How to help / support Linux ? - your idea's

[squirrl]

Companies should provide drivers for one Linux distribution.

Distributions should be required to support one version for no less than 10 years.

][Slackware 9.1 changelog][
Thu Dec 16 18:57:05 UTC 2010
patches/packages/bind-9.4_ESV_R4-i486-1_slack9.1.tgz: Upgraded.
This update fixes some security issues.
For more information, see:

9.1 still gets patches.

[crazycheese]

Yes, you have huge choice with proprietary. The EULA is full of choices. Have fun.

[crazycheese]

Companies should provide drivers for one Linux distribution.

Distributions should be required to support one version for no less than 10 years.

][Slackware 9.1 changelog][
Thu Dec 16 18:57:05 UTC 2010
patches/packages/bind-9.4_ESV_R4-i486-1_slack9.1.tgz: Upgraded.
This update fixes some security issues.
For more information, see:

9.1 still gets patches.

Agreed. But do you know 90% of BSODs is because of bad written drivers? Closed source mind you. The situation is already good now - manufacturers *should* provide opensource drivers and kernel.org people can make them even more polished.

Maybe whats linux is missing is stable ABI for drivers and software. But this would mean requirement of ten versions of same infrastructure and bugs/exploits due to it. As well as written once, forgotten since - kind of binary blobs.

[Kano]

I do not fully get the coincidence between stable drivers and open source drivers. I had several ati cards which had several problems with open source drivers. Even with open specs it does not mean that everything works. It is more a psychological aspect that somebody prefers open source. As long as fglrx was supported with those older rv410 or r300 cards i had xv worked, which became a major problem with newer cards and fglrx later. But full system crashes i only had while debugging xorg issues with binary hacks or when switched drivers - that's the point where ati 100% sucks...

[plonoma]

I know something very concrete that you can do.

Write a java GUI for ffmpeg2theora.
http://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/index.html

There aren't very good cross-platform stable feature-rich solutions for this.

For Linux it's important that information is saved in FLOSS-formats+codecs.
Making programs that average joe can use will help to let people use those formats.
This makes more information accessible with free tools.

Making software is important. But also is the infrastructure on which it's build.
Linux needs free API's and free file formats, other wise it cannot support it.

[crazycheese]

I do not fully get the coincidence between stable drivers and open source drivers. I had several ati cards which had several problems with open source drivers. Even with open specs it does not mean that everything works. It is more a psychological aspect that somebody prefers open source. As long as fglrx was supported with those older rv410 or r300 cards i had xv worked, which became a major problem with newer cards and fglrx later. But full system crashes i only had while debugging xorg issues with binary hacks or when switched drivers - that's the point where ati 100% sucks...

No kano, its not psychological.
Proprietary is hidden insecure Pandora, which you cannot modify in any aspect(next-prev versions, card range, small bugs).
The hugest cons of proprietary is insecurity and limitation of your choices. Unless the master allows you to do so.

*stuff*

WinFF, try it

[»John«]

Linux is a pain in the ass for most people.

Nope. It depends on their ability to get rid of bad habits and what they need from their computers.

terminal is a crutch for poorly written software period.

the average users doesn't want to deal with it.

Wrong again. Command shell is extremely flexible and powerful tool for experienced users and/or system administrators.
The thing is that (as renkin already noted) "lusers" don't want to deal with anything except for "just click me and all your problems shall magically go away" kind of utilities.

My beef with terminal is thats its often needed to do simple thing that should be GUI.

Now that's a whole different story. I agree that there are still quite a few cases where GUI may not be sufficiently developed and these should be addressed ASAP.

You may not likel hearing it but as a former windows udser and having done quiet a bit of tech support. Its what I hear about linux and its from first hand experiences.

Same here. I was using Winblow$ for over a decade and the same thing goes for at least a dozen others who are all happy Ubuntu users now. Not that everything is perfect of course, but the fact that they haven't reverted itself means that it must be worth it and the benefits must outweigh all that they had to sacrifice.

don't shoot the messenger.

Don't worry - never gonna happen as everyone is entitled to his own opinion and constructive criticism is always welcome.

I started using linux in 1998 it was actually far less fractured then. Its gotten to out of hand.

I believe that enough diversity is always a good thing because diverse ecosystems are much more robust. That way almost everyone can get what suits him the best and it obviously seriously limits possible malware impact. Let's not resort to traditional proprietary "one size fits all" approach as that would almost certainly cause us more harm than good.

Linux needs one really good solid API and they need to hold binary compatability. They need to get application developers on board or the boat is going no where.

Let me reiterate: SCREW BINARY COMPATIBILITY! Completely tying your hands with backwards compatibility is a direct route to hell. Just have a look at what it did to X and Winblow$! If the so-called "application developers" are so lazy and incompetent that they can't deal with that, then I really believe we're much better off without them.

it depends on the circumstance but there are situation where installer don't run etc etc etc and your only hope is terminal, Ubuntu has made alot of useability strides.

I don't want a command line OS. neither do alot of other people. Point click and go. until linux as a OS accomplishs this on the desktop, its doomed to be a no show on desktop.

Do you realize that "installers" are actually pointless in systems with package management? That's what packages, package managers and repositories are for.
Now that's the bad habits I'm talking about - lusers expect that they need to download some crap from softpedia and lamelopers keep pushing out stupid installers instead of preparing packages and uploading them to distribution partner repositories.
If it wasn't for this, things would actually be much more convenient and more importantly, stuff would "just work".

Its great for server though. My ubuntu howmeserver is a nice machine, always up, never crashs but its pretty stripped down.

I don't have a beef with linux, I am trying to exspress why it hasn't been a sucess on dekstop despite nearly 2 decades of development.

Fast, reliable, lightweight. Now imagine using that on the desktop. The problem is, that it requires global paradigm shift - people willing to get rid of bad habits (libre drivers in the kernel, packages with applications in repositories and).

Yes, you have huge choice with proprietary. The EULA is full of choices. Have fun.

Exactly.

Agreed. But do you know 90% of BSODs is because of bad written drivers? Closed source mind you. The situation is already good now - manufacturers *should* provide opensource drivers and kernel.org people can make them even more polished.

Again - that's exactly why I hate blobs (along with all related bullshit like stable interfaces) so much. And no - it's definitely not psychological as Kano suggested.

Maybe whats linux is missing is stable ABI for drivers and software. But this would mean requirement of ten versions of same infrastructure and bugs/exploits due to it. As well as written once, forgotten since - kind of binary blobs.

Stable interfaces for software (system calls) already exists and fortunately never will for drivers. Thank god that kernel developers aren't willing to stab themselves in the back like that.

[»John«]

You know what? I think I know why proprietary vendors hate GNU/Linux (and probably libre platforms in general) so much - because we're forcing them to actually work and take the responsibility for their results instead of letting them cobble something together once (and usually wrong) and then dumping it out there to bitrot!

[Thatguy]

Nope. It depends on their ability to get rid of bad habits and what they need from their computers.


Wrong again. Command shell is extremely flexible and powerful tool for experienced users and/or system administrators.
The thing is that (as renkin already noted) "lusers" don't want to deal with anything except for "just click me and all your problems shall magically go away" kind of utilities.


Now that's a whole different story. I agree that there are still quite a few cases where GUI may not be sufficiently developed and these should be addressed ASAP.


Same here. I was using Winblow$ for over a decade and the same thing goes for at least a dozen others who are all happy Ubuntu users now. Not that everything is perfect of course, but the fact that they haven't reverted itself means that it must be worth it and the benefits must outweigh all that they had to sacrifice.


Don't worry - never gonna happen as everyone is entitled to his own opinion and constructive criticism is always welcome.


I believe that enough diversity is always a good thing because diverse ecosystems are much more robust. That way almost everyone can get what suits him the best and it obviously seriously limits possible malware impact. Let's not resort to traditional proprietary "one size fits all" approach as that would almost certainly cause us more harm than good.


Let me reiterate: SCREW BINARY COMPATIBILITY! Completely tying your hands with backwards compatibility is a direct route to hell. Just have a look at what it did to X and Winblow$! If the so-called "application developers" are so lazy and incompetent that they can't deal with that, then I really believe we're much better off without them.


Do you realize that "installers" are actually pointless in systems with package management? That's what packages, package managers and repositories are for.
Now that's the bad habits I'm talking about - lusers expect that they need to download some crap from softpedia and lamelopers keep pushing out stupid installers instead of preparing packages and uploading them to distribution partner repositories.
If it wasn't for this, things would actually be much more convenient and more importantly, stuff would "just work".


Fast, reliable, lightweight. Now imagine using that on the desktop. The problem is, that it requires global paradigm shift - people willing to get rid of bad habits (libre drivers in the kernel, packages with applications in repositories and).


Exactly.


Again - that's exactly why I hate blobs (along with all related bullshit like stable interfaces) so much. And no - it's definitely not psychological as Kano suggested.


Stable interfaces for software (system calls) already exists and fortunately never will for drivers. Thank god that kernel developers aren't willing to stab themselves in the back like that.

Let me ask this from your diatribe of drivel, has this worked for linux on the desktop and the end user ?

I think the marketshare speaks volumes.

[»John«]

Let me ask this from your diatribe of drivel, has this worked for linux on the desktop and the end user ?

I think the marketshare speaks volumes.

I completely agree. The real question is "What's the route cause of the problem (if the relatively small market share even is a problem)?"
I would like to get one thing straight though - we obviously disagree about this, but there's definitely no reason to insult each other. I was simply presenting my opinion on the matter and tried to support it with arguments based on the view from my own perspective. If you believe I have insulted you in any way in the process, then I'm really sorry, because I definitely didn't mean to. My opinions are never final before it's proven beyond any doubt that they're right and I'm more than happy to correct them accordingly when I'm presented with relevant evidence before that happens. I honestly believe you should start treating your opinions the same way instead of calling the thoughts of the others "diatribes of drivel" because it defeats the whole point of any discussion if you don't.
I believe there's no point in continuing this dialog unless you realize what I'm talking about and start treating other members of this forum with appropriate respect.