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Thread: A Bounty For Gallium3D On Haiku OS

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmidtbag View Post
    (...) the only thing holding back linux from popularity are:
    * its relatively not user friendly (i personally think it's easy but its way too hard for the average person)
    * it doesn't have enough commercial software support
    * and IMO, its a little too diverse which can be discouraging to some and makes support (professional or not) very difficult.
    since about 2008, linux got significantly easier, just in time for vista to screw up MS's name, and thats when it started to become more popular. unfortunately, windows 7 ended up being very successful so that took away a lot of the linux audience, but that just gives linux more time to be more polished for the picky people that left it in the first place.
    (...)
    How true it is.
    Yes, you're 200% right, but no-one seems to really care.
    The discussions around linux are 100% of the time dev oriented : mesa, gallium, some kernel stuff, performance of scheduler, etc.
    I quite don't know any existence of any care of end user in the way to provide to the neophyte something that not even just works, but something that he wants to play with.
    Apple is doing that. And they are doing that very well but they are the only ones. What prevents Apple of going more than 20% market share (which is already huge) is their sense of dictature against their own customers. And the prices too.

    Ubuntu has come that way, but not far enough. Far beyond any other linux distro, but not enough to convince people switching to Linux. Can Ubuntu achieve that goal alone ? Probably not without the community support. However, I stay confident that the majority of the community and the majority of the Linux developpers don't even understand what an end-user experience should be.
    Steve Jobs do understand and is known for getting on nerves when the user experience shouldn't be what he expects. Without such a guy (I hate Steve Jobs, but that guy achieved an impressive task with Apple), Linux will stay some geek system.
    Perhaps Mark Shuttleworth can do that, convincing the many that a user experiment should be the top priority.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatguy View Post
    Toss the package manager out the window and have a look at what apple is doing with mac, download unzip and run. they grew their market share 20% in the last 5 years. Its working.
    And you think that has anything to do with the OSX Bundles? First off OSX bundles are not always self-contained, they often spread files in the system (commonly under Library/Support) and these are NOT removed when you delete the bundle. When you use a package manager you easily remove the entire program, no need to manually hunt around for files.

    App Store (which is also coming to OSX) is nothing other than a glorified package manager, when my parents running Ubuntu installs programms using 'Add/Remove Program' they are greeted with a gui application very much like the App Store with ratings and full descriptions of software packages and a simple click to add/remove. Sounds like you have some hard-on for OSX, maybe you should go there instead of Haiku?

    Also Haiku IS adding a package manager, through the decision of the actual Haiku DEVELOPERS who obviously have a pretty good grasp of what Haiku should be (they're the ones making it after all).

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by XorEaxEax View Post
    And you think that has anything to do with the OSX Bundles? First off OSX bundles are not always self-contained, they often spread files in the system (commonly under Library/Support) and these are NOT removed when you delete the bundle. When you use a package manager you easily remove the entire program, no need to manually hunt around for files.

    App Store (which is also coming to OSX) is nothing other than a glorified package manager, when my parents running Ubuntu installs programms using 'Add/Remove Program' they are greeted with a gui application very much like the App Store with ratings and full descriptions of software packages and a simple click to add/remove. Sounds like you have some hard-on for OSX, maybe you should go there instead of Haiku?

    Also Haiku IS adding a package manager, through the decision of the actual Haiku DEVELOPERS who obviously have a pretty good grasp of what Haiku should be (they're the ones making it after all).

    A decision many in the haiku community did not agree with. A linuxism if you will. Many rallied for the bundle format, on one listened.

    I still have no problem dealing with a package manager myself and given the way in which the haiku devs seem to be able to strealine and make functional many thing. I think they will deliver a nice system that works.

    BTW Apple sells a user experience. Thats why they are gaining market share.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatguy View Post
    A decision many in the haiku community did not agree with. A linuxism if you will.
    How about opposing password authorization and a permissions system, too? There can be no compromise when you're out on the quest for User Friendliness! Show 'em what a real nice system should look like!

    Oh, and don't forget to remove all trace of command prompt, as it's known to confuse the users. Also, replace all text with icons for those of us who do not have the privilege of being literate.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by kirillkh View Post
    How about opposing password authorization and a permissions system, too? There can be no compromise when you're out on the quest for User Friendliness! Show 'em what a real nice system should look like!

    Oh, and don't forget to remove all trace of command prompt, as it's known to confuse the users. Also, replace all text with icons for those of us who do not have the privilege of being literate.
    I think your confusing UI needs with UI tools.

    There is nothing wrong with having a terminal, However it shouldn't be a depdancy. I am not a advocate of multiuser for most systems, it simply doen't make sense in many ways.

    Are there good uses for multi user, absolutely.

    Point of sale terminals, clients at large corporations etc etc etc. For a home desktop computer. I'd honestly rather have a multiboot system versus a multiuser. It works well with Beos/Haiku becuase these OS's boot in under 30 seconds on most machines.

    So its all about your user paradigm. But frankly I've heard and talked enough about linux here. If you not interested in using haiku, don't. If you are, great. Basically its gotten to the point of being ludacris.

    Its like this, you can obess's over linux all you want, no one is comming to you home erasing you drives and forcing you to install haiku at gun point. There are those of us who enjoy the haiku user experience, and then theres people who don't care about user experience.

    Haiku has reached a point where it could almost ship without a terminal. To me thats a great milestone of entry points for the average computer user who can't even defrag with a gui.

    Not everyone values what you value in a operating system and frankly I am tired of this debate.

    the hostility here is unprecedented. If you don't like haiku fine, but you don't see haiku users comming into your forums and slamming your OS.

    We as a group " i'd speak for the bulk of us i'd guess" don't really give 2 craps about you or your opinion of the OS we like to use and sure as hell I don't think the developers care either. If they liked linux we'd have a linux based OS to use, we don't don't.

    So stop shitting on everyone elses work. It paints the linux community in a bad light.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatguy View Post
    A decision many in the haiku community did not agree with.
    As the open vote showed, the MAJORITY wanted a package manager for Haiku, so what is your point?

    As for bundles, I have nothing against them but why wouldn't a simple .ZIP file suffice instead of that? In my opinion a package manager for applications with alot of dependancies and simple .ZIP files for applications that are self-contained is the best solution for Haiku. Currently you need to manually hunt down libraries or install large library-packs, hardly an elegant solution.

    And while it would be ideal for Haiku to have tons of native applications it's not going to happen anytime soon if ever, what's the ratio on Haikuware now? 1 native for 10 ported apps? Less than that?

    Haiku will be heavily reliant on ported apps, so making sure that porting apps and solving dependancies is as simple as possible will be crucial for Haiku to have any serious uptake when R1 is released. Most potential users will expect that atleast their open source favourite browsers, games, compressors, encoders, etc will be available on Haiku in order for them to switch/use it. Of course that doesn't exclude the existance of native apps which show off Haiku at it's best and hopefully encourage further native app development, but in order for Haiku to be attractive it needs ports of popular open source software.

    As for Gallium, yes that will be a great boon as it suddenly makes alot of opengl based games playable aswell as applications such as Blender. Sure, the open source drivers are not near as fast as their binary counterparts but they are hugely faster than software implementations, and it's not like Haiku will get any official drivers from AMD or NVidia anytime soon (most likely never).

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by XorEaxEax View Post
    As the open vote showed, the MAJORITY wanted a package manager for Haiku, so what is your point?

    As for bundles, I have nothing against them but why wouldn't a simple .ZIP file suffice instead of that? In my opinion a package manager for applications with alot of dependancies and simple .ZIP files for applications that are self-contained is the best solution for Haiku. Currently you need to manually hunt down libraries or install large library-packs, hardly an elegant solution.

    And while it would be ideal for Haiku to have tons of native applications it's not going to happen anytime soon if ever, what's the ratio on Haikuware now? 1 native for 10 ported apps? Less than that?

    Haiku will be heavily reliant on ported apps, so making sure that porting apps and solving dependancies is as simple as possible will be crucial for Haiku to have any serious uptake when R1 is released. Most potential users will expect that atleast their open source favourite browsers, games, compressors, encoders, etc will be available on Haiku in order for them to switch/use it. Of course that doesn't exclude the existance of native apps which show off Haiku at it's best and hopefully encourage further native app development, but in order for Haiku to be attractive it needs ports of popular open source software.

    As for Gallium, yes that will be a great boon as it suddenly makes alot of opengl based games playable aswell as applications such as Blender. Sure, the open source drivers are not near as fast as their binary counterparts but they are hugely faster than software implementations, and it's not like Haiku will get any official drivers from AMD or NVidia anytime soon (most likely never).

    I think the unzip and go paradigm was easier. The only redeeming point of packagemanangement was that in thoery it cut down on disc space useage by not duplicating large librarys, which to some degree is a sensiable argument if you don't have any disc space.

    Haiku is definately going to be reliant on ported applications for some time. Its already got a number of solid apps now however that are functional, they just aren't feature competitive.

    The native media player is pretty robust.

    As to the drivers, I think gallium might have a chance of being pretty damn fast fiarly soon. Its not going to be as fast as the binary blobls, But I could see it being 70-90% of it. Which should give gallium a great return on performance.

    Hopefully someone will step up and take the bounty !

  8. #58
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    the disagrement stems from making it a R1 blocker IMHO

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatguy View Post
    I think the unzip and go paradigm was easier. The only redeeming point of packagemanangement was that in thoery it cut down on disc space useage by not duplicating large librarys, which to some degree is a sensiable argument if you don't have any disc space.
    Actually there are lot's of other 'redeeming' qualities, for one it can easily offer the 'Ubuntu Add/Remove programs' - 'App Store' type of user friendliness which is even easier that .ZIP files, you get a good description of the software, possibly user ratings, then just click to install, just click to remove. For 'power' users it offers great control of the software installed on the system, easily upgradeable, easily (totally) removeable. And if you don't like it, .ZIP files and Library packs are to be found on Haikuware. I remember your comments on Haiku's home site as 'OMG!! Package management!! OMG!! Haiku is now Linux!!! OMG!!', thankfully you've toned down your anti-Linux propaganda here atleast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thatguy View Post
    The native media player is pretty robust.
    It's fine, but I'd say 90% of it's functionality comes out of (wisely) leveraging the cross platform ffmpeg code so I'm not sure that it qualifies as a prime example of a 'native' application.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thatguy View Post
    As to the drivers, I think gallium might have a chance of being pretty damn fast fiarly soon. Its not going to be as fast as the binary blobls, But I could see it being 70-90% of it. Which should give gallium a great return on performance.
    I'm not that up to date on open source graphics driver performance but 70-90% really sounds too high to me. What drivers are you talking about specifically?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thatguy View Post
    Hopefully someone will step up and take the bounty !
    Agreed, but it's a huge task, maybe we need to add some more $ for it to be a really attractive proposition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XorEaxEax View Post
    Actually there are lot's of other 'redeeming' qualities, for one it can easily offer the 'Ubuntu Add/Remove programs' - 'App Store' type of user friendliness which is even easier that .ZIP files, you get a good description of the software, possibly user ratings, then just click to install, just click to remove. For 'power' users it offers great control of the software installed on the system, easily upgradeable, easily (totally) removeable. And if you don't like it, .ZIP files and Library packs are to be found on Haikuware. I remember your comments on Haiku's home site as 'OMG!! Package management!! OMG!! Haiku is now Linux!!! OMG!!', thankfully you've toned down your anti-Linux propaganda here atleast.


    It's fine, but I'd say 90% of it's functionality comes out of (wisely) leveraging the cross platform ffmpeg code so I'm not sure that it qualifies as a prime example of a 'native' application.


    I'm not that up to date on open source graphics driver performance but 70-90% really sounds too high to me. What drivers are you talking about specifically?


    Agreed, but it's a huge task, maybe we need to add some more $ for it to be a really attractive proposition.
    I heard it through the grapvein "reliable sources" that they though the gallium driver could get to that performance level and AMD seemed pretty commited to getting it there. I think the largest problem with getting help from nvidia and AMD on graphics drivers is the amount of Microsoft IP in those drivers that they aren't willing to discuss. They likely can't tell us how much IP is there.

    Lets put it this way. the software spec is and has been driving the hardware for about a decade now.

    Would be nice if someone who was capable would steup and name that price.

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