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Thread: Mono 2.10, Moonlight 4 Preview 1 Released

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    So let's test again your claims:

    Does Mono run on Android? Yes, and it does it faster than default Android VM (look for MonoDroid and also here.
    .Net on android is pretty smart move by microcrap. Kill that droid!

    .Net on android thanks to unpaid time by zombified opensource students is brilliant move by microcrap!

    No, microcrap is not that hideous? Why did it prohibited GPL, killed Maemo & Nokia, pushed DirectX to nearly kill 3D on non-ms platforms, tried to hijack the HTML in 9x and pays Miguel to guide zombie work?

    I tell you your mono will shine some day - will work everywhere and all due to community! And next day comes microsoft and claims your work to itself.

    Anyone who codes for, praises, pays or supports microsoft is just plain stupid or zombified.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    .Net on android is pretty smart move by microcrap. Kill that droid!

    .Net on android thanks to unpaid time by zombified opensource students is brilliant move by microcrap!

    No, microcrap is not that hideous? Why did it prohibited GPL, killed Maemo & Nokia, pushed DirectX to nearly kill 3D on non-ms platforms, tried to hijack the HTML in 9x and pays Miguel to guide zombie work?

    I tell you your mono will shine some day - will work everywhere and all due to community! And next day comes microsoft and claims your work to itself.

    Anyone who codes for, praises, pays or supports microsoft is just plain stupid or zombified.
    MonoDroid is commercial supported project and is paid not to zombies.
    GPL is prohibited on WinPhones for other reason: license incompatibilities, which for me means that they were honest (as Apple weren't). I do know why MS wants to have an incompatible license with GPL as was threated by it. And I do think that is a bad move. I don't think anyway that this stops you to use Mono to create a GPL application, game or whatever.
    If DirectX is proprietary, does Java is not? Or Cocoa in iPhones? Or your proprietary NVidia or AMD driver? I do hope that once NVidia will show pity to opensource and AMD too, to not talk about VIA, Apple, Intel (that they don't opensource IntelCompiler, because they are also enemies of opensource). If your DX argument was about WinPhones, I think you used Android (that have Android toolkit, no Java one like Swing) or Cocoa from iPhone. I do think that Nokia was the exception on this respect having all stack opensource. Will you buy fast Symbian Nokia phone for it? Just to see that it makes a lot of sense this opensource? Or you just wish that all to bow to your kind wish to have everything opensource and to open all sourcecode of their code. You may ask any corporation to give to you this openess and you will see that some opensource initiatives died (like Sun's Looking Glass project) just because people don't contribute back. I do work in an (hopefully free) opensource project and I do know its challenges. Is not that I don't like it, I just think that people confond always opensource with free and rarely (if ever) they contribute back. One guy here likes GNote and hates Tomboy. Why doesn't he contribute to GNote? Or better to make a much better Qt alternative to it (or contribute to a similar GNote implementation)?
    I wish that opensource to succeed, and Mono at its core it is opensource (look that to benchmark a newer Mono, someone on this topic recompiled Mono to latest version to see if are performance gains or not).
    Am I zombified? Don't you create a straw man?
    Should I make the same argument on Ubuntu development? That they rarely contribute back? Or about Oracle? That they did not opensource their OpenOffice extensions? Or that JavaFX was not supported on Linux in 1.0 release and a part of development was closed? Or that Google have an "embrace, extend, extinguish" Linux kernel that its customizations were removed out of tree because they did their proprietary extensions so phone drivers can make easier their phone drivers but no opensource GPL way?
    Will you try to push people to not buy IPhones, Android Phones, WP7 phone but just dumb phones, because there is no way to push those companies to opensource their platforms?

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    .Net on android is pretty smart move by microcrap. Kill that droid! (...), killed Maemo & Nokia, pushed DirectX to nearly kill 3D on non-ms platforms, tried to hijack the HTML in 9x (...)
    Let me response factual:
    .Net on Android: there is no such thing. Is like saying Oracle/Sun Java on AIX, or Java on Mac OS X. IBM did it (paying license fees for TCK compatibility kit) or Apple did it. It is clear when Apple wanted to chase Java support on OS X that Oracle wanted to take ownership after.
    There is Mono on Android, which initially was created by someone that was not from Novell, later the idea is embodied by this corporation. You have to show to me an Android Microsoft initiative to date, or iPhone one, and so on.
    Novell was a company in fact that had historically support GPL3.
    Look the Microsoft point of view:
    At this point in time, in order to avoid any doubt or legal debate on this issue, Microsoft has decided that the Novell support certificates that we distribute to customers will not entitle the recipient to receive from Novell, or any other party, any subscription for support and updates relating to any code licensed under GPLv3. We will closely study the situation and decide whether to expand the scope of the certificates in the future.
    .
    Microsoft for DirectX was in a time that other 3D APIs exist, like Glide, QuickDraw3D (part of Apple QuickTime SDK). DirectX success that well because of market share and good execution as you had to certify your video card to put your DirectX (and version) logo.
    In fact even the 3D API that you perceive standard (OpenGL) have proprietary extensions (known as ARB) from 1.x APIs, proprietary compilers for shaders, isolated proprietary API hookup area.
    Any corporation I know have proprietary implementations and extensions that are non standard.
    This is why you have JS Canvas support in HTML 5, as it was a WebKit extension to make possible to write Widgets in OS X 10.4 (aka Tiger). Do you think that Apple tried to hijack HTML? Novell have proprietary Mono extensions: C# Shell == REPL support, Mono.SIMD, IPhone and Android support. Does Novell want to hijack Microsoft/.Net? Or they are just another face of Microsoft?
    Maemo killed by Microsoft? Or by Nokia as they pick Intel as partner? Or Intel is also a subsidiary of Microsoft? That why Intel have arguably the best hardware support on Linux on desktop. It works with almost no driver by default... I hope that Microsoft know what they are doing...

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    So let's test again your claims:

    Also by default WinForms is not installed in Ubuntu 10.10 (so no risk here), the same about XSP, if you think that ASP.NET may have a tricky patented technology. Anyway, to make an analogy, both Gnome and KDE use an implementation of WebKit by default (Gnome in help, KDE in Konquerror or QtWebKit in general) so you should remove KDE as have technologies that once Apple may want to attack.(is a fallacious argument but have more bases as installed technologies). And we should rewrite all code to use Mozilla's Gecko engine.
    Good joke mentioning webkit while it delivered from KDE's khtml. It's rather apple which has to worry. Again, do you know any patents in webkit I should fear? I don't care about Ubuntu, but about overall. It's Icaza who should split winforms, xsp etc. from the main packages.

    Any final project is easier to be rewritten in other platform as you don't have to bother with bug fixing and such. At the end everything that is written in Vala can be taken as C output and after this look to any inefficiencies that Vala compiler does (do you know that by default Vala checks about NULL pointer!?) and rewrite them in a slimmer C code. And if you will apply to all libraries/codebases that Vala use, you will get a significant speedup. When will you rewrite Shotwell from Vala to C? Or C++?
    I wouldn't rewrite Vala application like Shotwell, because unlike F-spot, I found it to be very responsive and starting very fast.

    I've already asked you: when a rewritten of your Arch or Ubuntu installer in optimized C, who knows, from 15 minutes that Ubuntu asks, may get down to 14:35. As for my needs, if you have time, I love Mercurial that is written in Python. Will you write it in C++? But at least its frontend? (TortoiseHG that is also Python based)
    I already answered: installer is not something I'm using all the time, close it, run it tens time in a minute like a typical desktop applications.

    Does Mono run on Android? Yes, and it does it faster than default Android VM (look for MonoDroid and also here.
    Damn, we're finished. :P Or maybe not, because Google guys are quite smart. Thankfully Qt is coming to Android.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    I wouldn't rewrite Vala application like Shotwell, because unlike F-spot, I found it to be very responsive and starting very fast.
    Yes, but AmaroK does not, why not rewrite AmaroK in C? At least to start in similar times as Banshee?
    This is what is about, if you are pleased (as I am for myself for Mono apps that I use) I see no point to rewrite them just to win theoretically (or practically sometimes) some RAM or 1 second at startup as other issues are more important.

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    Yes, but AmaroK does not, why not rewrite AmaroK in C? At least to start in similar times as Banshee?
    This is what is about, if you are pleased (as I am for myself for Mono apps that I use) I see no point to rewrite them just to win theoretically (or practically sometimes) some RAM or 1 second at startup as other issues are more important.
    Nobody proved AmaroK written in C will start faster - as you mentioned database can affect the player performance and who knows if it doesn't affect AmaroK startup time? Not some RAM, but quite a lot of RAM and not one second, but more. Btw. you won't support M$ too and this is the big WIN.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    Nobody proved AmaroK written in C will start faster - as you mentioned database can affect the player performance and who knows if it doesn't affect AmaroK startup time? Not some RAM, but quite a lot of RAM and not one second, but more. Btw. you won't support M$ too and this is the big WIN.
    Look again here, if you skipped this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH-VrnIV-rs
    We talk about 40% startup time, and is about C++ that starts slower than C#/Mono that the former is slow in your eyes.
    FYI I will explain why in some way Mono fared well and why startup time is worse in AmaroK than in Mono, etc.
    First of all, excluding your fully biased way, C#/Mono, and in general any language that support JIT will fare well in a math intensive benchmark. Java already prove it, etc. Try to run Eclipse with big codebases and try to use KDevelop or Anjuta (I did never use QtCreator for those). You will see that Eclipse even is written in Java, works better than their C++/C siblings (at least KDev and Anjuta) in all cases I do know. You will get probably misquote me out of context, but the reason that Eclipse is better for scaling in big codebases is that is well written, is not (necessarily) that C++ or C may get (or not) good performance.
    In general any abstraction will give an overhead, and I will point some that you met: libSO/DLL memory mapping, files on disk written in a format more or less human readable (like Xml) instead binary ones (that avoid big disk accesses), plugins (as the application have to read, parse, validate, map functionality in application logic) and virtual calls (also named in language agnostic way: late binding).
    C programs in general are written with less virtual calls, because is a bit awkward to write virtual calls (meaning pointer to a function) and when is done, so in raw performance, most likely (excluding you talk about scientific code where pointer aliasing matter, so you will write this code either in Fortran or in Java, maybe C, but never C++) will bring the raw performance.
    The benchmarks where Mono "won" in front of C++ "paradigms" were that the C like coding will give less overhead. Anyway, as C++ give an overhead (raw number performance), the same Mono (depending how you write code) you will have abstraction penalty like bounds-checking (the most common issue) or boxing/unboxing.
    So for certain a C style like coding of AmaroK will bring better performance, as code will be written in an efficient style.
    Database code is a different issue, and you get it again (and it seem that at _every_ post you get a logical fallacy, yet facts wrong etc), and is just after your application start.
    Let me explain: when your music library player start and its frameworks will start (I think both AmaroK and Banshee, I can say for certain in case of Banshee, but I think is the same for Amarok) a mini database (SqlLite) and will read and filter music library information using it. Firefox use it too (to search in history or when you search in bookmarks). The reason is that many common cases (like filtering through some criteria) are much easier to be understood and to be worked with than to be rewritten in C/C++/C# whatever to get a filtering for a criteria (i.e. filtering 5 star songs).
    This makes that SqlLite (as startup time) to be the same for AmaroK and Banshee. Also performance wise, both AmaroK and Banshee SqlLite Selects & co code will get lower runtime performance than "native" Mono/C/C++ for filtering, but the code will be well written, is already tested, and so on.
    This is why it makes no sense to rewrite an application (probably you are still sticking in your mind with GNote): there are many ways to reduce startup time. I've did it for my .Net/Win only project. Literally it goes down from around 10 seconds (around 1 year ago) to around 3.5. The JIT time goes from 5 to 6 seconds to 0.2 -0.3 (so application starts the same things). Is just about profiling and setting bugs down.
    AmaroK will certainly will go faster if you will take its all code, look for all abstractions and write them without iterators, without collections, databases, using raw code. Instead parsing xml files, you will have to set a binary packaged format, that is binary efficient (can be LZ compressed) so people with slow disks will get it running faster. Another area you can improve, is to make all plugins part of AmaroC inside application, no memory mapping at startup, no wasted memory. At the end, to be lightning fast, you will have to rewrite all SqlLite database code to an optimized C, and for slow areas, look to generated assembly code (use for Gcc the -s flag) and try to find a reduced form for them. In this way, (no joke intended) AmaroC may start 2-3 times faster than Banshee (for the same library size), it may be running around 4-5 times faster, if not more, in searching in the music library and so on.
    As you know and have all tools to optimize, I guarantee to you, even AmaroK is a big project, in two years time, you can do it! I will install it as a default player if you will do it. Will you do it? I would love to write to you bug reports (sarcastic).
    Do you feel right to that? Or you think is worthless?

  8. #108
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    Mono is free licensed, please hear here why: http://apebox.org/wordpress/linux/374/

  9. #109
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    Default Mono 2 10 Moonlight 4 Preview 1 Released

    Panned mono and stereo are not the same thing.

    I could write a page or two on the differences but the best way is to do an actual stereo recording and compare the two.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    Mono is free licensed, please hear here why: http://apebox.org/wordpress/linux/374/
    What architecture, 32 bit or 64 bit, it is running? Thank you.

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