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Thread: Apple Rolls Out WebKit2, But No Linux Love Yet

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  1. #1
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    Default Apple Rolls Out WebKit2, But No Linux Love Yet

    Phoronix: Apple Rolls Out WebKit2, But No Linux Love Yet

    WebKit, the layout engine designed by Apple that was originally derived from KDE's KHTML and since then has picked up support by Google within their Chrome/Chromium web browser, is used in parts of GNOME, and has been adopted elsewhere, just got a new Apple upgrade today. Apple has published what they are calling "WebKit2", which is a new WebKit framework they have been working on for their Safari web-browser...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=ODEzOA

  2. #2
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    This is why I dislike Apple, not nearly as much as MS, but certainly quite a bit. They should not just "accept patches for other OS's". They should contribute back to KHTML. If that's impractical, at the very least they could write a cross-platform engine, and make sure it works in Linux, which would mean KDE can jump to it, or at least merge things back to KHTML more easily.

    Oh well.At least this bit of their work is Open Source (unlike most anything they do).

  3. #3
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    Apple hates linux a lot more than Microsoft does. And I'm not joking.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by bulletxt View Post
    Apple hates linux a lot more than Microsoft does. And I'm not joking.
    I agree with you, but isn't this ironic, considering that Apple stole an entire open source software stack as the base for MacOSX?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thefirstm View Post
    I agree with you, but isn't this ironic, considering that Apple stole an entire open source software stack as the base for MacOSX?
    Apple used the code in just the way the authors intended. They chose not to use a copyleft license, thus calling Apple's behaviour "stealing" is just plain stupid.

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    In the past i simply didn't care about Apple. It wasn't my choice, i prefered Linux for my work and Windows for some games and i never considered Apple products because i couldn't work effectively on them, since i am no designer, and i couldn't play on them except specific titles.

    But i have began to hate this company and actively trying to harm it recently. My reasons are not about fanboism, my reasons are purely logical.

    1) Apple is a purely marketing company. They have created a cult of followers who will not only buy anything on day 1 just because they have an apple logo, but will spam forums, blogs, IRC, IM web sites promoting these products to others. These people overlook Apple's disadvantages, rationalize lack of features, and justify paying premium price for lesser products. This hurts us as consumers. In many ways, which i will not explain now.

    2) It is clear to me that Apple bribes certain "journalists" and certain people to post in forums/sites/blogs as "users". Of course this practice is not specific to Apple, many big companies do PR in this way. But Apple has crossed the line.

    3) Apple is a closed ecosystem, unfriendly to developers like myself. And bad for the industry in general.

    4)Apple only cares about flash and no substance. It may drive the design barrier but makes people ask for less tech. Sites like Arstechnica reviewed recently the iPad and they had the nerve to say that lack of multitasking is a relief and it makes their lives easier, only to celebrate a few days later for the upcoming addition of multitasking as a great evolution of Apple software...

    5) I am a tech guy, and tech is all i care. I am no fanboi of a company, but i want the best product to win every time, in order to create competition and improve the tech overall. Apple's efforts hinder that.

  7. #7
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    Cool Patches accepted

    um, webkit2 ... Patches accepted. You can use named pipes on linux also (it would be different but stil IPC). There are many other IPC options, they just haven't gotten around to it. I think Chromium might be using them also, I haven't finished reading that link. I suspect Qt (Nokia) will quickly add Linux support and this will quickly become a trivial mannor.


    OR DID U READ THE ARTICLE?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TemplarGR View Post

    1) Apple is a purely marketing company. They have created a cult of followers who will not only buy anything on day 1 just because they have an apple logo, but will spam forums, blogs, IRC, IM web sites promoting these products to others. These people overlook Apple's disadvantages, rationalize lack of features, and justify paying premium price for lesser products. This hurts us as consumers. In many ways, which i will not explain now.
    That could be said about any OS including linux with the exception to the reverence about paying.
    2) It is clear to me that Apple bribes certain "journalists" and certain people to post in forums/sites/blogs as "users". Of course this practice is not specific to Apple, many big companies do PR in this way. But Apple has crossed the line.
    Bullshit. Anything those site that those journalists publish they do on their own accord.

    3) Apple is a closed ecosystem, unfriendly to developers like myself. And bad for the industry in general.
    Got any proof of that? developer.apple.com is full of developer friendly documentation, sample code and is kept up to date which is more then many opensource projects where "RTFM" ends giving you vastly outdated documentation if there is any.

    4)Apple only cares about flash and no substance. It may drive the design barrier but makes people ask for less tech. Sites like Arstechnica reviewed recently the iPad and they had the nerve to say that lack of multitasking is a relief and it makes their lives easier, only to celebrate a few days later for the upcoming addition of multitasking as a great evolution of Apple software...
    No the only thing that they care about ultimately is profit. That is no secret. How they achieve it is governed by the publics current wants and what is the most efficient way of providing that. If it means sacrificing a feature for the small percentage "power user" group then so be it.

    5) I am a tech guy, and tech is all i care. I am no fanboi of a company, but i want the best product to win every time, in order to create competition and improve the tech overall. Apple's efforts hinder that.
    How does Apples efforts "hinder" that? You are free to come up with a competing product that bests their effort.

  9. #9
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    Default I think you are missing a few points that would change your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by TemplarGR View Post
    In the past i simply didn't care about Apple. It wasn't my choice, i prefered Linux for my work and Windows for some games and i never considered Apple products because i couldn't work effectively on them, since i am no designer, and i couldn't play on them except specific titles.
    I was a long time Linux user on the desktop. However I've seen the light in Mac OS/X. that mostly due to the fact that some things jut need a more commercial bent to work well.
    But i have began to hate this company and actively trying to harm it recently. My reasons are not about fanboism, my reasons are purely logical.
    Actually your reasons are full of emotion and a lack of facts.

    1) Apple is a purely marketing company. They have created a cult of followers who will not only buy anything on day 1 just because they have an apple logo, but will spam forums, blogs, IRC, IM web sites promoting these products to others.
    Actually I agree with you here there are a lot of idiots that will do as you describe above. I don't think I fall into that category, rather I got a MBP after a lot of knocks in the open source / Linux world.
    These people overlook Apple's disadvantages, rationalize lack of features, and justify paying premium price for lesser products. This hurts us as consumers. In many ways, which i will not explain now.
    Disadvantages? What platform doesn't have a few? Seriously; besides the only features that matter are the ones you use. What is worst than having features you don't need or are half bakes for the marketing department.

    As to consumers Apple doesn't hurt anybody at all, they are the ONLY practical commercial choice versus a Microsoft based product. It isn't like I don't want Linux to succeed but they aren't getting the adoption rate by the average consumer to be considered an even remote player on the desktop. So what is it that you want zero choice for the consumer?


    2) It is clear to me that Apple bribes certain "journalists" and certain people to post in forums/sites/blogs as "users". Of course this practice is not specific to Apple, many big companies do PR in this way. But Apple has crossed the line.
    Where is your evidence? Apple innovates and people go gaga, is this a surprise? Does Apple put a lot of effort into marketing and hype, they certainly do and frankly have little choice considering the size of MicroSoft. In any event before you put into print allegations such as these you really need sound proof.

    3) Apple is a closed ecosystem, unfriendly to developers like myself. And bad for the industry in general.
    Now you sound like a MicroSoft employee. Considering the effort Apple has put into tools like GCC, LLVM, CLang, Ruby and others they could hardly be considered a closed ecosystem. That is just development tools, ask your self who supports CUPS and other things your Linux distro depends upon. I don't expect Apple to give away the keys to the castle but they support far more open source software than you seem to want to give them credit for.

    In the context of WebKit they have done an excellent job of moving a stagnate project forward in a dramatic manner. Not only have they moved it forward they increased adoption across a wide number of platforms to the point that it is now being reincorporated into Linux distros. Of course they didn't write the patches for Linux as it isn't their OS, but fortunately there is enough Linux side interest that WebKit is tracking very well there.

    Besides what could be better for Linux than a web browser kit that is highly compliant with standards and deployed on a wide variety of platforms? WebKit on Linux greatly increases the likely hood that linux browsers and other tools will be compatible with the wide variety of platforms that have adopted WebKit.

    4)Apple only cares about flash and no substance.
    Actually Apple hates flash

    OK so Apple is aggressive and verbose with its marketing, this is no big deal as you need that noise when your nearest competitor has 92% of the market. But to say they have no substance is simply ignorant and discounts the continual innovation coming out of Apple.
    It may drive the design barrier but makes people ask for less tech. Sites like Arstechnica reviewed recently the iPad and they had the nerve to say that lack of multitasking is a relief and it makes their lives easier, only to celebrate a few days later for the upcoming addition of multitasking as a great evolution of Apple software...
    Funny but you seem to mis the number one issue with iPad that almost all the tech sites have also glossed over, that is the lack of RAM on the damn thing. The fact is iPad isn't a platform for multitasking at all. It might work in some contexts but it is not going to be pleasant on a machine that has far less that 130 MB available for user programs. When it comes to the iPad multitasking is the least of my worries.
    5) I am a tech guy, and tech is all i care.
    I actually kind of doubt the above, because if it where true your opinion would be drastically different.
    I am no fanboi of a company, but i want the best product to win every time, in order to create competition and improve the tech overall. Apple's efforts hinder that.
    You really need to explain that one as everybody is in hot pursuit of Apples iPad right now. HP emulated many of their laptops down to the last millimeter. Further MS copies key elements of their OS. Lastly Google had a spy on the board and launched Android to compete with what Apple was building. so what has Apple hindered here, indeed they have done just the opposite and created an environment that encourages innovation to compete with them.

    In the context of iPad it is the first product to the market place but Apple has done some things there that will leave them open to aggressive competition. It would be easy now for the likes of HP or Google to come out with a more featured balanced products. Well hardware wise it would be but Android is still a long ways from competing with the Iphone user interface.

    In any event I really would like ot know what twisted bit of logic lead to those last couple of sentences?

    Dave

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugmenot View Post
    Apple used the code in just the way the authors intended. They chose not to use a copyleft license, thus calling Apple's behaviour "stealing" is just plain stupid.
    Actually, Webkit is just a fork of KDE's KHTML and KJS. Those parts and anything that are derived works of them are still licensed under the GPL or LGPL as needed.

    Apple does not have the right (as much as they'd like to) to steal code and relicense it however they want.

    The only parts of their KHTML fork that are licensed under a "we reserve the right to sue you" permissive licenses are the wrappers that they put around it to that they can use it without any dependencies on Qt. Their direct modifications to KJS and KHTML, while theoretically licensed under a permissive license on their own become licensed under the LGPL or the GPL as needed, including in Apple's own OS and the "Safari" web browser.

    Webkit is just a brand name that Apple tries to control even as they only make up less than half the contributions to it now that other companies such as Google and Nokia have become involved.

    As for the Webkit2 thing, it's just a layer that rides on top of Webkit. You don't "have" to use it, though nothing prevents other projects from doing so. Since It doesn't run its renderers in a sandbox like Chrome does, you have very little added security at this point. All it does mean is that you get:

    Extra overhead for running each renderer in its own process.

    This is mitigated by the fact that once a renderer is closed (when you close a tab), any memory it leaked is freed whereas earlier versions of Safari simply kept growing until you shut the browser down and restarted it. (Like Firefox does, although there aren't an insane amount of bona fide memory leaks there anymore. Most of what a user that doesn't know any better would call one can be reclaimed.They just hadn't bothered doing it until the memshrink project came about).

    So, so far the split rendering in Webkit2 is dubious. The one benefit it does give is that if something hangs a renderer, then that renderer can probably be shut down. This is provided that there's no security problems in the underlying Windows or OS X kernel that let it crash the system with one line of code in the page, or automatically download and run malicious software on Windows.

    It also wouldn't have stopped the Mac Defender malware that Apple refused to help users remove, or ilk.

    From what I saw, at least one variant of Mac Defender got Safari to download and execute it without user intervention. It is Apple though. They routinely leave critical flaws open for months or years.

    Webkit2 doesn't apply to Chrome or Chromium users because the split process model is integrated into the browser itself and has been for a few years. Webkit2's advantages are fairly weak compared to what Chrome and Chromium users have come to expect. Webkit2 can be regarded as Apple's impotent response to Chrome.
    Last edited by DaemonFC; 12-21-2011 at 03:42 PM.

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