More Details On The OpenGL Situation In KDE's KWin

[nanonyme]

OIN is apparently one such instance trying to collect patents so they don't harm open-source development, btw.

[liam]

Compositing has been available for pretty much all window managers since xcompmgr. This is nothing new.

However, any desktop effects related to compositing -- and this includes not only wobbly windows and similar eye-candy, but also proper thumbnails, previews, tiling, exposee, smooth minimize animations, and similar stuff -- needs to be supported by the window manager itself.

This sort of stuff will be a part of Mutter, when it's out, just like it's been a part of Compiz and KWin for many years now.

Animations are a different story since you need a decent animation library (G3 will be getting this via Tweener, IIRC), but metacity has included a minimize effect for awhile now. I'm assuming by thumbnails you are referring to the panel preview windows? That is something metacity has yet to add. Tiling is brand new to KWin, and the rest its had for about 3 years.
I;m not really sure what the point of this is, however.

[kraftman]

..now you must give him your email address http://www.neary-consulting.com/inde.../gnome-census/
Regarding the KDE commiters, it is an interesting discussion to have. I haven't been able to find solid figures as to who actually contributes to the project. I assume it is mostly volunteers (basically the exact opposite of the Gnome profile).

Thanks. Regarding KDE I've found only this:

http://dot.kde.org/2009/07/14/growth...e-contributors
http://www.kde.org/announcements/gfresponse.php (quite old, but describes how KDE development works)

Lastly metacity, for me, has defaulted to compositing for the last 4 or 5 releases, and changing that is easy, especially for one used to KDE Metacity uses the compositing to increase usability exclusively (hence no wobbly wins), and Mutter requires this feature as well even though it too uses no bling. Regardless, they both use compositing, and, fundamentally, are no different than KWin/Compiz... except they work

I had composition enabled in Ubuntu, but I thought it's a compiz. On Fedora I didn't have compositions. However, good to know, because windows are more responsive when I have compositions enabled. :>

[curaga]

Even if it can't be in mesa master, how bout a go-mesa fork hosted in a suitable country?

[whizse]

Even if it can't be in mesa master, how bout a go-mesa fork hosted in a suitable country?

I'm pretty sure that's not gonna change anything.

Word on IRC was that RH was okay with a configure switch at build time for the patented stuff, similar to how freetype used to handle things. We'll see what the discussion during XDS leads to.

[liam]

Thanks. Regarding KDE I've found only these links
http://dot.kde.org/2009/07/14/growth...e-contributors
http://www.kde.org/announcements/gfresponse.php (quite old, but describes how KDE development works)



I had composition enabled in Ubuntu, but I thought it's a compiz. On Fedora I didn't have compositions. However, good to know, because windows are more responsive when I have compositions enabled. :>

You found the exact links that I had already read, but thanks for the effort Neither told me much about the contributor profiles, and the second link said at least one thing that I think, even at that time, was completely wrong (that most contributors of both projects do it b/c they enjoy it - implying volunteer).

Lucid is the first time I've regularly used Ubuntu for awhile, and here compositing DOES default to compiz (and it is slow - click on menu and, for me, there is a very apparent lag), but you can enable metacity by running "metacity --replace --composite". The menu lag goes away and you have compositing with a few effects (clicking on an app icon in the panel causes the icon to enlarge and become transparent very rapidly, minimize effects, etc). However, if you want a tear free window moving experience use mutter

Best/Liam

[whizse]

You found the exact links that I had already read, but thanks for the effort Neither told me much about the contributor profiles, and the second link said at least one thing that I think, even at that time, was completely wrong (that most contributors of both projects do it b/c they enjoy it - implying volunteer).

Lucid is the first time I've regularly used Ubuntu for awhile, and here compositing DOES default to compiz (and it is slow - click on menu and, for me, there is a very apparent lag), but you can enable metacity by running "metacity --replace --composite". The menu lag goes away and you have compositing with a few effects (clicking on an app icon in the panel causes the icon to enlarge and become transparent very rapidly, minimize effects, etc). However, if you want a tear free window moving experience use mutter

Best/Liam

Keep in mind that compositing isn't the same as using OpenGL. Metacity uses Xrender for compositing Compiz uses OpenGL (but I think there's an Xrender backend now too?).

Mutter is also using OpenGL, but keep in mind that it was never intended to be used as a stand-alone window manager, it's designed to be a part of one (e.g. gnome-shell).

[liam]

Keep in mind that compositing isn't the same as using OpenGL. Metacity uses Xrender for compositing Compiz uses OpenGL (but I think there's an Xrender backend now too?).

Mutter is also using OpenGL, but keep in mind that it was never intended to be used as a stand-alone window manager, it's designed to be a part of one (e.g. gnome-shell).

Although I didn't claim otherwise, that is a good point to make.
As for Mutter, you've got it backwards, I believe. Gnome-Shell is actually an extension of Mutter. Mutter works perfectly fine alone. In fact, as I've said before, it's the only WM I've used that is tear-free. Also, Ubuntu is using Mutter in their maverick netbook release (called Unity).

[whizse]

Although I didn't claim otherwise, that is a good point to make.
As for Mutter, you've got it backwards, I believe. Gnome-Shell is actually an extension of Mutter. Mutter works perfectly fine alone. In fact, as I've said before, it's the only WM I've used that is tear-free. Also, Ubuntu is using Mutter in their maverick netbook release (called Unity).

My explanation might have been more confusing than clear, but Mutter is designed to be driven by plugins - not as a straight replacement for Metacity.

It can be used as such, more or less, but bug reports and feature requests for anyone using it that way have been shot down pretty quick.

[liam]

My explanation might have been more confusing than clear, but Mutter is designed to be driven by plugins - not as a straight replacement for Metacity.

It can be used as such, more or less, but bug reports and feature requests for anyone using it that way have been shot down pretty quick.

I think you mean Gnome Shell? G-S is a plugin of mutter. Ditto for LG, IIRC. Mutter started life as a "port" of metacity, as I understand it, to Clutter. I haven't noticed much in the way of bugs against mutter in particular (more about build errors and behavior), but what you say could very well be true, though surprising, since mutter should (and for me has) work fine without the G-S plugin being enabled. Of course, mutter is, and has been for awhile, the main component of the Shell, and is intended to do more than metacity, but it is still, at its core, metacity in clutter.