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Thread: AMD FirePro V8800 2GB

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    No,thats wrong.
    Wine is not equal OpenGL!
    Wine is a translator between WinAPI(DLL) to POSIX, and DirectX to OpenGL.
    Translator will always work slower than native
    just NO! in my tests wine is faster! 244% faster @ zlib than windowsXP! on my PC! wine is faster on 3dmark2000 and 3dmark2001! wine can also be faster on WOW if you pc do not have more than 1 gb ram for exampel wine can also be faster on games like surprime comander because this game is cpu limitet not graphic limitet and linux does a better job by handle the KI of the units in this game!

    "and introduce bugs."

    thats wrong! wine can fix 'bugs' for exampel 3dmark2000 do not run on sp3 windowsXP! thats because microsoft chance something in the 'DirectX'

    most of the time wine do support windows98 game better than XP or vista or 7




    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    You see the difference?
    Native opengl app--->native opengl driver--->hardware.
    win32 dx app--->wine remap--->native opengl driver--->hardware.
    i fix this for you:
    Native opengl app--->native opengl driver--->hardware.
    win32 Native opengl app--->wine win32 remap to linux--->native opengl driver--->hardware.

    can you see it? your exampel is just stubit!




    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    For example take AlienArena or UrbanTerror - they dont require WINE, but require hardware opengl acceleration and graphic subsystem.
    another stubit exampel get CnC 1/2 or unreal1 this games run in software on the CPU no OpenGL-Bullshit and no DirectX bullshit is needet..





    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    So if you want windows gaming on linux(do not confuse with linux gaming on linux) and you dont care about opensource and admit running with bugs (did I mention you still need a copy of windows,eula, for some applications to be emulated?), and accept lower than windows performance(nvidia drivers perform slower in linux, wine drops perfomance further) - then your choice is nvidia. If you buy nvidia card you support writing of nvidia drivers, which in essence are windows drivers.
    be sure if more users use amd hardware for wine the bugs will fixed

    for exampel my bug report fix an very important wine-amd hardware bug!

    http://www.codeweavers.com/support/t...cket_id=780807

    be sure to buy a windows and a second hardware for windows is the worst to support opensource!

    spend money on linux hardware and spend money on wine support to fix the bugs is more smart and hit microsoft hard!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    I had two issues:
    - money, at least its 900 over my budget.
    - application point, I dont imagine where I can apply its performance in productive way.

    So, if I'd to purchase v8800, I'd be correctly amd fanboy(all ego, no brains). But if I'd had that possibility I would put foss drivers on it. That would be 1 against {NUM_FIREPRO_OWNERS}. A good starting point
    you dont get the point you can get the v8800 for the opensource driver thats because a hd5870vram2GB is the same card if you run the opensource driver!

    and a hd5870 is in your budget 300-500!

  3. #23
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    Look, I dont understand your point. Wine is NOT native, ok?
    Wine is windows on linux, not linux code on linux.
    If you want to tell me windows code is faster on linux, then you are deeply wrong.
    Binary blob->Remapping->Emulation->Native libs->Kernel/Hardware
    is supposed to faster than:
    Native code->Native libs->Kernel/Hardware

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    i fix this for you:
    Native opengl app--->native opengl driver--->hardware.
    win32 Native opengl app--->wine win32 remap to linux--->native opengl driver--->hardware.
    can you see it? your exampel is just stubit!
    What stupid? I dont see any "fix" here, sorry.
    You add remap to linux, thats what I have meant too.
    Remap is time consuming in any case, thats what I have meant too.


    We have three cases:
    1) Windows gaming: Win32 gaming code(the game)-->WinApi/DirectX--->NTKernel/Drivers--->Hardware
    2) Wine on Linux: Win32 gaming code(the game)-->Wine remaps in Winapi to POSIX/DirectX to OpenGL--->Linux Libraries/OpenGL--->LinuxKernel/Drivers(*)--->Hardware
    3) Linux gaming: Linux gaming code(the game)-->Linux Libraries/OpenGL--->LinuxKernel/Drivers--->Hardware
    * Note, that NVIDIA driver for linux, that you need for WINE is actually windows driver.
    As a result it performs SLOWER on linux when comparing same versions for two reasons:
    -it doesnt match linux architecture, but matches windows one.
    -nvidia has less interest in optimizing linux driver port. I know what Im talking about, I had used NVidia cards(6800,9800gt) since my first linux install.

    Assume (2) case, Linux Libraries and Linux Kernel perform 300% faster, you will still have HEAVY slowdown BEFORE the calls reach this libraries.
    What you want to tell me, case 2 is best.
    What I mean - case 3 is the only acceptable for linux future.
    This is why Im going to sell 9800gt. You are german, aint you? Well I can provide you the link to Ebay.de
    so you see for yourself that this is not fake, if you insist.


    I have no interest to troll with you. I have interest in linux(not windows, not windows gaming and not windows support by buying nvidia cards),

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    just NO! in my tests wine is faster! 244% faster @ zlib than windowsXP! on my PC! wine is faster on 3dmark2000 and 3dmark2001!
    Thats a rare case because zlib on linux performs vastly faster than on windows.
    Native zlib calls would vastly outperform those wine anyway.
    But zlib is 0.001% of what game engines call.
    How old is 3dMark? DirectX8? Take lastest benchmarks with DirectX10 vs Opengl3.2.

    Things that you tell are pointless, watch this: http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/201...rformance.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    wine can also be faster on WOW if you pc do not have more than 1 gb ram for exampel wine can also be faster on games like surprime comander because this game is cpu limitet not graphic limitet and linux does a better job by handle the KI of the units in this game!
    This is very rare case of windows game using Opengl libraries instead of DX. For this case, and since NVIDIA is windows driver, there is nearly zero slowdown for remap. But Nvidia driver is slower on linux anyway which leaves you with single reason: Linux kernel is more efficient than NT kernel. This is not something new.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    "and introduce bugs."
    thats wrong! wine can fix 'bugs' for exampel 3dmark2000 do not run on sp3 windowsXP! thats because microsoft chance something in the 'DirectX'

    most of the time wine do support windows98 game better than XP or vista or 7
    Yes I also like WINE for this - playing outdated very old games. This is not sarcastic, I love Blood2 for example.
    But if we are to take linux FUTURE, we should not try to play 2000 games in 2010 and be proud of it.

    Also, please do not mix "introduce bugs" which means porting windows bugs(incl viruses), windows code, windows EULA requirement, windows fonts to linux and making developers believe that their program runs on linux just because it runs in WINE. THIS IS VERY WRONG AND DANGEROUS.

    We should develop linux native graphics stack, which is only possible in opensource and the only two companies that support opensource is AMD and Intel. Intel currently has slow hardware, so my choice is AMD. But not NVidia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    another stubit exampel get CnC 1/2 or unreal1 this games run in software on the CPU no OpenGL-Bullshit and no DirectX bullshit is needet..
    CnC is old game case, that uses DirectDraw, not even Direct3D.
    This is very nice to be able to run it on linux via wine, without need for separate windows(you can proudly call WINE - "partial windows installation").
    But personally I do not want to do this because I will
    a) Need an NVIDIA card, which does not support opensource
    b)need to mix my linux box with windows dlls and wine "cocktail" of troubles.
    UT and UT2004 exist natively for linux(without WINE) and they perform FASTER than on windows.
    But Epicgames refuse to port UT3 to linux for whichever reasons they think out. I love AlienArena more anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    be sure if more users use amd hardware for wine the bugs will fixed
    I dont want WINE bugs to be fixed as priority N1. It is Priority 80 on my list.
    First priority is to have native opengl stack and do not be dependent from single manufacturer that refused to support last piece of opensource.
    Imagine NVIDIA stops porting drivers for linux. What then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    for exampel my bug report fix an very important wine-amd hardware bug!
    http://www.codeweavers.com/support/t...cket_id=780807
    be sure to buy a windows and a second hardware for windows is the worst to support opensource!
    spend money on linux hardware and spend money on wine support to fix the bugs is more smart and hit microsoft hard!
    YOU NEED WINDOWS LICENSE TO PLAY VAST AMOUNT OF GAMES ON WINE.
    The worst case to support opensource is to:
    a) Buy windows games and not linux native
    b) Buy hardware that does not care about opensource
    c) Use linux to run windows games, instead of buying linux games and linux hardware so LINUX games are published(AND NOT WINDOWS WINE-CAPABLE GAMES).

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    Look, I dont understand your point. Wine is NOT native, ok?
    wine is a nativ linux app! like Qemu Qemu is a nativ linux app to!


    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    Wine is windows on linux, not linux code on linux.
    If you want to tell me windows code is faster on linux, then you are deeply wrong.
    no im not wrong! i benchmark this! thats because i drop windowsXP and jump to linux!

    because linux get more speed on every little think i have benchmarked!
    i test my cpu limitet (windows)games linux is faster i test 7zip(windows version) linux is faster!

    3dmark2001 means dx8... thats means the windows Game 'Morrowind' is dx8 is faster on linux!
    2dmark2000 means dx7! thats means OFP(cpu limited) is dx7 and is faster on linux!
    OFP is one of my favourite games!

    why sould i use slow windows if i can use a fast linux?



    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    Binary blob->Remapping->Emulation->Native libs->Kernel/Hardware
    i fix this for you: Binary blob->wine-bugfixes->Remapping+shader compiler from dx8 to openGL3.2+->wine isn't a emulator cpu runs nativ and GPU does speed up by adding shader speed-up-hacks->much betetr Native libs->much faster linux-Kernel/Hardware

    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    is supposed to faster than:
    Native code->Native libs->Kernel/Hardware
    if the game isn't a nativ game YES! for exampel OFP and Morrowind you play it in wine or you don't play this games on linux!

    "You are german, aint you?" yes i'm German

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    wine is a nativ linux app! like Qemu Qemu is a nativ linux app to!
    Pff, and what do you use wine for? Native or just to run windows software on non-windows os?


    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    no im not wrong! i benchmark this! thats because i drop windowsXP and jump to linux!
    What software do you use on linux? Linux software? Can you live without wine? Why you buy card that only cares about wine? If windows becomes equal to linux - you switch to windows?

    Nvidia does not care about opensource.

    Read this three times please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    because linux get more speed on every little think i have benchmarked!
    i test my cpu limitet (windows)games linux is faster i test 7zip(windows version) linux is faster!
    Read my post again. And again. And again. And then try to use brain. Thanks.

    Linux is faster if it is linux.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    3dmark2001 means dx8... thats means the windows Game 'Morrowind' is dx8 is faster on linux!
    2dmark2000 means dx7! thats means OFP(cpu limited) is dx7 and is faster on linux!
    OFP is one of my favourite games!
    Then go wikipedia, go to morrowind and ofp article. Look what operating system it is released. Is it linux? No. Think. Now think again - if you continue buy nvidia card, that doesnt care about opensource linux and its technologies, what next game that comes from that studio be released for? Windows. Linux? No. You help linux? No. You support windows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    why sould i use slow windows if i can use a fast linux?
    Please use fast windows then. You buy windows games, you buy hardware that supports windows, you need windows license to use wine for any DX8+ games. Where is the difference?


    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    i fix this for you: Binary blob->wine-bugfixes->Remapping+shader compiler from dx8 to openGL3.2+->wine isn't a emulator cpu runs nativ and GPU does speed up by adding shader speed-up-hacks->much betetr Native libs->much faster linux-Kernel/Hardware
    Very bad fix, wont go upstream. Looks like slow windows mess. Lets split it.

    "Binary blob->" - runs only winPE, for systems its designed. Performance penalty for running it on non-native systems. Requires DRM or NoCD - will not run at all or high malware possibility(antivirus for linux? What are you doing with linux?). NoCD are released by publisher in a very very rare cases. 10%-2500% slowdown for this with infection possibility(user data corruption). Yes wine allows windows viruses to run. I already had one from nocd for the game I legally own.

    "wine-bugfixes->" - what bugfixes?? Wine emulates windows bugs 1:1. If wine does not behave like buggy windows, programs will stop working. Because many of them adapt buggy behaviour as "as is". Again: Wine is as buggy as windows - this is needed to windows software to work properly. This is not a joke. Or you mean wine fixes its own bugs? My keyboard issue was not fixed till now (0.8 - 1.41). On windows as host os this bug does not exist. On linux as host os this bug does not exist. It is wine bug, because wine tries to make linux to windows. This is hard and rarely smart.

    "Remapping+shader compiler from dx8 to openGL3.2+->" Wow, aside from being awesome job, you support directX. Why should publishers create dx AND opengl renderers for games. They just make directx and let you use wine. wine is windows. Thanks for your linux support! From 0%(speedup if game is opengl too, but nvidia drivers bring it to zero again, because they are slower on linux) to 2500%(heaviest case, see DeusEx:Invisible War for example) slowdown.

    "wine isn't a emulator cpu runs nativ and GPU does speed up by adding shader speed-up-hacks" Wine IS a emulator. Do not let codeweavers blind you. It emulates parts of code that are not present(emulation means reimplementing stuff, that does not exist with native tools) and remaps the rest. It isnt true emulation like bochs or dosbox, but it isnt clean remap with zero perfomance loss either. No single function runs faster on wine than on windows to my knowledge. The performance benefit you gain is from linux kernel alone and has NOTHING to do with wine. What shader speed-up-hacks? Proof link please. As well as proof they are not taken back into windows code, by slimy "windows explorers" from india(I love indian people except microsoft employees. Not without a reason.). Performance penalitys: 0.1% for clean remap to 2500% if no similar POSIX function available.
    ----
    Lets sum up.

    The performance loss for using windows appication on wine VS linux native application is from 10.1% to 7500%. From equal to 7 times slower. Unless you use Nvidia card, cause it will slow things down on linux, which can be compensated by linux kernel and library efficiency.

    Native games running under linux will tend to perform better (not worse) than the same game running natively under windows.

    If you compare perfomance of windows application running on windows to windows application running on linux via wine, you get anywhere between rare 50% gain and 2500% loss with possibility of wine bugs, malware(via nocd) and you need to put a lot of win garbage, have dlls in your system, have to buy windows license in many cases, have to buy windows games and not linux games, have to support company that does not care about opensource(nvidia).


    Non-native games running in wine under linux are a bit more likely to see performance loss, but it varies from game to game.
    "much betetr Native libs->much faster linux-Kernel/Hardware" How is this related to WINE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    if the game isn't a nativ game YES! for exampel OFP and Morrowind you play it in wine or you don't play this games on linux!
    Ask Bethesda Game Studios if you can play this game on linux. Do this! You cannot. And if you mention wine - they will ignore you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    "You are german, aint you?" yes i'm German
    Ok, then it is my last post to you. I wont respond, since I spend my time not trolling but learning. If things someone says are far from reality I dont want to waste time of both.

    You like to buy windows games, windows OS(for many components wine requires to you own copy of windows to accept EULA), hardware that does not care about opensource(nvidia) and uses windows driver on linux.
    You get by major extent slower gaming, with possibility to infect your linux box, lots of additional bugs(artifacts, keyboard bugs for me), you must insert a lot of windows stuff into your linux box, installation of games is much more complex, some games do not work, many online games do not work because they use classic way of windoze protection - punkbuster or other virii-like protection that missdetects linux for hack(Quake Live! being the only exception, but it is closed source, but free and native game; without wine requirement).

    I like to put only several windows games I own(I do not buy them anymore) on separated windows partition(I need only to buy windows once - only for that games). The games are easy to install and run as they should(for windows). I boot to windows once in a week only for little gaming.

    I do not mess my linux box - it runs clean and separated as my primary operating system. I do not put my data to infection risk. I do not install DRM stuff on linux. I do not put microsoft crap on linux. I support graphics card company that create NATIVE linux opengl drivers(and not like nvidia - remapping windows driver to linux). I buy linux games that were written for linux(Quake4, Doom3, Penumbra, Unreal2004). I play opensource linux games on linux (OpenArena, QuakeLive, Quake4, Warzone2100, UrbanTerror, AlienArena, Supertux, Supertuxkart, OpenTyrian, OpenTransportTycoon, Wesnoth) as well as having DosBox for fallout 1/2,dyna blaster, mortal kombat 1(best fighting ever) and xcom 1. Dont worry, not all at once , but one in a year.

    You notice the difference each of use contribute to linux gaming and its improvement? I do.

    I hope I answered your question in your first post pointed at me.

  6. #26
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    "No single function runs faster on wine than on windows to my knowledge."

    Ok, several things run faster on WINE than on windows, seems codeweavers program better than microsoft(nice work, cw!). But its under 20%, the rest runs slower to much more slower. And microsoft starts to check if its running under wine or windows and then refuse to run or produce stupid errors. I expected for this to happen, this is microsoft style.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    if you continue buy nvidia card
    LOL... be sure i'm one of the biggest AMD fanboy's in this hole forum!

    i do not have any nvidia card around here.... i'm nvidia free since 2007 "2007 amd do a press-release abaut making opensource drivers"

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    Ok, then it is my last post to you. I wont respond, since I spend my time not trolling but learning. If things someone says are far from reality I dont want to waste time of both.
    You are so smart and 1337 don't waste your time on me

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    You are so smart and 1337 don't waste your time on me
    No, Im not, I dont like trolling. If you use wine - fine. But I dont use wine for the reasons I have mentioned. I used it before, but stopped. Also, check this out: http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23355

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