Linus Torvalds Comments On Bcachefs Prospects For Linux 6.6

[phoronix]

Phoronix: Linus Torvalds Comments On Bcachefs Prospects For Linux 6.6

A few days ago Bcachefs was proposed for inclusion to Linux 6.6 after it failed to be pulled for the prior Linux 6.5 kernel cycle. Since then we've been waiting to see what action Linus Torvalds would take with including Bcachefs... He's finally commented on it today but remains to be seen if it will land for this kernel release...

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linus-Comments-Bcachefs-6.6

[timofonic]

What do you people think about this?

Would Kent attitude be more tamed to be suffice? Will he be able to change that in his personal behavior? Linus achieved it.

What about not submitting it to linux-next before?

What about that compile error?

Is Bcachefs doomed after this?

[Barley9432]

What do you people think about this?

Would Kent attitude be more tamed to be suffice? Will he be able to change that in his personal behavior? Linus achieved it.

What about not submitting it to linux-next before?

What about that compile error?

Is Bcachefs doomed after this?

It'll very likely be merged eventually. Kent's attitude is for the most part fine, I'm not sure why some people treat him the way they do. If you read through the mailing list he is very much open to feedback, whenever someone actually questions and provides specific details on doubts on technical details, he seems very much open to change. Whenever things get heated is when someone refuses to provide specific details on what they don't like about bcachefs.

This thread comes to mind: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/2023081...oria.home.lan/

One of the main maintainers has concerns, doesn't state what his concerns are and Kent even setup two meetings for him to discuss them and the maintainer in question didn't even show up for either of them.

[andrei_me]

Is Bcachefs doomed after this?

Only if the maintainer suffers from burnout or something that makes him lose his motivation to upstream it.

Doesn't seem to be the case this time

[fitzie]

What do you people think about this?

Would Kent attitude be more tamed to be suffice? Will he be able to change that in his personal behavior? Linus achieved it.

What about not submitting it to linux-next before?

What about that compile error?

Is Bcachefs doomed after this?

Kent has just gotten rude. He didn't want to upstream for years, and now that he wants to, he considers everyone hostile to him for asking him pretty basic things. This time Kent has once again trying to go around other maintainers, hoping Linus will override them. He continues to insult the efforts to improve common code, and yet somehow wants to influence the direction it takes. I think Linus is looking for some technical reason to punt on this that Kent will accept, but he will not learn the lesson . I have no doubt that there are many x86'isms inside bcachefs that will have to get fixed, but I don't think this is as serious as linus makes it sound. However good bcachefs turns out to be, Kent has turned bcachefs into some sort of embattled effort, when there's no need for that at all.

He's busy burning all the good will because he cannot wait three months? Really amazing. He're the thread from the last (6.5) release cycle he got this earnest feedback from the VFS maintainer:

On the receiving end this feels disrespectful. To other maintainers this
implies you only accept Linus verdict and expect him to ignore
objections of other maintainers and pull it all in. That would've caused
massive amounts of frustration and conflict should that have happened.
So this whole pull request had massive potential to divide the
community. And in the end you were told the same requirements that we
did have and then you accepted it but that cannot be the only barrier
that you accept.

To which Kent responds:

Well, it is his kernel

And more than that, I find Linus genuinely more pleasant to deal with; I
always feel like I'm talking to someone who's just trying to have an
intelligent conversation and doesn't want to waste time on bullshit.

...

I don't want to make your life more difficult, but you seem to want to
make _mine_ more difficult.

Of course he choose to do it again. Seemingly without any offline discussions. I think it's a sign that the VFS maintainer (Christian Brauner) who has been active this cycle hasn't said a word on this yet.

[fitzie]

It'll very likely be merged eventually. Kent's attitude is for the most part fine, I'm not sure why some people treat him the way they do. If you read through the mailing list he is very much open to feedback, whenever someone actually questions and provides specific details on doubts on technical details, he seems very much open to change. Whenever things get heated is when someone refuses to provide specific details on what they don't like about bcachefs.

This thread comes to mind: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/2023081...oria.home.lan/

One of the main maintainers has concerns, doesn't state what his concerns are and Kent even setup two meetings for him to discuss them and the maintainer in question didn't even show up for either of them.

How about this: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/2023080...oria.home.lan/

Waiman, if you think you can add all the features of six locks to rwsem,
knock yourself out - but right now this is a vaporware idea for you, not
something I can seriously entertain. I'm looking to merge bcachefs next
cycle, not sit around and bikeshed for the next six months.

How about him attacking iomap as a pet project that ignored his input, or insulting everyone over that stresstest/io_uring bug.

The issue isn't that Kent is not "most part fine" it's that when he's called out for when he's not fine, he becomes defensive and says his attitude is warranted. Why should anyone show up to a discussion with Kent where he's clearly got this massive chip on his shoulder and uses every opportunity to let people know.

[nadir]

How about this: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/2023080...oria.home.lan/



How about him attacking iomap as a pet project that ignored his input, or insulting everyone over that stresstest/io_uring bug.

The issue isn't that Kent is not "most part fine" it's that when he's called out for when he's not fine, he becomes defensive and says his attitude is warranted. Why should anyone show up to a discussion with Kent where he's clearly got this massive chip on his shoulder and uses every opportunity to let people know.

Man, things are looking really bad. I get having strong feelings about a project one has invested so much time into, but how can you miss so many basic requirements like letting it mature in linux_next?

It's a pity, I really thought that he might have learned that getting things done is about merging people as much as it is about merging code. He's basically applying to be made part of a group and doesn't get that they will be just fine without him if he isn't showing basic kindness.

[zagtastic]

so_you're_saying_there's_a_chance.gif

yes, i registered just to post that.

[cmsigler]

I really have no standing to argue in favor of bcachefs. I'm just an end-user, no kernel developer, and am happy if I can get a small Python project to work right. That being said....

I have read opinions of Kent's work and especially interactions with the developer community. Some say he's rude and impatient. Others say he's even-tempered and responsive, as well as being a smart developer, until he's abused by another's poor behavior. But I don't read the LKML, so what do I know *shrug*

But ever since I first heard about this FS project I was intrigued. For someone like me who uses ext4 and isn't interested in BTRFS on my own laptops and workstation, this sounds very promising. And I truly hope it bears fruit several kernel cycles down the line Maybe if there are peacemakers who will lend a hand?

[Errinwright]

It'll very likely be merged eventually. Kent's attitude is for the most part fine, I'm not sure why some people treat him the way they do. If you read through the mailing list he is very much open to feedback, whenever someone actually questions and provides specific details on doubts on technical details, he seems very much open to change. Whenever things get heated is when someone refuses to provide specific details on what they don't like about bcachefs.

This thread comes to mind: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/2023081...oria.home.lan/

One of the main maintainers has concerns, doesn't state what his concerns are and Kent even setup two meetings for him to discuss them and the maintainer in question didn't even show up for either of them.

This is exactly my takeaway from a thorough readthrough of the thread. The maintainers are either extremely bogged down, burnt out, or chose to single Kent out. For what it is worth Kent seems eager to accomodate feedback and work with them.