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Thread: Gentoo Linux 2008.0

  1. #61
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    Finally, it's not like the installer is actually supposed to work. If you need an installer, don't use gentoo. Gentoo is to be installed manually, period. The installer is broken and it should be.
    Yes the Gentoo installer has always been seriously broken.

    The reason is that many infiltrators at the top of the Gentoo heap, do NOT want Gentoo to become popular.

    They wish it to remain an obscure, hard to use, distribution,.. that frankly, no one will use.

    This sabotage of Linux is absolutely everywhere. The excuses for it differ from one instance to another, but the sabotage is clearly everywhere.

  2. #62
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    The problem with the installer is not so much that it's unstable, but that providing a GUI installation routine removes what used to be a VERY efficient filter to new users. If you are going to use Gentoo, you MUST be comfortable with a command line. You MUST be able to read instructions, understand them, and adapt them. The manual installation process will inevitably discourage people who fail on either or both of the above. A GUI installer removes that filter, meaning you get more people using Gentoo who really would be better served with a different distro, not because the other distro is easier, but because the other distro is better suited to their needs and desires.

    Now, is this elitist? Possibly, but I don't think so, at least not inherently. Different people have different needs, and different levels of ability. There is no "One size fits all" solution. To try and impose such a solution is even more arrogant and offensive than saying that some people will fail. I can't play football as well as Christiano Ronaldo, so Manchester United are being elitist for not signing me? I can't use a command line, so Gentoo are being elitist for suggesting I use a distro that can be managed through a GUI? Funny how only the second is elitist!

    As someone who has spent time in #gentoo trying to help new people on IRC, I take serious offence with being accused of elitism. I, and several other people, have spent hours trying to explain how gentoo works, how to install it to people. In many cases, a huge number of installation problems are solved by telling people to stop using the GUI installer, and just let us talk them through a manual install. And you know what? Those who can do that succeed, and are normally very happy with the result. Those who can't? Realistically, they should not be using Gentoo.

    Now that is not to say that Gentoo does not have elitist users, it does. But that is simply a result of being a quite technical distro. Just like it also has more than it's share of "performance" nutters who "tune" their system into instability. To get a fair view of the environment in Gentoo, you need to spend a little time experiencing it. I do not think you will find many people who have been in the Gentoo community for long who would say that it is elitist, or unwelcoming to new people. Just that it expects certain things of users, like an ability to use a command line, and to think.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieAB View Post
    The problem with the installer is not so much that it's unstable, but that providing a GUI installation routine removes what used to be a VERY efficient filter to new users. If you are going to use Gentoo, you MUST be comfortable with a command line. You MUST be able to read instructions, understand them, and adapt them. The manual installation process will inevitably discourage people who fail on either or both of the above. A GUI installer removes that filter, meaning you get more people using Gentoo who really would be better served with a different distro, not because the other distro is easier, but because the other distro is better suited to their needs and desires.

    Now, is this elitist? Possibly, but I don't think so, at least not inherently. Different people have different needs, and different levels of ability. There is no "One size fits all" solution. To try and impose such a solution is even more arrogant and offensive than saying that some people will fail. I can't play football as well as Christiano Ronaldo, so Manchester United are being elitist for not signing me? I can't use a command line, so Gentoo are being elitist for suggesting I use a distro that can be managed through a GUI? Funny how only the second is elitist!

    As someone who has spent time in #gentoo trying to help new people on IRC, I take serious offence with being accused of elitism. I, and several other people, have spent hours trying to explain how gentoo works, how to install it to people. In many cases, a huge number of installation problems are solved by telling people to stop using the GUI installer, and just let us talk them through a manual install. And you know what? Those who can do that succeed, and are normally very happy with the result. Those who can't? Realistically, they should not be using Gentoo.

    Now that is not to say that Gentoo does not have elitist users, it does. But that is simply a result of being a quite technical distro. Just like it also has more than it's share of "performance" nutters who "tune" their system into instability. To get a fair view of the environment in Gentoo, you need to spend a little time experiencing it. I do not think you will find many people who have been in the Gentoo community for long who would say that it is elitist, or unwelcoming to new people. Just that it expects certain things of users, like an ability to use a command line, and to think.
    I agree, and no what you said did not sound elitist. And I have to disagree with what Jade said, Gentoo is "popular" Its got to be in the top 10 out of hundreds of distributions out there in terms of popularity. When you put too many safe guards and automagic configuration into a distribution, although every distribution needs this to some degree, it tends to effect the stability of the system.

    Not saying Ubuntu for example isn't stable but making things too easy can backfire, I mean look what happened with bulletproofX and Ubuntu 8.04. That thing caused more headaches than success, although some people had no problems with it, others did. I understand the purpose of making things easy, but making things TOO easy the average user won't ever learn anything about how to fix a problem or anything, they'll just expect everything to be handed to them. I would love to see today's average users handle themselves in the early to mid 90's in computing, they wouldn't believe it.

    I don't know, its all messed up, I don't even worry about it. And I hope I didn't sound elitist myself, but I mean this is just the truth of the matter. And alot of these people should just be thankful for what they actually have and are getting, which is freedom.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malikith View Post
    When you put too many safe guards and automagic configuration into a distribution, although every distribution needs this to some degree, it tends to effect the stability of the system.
    .
    I'm sorry but this is FUD. An inexperienced user probably has more of a chance creating a unstable system in a environment where they have to configure everything themselves. For all the hundreds of configs and settings that there are , instead of having well researched and tried and tested configs and settings that alternatives offer the system is completely at the mercy of persons personal knowledge. An experienced user will be able to just as easily fix any short comings that there are in a prepackaged solution as they could in gentoo and the chances are lower that they will miss something that causes system instability and security.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malikith View Post
    Not saying Ubuntu for example isn't stable but making things too easy can backfire, I mean look what happened with bulletproofX and Ubuntu 8.04. That thing caused more headaches than success, although some people had no problems with it, others did. I understand the purpose of making things easy, but making things TOO easy the average user won't ever learn anything about how to fix a problem or anything, they'll just expect everything to be handed to them. I would love to see today's average users handle themselves in the early to mid 90's in computing, they wouldn't believe it.
    Actually, I feel that their is a place for "TOO easy" distro. Can you give me a detail explanation of the physics and engineering of your car? Does it matter if you can? For many users, the computer is just another tool, and the "TOO easy" distro is the correct distro for these people.

    Putting this another way, I did contract IT support for a while. One client told me he didn't know how his computers worked, he didn't care. That was what he was paying my employers for! For him, the "TOO easy" distro would be the correct choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malikith View Post
    I don't know, its all messed up, I don't even worry about it. And I hope I didn't sound elitist myself, but I mean this is just the truth of the matter. And alot of these people should just be thankful for what they actually have and are getting, which is freedom.
    Freedom is over-rated. Users should be allowed the choice of giving up that freedom. They must also accept the consequences of choosing that freedom, should they do so. To risk paraphrasing several judges badly, "People need to accept the consequences of their actions". If you choose Gentoo, you are choosing a technical distro that expects you to learn. If you want a blackbox that just works, pay your geek friend to install Ubuntu (or equivalent). Understand your choice, and life with it!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanjo View Post
    I'm sorry but this is FUD. An inexperienced user probably has more of a chance creating a unstable system in a environment where they have to configure everything themselves. For all the hundreds of configs and settings that there are , instead of having well researched and tried and tested configs and settings that alternatives offer the system is completely at the mercy of persons personal knowledge. An experienced user will be able to just as easily fix any short comings that there are in a prepackaged solution as they could in gentoo and the chances are lower that they will miss something that causes system instability and security.
    He says TOO MANY. Some, indeed a lot, is good. But automagic systems get things wrong, and if they system is entirely automagiced, with no space for manual correction, you are screwed.

    I can honestly say that a lot of "experienced" gentoo users would struggle to fix many problems in a Fedora system, because the Fedora system is quite capable of clobbering the fixes with one of it's automagic tools, or because Fedora simply has a different set-up. Yet these same people can set-up a well-tuned, stable, Gentoo system that meets their needs.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieAB View Post
    He says TOO MANY. Some, indeed a lot, is good. But automagic systems get things wrong, and if they system is entirely automagiced, with no space for manual correction, you are screwed.

    I can honestly say that a lot of "experienced" gentoo users would struggle to fix many problems in a Fedora system, because the Fedora system is quite capable of clobbering the fixes with one of it's automagic tools, or because Fedora simply has a different set-up. Yet these same people can set-up a well-tuned, stable, Gentoo system that meets their needs.

    As in ANY distro, manual configuration can be done and wizards disabled if needed. People can set up a well tuned stable system with a "distro-in-a-can" just as easily.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanjo View Post
    I'm sorry but this is FUD. An inexperienced user probably has more of a chance creating a unstable system in a environment where they have to configure everything themselves. For all the hundreds of configs and settings that there are , instead of having well researched and tried and tested configs and settings that alternatives offer the system is completely at the mercy of persons personal knowledge. An experienced user will be able to just as easily fix any short comings that there are in a prepackaged solution as they could in gentoo and the chances are lower that they will miss something that causes system instability and security.
    No its not, lets go beyond BulletproofX for a second and look at compiz I call this, situation A: Say you're new to Linux want to pop in an Ubuntu cd. It gets installed, you're on the desktop, and you see something about installing a proprietary driver so you can have 3d acceleration pop up. You say, okay, lets do just that. The user happens to be running a ATI card, its time to reboot, user reboots.

    Now here comes the part where he enters his user name and password, he does. he enters the desktop. Notices there are now fading windows, he says cool, I'm gonna go browse now! The user happens to be running a x1300 and is running a resolution of 1280x1024 and notices firefox is unusually slow now when he scrolls, the user is frustrated. So he exits out and decides to try playing that game that hes been wanting to try out from the add and remove programs.

    He notices the game is very slow, he knows his card is not that slow. What could be the problem he wonders, is it just Linux is slow? No, its because Compiz is enabled by default without even letting the new user know its going to be enabled and what effects could come of it! All he was told is that in order to have 3d acceleration he had to install the proprietary driver. So now he has to go into his Gnome appearance settings and disable Compiz and now things are fine.

    Not enough ammo? Alright, situation B then, a problem that I actually had: I got the Ubuntu desktop up and running, I have installed the proprietary nVidia driver for my 7900GT. Now, I know going into Linux with a 7900GT is gonna be a cakewalk and I shouldn't have hardly if any problems at all. Compiz works just fine, everything is snappy, great.

    So its time to load up UT 2004, one of my favorite games on Linux, I get in and notice theres some black corruption going on and I'm thinking.. What is going on here? A new user would be completely discouraged right here, but I look and see that I'm running a outdated driver (169.xx) why Ubuntu is giving me this outdated driver is way beyond me, so I go and install the latest driver at the time (173.14.05). Of course this manual method would have a newer user puzzled without some research and knowledge that he has to disable X before he can do anything. But nevermind all that. Magically, UT 2004 works like a dream now.

    I'm almost done with my rant, but my whole point of this is that, these issues out of the box in Ubuntu would not had happened on a different distribution mainly because of all the toppings and automagic configuration. Gentoo I would just emerge all the latest software at the time and drivers and go forth, with Debian, it would be very similar just a much easier and quicker fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by deanjo View Post
    As in ANY distro, manual configuration can be done and wizards disabled if needed. People can set up a well tuned stable system with a "distro-in-a-can" just as easily.
    Yes, but most of the time, you just go with what it gives you. I mean I'm not gonna take Ubuntu after I load it up and start dissecting it and disarming land mines before I walk over them. Thats just not realistic I would just run a different distribution. (That and I would need future knowledge of the issues I'm going to run into before I run into them and I'm no oracle and I don't think anyone else is either)

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieAB View Post
    Actually, I feel that their is a place for "TOO easy" distro. Can you give me a detail explanation of the physics and engineering of your car? Does it matter if you can? For many users, the computer is just another tool, and the "TOO easy" distro is the correct distro for these people.
    I never said there isn't a place for very easy distributions, I was saying that there are things put into some easy to use distributions that are designed to make things easier that end up in the end making things harder than they should be. Thats my whole point here I'm not saying we should all run command line and burn the X and all automatic configuration. Because there are things that without automatic configuration, that would be very very discouraging in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieAB View Post
    Freedom is over-rated. Users should be allowed the choice of giving up that freedom.
    Yeah, they already have made their choice, they're running Windows. Hehe. Kidding aside, I agree with you and I think I was a bit misunderstood on what I said originally, maybe I worded it wrong, I really don't know. But my point is no one chooses to have problems, they just happen. Sometimes user error obviously, but other times, its a actual problem.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanjo View Post
    As in ANY distro, manual configuration can be done and wizards disabled if needed. People can set up a well tuned stable system with a "distro-in-a-can" just as easily.
    The question is not CAN you diverge from the automagic, but how hard it to TO diverge.

    I have heard many people comment about how hard it is to use binary drivers in Ubuntu where they are not taken from the "supported" list. Equally, I personally have watched RPM based distros roll over and die once you start removing packages which are no longer needed. For the average user these are not really concerns. For these people Ubuntu or Fedora is the appropriate solution.

    But for users who want to tweak, who want to change things and break things, Gentoo is a better bet. Automagic systems are a lot harder to work with when you start removing some of the automagic, because they are designed to be automagic. Systems designed to be managed through wizards will have a very different structure to systems designed to be managed manually.

    For a very simple demonstration of this, consider gconf, or any large XML based configuration system. Try managing such a system manually and it's painful. For a really extreme demonstration of automagic, consider the windows registry. It's in binary, which is a very sensible solution if you assume it will be managed through wizards, and GUIs, and automagic tools. Now, if you had to manage a system manually, which would you prefer: plain text, complex XML, or binary?

    Gentoo sits squarely in the plain text category (though it is slowly moving to xml). Too much automagic and wizards and you see complex XML being prefered.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malikith View Post
    No its not, lets go beyond BulletproofX for a second and look at compiz I call this, situation A: Say you're new to Linux want to pop in an Ubuntu cd. It gets installed, you're on the desktop, and you see something about installing a proprietary driver so you can have 3d acceleration pop up. You say, okay, lets do just that. The user happens to be running a ATI card, its time to reboot, user reboots.

    Now here comes the part where he enters his user name and password, he does. he enters the desktop. Notices there are now fading windows, he says cool, I'm gonna go browse now! The user happens to be running a x1300 and is running a resolution of 1280x1024 and notices firefox is unusually slow now when he scrolls, the user is frustrated. So he exits out and decides to try playing that game that hes been wanting to try out from the add and remove programs.

    He notices the game is very slow, he knows his card is not that slow. What could be the problem he wonders, is it just Linux is slow? No, its because Compiz is enabled by default without even letting the new user know its going to be enabled and what effects could come of it! All he was told is that in order to have 3d acceleration he had to install the proprietary driver. So now he has to go into his Gnome appearance settings and disable Compiz and now things are fine.

    Not enough ammo? Alright, situation B then, a problem that I actually had: I got the Ubuntu desktop up and running, I have installed the proprietary nVidia driver for my 7900GT. Now, I know going into Linux with a 7900GT is gonna be a cakewalk and I shouldn't have hardly if any problems at all. Compiz works just fine, everything is snappy, great.

    So its time to load up UT 2004, one of my favorite games on Linux, I get in and notice theres some black corruption going on and I'm thinking.. What is going on here? A new user would be completely discouraged right here, but I look and see that I'm running a outdated driver (169.xx) why Ubuntu is giving me this outdated driver is way beyond me, so I go and install the latest driver at the time (173.14.05). Of course this manual method would have a newer user puzzled without some research and knowledge that he has to disable X before he can do anything. But nevermind all that. Magically, UT 2004 works like a dream now.
    There is no way you can convince me that disabling compiz is harder then installing and configuring Gentoo. Rightclick on applet and disable. Done.

    As far as the driver goes yes Ubuntu could be more current with it's driver but many other "in a can" distro's DO keep the driver updated to the current version, which is usually provided in some applet that says "hey dude there is an update to do, click to install"

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