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Thread: It's 2010, But A No-Go For GNOME's 10x10 Goal

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apopas View Post
    @Hoodlum
    While the video games industry runs a period of ascent. The PC game specifically do not. The future of games lies to the consoles and not to the computers.
    There are many issues here i'll tackle them one at a time:

    People have been saying that since the PSone and probably before. The PS3 & 360 combined have ~50 million sales total (according to wikipedia). Not accounting for the dead 360s people have replaced. This is *nothing* (1/30th) compared to the number of pcs on the net. Infact counting piracy on MW2 *alone* more than dwarfs all consoles combined. The PC market is massive in comparison (but a huge percentage are pirates). Infact the PSone sold 4-5x the amount of consoles both the 360 and the PS3 have sold combined in the same amount of time. Consoles are declining. This is available on wiki and also many other places, official sales figures etc.

    There is a lot of hype about PC gaming "dying". As there was about specific machines for specific tasks in the past - then x86 and the IBM pc came along and equalled or bettered everything else at the same time. The only problem with PC gaming is piracy and when digital download platforms (aka steam, games for windows, impulse, direct2drive, ea direct) etc take over this will be significantly more difficult. None of the digital distribution services are counted in sales figures - only retail sales are counted which make up all console sales but only some pc sales.

    The other thing to consider is they aren't directly a replacement for eachother. Consoles are a passive lounge experience, pc gaming is an active experience. You also still cant play many types of games on the console effectively for example:
    - Starcraft - biggest game in history,
    - Warcraft,
    - Dawn of war,
    - Age of empires,
    - Civilization,
    - Sim City,
    - The Sims
    4x games:
    - sins of a solar empire
    Simulations like:
    - ARMA
    - ARMA II
    - Flight simulator
    and many other examples.

    The cost arguement. PCs cost more? Sure, but there are several issues here:
    1) The price is continually falling (I remember when 1000 wouldn't get a good pc. I can build a fast PC for half that now)
    2) Consoles are getting more expensive every generation (See PSone, PS2, PS3. Xbox, Xbox 360).
    3) Everyone has a PC *already*. Everyone needs a PC - I need a fast PC for work. I need the internet for personal and work use. No one needs a console, a console is a purchase in addition to a PC - this is far more expensive.. A reasonable graphics card is cheap.
    4) Console games are more expensive.
    5) Most games are available on the PC anyway.

    For these reasons the PC market will always be bigger - Infact it has grown much faster than ever and the console market has shrunk. The challenge is tapping the PC market effectively, Piracy is the big issue, game design needs to change. Single player is the past, development studios need to realise this. It is about the social experience now - this is where you make money. The companies that realise this already (Blizzard for example) are already richer than their wildest dreams.

    On the PC you can plug in a controller and it can do everything your console can and more, faster, better looking etc. Another thing to consider is World of Warcraft. They make well over a billion a year in subscriptions. This is tremendous. With this pay to play model they have established people are pirating the more traditional game types and only paying for MMOs - this is another pc only issue (but mmos are coming to consoles soon too so this should be interesting to watch the dynamic change there too)

    The PC as a platform has the same weaknesses Linux has in this regard.....fragmentation. A thousand different copy protection systems (most of which dont work), a thousand different means of distribution (most of which suck and none are counted in sales figures) but these are quickly consolidating now.

    Also consoles are becoming more like PCs (remember when you didnt have to install games on consoles? me too....). I also happen to know from a friend who is working on a major 360 title that future games on microsoft consoles at least (and I believe the industry as a whole) will start requiring CD keys as well. Yep, now you can have all the downsides of PC gaming in your living room - but with worse controls, worse graphics and a worse distribution system (can't buy full games, only mini games) :/ Just wait, once the fight over the distribution platform is won the rest will fall into place easily.
    Last edited by Hoodlum; 01-02-2010 at 01:42 PM.

  2. #12
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    Hoodlums first post says it all. There's still a lot of work to make the Linux desktop really mainstream friendly (video drivers, desktop environment polish, etc... basicly what he said). Regarding games, KDE4 offers better out of the box-games than any other desktop (including Windows 7). Regarding Triple-A titles that are the real problem, I think we can't expect them to happen while the Linux desktop has these basic issues like sound not always working right and the video driver mess, but if that is sorted and it will be in around ~2 years I assume then we can talk about it again.

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    I gave KDE4 a good honest try the other week. It's come a long way. I like Gnome because i'm used to it, and it works simply and easily. Is that usability or habit? Don't know.

    If Gnome keeps going in weird directions I could see myself switching to KDE in the future. But for now at least, i'm happy with Gnome.

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    I always do get a chuckle out of people claiming that consoles are cheaper. Most of the "console gamers" that I know usually have all the major systems. xbox, ps, nintendo, etc. Not only are the console games more expensive to buy but you need to have more consoles then one to get the games that you want and during the life of the console the level of detail and complexity of the games stay relatively flat during that period.

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    PC game sales are UP, but the console sales are up MORE. What this tells is that while the market for video games as a whole is growing, the market is shifting further and further towards consoles.

    None of the digital distribution services are counted in sales figures - only retail sales are counted
    The only widely used digital distribution for video games on PC is Steam. We do not have detailed sales figures for Steam, which sucks. We do have sales figures for console digital distribution, though. We do have stats showing that Half-Life 2 had sold around 3 million units at the same time that a freaking Uno clone on XBLA had sold 1 million units. I'm not impressed by Steam's sales figures.

    Consoles are a passive lounge experience, pc gaming is an active experience.
    I don't know what that means, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

    Consoles play in many cases the same damn games the PC does. The experience is no different, other than that the console usually has a bigger higher-definition screen and uses a controller instead of a mouse and keyboard. Left 4 Dead 2 is every last bit the same experience on my Xbox360 as it is on my PC.

    and many other examples.
    Your examples are a large number of games from a very, very small sub-section of the game market. Basically, complex strategy and simulation games aren't great for use with a controller.

    I could give you a list of console exclusive titles as well, but I imagine you care about those as much as most console gamers care about the Sims (e.g., not at all).

    1) The price is continually falling (I remember when 1000 wouldn't get a good pc. I can build a fast PC for half that now)
    Bullshit argument, since the cost of consoles is falling just as fast. Next.

    2) Consoles are getting more expensive every generation (See PSone, PS2, PS3. Xbox, Xbox 360).
    No, they are not. The PS3 is the super expensive one, and it flopped horrifically until its price-point dropped to the $300 range.

    3) Everyone has a PC *already*. Everyone needs a PC
    Again, bullshit. Laptop and netbook sales increasing faster and faster. The most popular graphics chipset in the world by a HUGE margin is incapable of playing modern games. You'll have trouble playing Left 4 Dead 1 on an Intel IGP, much less its sequel or any of the other top sellers.

    Not all PCs are created equal. Most are not even remotely competent gaming machines. I have 5 year old games that can't run worth a crap on my laptop, which is "high end" compared to most laptops.

    - I need a fast PC for work.
    No, you don't. (Assuming "you" as the general populace -- I suppose if you work as a graphics designer, maybe you actually need a fast PC.)

    No one needs a console, a console is a purchase in addition to a PC - this is far more expensive.. A reasonable graphics card is cheap.
    A reasonable graphics card (one tiny little component of a PC, one that most people will never buy on their own) is $100. A console that can play any high-end game on the console market is $200.

    4) Console games are more expensive.
    If bought brand new, yes. By about $10, or 20%. Most people don't give a shit.

    5) Most games are available on the PC anyway.
    Most games are available on the Xbox360 anyway. (Not sure what point you were trying to make.)

    For these reasons the PC market will always be bigger - Infact it has grown much faster than ever and the console market has shrunk.
    Fiction is fun, but wrong.

    Single player is the past, development studios need to realise this. It is about the social experience now - this is where you make money.
    Which is yet another reason console gaming is pulling ahead. A social experience is much more socially engaging when you can play together on in front of the same screen than when you have to each hide in your own individual gaming caves. Split screen gaming has been a HUGE boost to consoles. The fact that very large, HDTVs are relatively cheap and sales for the TV is sky-rocketing (even die-hard PC gamers own a nice TV, generally) make split screen gaming even better than it used to be.

    On the PC you can plug in a controller and it can do everything your console can and more, faster, better looking etc.
    This is true. Your argument is weakened by your obvious disinclination to list off the PC's negative qualities. Just like your bogus numbers, you seem content to prove the PC's superiority by bending truth.

    PCs ARE more expensive (I don't care if they are or are not getting cheaper -- a gaming PC at this moment in time costs WAY more than an Xbox360, end of story). PCs have higher failure rates and lower customer satisfaction (the Xbox red ring failure rates were crazy high FOR A CONSOLE. they come nowhere close to the multitude of failures PCs suffer, many of which are software issues that consoles just don't have to deal with). PCs generally require or at least encourage the use of the purchase of a monitor instead of just using the big-screen HDTV already sitting in the room. PCs are far more complicated to use and take longer to setup, learn, and play; with a console, you hit the power button, put in the disc, and play. Younger gamers are far more likely to get a console bought for them than a PC, in no small part because the console is LESS versatile than the PC (the kid can't download porn on the Xbox).

    Another thing to consider is World of Warcraft. They make well over a billion a year in subscriptions.
    Those numbers are absolutely irrelevant. They make that money in recurring fees from a relatively small number of games (compared to sales figures for popular games). The MMO market is totally orthogonal to the rest of the market

    (but mmos are coming to consoles soon too so this should be interesting to watch the dynamic change there too)
    And this is where you prove you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. MMOs have been on the consoles for YEARS, and have had incredibly good sales and subscription rates there. Nothing compared to WoW, true, but then no other PC MMO comes close to WoW, either.

    The PC as a platform has the same weaknesses Linux has in this regard.....fragmentation.
    I haven't heard that one before. Interesting take, but I'm not sure it's quite right. I'd label fragmentation as a side-effect of the higher ocmplexity level of PCs as a gaming platform.

    Also consoles are becoming more like PCs (remember when you didnt have to install games on consoles? me too....).
    Funny, I still don't have to install them.

    I also happen to know from a friend who is working on a major 360 title that future games on microsoft consoles at least (and I believe the industry as a whole) will start requiring CD keys as well.
    Which firmly invalidates your prior point about pirating being a PC-only problem. Thanks for helping me prove your own lies.

    but with worse controls
    Matter of opinion. I far prefer controllers to a mouse and keyboard. Hell, I can aim _easier_ with a controller than a mouse.

    worse graphics
    This is true.

    a worse distribution system (can't buy full games, only mini games)
    Funny, I have two full-scale Xbox games on my machine I bought on XBLA. The PS3 has an even better distribution model.

    The Wii is the only console that lacks full-game distribution (depending on your idea of a full game -- there are some great games on WiiWare, e.g. World of Goo -- which has features the PC version does not, for that matter), and that's only because Nintendo decided not to include any means for large file storage; made the system tiny, cheap, and able to outsell PCs and other consoles month after month. Hardcore gamers might not like that decision, but the market clearly got behind it.

    Just wait, once the fight over the distribution platform is won the rest will fall into place easily.
    I can get behind that. I don't see any reason to believe that Steam will trump the console markets, though. The console markets had digital distribution BEFORE Steam came along, and while Steam has certainly gained a leg up over XBLA and PSN, they are not sitting still.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by deanjo View Post
    I always do get a chuckle out of people claiming that consoles are cheaper. Most of the "console gamers" that I know usually have all the major systems. xbox, ps, nintendo, etc. Not only are the console games more expensive to buy but you need to have more consoles then one to get the games that you want and during the life of the console the level of detail and complexity of the games stay relatively flat during that period.
    Simply - consoles and many console games sux :> I'd love to see PC games like they were some years ago not console like games like they are now (in many cases at least). Simplicity which is present in console titles makes me sick. Btw. more good games on Linux more market share.

    @Elanthis

    Most games are available on the Xbox360 anyway. (Not sure what point you were trying to make.)
    I don't think so. There are also many older games which aren't available on consoles and which are still alive and are better then many (if not all) new games.
    Last edited by kraftman; 01-02-2010 at 04:25 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by elanthis View Post
    PC game sales are UP, but the console sales are up MORE. What this tells is that while the market for video games as a whole is growing, the market is shifting further and further towards consoles.
    Piracy, I already explained this. There was an article about Cod4 sales on a developer blog claiming upwards of 90% piracy on the PC...I'll have to find it again.. Yeah, even I was shocked.


    The only widely used digital distribution for video games on PC is Steam. We do not have detailed sales figures for Steam, which sucks. We do have sales figures for console digital distribution, though. We do have stats showing that Half-Life 2 had sold around 3 million units at the same time that a freaking Uno clone on XBLA had sold 1 million units. I'm not impressed by Steam's sales figures.
    Any source? I am not aware of steam sales of HL2 ever being released.


    I don't know what that means, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
    I do, i'll explain. One is an active engagement another is more like a film (cinematic) experience. A good example would be modern warfare 2 single player which is clearly heavily scripted and caters to a "film like" immersive experience that is planned before you as opposed to an open world experience where you have to actively engage yourself to be a part of it. PCs are more suited to the latter, consoles to the former (because of the setting, controls and display device).

    Consoles play in many cases the same damn games the PC does. The experience is no different, other than that the console usually has a bigger higher-definition screen and uses a controller instead of a mouse and keyboard. Left 4 Dead 2 is every last bit the same experience on my Xbox360 as it is on my PC.
    This depends on your individual PC and display device. The point is the PC can provide a better experience. I have a huge monitor with massively higher resolution than any HDTV. The controls on the PC are better for fps and always have been. With AA & AF the image quality is superior on the PC. If you prefer a controller? I can just plug it in and it works with pretty much any game. Consoles do not have this freedom.


    Your examples are a large number of games from a very, very small sub-section of the game market. Basically, complex strategy and simulation games aren't great for use with a controller.
    A few points here:
    Many of those games are some of the biggest selling games of all time. So yeah they may be specific genres but guess what? the PC does both those and more. Nope we dont have to restrict ourselves, this is the joy of the PC - It isn't a massively restricted closed platform.

    I could give you a list of console exclusive titles as well, but I imagine you care about those as much as most console gamers care about the Sims (e.g., not at all).
    I never said there were none just that most games are available on the PC, which we already own.

    Bullshit argument, since the cost of consoles is falling just as fast. Next.
    On release they have got more expensive over time. It is only recently (when the hardware is years out of date) that they are comparable.

    No, they are not. The PS3 is the super expensive one, and it flopped horrifically until its price-point dropped to the $300 range.
    The 360 was more expensive than the xbox was on launch too. The PS3 was barely making any profit on the hardware on release, yep at that "ridiculous" price point. This further backs up my point.


    Again, bullshit. Laptop and netbook sales increasing faster and faster.
    - Most 1st world homes will have at least one desktop PC these days.
    - Most Laptops are second PCs
    - Almost all netbooks are second or third PCs

    The most popular graphics chipset in the world by a HUGE margin is incapable of playing modern games. You'll have trouble playing Left 4 Dead 1 on an Intel IGP, much less its sequel or any of the other top sellers.
    I never denied this. Graphics cards are still cheaper than consoles.

    Not all PCs are created equal. Most are not even remotely competent gaming machines. I have 5 year old games that can't run worth a crap on my laptop, which is "high end" compared to most laptops.
    This largely depends what you expect of them. Let's take the Modern Warfare 2 example. It runs at 600p on consoles. No PC gamer would accept such a low resolution. I can play a hell of a lot of games on a single core A64 3400+ (2003 is the date if you're wondering) with an old 7800GS Nvidia card (Similar to the card the PS3 uses). Yup Modern Warfare 2 at 720p (better than the consoles!) and with older hardware! Even has some horrible 1.5gb of 2700 Value ram in it!


    No, you don't. (Assuming "you" as the general populace -- I suppose if you work as a graphics designer, maybe you actually need a fast PC.)
    I am physicist. Many other people work in the sciences, they also need access to fast PCs. Infact there are more scientists alive today than the entirety of history combined. If you doubt this I can back this up also.

    A reasonable graphics card (one tiny little component of a PC, one that most people will never buy on their own) is $100. A console that can play any high-end game on the console market is $200.
    First of all people in 1st world countries generally have a PC already putting a card in a slot is hardly much work. Secondly $200 would barely buy you a decent graphics card let alone a console here and infact most of the first world countries. America != the world.


    If bought brand new, yes. By about $10, or 20%. Most people don't give a shit.
    People don't care about spending more money In a recession? Please, reality check. Secondly, the premium is significantly higher in many other countries. Luckily the premium where I live is generally one of: 10 (16$) 15(24$) 20 (32$). We have it pretty good, look at the euro countries or worse, Australia. Now those are some price hikes!

    Most games are available on the Xbox360 anyway. (Not sure what point you were trying to make.)
    That we already own a PC and don't need to spend twice as much on the hardware (console) as opposed to getting a new graphics card to play games (because we already have a PC, doh!)


    Fiction is fun, but wrong.
    Ahh and here you trip up, I intentionally mentioned that knowing it would illicit a "liar liar" response. Here's a Link to console sales with sources

    I have to admit. they have been updated since I last looked. The next gen consoles (PS3 / Xbox 360) which compete with the PC have 61 Million units sold now. (PS2 Still sold 138 Million on its own)

    1.46 Billion internet users in 2008
    I couldn't find the 2009 version but I'm sure you could if you looked.
    Yep that's right before even counting every other country in the world china alone has increased by 150 million internet users between 2006 - 2008 Nearly 3 times the number of Xbox 360 + PS3 consoles sold worldwide over less time PC usage is massively outstripping consoles. PC is by far the biggest market. It is popular BECAUSE of its versatility. It will only grow.

    Infact let me show everyone that you have no idea what you're talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...oles#Worldwide

    Yep that's right the Atari 2600 in 1977 sold 30 million, 1 million less than the xbox 360 in a market with vastly more competitors! Some real growth there....Shall we compare that to the growth in PC users since then? Yeah...I think i've made my point.

    I should probably add it seems portable game devices are growing though (Nintendo DS / PSP).

    Which is yet another reason console gaming is pulling ahead.
    In what? the non-pirated, non-mmo, non "randomly declared niche genre because it isn't on my console" stakes? I guess so. In the gaming stakes? no.

    A social experience is much more socially engaging when you can play together on in front of the same screen than when you have to each hide in your own individual gaming caves. Split screen gaming has been a HUGE boost to consoles. The fact that very large, HDTVs are relatively cheap and sales for the TV is sky-rocketing (even die-hard PC gamers own a nice TV, generally) make split screen gaming even better than it used to be.
    True.


    This is true. Your argument is weakened by your obvious disinclination to list off the PC's negative qualities.
    Because you're listing the negatives of consoles? thought not.


    Just like your bogus numbers, you seem content to prove the PC's superiority by bending truth.
    See the sources above. Before calling them "bogus" you might want to actually know what it is you're talking about.
    Last edited by Hoodlum; 01-02-2010 at 05:29 PM.

  8. #18
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    PCs ARE more expensive (I don't care if they are or are not getting cheaper -- a gaming PC at this moment in time costs WAY more than an Xbox360, end of story). PCs have higher failure rates and lower customer satisfaction (the Xbox red ring failure rates were crazy high FOR A CONSOLE. they come nowhere close to the multitude of failures PCs suffer, many of which are software issues that consoles just don't have to deal with). PCs generally require or at least encourage the use of the purchase of a monitor instead of just using the big-screen HDTV already sitting in the room. PCs are far more complicated to use and take longer to setup, learn, and play; with a console, you hit the power button, put in the disc, and play. Younger gamers are far more likely to get a console bought for them than a PC, in no small part because the console is LESS versatile than the PC (the kid can't download porn on the Xbox).
    Can't argue with this, all true.


    Those numbers are absolutely irrelevant. They make that money in recurring fees from a relatively small number of games (compared to sales figures for popular games).
    11 Million current subscribers? Before counting sales of the individual game or expansions? Pretty sure that outsells every game ever. Oh and this is ignoring previous subscribers too - and for one game.


    And this is where you prove you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. MMOs have been on the consoles for YEARS, and have had incredibly good sales and subscription rates there. Nothing compared to WoW, true, but then no other PC MMO comes close to WoW, either.
    No console mmo is even in the top 5 most popular MMOs, this is bogus. The only one that came close - once - was that final fantasy mmo which was on a more popular console (PS2) than the current generation. None of them have come near eve online either. Or city of heroes at its peak. Or Aion. I could go on.


    Which firmly invalidates your prior point about pirating being a PC-only problem. Thanks for helping me prove your own lies.
    Not really, few people pirate on consoles. They want to stamp out any remaining few to prevent the practice after they lost the largest market (the PC).


    Matter of opinion. I far prefer controllers to a mouse and keyboard. Hell, I can aim _easier_ with a controller than a mouse.
    I don't want to rehash the whole mouse is more accurate debate, but it is. I can aim pretty easily with a controller too but there is no way I could be a quick as with a mouse. Point is, the PC gives you the freedom to choose.

    Funny, I have two full-scale Xbox games on my machine I bought on XBLA. The PS3 has an even better distribution model.
    The PS3 didn't even have in game voice for years. Welcome to 1970!

    I can get behind that. I don't see any reason to believe that Steam will trump the console markets, though. The console markets had digital distribution BEFORE Steam came along, and while Steam has certainly gained a leg up over XBLA and PSN, they are not sitting still.
    The xbox/360 was well ahead of steam unfortunately they've been standing still ever since.
    Last edited by Hoodlum; 01-02-2010 at 05:10 PM.

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    When it comes to making audio work better, why not get game developpers to give Ubuntu and such a clear message, eg, you either put SDL and OpenAL on all shipping releases or you're not seeing games. (and from what I can tell, SDL and OpenAL are the tools of choice).

    For audio in general, I still say Pulse was a bad choice, and something like JACK should have been considered for Ubuntu...

    (and no matter how you slice it, a PC is CHEAPER than a console for gaming. especially since the 360 runs its games at about 600p for the most part, or netbook resolutions.)

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    Guys, how the hell did you manage to turn a discussion on Gnome's marketshare into an argument on console gaming? The KDE4-is-the-best-thing-since-sliced-bread flamebait is expected, but console gaming? Come on!

    For audio in general, I still say Pulse was a bad choice, and something like JACK should have been considered for Ubuntu...
    JACK is a transport layer. Pulse is a sound server. Yes, they both work with sound streams, but their similarity ends there.

    (and no matter how you slice it, a PC is CHEAPER than a console for gaming. especially since the 360 runs its games at about 600p for the most part, or netbook resolutions.)
    Well, let me slice it this way: an initial investment for a decent gaming PC is in the range of $750-$1000. This is equal to the cost of a console plus 10 to 15 games.

    The resolution of the 360 has jack shit to do with the cost of a gaming PC (duh?) and this whole discussion is a non sequitur in a thread on Gnome's marketshare speculation.

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