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Thread: Talking About EGL In Mesa On Linux

  1. #21
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    Ah OK. So it seems like the OS 'market' seems to move towards all the Khoronis API's to unify, abstract, simplify, empower and standardise a lot of things. It's taking the entire media space hostage (and I like it).

    Then Gallium3D is more or less making the graphics drivers FLOSS OS-independant, although on Linux it realy hooks into the system, but OK.

    I don't know where all that manpower needs to come from but all this standardisation, coupled with Java for embedded, might as well take over, where there is starting to be a common OS specification (POSIX dejavu) and it everythings blurred.

    I like where this is going! We're on the verge of a post-Windows monopoly, or so it seems

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanonyme View Post
    Imo "not having to learn gazillion platform-dependent API's" is easier but whatever.
    Besides, everyone already used GLUT for interacting with the underlying system with OpenGL. I personally see that OpenVG and the interaction as a bigger thing in EGL than just having yet another platform-independent abstraction for OpenGL|ES.
    The GLUT API sucks. It's a toy app used to teach OpenGL but it's not really used outside that. In fact, I don't know a single non-trivial app that uses GLUT (media players, games, whatever).

    OpenVG will become interesting once it becomes hardware accelerated. Without that, SVG will eat it for lunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by V!NCENT
    I like where this is going! We're on the verge of a post-Windows monopoly, or so it seems
    Well, it's not really a monopoly considering that (a) Khronos only publishes specs, not implementations and (b) Khronos is an industry consortium of pretty much everyone sans Microsoft.

    The world is rapidly moving towards web-based platforms (gmail, facebook, ...) and non-Windows, closed-wall garden ecosystems. Microsoft won't be left behind if it manages to become agile enough (they will need rapid IE releases and a strong WinMo7 release for that) but they'll likely decrease in importance as time goes by. They will remain strong in the business and gaming segments for the foreseeable future, however.

    Linux use will not increase in the desktop. We are facing in the same position as Opera: not enough marketing, "good enough" alternatives and lack of a "killer app/feature". The mobile/smartphone market will probably be divided between Apple, Android and Microsoft, with the rest making up a not-insignificant 20% or so.

  3. #23
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    Out of curiosity: can you use EGL on Windows? Portability in that direction too tends to be nice.

  4. #24
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    @BlackStar,
    When I said Windows-monopoly I didn't mean Khronos-monopoly

  5. #25
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    @V!NCENT:

    Exactly as others have said: to change out the platform specific bits.

    So, the consensus seems to be what? Why is no one seemingly doing this? As has been said, this gives you the contextual awareness for the OGL along with cheap access to the rest of their graphic APIs. I'm wondering how complete the EGL spec really is. Has anyone read it? Since Kristian is working with it I assume it must have some utility, but perhaps he isn't concerned that it currently isn't rich enough for complete replacement (he mayeb assuming that by the time Mesa has integrated EGL it will be revised and more complete?)?

    Best/Liam

  6. #26
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    Default OK, I'm an AMERICAN dammit!

    Quote Originally Posted by yotambien View Post
    That depends on a number of things, but two of them are particularly important: your native language and the king of foreign language education you received. In the same way that it's relatively easy for an italian to learn spanish or portuguese, it's probably easier for, say, dutch people to learn english. Spanish has a grand total of 5 vocalic sounds, whereas english may have more than 20 depending on the accent. Learning to use such a complex musical instrument as your voice in completely new ways when you are no longer a kid isn't at all easy. Of course, it goes both ways, native english speakers usually have a hard time learning romance languages, although their set of problems include having to face a more rigid and complex grammar than their own.

    As for the education, I remember doing basically grammar, vocabulary, reading and writing. Listening and speaking was almost absent, and in any case none of our teachers were native speakers. You can see now why a lot of people have a much higher command in reading and writing than in listening and speaking. But other factors count as well. If you are from a country with a language spoken by millions and millions, there's some lazyness towards learning that of others (english speaking people are the perfect example here), so movies get dubbed, absolutely everything is translated and in general there's some stupid sense of proudness and resistance to anything foreign. That certain nationalist movements across europe are, as of 2010, pushing in this same direction, is astonishing (but I'll stop with politics here : ).
    we really don't care for this...CONTINENTAL...liberalism. Everyone knows ENGLISH is the pre-Babel tongue. WE WILL UNITE THE WORLD!

    Seriously, prior to college I had exactly one 9 week course of Spanish (in 7th grade...), and 2 years of French in high school. College (University for you Brits) required another 4 semesters. Compared to, say, Japan, this is pathetic (although I can't find a link, I recall my gf telling me that they started in elementary school). English, is a very rich language, grammatically, but also very informal which makes it very hard to learn these extremely rigid languages (Latin being the nastiest I've been exposed to).
    Regarding subtitles: I don't always notice them. Similar to V!NCENT, I sometimes find myself watching something, and later notice that it's in a foreign language and I had been reading the subs. Once you get used to reading them, it really isn't too disruptive (obviously, though, it is better to not have to read them in order to get the true experience).
    Anyway, you europeans are lucky. A second language is actually stressed during your education, and once you've learned more than one language, learning others becomes much easier (though not easy, of course).

    BTW, to the person who said we should unify our mobile platform under Java... to the pit with your idea! Java is the devil, and Dalvik the anti-christ come to tempt us with promises of both speed and ease. DON'T LISTEN!!!
    I'm familiar with the well known debian site language comparison, but in the real world I've never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever used a Java program that wasn't vastly (meaning extremely noticable ~ x2 or so) slower than another, similar program. It is my belief that a large part of the battery eating problem with Android is due to that damned VM.

    Best/Liam

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by liam View Post
    ...I'm familiar with the well known debian site language comparison, but in the real world I've never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever used a Java program that wasn't vastly (meaning extremely noticable ~ x2 or so) slower than another, similar program. It is my belief that a large part of the battery eating problem with Android is due to that damned VM.

    Best/Liam
    Look at benchmarks, read some scientific papers or ask some experts. Java's overhead isn't that big if the program is written right. Most of the Java program's are not.

  8. #28
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    Default As I said, I looked at benchmarks

    Quote Originally Posted by MaestroMaus View Post
    Look at benchmarks, read some scientific papers or ask some experts. Java's overhead isn't that big if the program is written right. Most of the Java program's are not.
    What I said was that I have never come across a Java app that didn't act like treacle.
    I didn't say it wasn 't possible. Now, I am guessing that since it is possible that these applications can be a bit more nimble, but aren't, then it must not be trivial to write such apps.
    I really don't see the point in pushing it, nowadays. The build systems are sophisticated enough that we can store all the applications in some repo and build them to the emulated platform. You might lose managed memory, but not necessarily.
    Regardless, something is wrong if Java benchmarks so well, but when it comes to building an application, something like Python is vastly more nimble.
    I wonder if part of the problem lies with the Java graphics kit (is it still Swing?). Not being able to hook into the platform toolkit has got to be problematic, aside from the aesthetics.

  9. #29
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    The world is rapidly moving towards web-based platforms (gmail, facebook, ...) and non-Windows, closed-wall garden ecosystems.
    Those two statements are diametrically opposed.

    Don't be fooled by the explosion of mobile applications. It's a accident of history that populist smartphone explosion happened while phones were still to shit to run web apps correctly and the networks were to shit to support it.

    Android is now outselling iPhones heavily despite the release of the iPhone 4 and will surpass the install base for iOS within a couple years. RIM is next. Android is about as 'un-walled-garden' as you can possibly get and Android users typically use the web a lot more then their on other smartphone platforms...

    It's just a matter of time before people stop really purchasing apps from app store except for some types of apps that are already freely available. They'll just move to web-based everything like people already mostly do on their PCs.

    Android is least 'walled garden' as you can possibly get on a smartphone and it's now benefiting hugely from that.

    Microsoft won't be left behind if it manages to become agile enough (they will need rapid IE releases and a strong WinMo7 release for that) but they'll likely decrease in importance as time goes by. They will remain strong in the business and gaming segments for the foreseeable future, however.
    In the consumer 'smartphone' space it's going to be difficult for them to get less important then Microsoft is now.

    Their main advantage for Windows Phone 7 is that WinMo devices are so worthless that they are essentially starting from scratch again and may have a chance to do it right. Which they won't, hopefully. WinPhone 7 is going to take at least 2 years to catch up to were Android and iOS is now in terms of sophistication and Android development continues to be rapid.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by drag View Post
    Those two statements are diametrically opposed.
    No, not really. You can have web apps on closed-wall gardens, too.

    Android is least 'walled garden' as you can possibly get on a smartphone and it's now benefiting hugely from that.
    Not for long. Phone makers are increasingly starting to lock down Android (you can't really have a commercial app store on an unlocked phone, can you?) There are Android phones with hardware locks against tampering now. The writing is on the wall.

    Their main advantage for Windows Phone 7 is that WinMo devices are so worthless that they are essentially starting from scratch again and may have a chance to do it right. Which they won't, hopefully. WinPhone 7 is going to take at least 2 years to catch up to were Android and iOS is now in terms of sophistication and Android development continues to be rapid.
    WinMo7 has the best development tools bar none. There's no comparison. Plus the Windows + Xbox + Zune/WinMo7 synergy is too big for developers to ignore.

    I don't know if it will ever become the dominant platform, but unlike WinMo6- it may actually stand a chance. Unfortunately.

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