-up days for me!

By releasing the client online, the Linux numbers were skewed in favor of the Windows SKU, because it was the easiest to find.
Those 200 probably went "ooh look! shiny tin box with a linux client!" and bought it.

[gilboa]

I'm sure when asked in 2000, iD went "what's a torrent?"
That was dial-up days for me!

By releasing the client online, the Linux numbers were skewed in favor of the Windows SKU, because it was the easiest to find.
Those 200 probably went "ooh look! shiny tin box with a linux client!" and bought it.

I can confirm the above.
I know at least 4 different Linux users (self included) that bought the Windows version simply because we couldn't find the Linux version anywhere.

Mind you, I/we didn't know about tuxgames and friends back then.

Never the less, Svartalf is correct, as it stand studios have very little reason to port Windows games to Linux - let alone releasing them on day one.

- Gilboa

[D0pamine]

Of those 8-9 million, how many are going to buy UT3?

If you're not talking more than five thousand or so, you need to QUIT going about thinking you're something special. We've had roughly that many or more Linux users for the last 7 or so years- it's just now that we've got better metrics and insight into the real numbers.

Why, then, did Q3:A sell only 200 units MAX? It's not because it sucked. It's not because it was "old". Hell, it was even an OFFICIAL version provided by iD FOR Linux with a LINUX SKU. Why did it not sell, D0pamine, when it should have flown off the shelf like everyone and his DOG keeps saying they'd do if a commercial title becomes available for Linux? If you can't answer that, perhaps you should temper your remarks and back off a bit on quoting figures on things.

Each studio goes and looks at what happened there and remembers the same remarks YOU make right now and then ignores you and the rest of us because it's just the same old, tired crap from that lunatic fringe that insists on using a server OS to play games on. Until you find a way to undo that impression of things, you're going to largely get NOWHERE. Doing things the way you are isn't undoing the impression, it's just reinforcing it.

How many people bought unreal tournamnt because it had i linux client ? , how many people bought ut2k3 because it had a linux client ? , how many people bought ut2k4 because it had a linux client ? , you are really suggesting there are less linux users now than in ut2004 ? , epic have never found making a linux client unprofitable so why would they now?
I'm flattered that you think my comments are being taken onboard by the entire games industry but i seriously doubt they are. I am sorry for "ruining it for everyone" with my "non-arse-kissing" UTF-8 tone. I shall go back to my "lunatic fringe OS" and be greatful for having a $50 game that will not work - for i am the lunatic fringe and i do not deserve such things. If you think my remarks are somewhat "mouthy" or however you like to put it , come meet me in person then "rip me off" , you'll see mouth , teeth , fists , elbows , feet and so on , yes i do feel somewhat ripped off by epic games and yes i will bloody well say what i think about them which in the past was nothing but praise. Note there is no thread in these or any other forums titled "X months and still no COD4 linux client" because nobody said there would be one , lots of people bought this game ( lots of people i know pre-ordered it ) because it WAS stated and STILL is stated that there WILL be a linux and mac client . you simply saying these people shouldnt have bought it because it didnt have a penguin on the box ? ETQW doesnt have a penguin on the box , nor does it have a linux installer on the dvd , but i bought it because i trust id when they say "it wont be long" and sure enough it took less than 4 weeks for the linux client to become available. Should the people who bought ut3 to play on GNU/Linux slap themselves or should they slap epic games.. either way they have a useless game which may aswell be burned on youtube or destroyed in an unusual manner at least :P

[Svartalf]

I shall go back to my "lunatic fringe OS" and be greatful for having a $50 game that will not work

Did it have an available client at the time you bought it or did it have a penguin on the box? No? That $50 game that will not work will work FINE on the OS that the box claims to run on. You did that to yourself. You will get no sympathy from me or probably anyone else that uses the brain that God gave them to think for a moment about that little distinction. You bitch because they promised and didn't deliver. Here's a hint: Promises aren't agreements. Promises aren't contracts. Things CAN change.

If you buy something under the conditions you bought your copy of UT3 you've only yourself to blame. Making an ASS of yourself on an internet forum like this one and like you're doing is NOT going to get them to make it happen ANY faster or prevent repeats. But suit yourself- it's dead clear you've made your mind up and won't listen to facts or reason on this one. I'm not telling you to be grateful- but being a jerk isn't going to fix the problem nor is it going to regain the $50 you spent on a Windows title that does not yet have a Linux client, bought solely on the basis that they said in an interview and on the website that there was going to be a Linux version. Hell, there's not even a MacOS version- and they don't get snubbed nearly as much as we do these days. Ever given a moment's thought about that one? Probably not.

[Svartalf]

I can confirm the above.
I know at least 4 different Linux users (self included) that bought the Windows version simply because we couldn't find the Linux version anywhere.

Mind you, I/we didn't know about tuxgames and friends back then.

Never the less, Svartalf is correct, as it stand studios have very little reason to port Windows games to Linux - let alone releasing them on day one.

- Gilboa

And, I can count myself as one of the 200 that actually sold.

I went out of my way to FIND a Linux client, thank you very much.

Download counts aren't the same thing as sales figures, unfortunately- because you could be re-downloading, etc. Usage counts help some with things like Quake4, UT2k3, etc.- they've got better numbers these days, but unfortunately, they're not seeing something that rates bothering with us... John Carmack's not going out of his way to make a version for Linux. You should ask yourselves why...and it's not Microsoft's meddling.

It's because of low numbers (compared to the Windows and apparently even the MacOS crowd...) and quarrelous people like D0pamine who seem to think they're somehow entitled because they bought the Windows copy on the promise of a Linux client on or near ship time of the Windows client. Stuff like that. We're a money losing proposition right at the moment for anyone other than the Indies. Somehow that's got to change if you're going to get the sort of stuff from iD and Epic that you've been used to.

[Svartalf]

You can't rely on Linux publisher game sales when you can get Linux binaries and use them with the "normal" CD. id Software would (should) realize this, as should any developer that provides Linux binaries for free download (hell, with Neverwinter Nights you can download the entire Linux game, client and game data sans videos, for free from Bioware's site; you just need to buy the game to get a CD key).


Tell that to the studios. Unfortunately, they don't use the same logical line of thinking you or I would. They look at that and the sales of other titles being sub 2k units and decide we're not worth messing with. I kid you not.

[D0pamine]

ASS....jerk.

good to see LGPs P.R. is up to scratch...sticks and stones my friend

We all have our opinions , somewhere in the middle of those is the truth , you may well think i'm an ASS and a jerk but that is your opinion sir. I may have formed opinions about your good self but i will keep them to myself as children may be reading....

EDIT: http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=621244 - looks like i am not the only jerk who acts like an ASS ... or am i an ASS that acts like a jerk.....

[Svartalf]

good to see LGPs P.R. is up to scratch...sticks and stones my friend


When I'm posting unless it's stated as an official item, it's MY and only MY opinions- much like your own.


We all have our opinions , somewhere in the middle of those is the truth , you may well think i'm an ASS and a jerk but that is your opinion sir. I may have formed opinions about your good self but i will keep them to myself as children may be reading....


Heh... Sounds like you might be getting the hang of being diplomatic.

You can have those opinions of me- no skin off my nose, really. You ought to be that same sort of diplomatic with other things, though. Just because you paid money for a Windows title does not entitle you to not be diplomatic. If they'd put Tux on the box, or said "supports Linux" or similar, and then did this delay like this, you'd have me not trying to hold
you back at the minimum. Keep that in mind. :D



Right now, you're getting this called out on because you kept being obnoxious past the point that it was obvious that you're not getting anywhere with it and then when someone (me) pointed it out to you that it was counterproductive, you took to tilting at me, trying to justify your position. Your position, sir, is weak by any other standards. In the Windows world, had you bought a MacOS only title, expecting it to be for Windows because they said they might make it for it and then acting this way, you'd be called a "lamer" (note: I'm not calling you anything of the sort...you're pissed, you've a right to be. But...) and blown off. Being obnoxious like this might work to some extent in meatspace, but in the end, it's not terribly productive if you're doing it all the time- and it's not overly productive in the manner for which you're doing it. Especially for something that you knew or were supposed to have known wasn't for Linux. You wouldn't even prevail in a breach of contract suit over the $50 purchase of the game- because the box was CLEARLY labeled.

Be pissed. You should be. I know I am- I wanted to play it myself. Be better about expressing it. :D




EDIT: http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=621244 - looks like i am not the only jerk who acts like an ASS ... or am i an ASS that acts like a jerk.....

No kidding. Problem is, that one's not making things better any more than you are. Just because a couple do that doesn't make it right or something you should consider doing.