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Thread: At This Rate, Don't Be Surprised If You See Steam Soon

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straximus View Post
    We all mostly just want to play some games and not be hassled.
    I apparently didn't understand the goal of that short list, but pirating is the only option you listed which achieves that for many who like to be in complete control of software, but you mentioned DRM-free too.

    Any way, it's this simple: companies, come up with a way to be nice to others and also make money. How?

    1. In places where there are copyright laws, and you want to "use" them even though I personally disagree with any of it, you should be offering assurances via EULA or license or whatever notification or contract you prefer that stipulate you will remove the DRM after a set time, or open source the software after a set time, whatever it takes to assure your restrictions will not be a problem for those who invest in your software.
    2. Please someone, since it's not going to be me (don't have the legal knowledge), like Steam or any other mass organization of commercial software developers, push bounty systems in combination with point (1). Get sign ups and commitments to donate/pay first as you release your ideas and updates on your development progress or whatnot, release a demo when you're close to finishing, and then take the payments and release the software as open source or whatnot.


    I very much believe that all software companies must move towards option 2 in the long run, as DRM is not an option, and sharing information will always be the norm, so if you're going to share an experience which takes a lot of effort, and you want to try the paid development route, some kind of bounty system is your only option, and that means you're going to need a good method of establishing trust while ensuring financial support at the same time. That is the future of software development in my opinion, aside from open source development which already heavily relies on bounty systems (aka paid development support) along with non-development support.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yfrwlf View Post
    I apparently didn't understand the goal of that short list, but pirating is the only option you listed which achieves that for many who like to be in complete control of software, but you mentioned DRM-free too.
    As I stated those are the "typical choice(s) for a modern AAA title(s)". I mentioned DRM-free in a different context - the only context it currently exists: older titles and indie titles.

    I don't disagree with your ideas. But I'm also not going to avoid or pirate blockbuster titles until they are adopted.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straximus View Post
    I'd like to add that I'm pretty sick of seeing you throw pejoratives out at people, especially when you can't even be bothered to understand what you just read before slinging them out. He was clearly contrasting Valve and Ubisoft's protection measures.

    Clearly, you have a hate-on for Steam. That's fine. No one *likes* DRM. But your typical choice for a modern AAA title goes something like this:
    1- Disc Check
    2- DRM
    3- Pirate

    Number 3 should be crossed off right out of the gate for obvious reasons.

    Some of us prefer #1, and implementations of #2 vary wildly. Both are a hassle, but they can both be circumvented in all their forms. At that point, everyone just chooses the protection measure they see as the least hassle out of the box. Throw in Steam's weekend deals and it's social gaming infrastructure on top of their very permissive DRM, and you've got one hell of a winner in my book. When DRM-free digital delivery is an option, I take it every time. But other than StarDock, the classics on GoG, and some Indie titles, no one is going that route.

    Some people see it differently, and prefer to exercise other options. That's fine. It's nothing to recommend a mental health professional over. We all mostly just want to play some games and not be hassled.
    The list is actually incorrect. It should be:
    1- Disc Check + angry customer + pirates
    2- DRM + angry customers + pirates
    3- happy customers + pirates

    All options include pirates not only the last one But with the last one you have happy and paying customers while with the others you have (more or less) angry customers. I see only 3 as the only solution in the future because pirates exist in all 3 solutions and therefore should not be used as the reason to drop one or the other.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straximus View Post
    As I stated those are the "typical choice(s) for a modern AAA title(s)". I mentioned DRM-free in a different context - the only context it currently exists: older titles and indie titles.

    I don't disagree with your ideas. But I'm also not going to avoid or pirate blockbuster titles until they are adopted.
    You mean until other business models are adopted? Okay, though piracy certainly helps push for the adoption of those other models along with irate customers at the DRM-laden models, lol. Don't get me wrong, while I strongly support sharing because I think it's the right thing to do and not something I'm going to fragment my morals on (if you're this poor, then you can share this amount of experience/information, etc), I do donate to paid development models sometimes especially for pro-Linux causes (have paid for / donated to some indy Linux games, and may purchase some of these games through Steam that are coming if I like them and am comfy enough with the restrictions, but ultimately I feel strongly that the software industry will have to turn into a commission-based system.

    #1: "Here's what I would like to see in a program."
    #2: "Oh, you'd like to see that too? So would I!"
    #1: "Lets get together then and either
    1. Create it.
    2. Pay for someone else to create it if we aren't developers ourselves.

    It's basically one of the several open source business models and I feel it's the one that needs to stand in for catering to those wanting new things, especially entertainment, but of course it can be for any type of program.

    Governments need to get themselves together and get together with other governments and pay for a group of developers to make the open source programs they need. Educational institutions (though they will be obsolete soon in the face of the digital age) should do the same, and any and all other organizations and individuals who have a need for software, period. Doing so will save trillions of dollars all over the world.

    I'm not surprised that Steam has become a bazaar for software, but we need more organizations like it which will instead start pushing open source business models. Ultimately those will be the ones that are successful once they gather enough steam (harhar) in comparison due to competing on the basis of freedom. No doubt the bigger more glamorous softwares will be more abusive than the smaller ones just as it is now with indy titles being DRM-less more often than the mega-titles as you pointed out, but competition will eventually shut that kind of unfriendly behavior up especially as they feel the heat from open source.

    Ideally in the future, businesses and individuals will be commissioned and it'll be a matter of grabbing a few open source blocks of code here and there, coating it in their own icing, and releasing it for a small fee, while the program itself will be awesome, but similar awesome programs will exist. It's the open source snowball effect. (though snow forming a bigger and bigger ball as it rolls down a hill is a complete myth any way)

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlord View Post
    The list is actually incorrect. It should be:
    1- Disc Check + angry customer + pirates
    2- DRM + angry customers + pirates
    3- happy customers + pirates
    No, my list is perfectly accurate. Mine is a list of options the customer has when choosing to acquire a triple A title. Yours is a list of options the publisher has when choosing how to distribute. If I had the luxury of choosing from your list, I would always choose option #3. But I don't get to choose how publishers distribute their titles. Publishers do. And they choose the first two options, leaving me to choose between them.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlord View Post
    Wine is BAD for Linux because it strengthens Windows as the OS. It's an emulator and that's the problem. It's not "native" application and therefore prone to all sorts of problems. Wine is NOT a solution for promoting Linux as a gaming system, it's the exact opposite.
    Actually there are some games that are no more compatible with the recent releases of Windows like Vista or 7, some even with XP, but are with "Platinum" state in winehq's db. Of course that games aren't so popular now as they were in some point in the past, but there's passengers for every plane. Just "ours" country-side is much smaller than the trans-continental one. Some titles should be preserved for future generations even just from historical standpoint.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlord
    Wine is BAD for Linux because it strengthens Windows as the OS. It's an emulator and that's the problem. It's not "native" application and therefore prone to all sorts of problems. Wine is NOT a solution for promoting Linux as a gaming system, it's the exact opposite.
    I'm one of those people who are fascinated by linux, but don't really use it. I have it installed on my AMD Phenom x4 machine, but I dual boot it with Windows 7, and I rarely use Ubuntu. I also have it on installed on my PowerBook G4, but mainly to keep it on life support. If it were an x86 laptop (which I plan on getting a new one soon), I'll probably just run Windows 7.

    The #1 reason I don't dump Windows for linux, is for games. Like it or not, the only reason I even considered running Linux was cause of Wine. When I mean games, I don't mean open source games neither. I'm talking about World of Warcraft, Crysis, and Mass Effect.

    The linux market is currently 1%, and you want to win game developers by forcing them to develop straight to linux? You'll have to get more people using linux first, and lots of people won't because of games.

    There's was some news about DX10/11 that'll run natively on Linux. Haven't heard anything about it since, but allowing Wine to use this will greatly increase the speed and compatibility of games. Once people find out that Linux can run commercial games just fine, they'll make the switch, and developers will as well.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    The #1 reason I don't dump Windows for linux, is for games. Like it or not, the only reason I even considered running Linux was cause of Wine. When I mean games, I don't mean open source games neither. I'm talking about World of Warcraft, Crysis, and Mass Effect.
    If all (or mostly) you do is play those kind of games on your computer then you are right in that it's better to just keep running windows. I also prefer to play games on a real SNES than go to the trouble of running emulators on my pc. If you only intended to use linux because of wine then it's obvious you wouldn't be using it much. Wine pretty much sucks. Users who choose linux have a very different and varied set of reasons to do so, but playing the current top selling games isn't one of them. It may be because it's more secure, malware/spyware/virus free, more customizable, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    The linux market is currently 1%
    No it's not. Recent studies show that it's probably more than apple's, if including android and the likes. That number (1%) is just what the big guys (MS and Apple) keep saying to try and make it go away, in the hopes that if they repeat a lie many times it will become true. Not that I care about linux having more users. I like the fact that hackers and malware authors are more interested on windows, thank you very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    There's was some news about DX10/11 that'll run natively on Linux. Haven't heard anything about it since, but allowing Wine to use this will greatly increase the speed and compatibility of games.
    The Wine devs already said they aren't interested in doing that.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yfrwlf View Post
    If one or some developers do create a program for the Windows API and make sure Wine can run it, like how they do now with many games for Mac like Spore for example, as a method of targeting all platforms, so be it, because especially if you bundle Wine WITH the program, it will always be able to run that program. After Linux gets bigger because of the added feature of being able to run some Windows games, that will help developers target Linux APIs directly instead, and they will still want to support true cross-platform APIs and efforts regardless, as targeting the Windows API isn't the best choice for many reasons still.
    So in summary:
    - Wine is (not) an emulator
    - Native Steam for Linux is good for Winelib, because someone like Valve can get game devs to recompile with winelib if it means a few more sales.
    - Winelib is like the JVM - there are plenty of apps (especially in the corporate world) that are bundled with their own Java package.
    - DRM and closed-source stuff sucks, but some people want it on their open platforms

    Personally I'd like to see game devs target VirtualBox as a platform, rather than Windows (ie. you "boot" straight into a game). It'd make PCs more like consoles (or take them back to the days of DOS games), and solve all sorts of compatibility issues. The technology to virtualise the video and audio acceleration for the VM isn't quite there yet though...

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by devius View Post
    If all (or mostly) you do is play those kind of games on your computer then you are right in that it's better to just keep running windows.
    I doubt there are many people who just use a computer (or mostly), to play games. I myself use it for multiple functionality. The way I see it, if running Linux loses functionality, then it isn't a replacement for Windows. It really depends on what tasks you do with your PC.

    Lets see my list.

    #1 I browse the web, and there's FireFox. CHECK
    #2 I like to watch videos, and there's VLC. CHECK
    #3 I use my PC as a media center, and there's MythTV. CHECK
    #4 I do type documents, and that's handled with Open Office. Check
    #5 I like to edit photos with Photoshop... I haven't tested that with Wine.
    #6 I do enjoy my PC gaming, the games work right? FAIL

    If you only intended to use linux because of wine then it's obvious you wouldn't be using it much. Wine pretty much sucks. Users who choose linux have a very different and varied set of reasons to do so, but playing the current top selling games isn't one of them. It may be because it's more secure, malware/spyware/virus free, more customizable, etc.
    Gaming is just one aspect of owning a PC. You may not play games, but a lot of people do. Mac OS X is a secure, malware/spyware/virus free OS, but you don't see people going crazy to install it. Hackintosh or not, Mac lacks games as well, and you don't see people rushing out to replace Windows.

    Though, I can guarantee you that people would love to replace Windows with Linux, cause it does have lots of advantages.

    It boots quicker
    Support for more hardware
    Customizable
    Secure
    FREE!
    Compiz, which you have to admit it's awesome.
    Repository
    No need for Anti-Virus

    Yet, a lot like Windows 7, people won't switch because they want their applications working on it. Applications can include games.
    That number (1%) is just what the big guys (MS and Apple) keep saying to try and make it go away, in the hopes that if they repeat a lie many times it will become true. Not that I care about linux having more users. I like the fact that hackers and malware authors are more interested on windows, thank you very much.
    I don't... So you're saying that 1% isn't accurate, but you don't mind not having more Windows users switching, cause they'll ruin your Linux.

    I don't get it.
    The Wine devs already said they aren't interested in doing that.
    What are they doing?

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