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Thread: X Devs Drop NVIDIA Auto-Config Support

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by StringCheesian View Post
    So why not just make it configurable? Let each distro/user decide for themselves.
    Because the argument was about which driver to prefer when there was no configuration? If the user has told X which driver to use it will use that one, but when they haven't there will need to be a default.

    I'd say that regardless of any open-source versus binary-blob arguments, a driver shipped with X itself should have a higher priority than one that isn't. So similarly, I would expect the "nv" driver to be preferred over the "nouveau" driver, until Nouveau is shipped with X.

  2. #12
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    nvidia has made a lot of workarounds around xorg-server to have their drivers work the way nvidia wants. that was just one of them.

    i think it's only natural that xorg team considered nvidia's behavior a bit too invasive, and perhaps dangerous for people running unstable X snapshots. still there could be more reasonable solution to the problem, but unfortunately nothing good comes to mind.


    I mean hey you can always run RadeonHD without issues can't you?
    haven't tried radeonhd, but xf86-video-ati works like a charm for me, thank you. i tried fglrx yesterday and my pc totally locks up after 2 minutes of watching video (regardless of resolution/codec/format/player).

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by doclivingston View Post
    Because the argument was about which driver to prefer when there was no configuration? If the user has told X which driver to use it will use that one, but when they haven't there will need to be a default.
    Right, and I'm saying make the default configurable so that each distro can be different. Maybe Sabayon might prefer nvidia in the absence of xorg.conf, while Debian might prefer nv in the absence of xorg.conf. Like that.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by doclivingston View Post
    I'd say that regardless of any open-source versus binary-blob arguments, a driver shipped with X itself should have a higher priority than one that isn't. So similarly, I would expect the "nv" driver to be preferred over the "nouveau" driver, until Nouveau is shipped with X.
    100% Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by StringCheesian
    Right, and I'm saying make the default configurable so that each distro can be different. Maybe Sabayon might prefer nvidia in the absence of xorg.conf, while Debian might prefer nv in the absence of xorg.conf. Like that.
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    The default is already configurable: After all Xorg is FOSS and thus every distro is free to apply nVidias patch if they want to. That's the better way to do it anyway, since Git users probably don't want to use nvidia because of the ABI changes (as was mentioned in the mailinglist-discussion).
    Last edited by Zhick; 07-21-2008 at 04:54 AM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hubick View Post
    I'm behind the X devs on this one. It seems they agree with the attitude of the Kernel developers and the community at large. If you value convenience over Freedom, use Windows or Mac OS X.
    I value convenience over Freedom and that is why i use Linux (Ubuntu to be precise). So i don't see much sense in what you've wrote.

    Also, actions like that keep Linux behind Windows. How can new users think of it as a user friendly OS if it chooses not only the completely unreasonable path of doing things (if I've installed the damn nvidia driver that means i want to use it - end of story, it's just logical thinking) but it acts simply against the user making it harder to do the basic things of today's world.

    Quote Originally Posted by hubick View Post
    On the other hand, if you value Freedom and control over your own computer, use GNU/Linux.
    Control over my computer? If we all believed in that the only Linux distro in use would be Slackware (or we'd be using LFS). I want my computer to work, I'm through with looking at an OS as a kind of toy that i sit and mess around with, because someone thought it'd be nice to use the FOSS driver instead the one I've installed and now i need to get under the hood. I have work to do and thus, when I have to make a new installation of Linux, I want it to be done fast and OOTB as much as possible.

    Besides, it's not downloading and installing the driver against my will, it'll just use it because I've installed it. It's logical. And it's NOT taking away my freedom because I've already chosen to use the driver by installing it - now X would just make it easier for me to do so. What the X devs do however IS taking away my freedom of choice. It's like saying "we want you to use NV and thus you must do it. IF you want to do otherwise you have to go the harder path and mess with some options". Next time they'll shoot me in the head for "working against the great Free Software".

    Quote Originally Posted by hubick View Post
    If you are willing to sacrifice your Freedom and accept distro's shipping binary drivers enabled by default, then you don't even deserve the privilege of being a GNU/Linux user.
    Oh yeah, that's what i love the most. That's exactly the kind of talk that makes people confuse OpenSource with communism. Use Free Software and only Free Software or we won't like you.

    You're forgetting that most of the users WANT THE JOB TO BE DONE. Period. They don't give a damn and they never will because their object of interest is not the operating system or the philosophy around it - it's their work. The graphics, essay or spreadsheet they need to have done for yesterday. And no crappy speeches will ever change that. And we need those users. Some of us even are those users, even if some time ago, before really starting to work, we were like "open source and my OS are my life". Without those users Linux will never gain a reasonable market share. Even Vista won't help because normal people, those who want everything to just work OOTB, will go for Mac OS X. You think that'd be good because they're not worth of Linux? Then think twice. That way Linux will remain the forgotten realm of operating systems forever - for geeks without all the world's big apps and trying not to stay behind. But no games, no photoshop, no macromedia or whatever else.

    Nobody forces you to use the closed driver so don't force me to use the Free one. It's as simple as that.

    Btw. Distros will not ship with binary drivers by default ever. Not until the law in some countries changes. And even then i guess they won't - they'd give you a choice on the installation or right after it. Something like the Ubuntu's codec installation stuff. Or the Ubuntu's Proprietary Driver Manager.

  6. #16
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    If you are willing to sacrifice your Freedom and accept distro's shipping binary drivers enabled by default, then you don't even deserve the privilege of being a GNU/Linux user.
    another case of rms-izm. linux is about choice. if you want to use devices which need a blob of firmware, or proprietary drivers under linux - you're free to do so. actually, denying that choice is sacrificing users freedom.

    i need firmware for my usb wireless adapter. i need firmware for realtime hardware mpeg2 encoder on my hvr-1300 card. does that make me "unworthy", even though i've been successfylly using linux exclusively for last 5 years?

    personally i don't mind using binary drivers if i have to. but personally i prefer using open source alternatives, if there are any. that's probably because of my bad experience with fglrx :]
    Last edited by yoshi314; 07-21-2008 at 06:44 AM.

  7. #17
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    I don't see a problem here the choice to use blobs is still there.

    Doing it by the default is wrong, because as was said these drivers are not part of X, and are closed source. GNU/Linux and open source doesn't really work well with closed source drivers, because things here change and keeping up the compatibility for all cost is not the way it's done (it's the way MS does things)... and keeping bugs in the code for the sake of compatibility is not the way it should be done, right ?

    Anyway the more accepted the blobs are the more Windows alike will Linux be (with all the compatibility/stability problems)... so I guess blobs should be tolerated to some extent but not encouraged.
    Last edited by val-gaav; 07-21-2008 at 07:47 AM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coppertop View Post
    Btw. Distros will not ship with binary drivers by default ever. Not until the law in some countries changes. And even then i guess they won't - they'd give you a choice on the installation or right after it. Something like the Ubuntu's codec installation stuff. Or the Ubuntu's Proprietary Driver Manager.
    I think the issue here is the kernel license and not the law in some countries.
    Last edited by val-gaav; 07-21-2008 at 07:47 AM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hubick View Post
    If you value convenience over Freedom, use Windows or Mac OS X.
    Wow, thanks, dude. I'm not allowed to use this OS because I value convenience over 'Freedom'.

    You know what? Quite a lot of people do the game, too. Say bye-bye to your better driver dreams if they all follow your instructions.

    Yeah, same old thing, linux is for l33t haxxors who can tinker with their xorg.conf allll day long 'till they finally get it right, then be overjously happy, and proclaim to the world how their OS is better! But noooo, you can't use it. Even if it's free. It's not for you.
    Last edited by Vadi; 07-21-2008 at 08:15 AM.

  10. #20
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    NV trying to forcefeed their stupid driver ... Honestly, this does it for me. I'll buy another NVidia card when pigs fly.

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