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Thread: A Battle For Good Open-Source Game Graphics?

  1. #21
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    GPL isn't everything.... development is free to continue on the engine and it is free to use and even distribute for non commercial purposes

    Its free perhaps not up to RMS standards... but your free not to put your time into working on the game :-P

    seriously GPL BSD whatever license trolling is what doesn't belong in this thread

  2. #22
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    it does, if you try to promote a game that isn't free at all. You can not put it on a distribution dvd and sent it somewhere for money, for example. What happened if ubuntu included it and canonical answered a support request? they would be deep in very muddled water. The engine is not free nor really open source.

  3. #23
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    just because it isn't free for commercial distribution doesn't make it evil

    Your argument about inclusion in a distro is silly .... no distro is going to end up in such a mess its pretty obvious it isn't free to distribute like that its practially plastered all over thier site

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cb88 View Post
    just because it isn't free for commercial distribution doesn't make it evil

    Your argument about inclusion in a distro is silly .... no distro is going to end up in such a mess its pretty obvious it isn't free to distribute like that its practially plastered all over thier site
    Bingo. Energyman is confusing free software with opensource. Two totally different things.

    BTW that license is pretty old. This is the current

    Volition Copyright (applies to original FreeSpace2 source code
    developed and released by Volition):

    "Copyright (C) Volition, Inc. 1999. All rights reserved.

    All source code herein is the property of Volition, Inc. You may not
    sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you
    created based on the source."


    Modifications by members of the FreeSpace Source Code Project are
    released under whatever terms the individual authors choose, but the
    above notice continues to apply to all fs2_open code.
    Last edited by deanjo; 04-26-2009 at 11:20 PM.

  5. #25
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    Hello, I just wanted to add some details about what we've been doing with Alien Arena, and the CRX engine.

    The addition of GLSL to CRX actually began in August of 2008, which on the surface seems simple enough, but as someone stated, it's one thing to add the shader support, it's another to make it do something useful. We were able to add parallax, normal, and specular effects to the map surfaces, as well as very nice dynamic lighting effects. After that we added new per-pixel water effects. The most difficult issue was getting normal/specular mapping to work on models, which took alot of trial and error, but finally we got that working about a month or so ago. This allowed us to remove the old fixed function per-pixel effects that were just horrendously slow, and not nearly as nice looking. It also forced us to completely rewrite the way meshes were rendered, which was a good thing. We are still exploring some other ideas with using GLSL for effects, and who knows what we will come up with. We are also looking at shadow mapping, and some other options.

    I know when things get mentioned about graphics, people immediately think that is all that is being focused on, and that other things are neglected, but that is definitely not the case. Even though we've done alot of renderer work over the last year, we've also managed to work heavily on gameplay, artwork, and levels. Since the release of Alien Arena 2007, nearly every model and map have been replaced, which is something I don't think I've seen any other free game do in that timeframe. I really believe we have a remarkable little team in place that is devoted to their hobby. It was said in this thread that most FOSS games are held back by their art, and that Alien Arena was among those, but I firmly believe that our art assets are of good quality. I know that can be subjective and that is fine(and yes, I *am* biased ).

    Regarding physics, there are things floating around in our minds, though I doubt they would come in the upcoming release, may down the road, such as ragdolls, and vehicle physics. Destructible enviroments? Possibly, well it's possible now, but not in a modern or cool way, but that could be something interesting in a deathmatch game I think.

    The ultimate goal for us(besides having a blast working on a game) is to create an experience that is not only fun, but rich visually and aurally. I mean, if graphics meant nothing, we'd be playing Pac Man, right? It all counts, IMO, and no aspect of the game ever gets untouched between releases. We've done a lot of nice little things too, which will become more apparent when the release comes out, to make it just a more fun and pleasing experience.

    Speaking of graphics, there is always a delicate balance of looking good vs playing good, and finding the right combination is often tricky. So to that end, we've steadily been optimizing, and at the same time adding various "eye candy" features. We've also made sure that the game is very scalable, so that people with older hardware can still play the game, which is often other dicey trick. You can very easily wind up bloating an engine trying to do that, so it has to be done with great care.

    As for the future, and the other various similar games like Nexuiz, Warsow, Sauerbraten, it's really great to see these games pushing ahead, each trying to outdo the other. A little friendly competition is great(though in the gaming world that is another difficult thing to maintain, unfortunately). I don't know what the impending release of id tech 4 will have as impact. Most of these games are already making use of the same type of technologies, so I doubt many will be switching over. We saw the same thing with the other Quake engines. There were dozens of tech 1 engines, then when tech 2 was released, a handful of those. Tech 3 has far fewer, so I do wonder. I think most will attempt to glean some things from tech 4 rather than make a wholesale switch.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irritant View Post
    H I mean, if graphics meant nothing, we'd be playing Pac Man, right?
    How dare you dis the puck!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irritant View Post
    Hello, I just wanted to add some details about what we've been doing with Alien Arena, and the CRX engine.

    The addition of GLSL to CRX actually began in August of 2008, which on the surface seems simple enough, but as someone stated, it's one thing to add the shader support, it's another to make it do something useful. We were able to add parallax, normal, and specular effects to the map surfaces, as well as very nice dynamic lighting effects. After that we added new per-pixel water effects. The most difficult issue was getting normal/specular mapping to work on models, which took alot of trial and error, but finally we got that working about a month or so ago. This allowed us to remove the old fixed function per-pixel effects that were just horrendously slow, and not nearly as nice looking. It also forced us to completely rewrite the way meshes were rendered, which was a good thing. We are still exploring some other ideas with using GLSL for effects, and who knows what we will come up with. We are also looking at shadow mapping, and some other options.

    I know when things get mentioned about graphics, people immediately think that is all that is being focused on, and that other things are neglected, but that is definitely not the case. Even though we've done alot of renderer work over the last year, we've also managed to work heavily on gameplay, artwork, and levels. Since the release of Alien Arena 2007, nearly every model and map have been replaced, which is something I don't think I've seen any other free game do in that timeframe. I really believe we have a remarkable little team in place that is devoted to their hobby. It was said in this thread that most FOSS games are held back by their art, and that Alien Arena was among those, but I firmly believe that our art assets are of good quality. I know that can be subjective and that is fine(and yes, I *am* biased ).

    Regarding physics, there are things floating around in our minds, though I doubt they would come in the upcoming release, may down the road, such as ragdolls, and vehicle physics. Destructible enviroments? Possibly, well it's possible now, but not in a modern or cool way, but that could be something interesting in a deathmatch game I think.

    The ultimate goal for us(besides having a blast working on a game) is to create an experience that is not only fun, but rich visually and aurally. I mean, if graphics meant nothing, we'd be playing Pac Man, right? It all counts, IMO, and no aspect of the game ever gets untouched between releases. We've done a lot of nice little things too, which will become more apparent when the release comes out, to make it just a more fun and pleasing experience.

    Speaking of graphics, there is always a delicate balance of looking good vs playing good, and finding the right combination is often tricky. So to that end, we've steadily been optimizing, and at the same time adding various "eye candy" features. We've also made sure that the game is very scalable, so that people with older hardware can still play the game, which is often other dicey trick. You can very easily wind up bloating an engine trying to do that, so it has to be done with great care.

    As for the future, and the other various similar games like Nexuiz, Warsow, Sauerbraten, it's really great to see these games pushing ahead, each trying to outdo the other. A little friendly competition is great(though in the gaming world that is another difficult thing to maintain, unfortunately). I don't know what the impending release of id tech 4 will have as impact. Most of these games are already making use of the same type of technologies, so I doubt many will be switching over. We saw the same thing with the other Quake engines. There were dozens of tech 1 engines, then when tech 2 was released, a handful of those. Tech 3 has far fewer, so I do wonder. I think most will attempt to glean some things from tech 4 rather than make a wholesale switch.
    I agree that in my experience Alien Arena has had some of the most cohesive art and overall atmosphere and design in Open source games. The weakness I've seen with alien arena has been that the gameplay was straightforward shooter. I love playing nexuiz because the lasers, rocketpacks, and grapling hooks add something to the game even if the artwork and design aren't cohesive.

    Don't know what my point is.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by curaga View Post
    Why is everyone so focused on graphics. I'd dump crysis any day for a game that has both great gameplay and a great story.
    I don't see it so much as a problem of quality graphics, but one of gameplay and physics, so what we can render in GLSL now, the game will still be a basic @$$ FPS game which is nothing more then a gilded Quake clone, there is no story and no game play innovation.

    I've already stated a few modern games anyone looking to make games for linux should play and try to emulate.

    Seriously, we can't even get any good 2d games knocked out that of the same quality or addictiveness as old NES, Gameboy or SNES level.

    I've also stated before why there hasn't been a play for more brand recogniticion by making some epic adventure platformers based off of the various open source mascots.

    I seriously wonder if any of the game makers ever even owned a playstation or any other console... It seems like all they know is how to remake Quake/Unreal Tournament/Doom over and over again. And not even the more modern ones.

    Seriously, find me someone that can draw and someone that can build a 2d rpg engine and I'm sure we could hammer out a half decent 2d RPG.

    Seriously, if a single guy can pull off Cave Story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_Story get it ported to every OS and get it sold on the Wii then why the hell can't the open source community? Don't give me crap about no way to make money, toss up a donation page, source your code and charge a nominal fee for the art if you have to, if that rubs you the wrong way commons release the art for the incidentals and just keep the art for just the key character, castle and item models as well as the story.

    I.E. you hold on to your hero, but you release the mart for the villagers, you keep your reocurring, key to the plot boss but release the basic critters and unoriginal minions. Keep your theme song, release the basic background music and the sound effects package.

    Charge $5 for the game in full for everything, or just try and get it sold on consoles, as many as possible, if that means rewriting the code to get it on the xbox, if you've got the time, by all means.

    You want things liek the Freerunner Neo, GP2X or Pandora to take off? well it's gonna need games, of all sorts.

    Now back to work you slaves! Open source is supposed to be the realm of SciFi geeks and fantasy nerds, act like it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuvQt8_XFww /inspirational music

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by cb88 View Post
    GPL isn't everything.... development is free to continue on the engine and it is free to use and even distribute for non commercial purposes

    Its free perhaps not up to RMS standards... but your free not to put your time into working on the game :-P

    seriously GPL BSD whatever license trolling is what doesn't belong in this thread
    GPL is essence of Open Source. This thread is about REAL Open Source games not about free crappy licenses.

    I mean, if graphics meant nothing, we'd be playing Pac Man, right?
    Nope, Pacman is simple arcade game not RPG or Strategy. If only graphic counts we'd be playing 3D mark games. Every game which focuses mainly on graphics is crap. There's no game which can compete with Fallout 1 or 2.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    Nope, Pacman is simple arcade game not RPG or Strategy. If only graphic counts we'd be playing 3D mark games. Every game which focuses mainly on graphics is crap. There's no game which can compete with Fallout 1 or 2.
    He didn't say games are all about graphics. He said graphics are also important. And that is something I would personally agree with. I also remember how cool it was to play RA years ago, and that in my memory it was one of the best strategy games ever. Looking at it objectively though, it is not good to today's standards. It is nostalgia that interferes. I am not a fallout/RPG player, so I don't know how much of this is true for those games. But I guess games like Diablo III are much better then fallout 1/2 if you would compare them on a objective basis.
    Last edited by MaestroMaus; 04-27-2009 at 04:59 AM. Reason: typo's

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