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Thread: LinuxGames has a QuakeCon recap...

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  1. #1
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    Default LinuxGames has a QuakeCon recap...

    One of the key take away items here would be:

    Question: What are your current views on the Linux situation [...]?

    Answer: I can’t say I have really high hopes for it. If Quake Live does well, Mac is our next target on that, but I would not be shocked if we wind up with a Linux target on there. It’s an under served community [...] and I’m happy to see Quake Live there. It is unlikely that the big titles [Wolfenstein, Rage, Doom 4] will have anywhere near simultaneous releases. If one of the guys internally says I want to go port to Linux on my weekend or whatever, I’ll be supportive of that, but it’s not something we’re probably going to devote company resources to on there.

    The bright spot for Linux on gaming might be Android, mobile space. There’s still no real sign that that’s going to take off, but if it does that could be a significant and useful thing. People wrote about the death of PC gaming, but PC has problems relative to the consoles, but all of those problems that the PC has are just an order of magnitude worse on the Linux space. So it’s not really a good target.

    Every year or so somebody comes up with or plans some Linux-based set-top box that has gaming features, and it never really amounts to anything, and I don’t see any conditions that are going to be forcing that to change in the future. There are certainly aspects of it that I would like, there’s Linux on my flight computer, it’s a good tool for a lot of things. And it might make a useful tool, more so than being Linux, there’s nothing that I think Linux would bring to a console operating system, but there is something that open source would bring to it: those two days that I spent frustrated about my deadlock against Microsoft’s video codec on there I’m sure could’ve been solved much more rapidly if all of it was actually completely open. But there’s nothing that really bothers me about Microsoft or some of these operating system levels there; they’re done competently. Linux would probably bring more trouble than benefits to those things. If the world changed and there was a huge uptake of Linux on PC’s all over the place, it’d be nice, I wish the platform well, but it’s not even on our radar right now for our current projects.
    (The following is representative of MY views and does not reflect any entities' views such as LGP (for which I have a tag on my name here in this forum)...)

    Rage will happen for us, but only on their time- and WE, the people out there using Linux, have only ourselves to blame.

    Why do I say this?

    Each time you lot goes and bitches about the "age" of a given game or compares the price of the Windows version versus the Linux one and bitches about that you do yourselves and everyone else a serious disservice. We're being watched. And this is the results of some of that sort of thing.

    Spare all of us the "more money" line, folks- it's not valid, really. Do you think iD cares about a piddling 1000-2000 users' worth of money? In their minds, that's about all they think they can sell based off of what people can publicly see and the past performances we've given them in this area (Q3:A only sold 200 copies for the official Linux version because of the kinds of thinking I've seen espoused in these forums...)- which makes it not worth their while. The main reason he's been doing Linux titles is that it made sense to make the stuff cross platform and we were an underserved market. Unfortunately for us, we also seem to be an arrogant and ungrateful one as well, presuming that we're entitled to stuff.

    You're NOT their customer. At best, you're a user of their software if you're using one of their official or unofficial platforms they've chosen to target.

    Their customer is the publisher.

    The publisher's customer is the retailer.

    When you buy from a retailer, they don't care about what OS you're running- they're selling you a little box with a bit of paper and a bit of plastic in it, that purportedly does something when it is stuck into a Windows or MacOS based machine or a console.

    So we've got over 30 million users worldwide. Great.

    How many of that are willing to buy games? Hundreds? Thousands?

    If it's not the same scope and scale as the Mac crowd has been (and we're not there, gang, because of that sense of entitlement we all seem to have here...) they're NOT going to be interested, being a seriously underserved community and all. They've got to see a return on things and for most players, they're not seeing anything except a LOSS from making stuff for us.

    What we've shown is that we're not interested in buying games- and in a manner that leads people like iD to not consider us being on the radar and like Epic who's delayed the release now some 10 months if we even SEE the thing in the case of UT3.

    Spare me conspiracy theories of Microsoft. Sure, they might have had SOME hand in Unreal not being in our hands- but it's unlikely all the same.

    We're our own worst enemy, if you honestly want to know the truth. This is the fruits, folks, of the "it's too expensive", or "it's too old", or "that tanked" lines of thought and the resultant actions.

    You run Linux. WHY would you ever want to run a Windows title?
    In the infancy of things right now, WHY would you ever commit an infringement on a given title?

    Because you can? Because you can't be bothered to hold off for a better situation or to get an actual native binary? Because the game's "too cool" and you can't stand not being able to run it?
    Because you don't think the game's worth the price, either because the Windows version is cheaper than the Linux version or "you've already bought it"?

    Each time you use WINE for a contemporary game you vote for Windows, even if we're as large a userbase as we think we are.

    Each time you buy a Windows SKU and "convert" it to Linux when there was an official Linux version, you make a vote for Windows.

    Each time you choose to make an infringement of a current selling Linux title, you're actually HURTING things- yes, I know it's a no-sale, but the problem is when the "no-sales" comprise what would have possibly made for a break-even or a profit sufficient to get the next and cooler title that might have sold, you defeat yourselves. The people doing the infringements seem to think it was worth spreading around- but not worth enough to buy. Each time someone does this, it gives the impression, right or wrong, that we aren't interested in buying games. Moreover, it lends the impression, right or wrong, that we're more interested in infringing upon their rights that paying the money for things...

    Look well at this folks. This is the fruits of all of our labors here.

    Just at the moment we're winning one fight for things, we're losing it for at least the next 3-5 years or more on the gaming front.

    Because of the things I've just said.

    I hope all of the people that are guilty of the aforementioned things are PROUD of themselves. They're succeeding in doing for Microsoft what they couldn't do otherwise- deep sixing gaming on Linux for some time to come.
    Last edited by Svartalf; 08-16-2008 at 12:19 PM.

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    Are you finished with the lame ranting? Sorry to say this but it's a long time since I read such a garbage. Over at the Escapists there's a nice article about "game industries lies" or let's call it "excuses". People who do not support a platform and then go moan about the platform not having users is hypocritical. What we need is "action" and "solutions" not "excuses" and "fighting-problems-instead-of-solving-them". Sure Linux is not the same mass as Windows but if any minority ( no matter how small or big ) on Earth would be genocided would you call this "correct" or "their own fault"? Here it's the same. The AAA companies fight with daggers and swords against Linux so what we need are people taking up the weapons and fighting back with solutions instead of running from them. Attacking the common user unable to change something is plain utterly wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlord View Post
    Are you finished with the lame ranting?
    After seeing what has happened and why, I don't think it's as lame as you're making it out to be. I'm just having a bad day, I guess. It's still a problem with the people that have posted (You're NOT one of them, mind... ) in the forums in the past. We seem to have a contingent that seem to think they're entitled to games and that we matter right at the moment to the studios.

    Sorry to say this but it's a long time since I read such a garbage. Over at the Escapists there's a nice article about "game industries lies" or let's call it "excuses". People who do not support a platform and then go moan about the platform not having users is hypocritical.
    I believe that was what I was railing at. People that don't support the platform and we're not talking about the studios.

    And I'd hesitate to call it "garbage"- just look in the forums at things that were said in the LGP DRM thread and elsewhere in the Games section. I posted what I posted because I do know something about why Mr. Carmack stated what he did at QuakeCon- I've actually worked with the man in the past on other projects... I know what actually happened with Quake3:Arena for the Linux and Windows versions. And as someone wise once said, those who fail to understand history are doomed to repeat it. We're doing the same silly decisions as a community over and over again.

    What we need is "action" and "solutions" not "excuses" and "fighting-problems-instead-of-solving-them".
    I'm trying to do that in the other thread, actually...

    And it's not excuses, unfortunately. What I've said is based off of watching this for about a decade going now.

    The AAA companies fight with daggers and swords against Linux so what we need are people taking up the weapons and fighting back with solutions instead of running from them. Attacking the common user unable to change something is plain utterly wrong.
    Unfortunately, it's not that the companies are fighting us as much as some of the antics of the people I called out are leading them to believe that we're irrelevant- and then the people in question keep bitching about not having any good titles and going and doing the same things to cause the feedback loop we're in to start all over again. I've watched it happen for the Linux community for the last decade (Yes...decade...I've been a user and developer for much longer than that, really- just not in the games space save for the last four to five...). You may not see it because you're a late comer, but it's all the same- same crap, different year.

    And the common user being unable to change something is bunk as well- if my rant's "garbage" your using that line makes your counter one just as much so... They're able to change a LOT of things- they just don't know or realize that they've got all sorts of power.

    For example...

    The RIAA and their member companies that they represent are only able to do the crap they do right now because they're flush with cash from people buying their garbage. Each person infringing or buying their stuff perpetuates the network effect that put them into this financial power they have. Not buying their stuff would be a good answer, because most of it's tripe anyhow.

    But people keep buying and infringing all the same- all the while they keep buying laws that erode all of our rights we had in the past. All the while they keep bullying people that don't even use their stuff, accusing them of "downloading" even when they don't even HAVE a computer to download. All with that money we keep putting in their pockets.

    In this case, if we were to use your position you just espoused, you'd say they were unable to change things (This is your own words that you chose, Dragonlord...)- that we just have to live with the reality of it all. You and I both know that this isn't the case- and more and more people are going with Indie bands for their music listening as they're better and they don't have the same strings attached as the RIAA labels' performers' stuff does.

    Powerless/unable to change is facing a tornado or a hurricane at the moment the storm arrives or being in an earthquake.

    Anything else is a choice up to that point.

    It's no different with games, really. THAT is what my rant was directed towards. Forgive me if I wasn't clear with it- I'm very frustrated upon reading what John had to say about all of this morning after trying to get things better for so long with people working counter to what honestly needed to happen. We need to have two things happen to fix this.

    I'm working on the answers in one of them- which is asking my potential users/customers what they actually WANT and trying to sort through the expectations and give them things that will be appealing to them. I hope to have the deals on a few here shortly. If so, I'd consider that a win. I'm hoping to actually kick-start a lively Indie space where it really does work for them to make cross-platform/Linux-only titles with what all I'm doing, in addition to bringing some cool niche and Indie games over.

    The other is to work at trying to get people to realize that they're not so important as they think they are to the big players. That the griping about Linux being such a large user base does not map to the things they're seeing in addition to it all.

    Why make a Linux version if the WINE version "will do", even if it's a poor answer for us? There's no good reason for them to do anything but Windows titles- and we keep buying the Windows titles to run under WINE, especially when there were native clients that got kiboshed by the publisher (WoW is a good example of this...), which sends the message that it's okay. But, yet, everyone keeps saying that this isn't okay. So, which is it? And it's not unable to choose as you describe it. Yes, choosing to not play might be unpalatable, but if you play you tell them it's okay to make more Windows clients.

    Why make a Linux version when the Linux versions of other games are getting pirated 5 to 1 over purchases? This isn't discussing their reasons (Which have been hashed out over and over elsewhere and while I don't agree with much of any of their reasons, it's still their thinking the users seem to be using...) this is discussing that ratio. With those sorts of numbers, if you're a studio doing Windows games, would YOU do a version in that space, knowing what they're doing right now? I sure as Hell wouldn't.

    In both of those cases, and in what I ranted about, it's not that people can't change things. They can- they're just choosing to not do so and then mouthing off about everyone snubbing Linux and all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlord View Post
    Are you finished with the lame ranting? Sorry to say this but it's a long time since I read such a garbage. Over at the Escapists there's a nice article about "game industries lies" or let's call it "excuses". People who do not support a platform and then go moan about the platform not having users is hypocritical. What we need is "action" and "solutions" not "excuses" and "fighting-problems-instead-of-solving-them". Sure Linux is not the same mass as Windows but if any minority ( no matter how small or big ) on Earth would be genocided would you call this "correct" or "their own fault"? Here it's the same. The AAA companies fight with daggers and swords against Linux so what we need are people taking up the weapons and fighting back with solutions instead of running from them. Attacking the common user unable to change something is plain utterly wrong.
    That Escapist article wouldn't be done by Zero Puncuation would it? It sounds like his tone...

    I do want to offer my arguments again as well.

    - Linux just came on the big-league market for pre-installed computers courtesy of Dell. Windows and Apple have a long lead on us. For simplicity I'll use a running race analogy. MS is using steroids and has now run out. We're starting to see the after effects of that ill-gotten gain (the fact they had to have a commercial to toute Vista SP1 is proof). Apple burst out of the gate, got a good lead, fell flat on their faces, and is now back up and running, trying to catch up to MS. Both MS and Apple are in it for the prize at the end. We've been pacing ourselves, but we're in it for the fun, not the prize (although it doesn't hurt). We expect that MS and Apple will run out of breath and we'll just zoom by them, keeping our pace, with MS and Apple struggling to keep up.
    -- I wonder how many analogies can be applied that fit...

    - The industry situation definitely is a catch-22. There has to be a market before there can be a market. Some of the small time games may help, but a lot of people are looking for more recent games that they will enjoy. I like the quote about some companies stepping up to the plate, leap of faith and all.

    - The main reason that prices are so high on the Linux developed stuff, is that the studios have to try and recoup the prices they paid to get access to the code they ported. The Windows games have been out so long, everyone has been paid fairly thuroughly, and they can afford to drop the price, now that they have recouped their costs.

    - There are moral people in the downloading community. Why do you think gamecopyworld has continued to exist? I had to go there all the time because I ran a CD-Less gaming system for some time. Heck, I still have the data stored on an external hard drive on my desk!

    - There are people spearheading (and oddly enough, the pun wasn't intended) a drive to change the industry's thinking on the matter, Svartalf is one of them, Icculus is another, but he is being stringed by Epic. I hope to be too once I finish school (Thanks for helping with ideas for my X-platform IDE, Svartalf, I'll be setting it up soon, I'm procrastinating because I don't have my EVDO card set up in my Windows partition yet).

    - From what I read on the first post, Carmack may not officially support it anymore, but he won't stop any of his office staff from porting it on their spare time. He's still for it, but I get the feeling it's coming off to him as more of a hassle nowadays it seems. Chances are someone will take him up on that. I know I would.

    - The Windows emulation is definitely killing us. What we can't run natively, we can emulate. I'm lobbed into this group because of game popularity. I most likely will be getting Starcraft II, and unless there's a Linux native binary, I will most likely be using Cedega to play with my friends. It's one of those "We'd love it for our system, but we'll settle for second rate emulation". This is causing the numbers to skew very badly, against us. We don't have a relation with the developer or the publisher. We have a relation with the retailer selling us the game. The shop I saw selling Quake 3 for Linux was the only package I saw, and I have not seen a "for Linux" game package after that. I agree we need better distribution.

    - I cannot begin to recall all the posts I've seen asking for a linux native binary. A lot of them also say that "if this comes out on linux, I won't need to dual-boot to Windows anymore". This goes back to the leap of faith part. More people will abandon Windows if their favorite games can be made on Linux. Even more piercing is the arguments "The server doesn't count.", "It's leveraging Linux stability for an otherwise unusable game.", "Let the unstable software run on their unstable servers.". These definitely do hurt our image by saying if we can't have it, we don't want it, period. Problem is, someone always does want it, there is a market, see leap of faith. The only way I see it is that it has to be developed in parallel, or it's hardly worth it.

    - People can change things, right now. That's the beauty of Linux. You don't like it, you write it. Unfortunately this attitude is also part of the problem.

    - There's more... but I'm tired, and it's light out again.

    - Svartalf, you have every right to be upset, I am too, but I am not in direct view of your looking glass (I don't know most of the data that you have).

    - I think we need to take a step back and survey the situation. What we can do to increase support? (Get the product to the retail store shelves. Any more?)

    ... not bad for someone up at 6:16a EDT and hasn't gone to bed yet... ^_^
    Last edited by me262; 08-18-2008 at 07:50 AM. Reason: Swords daggers and spears oh my! (an analogy, an idea, and cleanup)

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    You know, I am probably very wrong or maybe my thoughts are flawed but I think as a community as a whole we can resolve this whole issue. The issue is not out there as much as its within us already. Meaning, Open Source development. What we need to do is create a cool but simple open source game that can rival the industries best on every front. People migrate to Linux all the time due to Compiz or whatever, but if we could get people to migrate to Linux for that big word, games. We could really dish it out to the industry and ultimately I think we could really get what we want.

    Granted, thats alot of work, but I think with proper organization and the "right" people we could have the chemistry and all to build such a game. I know this could go right into another thread of its own but this covers the issue that we have been trying to fight forever now and there just doesn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel thus far.

    Just like how Enemy Territory got the attention of the game industry or Counter-Strike. We ultimately could do the same exact thing, infact there are projects out there right now that could pull it off but their development just isn't moving fast enough. I also think the game would have to be Linux and Mac only. If Windows was supported and the game became popular it wouldn't matter if it supported Linux or Mac. It would come back to haunt us and that wouldn't really work. Publicity would be another thing we'd need, without it, well, no one will know about it then haha.

    But I'm done ranting and preaching for now, thats just my two cents on how to solve this, we need AAA titles, we need all this and that. I don't think selling small time games that no one really wants to buy is the solution, I think the solution is a game of our own, but who knows I am very likely wrong here. But I'm just not sure what can REALLY work at this point.
    Last edited by Malikith; 08-18-2008 at 12:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malikith View Post
    What we need to do is create a cool but simple open source game that can rival the industries best on every front.
    ...
    I also think the game would have to be Linux and Mac only. If Windows was supported and the game became popular it wouldn't matter if it supported Linux or Mac.
    How would you accomplish this? Windows isn't void of open source coders, and there's plenty of Linux coders that aim for the ultimate in portability. Even if the end product itself doesn't support Windows, as long as the source is available you can be sure someone will port it there.

    But I tend to agree with Dragonlord on this. Let it run on Windows, but make sure it's clearly "developed for Linux".

    Someone mentioned asking Mark Shuttleworth/Canonical to fund such game development. I think that might be a good starting point, but we could also ask companies behind other distributions.. or hell, maybe even IBM, if they want to pitch in. Such a game doesn't have to be free, either. Even if the code was open source/GPL, there's nothing stopping you from selling it for money. Plus if you put the art/media assets under a non-free license, people would still have to buy it to legally get the full game.

    Then if such a game is a success, we can start funding more games, and paying other developers/publishers to port their games to Linux as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    How would you accomplish this? Windows isn't void of open source coders, and there's plenty of Linux coders that aim for the ultimate in portability. Even if the end product itself doesn't support Windows, as long as the source is available you can be sure someone will port it there.

    But I tend to agree with Dragonlord on this. Let it run on Windows, but make sure it's clearly "developed for Linux".

    Someone mentioned asking Mark Shuttleworth/Canonical to fund such game development. I think that might be a good starting point, but we could also ask companies behind other distributions.. or hell, maybe even IBM, if they want to pitch in. Such a game doesn't have to be free, either. Even if the code was open source/GPL, there's nothing stopping you from selling it for money. Plus if you put the art/media assets under a non-free license, people would still have to buy it to legally get the full game.

    Then if such a game is a success, we can start funding more games, and paying other developers/publishers to port their games to Linux as well.
    Yeah, you could have LGP or something actually make a game even though they just do ports/publish it might prove for at the very least an interesting discussion for them.

    My whole point about having a game be Linux/Mac only was just a idea to fight fire with fire. But maybe it would make sense to Windows users to see a runs best on Linux thing or something on it right on the main menu down in the right corner or something. I just think about alot of the Windows users I see on these Windows hardware forums that are so closed minded and how ignorant they are. It just makes me feel like they wouldn't even look at the logo. Thats really where I was coming from on that. I guess you can't say they won't, but you really can't say they will either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlord View Post
    @Malikith:

    I have to disagree there. Getting by good coders is hard since most of them do their own thing. 3D modelers are also not the biggest problem to get by. Most troubles are int he 2D department and mapping. Also the quality of course. The good people are often snagged away buy Windows only projects leaving half-hearted people for the other projects which have a good idea and dedicated people but none with the top-notch skills required. Would help if projects could be narrowed down and people clogging into them instead of distributing them over a lot of projects ending up with project teams of a couple of people most of which are not artsy enough.

    EDIT: got race-posted ... so much for not locking the Mutex
    Now here I disagree with you and heres why, lets look at all the open source and free games out there that support Linux. Heres some of the more recent examples, Tremulous, Warsow, World of Padman, Frozen Bubble 2, Urban Terror, all these games have pretty good coding (mostly ioquake3 games but they do have to do some Quake C for sure), but how many of these games actually have really high quality art, well.. World of Padman does, Frozen Bubble 2 does, and Warsow has some good art too.

    Warsow though has some good coding as well since they really did rework that Quake 2 engine to death. And without programmers/scripters, well, none of these games would exist. So I think its safe to say theres plenty of "good enough" programmers out there, hell, look around. I mean theres good stuff everywhere I look in the open source world. I can't say I see GREAT artwork all the time though when it comes to Open Source games.

    You can have 5000 John Carmacks but if you don't have the artists your project won't go anywhere, it'll just be a engine not a game. So I think its safe to say you just need programmers that are "good enough". Which theres quite a few of those. Sure you could find a crappy modeler anywhere, but if your game doesn't look very good, not really anyone is gonna want to play it even if you are John Carmack himself doing the programming.

    Mappers are in abundance though, everytime I look at what projects are looking for are usually modelers or a programmer. They are usually full of level designers. Guys that do textures and stuff though can be hard to find too though, I will agree with you there.
    Last edited by Malikith; 08-18-2008 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by me262 View Post
    - I think we need to take a step back and survey the situation. What we can do to increase support? (Get the product to the retail store shelves. Any more?)
    Heh... The main problem with getting to the brick and mortar level of sales is that most store chains won't deal with the Linux stuff at all. Best Buy's got the XP eeePC 901 models in stock, but not the Linux ones (By the by, I can't see why anyone would want the XP version there- it's bog slow, etc...). To the retail stores, it's another similar SKU and unless they can see a substantive profit to allocate a good chunk of shelving space to delineate Windows, versus MacOS, versus Linux, they're just NOT going to allocate space. A mom-and-pop place might go this route or even go Linux-only in some locales, but the main vendors' worries are their bottom lines- and unless you're going to have them see the community buying something on the order of 5-10 of any given title at 30% or more of their chain, we're not worth the "trouble" we'd bring them.

    This would be another facet of the "more money" line of thinking being just about opposite in reality. The moment you throw one of those other OSes in the mix, it convolutes the situation for the publisher (costing them profits...if the gain's not moderately or majorly offsetting the increased expenses...you can do the math there...) and of the retailer (ditto...).

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    You know what, Dragonlord...

    Afrer re-reading it all, I think we're both right, but both taking a bit too extreme a position.

    You stated you're a developer. Are you with a studio?

    If so, what kind of title are you working on and what state is it in? Would they be interested in an additional developer helping make more than the rendering code (you're obviously a GL guy... ) work on a purely royalty basis for the sales of the Linux titles?

    If not, are you working on an actual title? If so, would you like some assistance on the title? If so, I'm game if you're willing to take my bitchy backside on with you. If not, I may still have publishing contacts to get the title in the channel for you without having to pay that "price" many other studios do.

    We need to quit having people do the things I've bitched about.

    But, perhaps, I need to, now that I've got it off my chest proper, drop it (unless we want to keep debating the subject...).

    And, perhaps, we both ought to fully step up to the plate and do what you propose. I've already got the start of it going on several fronts. What do you have to offer as well?

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    I've got nothing against a constructive discussion. After all this puts mature people aside fro crybabies.

    I'm with you what goes for the garbage out there being it now in music or games. I'm also for indie bands or in this case indie developers and they are what I work on a solution for. I do not think that people have a chance out there. The reason for my point is that making a game involves a couple of things starting with an engine over getting a full team assembled down to distribution and finally support. What goes for distribution and support this can be boiled down to simple things or provided by the community. It's therefore not the stumble stone. The main problem are the former two. A useful engine ( and I fiddled around with a couple of free engines before I decided to do what I do now ) with AAA quality costs a hell of bucks. This prevents creative people and indies from getting an innovative game up and running. What goes for the consumers I do not think that they have a lot of choices. You can not go and buy a Linux game since the clients are lacking or not existing at all. You can not buy the Windows game but the big mass of casual gamers takes what is on the shelf and most of them have a Windows machine ( with preinstalled OS ). So not buying those games ( or pirating them as another viable but not problem solving solution ) by the pro Linux people is not going to put a noticeable dent in their income stream. This is why I consider the customers ( those in minority ) helpless and why I think it's not fair to shout at them. Granted some are the gimme-free people who pirate anything but they do this also for Windows games. They are anyways not going to change and in my world view they are marked as "calculated losses". Instead of shouting at them I prefer to rally up those who have the skills and the will do do something.

    I had been a bit harsh at you in my post. Guess I had a bad day too ( yeah, Saturday... this IS a bad day for me ). I can understand the points of you two ( you and John ). I do anyways no more expect the big companies to get the hang on Linux. I'm confident that the indies have to win this war before the big companies start to venture there.

    About me I'm indie. I do not have an official studio although I attach my work to a limited partnership company I'm in which is in the hand of my family. I'm currently working on two projects. The first one is writing an AAA grade game engine with full cross platform support and a new approach on maintenance ( what I call OS Type or Run-Time Modularity ) under the GPL. The main goal is to give creative people an engine which gives them access to the needed firepower to turn their visions into reality without having to deal with the behemoths game engines became over time. The second project is an entire game build on this engine where I want to take a step away from the mainstream crap jolted at gamers. I started out the project under the promise to make it a free game ( sort of make-yourself-known title ) so I run it as a community project ( but I kept the option open to go commercial should I ever get a real team up ). I started the work on the individual projects ( including not mentioned ones ) roughly 3 years ago. Before that I did modding and messed with engines to learn how they work. So my main work is the game engine at the time being. I set the goal to get it out this year. That's my contribution to solving one of the problems with Linux gaming.

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