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Thread: More Details On The OpenGL Situation In KDE's KWin

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bridgman View Post
    Most of the Xorg/Mesa developers are volunteers as well.
    And I also hate it when they get shat on by unthankful gimme-gimme-gimme users too.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfx. View Post
    that's the thing - _currently overall situation is not that messy as he writes_, currently his situation is that messy because he using obsolete graphic stack.
    Unfortunately, the vast majority of Linux users are using an obsolete graphics stack, and they want to run KWin, and will complain that KWin is broken if he doesn't blacklist things that don't work.

    I have said it before that more communication would have resolved some of the issues. The dev seems to agree, and we can hope that things work better in the future. But the guy is a volunteer hacker, stop banging on him ffs.

    If you don't like it, submit a fucking patch.

  3. #33
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    Well, the way I see it is that simply put: that Kwin developper does not _require_ blobs or anythinh else, just shadowfb, and that he does his code against the spec and that FLOSS drivers, no matter how you look at it, are simple _broken_.

    Now I know you, including, do not like that, but let's face it; Mesa is shipping with lying drivers.

    A sane solution would be to ship stable Mesa versions with drivers that advertise only their correct functionality, and the development releases with advertising that which is needed to get games running so people can report bugs and start hacking at it.

    Seriously... Mesa is simply broken so face the truth; if you ship drivers that lie; accept that the FLOSS drivers are Not Up To It Yet(tm).

    I liked playing Tomb Raider Anniversary with some tiny rare artifacts, but the dektop is ten times more important to me.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TemplarGR View Post
    As for the fact that he is a volunteer, this is rather bad for KDE in general.
    No, it's really GOOD for KDE in general. KDE has always been a community effort, and it has NEVER been a corporate product. Some things are simply different when the development model is open and community based, sometimes it can be a pain in the behind, but on the general, the good outweighs the bad, which is why I'm still using Linux and not something else.

    They've been churning out quality desktops for almost 15 years now. That's exactly the way things should be.

    It's just that the users need to see themselves as a part of a community instead of seeing themselves as customers who have a RIGHT (!!!!!) to get free stuff without bugs.

    So you want to tell me that KDE tries to "innovate the desktop" using only a small number of volunteer devs
    No, they innovate the desktop using a LARGE number of volunteer devs. They've been doing it since 1996, and doing it really well.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    No, we couldn't. KWin disables stuff with Mesa drivers; we never get to see it so we can report it..
    Sure you can. You can disable the checks.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
    Unfortunately, the vast majority of Linux users are using an obsolete graphics stack, and they want to run KWin, and will complain that KWin is broken if he doesn't blacklist things that don't work.
    I don't want to criticise the Kwin developer for (gasp) volunteering his work and coding the window manager I use. Neither can I tell him to go build damn mesa and a new kernel. However, there's something that doesn't make much sense to me here: stable Linux distributions such as the one he's using will never get the KDE versions being developed now. He is coding stuff that will only be released in...2 years time, relying on the graphics capabilities of...2 years ago. Again, I won't demand anything from his free time, but given the reality of the graphics stack development, this sounds really wrong.

  7. #37
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    You can disable the checks with the checkbox option listed in a tab in the dektop effects section of the System Settings app in KDE SC..

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by yotambien View Post
    I don't want to criticise the Kwin developer for (gasp) volunteering his work and coding the window manager I use. Neither can I tell him to go build damn mesa and a new kernel. However, there's something that doesn't make much sense to me here: stable Linux distributions such as the one he's using will never get the KDE versions being developed now. He is coding stuff that will only be released in...2 years time, relying on the graphics capabilities of...2 years ago. Again, I won't demand anything from his free time, but given the reality of the graphics stack development, this sounds really wrong.
    I can't speak for everyone running Linux, but I have always upgraded to the latest KDE version offered by my distro (whether Debian, RedHat, SuSE or Gentoo), and I know plenty of people who do so. And the stuff that seems to be controversial (blur plugin) has been released for a long time already.

    For most people, upgrading to a stable KDE version is much less scary than upgrading the driver stack (including the kernel) to a git snapshot.

    I do agree though that Debian often provides outdated drivers and such.

  9. #39
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    Most KDE fanbois don't get it and never will.

    I am not against volunteer work and i am not bashing anyone for contributing in his spare time.

    But just because someone offers me freely a pile of junk, doesn't mean i have to use it, or not criticize it...

    When you expect users to use your project, you have to respect them and not make them suffer because you offered it for free.

    KDE advertises itself as a mature DE intended for everyone. So it is open for criticism when it gets stuff wrong.

    So what happens when a new user decides to finally give Linux a try and uses KDE? When things begin to segmentfault on him and desktop begins to crash, he will decide Linux is broken and move to Windows again. In effect, KDE's unstability gives Linux a bad name, and this is something that concerns all os us, KDE users or not...

    So enough of justifying poor development practice just because we are fanbois of a project.

    KDE devs were wrong, and let's hope they will change their practices in the future...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TemplarGR View Post
    So what happens when a new user decides to finally give Linux a try and uses KDE? When things begin to segmentfault on him and desktop begins to crash, he will decide Linux is broken and move to Windows again. In effect, KDE's unstability gives Linux a bad name, and this is something that concerns all os us, KDE users or not...
    I have yet to see this happen. More FUD.

    None of the stuff discussed here can make your desktop segfault. In fact, they even blacklist drivers so this is not possible.

    KDE has had some stability problems during 4.0 and 4.1. That's because of a huge update of all core technologies. GNOME is still running on much older software. Wait till the GNOME 3 transition, it will be a riot.

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