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Thread: To the AMD people: Money wasted.

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  1. #1
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    Default To the AMD people: Money wasted.

    To any AMD graphics driver people:

    Hello.

    I am a linux user and the not so proud owner of an Asus HD5750.

    Niether nvidia not ati has fully supported the FOSS drivers - a driver that provides the much needed KMS and is in sync with the rest of Linux development. ATI has provided some support and for this I thank you.

    Now, Mr Brigman or any other person in connection with AMD, I paid good money for my card(s) and you as a company have stated that you provide support for Linux - a promise. While Nvidia does not support the open
    source work, at least it provides a working proprietary driver - something you do not.

    - 2D is horrible with tearing everywhere - my Nvidia card does not tear while doing anything.
    - Videos are not watchable because of tearing - my Nvidia card is playing all my movies without tearing and without any glitches.
    - Gaming in WINE is not a possibility because everything crashes at startup - not on my Nvidia. Though some say it is the WINE devs fault, were ATI to provide more info I am sure the WINE devs would get it right.
    - Were you to collaborate more with the Linux devs, there would be no gap in which we have to wait and wait for driver support of some new XOrg update.

    Not preaching, but the bible saying regarding religious leaders, that they niether enter the gates of heaven not let those going in to enter, is fully applicable here as you niether provide us with a
    proper proprietary driver nor do you give the FOSS devs the kind of support to provide us with a proper FOSS driver.

    Regarding the FOSS driver, you provide bits of documentation with some patches, put a dev or two to work on the driver a bit, then abandon the driver halfway to work on support for another card. The result
    as the radeon feature matrix shows is 20 cards all incomplete, and all with limping experimental 3D (read "no good for games"). What the hell kind of support is that? You get us worked up about how the *next* (it's always
    the *next* isn't it) card will have great support because you started working on it several months in advance. Guess what? The result will be the same as the other cards: semi-working, tearing, and with no 3D. And then you'll
    talk about great support with the *next* card.

    When you guys said "we provide Linux driver support", that was a promise you have yet to keep. When exactly can I expect a *FULLY* working FOSS or proprietary driver that does what I bought the card for in the first place?

    I had already bought my ATI card (as I respected AMD during my Windows experience) when I came to Linux. Had I known I would be forever masturbating with the ATI cards, I would have gotten laid with an Nvidia card.

    I, as most all, really hate buying something and not getting my money's worth.

    Thank you.

  2. #2
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    With respect, you are criticizing us for failing to live up to commitments we never made. I don't have time to go through your entire list, but as an example :

    You get us worked up about how the *next* (it's always the *next* isn't it) card will have great support because you started working on it several months in advance. Guess what? The result will be the same as the other cards: semi-working, tearing, and with no 3D. And then you'll talk about great support with the *next* card.
    What we claim (and I say this with great confidence because I was the one making the claim) was that support for the next generation would happen *sooner* (relative to hardware launch) as a result of starting work on it earlier, not that it would be "great" or even "better" (other than allowing more time for the community to work on the code). If you follow my posts, you'll know that what I talk about for initial support is delivering the *same* level of functionality on new cards as on previous cards.

    When you say "tearing, no 3D" can you be a bit more specific ? All of the currently shipping GPUs include 3D support (except for the just-released HD6xxx parts which are not supported yet) and AFAIK the tearing concerns are with the proprietary driver under certain scenarios, not the open source driver.

    You have to admit that your characterization of our open source efforts is unfair at best:

    Regarding the FOSS driver, you provide bits of documentation with some patches, put a dev or two to work on the driver a bit, then abandon the driver halfway to work on support for another card.
    We work with the community to make initial support available (working code and/or docs) and the open source community does most of the enhancement work. We were told multiple times "just give us programming information and the community will do the rest" - we are doing that and more.

    The radeon feature matrix is community maintained. Right now nobody agrees on the exact criteria for moving from "mostly" to "done", so the last few generations of hardware are sitting in "mostly". I guess I could launch a community initiative to redefine the criteria on the feature page but it really doesn't seem like the best use of time to me.

    Are there specific Linux games you are having trouble with, or are your issues mostly related to running Windows games over Wine (which brings another set of challenges) ?

  3. #3
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    Thank you for replying so fast Mr Bridgman.

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgman View Post
    With respect, you are criticizing us for failing to live up to commitments we never made.
    When you sell me a device with an official driver for a platform, logically that implies that the device will perform as advertised on the platform targeted by the driver. That is a commitment. Unless of course you are cheating me, and fooling me into buying something that does not work because a card is useless without the driver.
    The act of providing an official driver is a commitment.

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgman View Post
    What we claim (and I say this with great confidence because I was the one making the claim) was that support for the next generation would happen *sooner* (relative to hardware launch) as a result of starting work on it earlier, not that it would be "great" or even "better" (other than allowing more time for the community to work on the code). If you follow my posts, you'll know that what I talk about for initial support is delivering the *same* level of functionality on new cards as on previous cards.
    Really? So working drivers is not the plan but more semi support for yet another card. So am I to buy a more powerful and expensive card that does nothing more than a 5 year older card does as the drivers are semi functional?

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgman View Post
    When you say "tearing, no 3D" can you be a bit more specific ? All of the currently shipping GPUs include 3D support (except for the just-released HD6xxx parts which are not supported yet) and AFAIK the tearing concerns are with the proprietary driver under certain scenarios, not the open source driver.
    Puleeez, As a Linux dev you know that the only way to play any games that matter is through wine and thus yes, I am talking about 3D in wine and the tearing is in ALL scenarios - or am I missing a scenario other than 2D window movement and video playback? Please enlighten me as to the scenario in which there is no tearing.

    Wine gaming is the only way to seriously game as any game that actually matters is run through wine. Therefore if wine does not run, 3D for me the consumer does not exist - or am I to spend many an hour staring in awe at a 3D cube. For all intents and purposes, WINE IS 3D on Linux.

    Linux users have been feeding on scraps for long enough. Linux users are sick of begging for equal treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgman View Post
    We work with the community to make initial support available (working code and/or docs) and the open source community does most of the enhancement work. We were told multiple times "just give us programming information and the community will do the rest" - we are doing that and more.
    And that excuses you from providing a working proprietary driver how? Not being able to direct the FOSS development has nothing to do with your own (AMD's) work.

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgman View Post
    The radeon feature matrix is community maintained. Right now nobody agrees on the exact criteria for moving from "mostly" to "done", so the last few generations of hardware are sitting in "mostly". I guess I could launch a community initiative to redefine the criteria on the feature page but it really doesn't seem like the best use of time to me.
    Changing the label does not effect the true status. Right now, the drivers are not complete as I have tried them my self. "Mostly" truly is a better description.

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgman View Post
    Are there specific Linux games you are having trouble with, or are your issues mostly related to running Windows games over Wine (which brings another set of challenges) ?
    As stated previously, of course I'm talking about WINE gaming. If you guys don't provide the required documentation and support to the FOSS communities on how to run YOUR hardware, how are wine devs supposed to do their thing? They work with what they got and they got nothing. Even so, they were able to bring Windows games to Linux - quite an accomplishment for them, shame on AMD.



    Qaridarium: You have been saying that the *next* driver will solve all our problems for as long as I have been reading this forum. Notice, again the word "next" appears...


    Linux users are far more than a minority. I truly see Linux as the future - Windows has brought no new real functionality since XP. Thier same API and libraries has simply been having layers added on. If Windows broke compatibility in thier API, trust me Microsoft is done for.

    About the 4 devs thing. That is just sad. But for me, the consumer, I don't care if it is one dev or a million devs. I care about results.

    Again, hardware is useless without a working driver. You sold me uselessness.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr James View Post
    Puleeez, As a Linux dev you know that the only way to play any games that matter is through wine and thus yes, I am talking about 3D in wine and the tearing is in ALL scenarios - or am I missing a scenario other than 2D window movement and video playback? Please enlighten me as to the scenario in which there is no tearing.
    Wine gaming is the only way to seriously game as any game that actually matters is run through wine. Therefore if wine does not run, 3D for me the consumer does not exist - or am I to spend many an hour staring in awe at a 3D cube. For all intents and purposes, WINE IS 3D on Linux.
    Linux users have been feeding on scraps for long enough. Linux users are sick of begging for equal treatment.
    you are right wine support is very important

    but you are wrong about the radeon driver because they support all wine specific openGL extensions in openGL3.x/4.x

    the only point radeon lose is the law and order politic because S3TC is needed but Patented means its again the law to support that.

    in germany/europe all software patents are valid if they are linked to an hardware feature.

    means you beat the OS driver team for stay in law and order.

    thats not very nice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr James View Post
    Qaridarium: You have been saying that the *next* driver will solve all our problems for as long as I have been reading this forum. Notice, again the word "next" appears...
    "all" i only talk about the tearing bug.

    and i do not make fun on you.

    do you know? giving away NDA informations are dangerous because again the law and you beat me because i light you up?

    are you serious ?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    you are right wine support is very important

    but you are wrong about the radeon driver because they support all wine specific openGL extensions in openGL3.x/4.x

    the only point radeon lose is the law and order politic because S3TC is needed but Patented means its again the law to support that.

    in germany/europe all software patents are valid if they are linked to an hardware feature.

    means you beat the OS driver team for stay in law and order.

    thats not very nice.

    "all" i only talk about the tearing bug.

    and i do not make fun on you.

    do you know? giving away NDA informations are dangerous because again the law and you beat me because i light you up?

    are you serious ?


    I sir have not beaten you up but do think there is a language barrier here. I was not making fun of you and respect all forum members. Obviously though, from the posted replies of other members here, not all share my respect.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr James View Post
    I sir have not beaten you up but do think there is a language barrier here. I was not making fun of you and respect all forum members. Obviously though, from the posted replies of other members here, not all share my respect.
    I've refrained from posting so far, but you didn't show much respect to Mr Bridgman.

    Going back to the original post of this thread (sorry, but you don't own the thread, it's not yours, by creating this thread you'll have to accept other people are free to post in it) most of the problems you have stem not only from the drivers (open source, proprietary, doesn't matter) but also from other areas of linux.
    If you use OpenGL for video playback, enable vsync. This is recommended by AMD themselves.
    2D tearing (and by that I assume you mean a composited environment) also has difficulties in how X is setup, but apparently that still the fault of drivers.
    I also don't see any linux advertising features by the way, so don't know where you get much of your information from.
    As for having a go at AMD for your perceived lack of enthusiasm for open source drivers by them, as has already been pointed out, it was the community that wanted the documention and would handle the rest. AMD have done that, and more. It's undeniably for business reasons (I don't think they've done so out of any sense of kindness), but it's still a Good Thing (TM), and they're still actively supporting and developing the drivers.
    So stop acting like the world owes you a favour.

  7. #7
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    Hi!

    Mr James, just be a bit more polite...
    Everything you write is already written here hundreds of times, the same is written in nvnews forums about nvidia.
    Bashing in forums won't help you and there will be the day you'll understand that

    That said, I'm out of your thread...

    regards
    Kirurgs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr James View Post
    - 2D is horrible with tearing everywhere - my Nvidia card does not tear while doing anything.
    - Videos are not watchable because of tearing - my Nvidia card is playing all my movies without tearing and without any glitches.
    this is fixed in the catalyst 11.1 coming up next month.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr James View Post
    - Gaming in WINE is not a possibility because everything crashes at startup - not on my Nvidia. Though some say it is the WINE devs fault, were ATI to provide more info I am sure the WINE devs would get it right.
    i pay crossover for wine support and i wrote bugreports.

    and i can tell you its not easy.
    wine's directX implementation do not have some features for exampel Geo-Instancing thats why arma2 shows more than bad graphic errors.
    but this is also on nvidia card.. just an exampel.

    wine in general is a big fight.

  9. #9
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    I think the "effect" that Mr James expects is "gfx hardware on windows" experience:
    you buy card, you already have the driver, the driver supports that card, you barely have any issues(maybe very few and minor, which are wiped out after time). You replace the old one, replace the driver and ready to go.

    This is currently not happening on amd side, neither in catalyst, nor in foss.

    Although HD4770 does get 60 fps fullhd on openarena(with minor gamma bug) using opensource drivers only. Still, not near possible 300+fps and by far not near feature-rich.

    The situation is, with both drivers, amd looses to nvidia. And 5xxx/6xxx gen are not usable on opensource at all. 4 developers ain't realistic to finish the driver, maybe after 10 years.

    But nvidia is not perfect, with it not only unsupporting opensource, but actively shutting it down; and ignoring optimus support requests. Well, something you might expect if you were using windows, not linux.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    And 5xxx/6xxx gen are not usable on opensource at all. 4 developers ain't realistic to finish the driver, maybe after 10 years.
    ? i do have an hd5670 and the opensource driver works what is your problem???

    works mean you need to install 2.6.37/.36 kernel because older one do have an crash bug.

    and 4 developers are not the same as 4 developers.

    means you can put the world best 4 developers into the linux team and 1000 worst developers into the windows team and the linux team beat the windows one..

    do you really think the linux devs are not the best of the best ?

    be sure the linux guys are the best of the best...

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