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Thread: Version 1.0 Of Enlightenment Foundation Libraries

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirv View Post
    Changing the numbering system won't do much - making it 1.00 doesn't magically make something "stable".
    It's not magic. It's just human psychology.
    “Release early, release often” attracts testers and developers alike.
    If you refuse to give it a stable version number, you also refuse to promise to not reshuffle the whole software source code from one day to the next and break everything in one go.

    If 0.17 is usable, they should just ship the current state as Beta 1 and then over the course of 6 months ship 3 additional Betas, 2 RCs, and then release that thing.
    Then they should take 6 to 12 additional months to tighten up the loose ends and get 1.00 out of the door.
    And then instead of endless release delays, they should delay features, not releases. A 6 months release cycle served both KDE and GNOME very well.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    It's not magic. It's just human psychology.
    “Release early, release often” attracts testers and developers alike.
    If you refuse to give it a stable version number, you also refuse to promise to not reshuffle the whole software source code from one day to the next and break everything in one go.

    If 0.17 is usable, they should just ship the current state as Beta 1 and then over the course of 6 months ship 3 additional Betas, 2 RCs, and then release that thing.
    Then they should take 6 to 12 additional months to tighten up the loose ends and get 1.00 out of the door.
    And then instead of endless release delays, they should delay features, not releases. A 6 months release cycle served both KDE and GNOME very well.
    Everything has been available to test with for some time, and you could pull out of svn as often as you'd like. They notified when the interfaces became stable, and I'm guessing didn't want to have the pressure of releasing stuff when they knew the interfaces would change. Also, E17 was originally never intended to take on KDE or GNOME, though that seems to have changed by now. The project kind of grew.
    So I guess I still don't see your point.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirv View Post
    Everything has been available to test with for some time, and you could pull out of svn as often as you'd like.
    I know that I could do that. However that is not an approach for a community project to attract new people. I'm assuming they want new people, right?
    If they what more, then they should get 0.17 into a state which distributors won't hesitate to put into their repos. Then people can more easily check it out. Of those some might become interested to develop it.
    Currently 0.16 is the release favoured by the distributors I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirv View Post
    didn't want to have the pressure of releasing stuff
    When they feel pressure to release something after no less than 10 years, then they are the most laid back people I know.
    To put things into perspective: When 0.17 was first committed to CVS, KDE 2.0 has just been released, GNOME was still at version 1.2, and Windows ME was the latest shit from Microsoft!

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by curaga View Post
    Well I'll be damned. With hell frozen, Duke Nukem Forever shipping, and e17 reaching 1.0, what the heck are we supposed to use as a metaphor for "never"?
    Year of the Linux Desktop.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    I know that I could do that. However that is not an approach for a community project to attract new people. I'm assuming they want new people, right?
    If they what more, then they should get 0.17 into a state which distributors won't hesitate to put into their repos. Then people can more easily check it out. Of those some might become interested to develop it.
    Currently 0.16 is the release favoured by the distributors I know.


    When they feel pressure to release something after no less than 10 years, then they are the most laid back people I know.
    To put things into perspective: When 0.17 was first committed to CVS, KDE 2.0 has just been released, GNOME was still at version 1.2, and Windows ME was the latest shit from Microsoft!
    I don't think it was being developed as anything other than "this is fun" - at least that's the impression I had. Plus it seems to have grown. I think they're after people to develop applications now though...which is why the push for some stable base libraries recently.
    Either way, suppose it doesn't matter much - there's a lot of work on it recently, and it's shaping up quite nicely.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    The adoption (in distros etc) i think has to do with not being release quality and by that i mean that although it was stable a lot of things could have changed until its official release.

    What is also needed is native apps in order to be able to built a complete Desktop environment. Some might argue with native but IMO if you want to offer a pleasant quality experience you don't want your desktop to look like a patchwork.

    What i would love to see in the future is: e17-XUL for mozilla apps (firefox integration and why not thinderbird), an xmms2 frontend (yes i know xmms2 is not ready), mplayer frontend, frontend for telepathy (for IM, VOIP, the lot), text editor, photo editor/manager, libre office integration, little tools here and there (ie. pulse audio mixer) etc.
    The question is, what did they do wrong?

    KDE and Gnome weren't always this big - they picked up momentum over the years and kept growing. Even XFce came out of nowhere and made a place for itself without having any of the things you mentioned at the time. Regardless of usage numbers Enlightenment and Fluxbox had the biggest buzz in the Linux community at one point. They were the hot cool different window managers to use.

    So what happened? What misstep kept them from relevancy?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack View Post
    So what happened? What misstep kept them from relevancy?
    I think you've answered your own question. They weren't moving fast enough. What I heard from someone who looked into EFL development is that Rasterman is a bit of a perfectionist. And there's nothing wrong with that. If he wanted to spend more time just getting things right, fair play to him. It may not have taken off on the desktop but I think it's great that it's found its niche in the embedded market.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack View Post
    The question is, what did they do wrong?

    KDE and Gnome weren't always this big - they picked up momentum over the years and kept growing. Even XFce came out of nowhere and made a place for itself without having any of the things you mentioned at the time. Regardless of usage numbers Enlightenment and Fluxbox had the biggest buzz in the Linux community at one point. They were the hot cool different window managers to use.

    So what happened? What misstep kept them from relevancy?
    i don't think they did something wrong. They just didn't have to push "stable" releases. From my POV it was more of a side project than something needed for the desktop stack. In other words nothing was dependent on e17 (at least in linux desktop).

    I have no idea how easy/attractive is for developers to write Apps in EFL but now that the interfaces are not changing (stable core) things might change and the whole thing might gain momentum. Its up to the E17 people/community and what they want to achieve with it.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    I have no idea how easy/attractive is for developers to write Apps in EFL but now that the interfaces are not changing (stable core) things might change and the whole thing might gain momentum. Its up to the E17 people/community and what they want to achieve with it.
    Very easy, I gather. I remember seeing an example of a basic DVD player written in just a few dozen lines of C several years ago.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    It's not magic. It's just human psychology.
    “Release early, release often” attracts testers and developers alike.
    If you refuse to give it a stable version number, you also refuse to promise to not reshuffle the whole software source code from one day to the next and break everything in one go.

    If 0.17 is usable, they should just ship the current state as Beta 1 and then over the course of 6 months ship 3 additional Betas, 2 RCs, and then release that thing.
    Then they should take 6 to 12 additional months to tighten up the loose ends and get 1.00 out of the door.
    And then instead of endless release delays, they should delay features, not releases. A 6 months release cycle served both KDE and GNOME very well.
    You can't compare Enlightenment with KDE and GNOME. Both KDE and GNOME have fairly large teams of developers working on their respective projects while E17, although having a few other developers over the years, has largely been been the creation of one person, Rasterman. Frankly I have no problem with the project's "It Will Be Done When It's Done" approach rather than a hard timeline. After all a hard timeline is what produced abominations like KDE 4.0X and 4.1X, and I like KDE.

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