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Thread: Ubuntu Board Votes On Non-Free Software Option

  1. #21
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    Reply-Edit: Not to mention that users who really are that stupid are very unlikely to install Linux from a CD in the first place. They'll probably pick up a computer from a retailer. In a hypothetical world where Ubuntu PCs are on the showroom floor at your neighborhood suburban Best Buy, one would hope that the pre-installed Ubuntu from Best Buy would come with the most user-friendly options selected by default, including proprietary drivers and Flash. They'd be complete fools not to do so.

  2. #22
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    Has anyone ever bought a computer that had flash pre-installed?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remco View Post
    If we start including proprietary software into the distribution, we might as well use Adobe Reader instead of Evince, UltraEdit instead of Gedit, Picasa instead of Shotwell, Fluendo DVD Player instead of Totem, Opera instead of Firefox, and WinNT instead of Linux. They all have better features or better compatibility with industry standards. Why use Linux at all? It's just a cheap clone of Windows 2000 anyway.
    ++

    If you don't use Linux for the Freedom, go get yourself a copy of OSX and live a happy life.

  4. #24
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    Default good for Ubuntu

    Quote Originally Posted by superppl View Post
    Installing non-free stuff by default would probably install the Microsoft Core Fonts package, and I HATE those fonts. To my eyes, they are the most despicable, ugly fonts in the universe, and there are free font replacements a plenty.
    hell, yeah! i myself prefer DejaVu fonts. good stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by evolution View Post
    I've been telling people to use Ubuntu as their first Linux distro, because of it's ease to install and use, but with decisions like this, I think Ubuntu will be less suitable for beginners... And I'll start to recommend some people to try alternative distros instead (Mint comes at my mind...) :confused:
    if it you who is doing the installation then it's a good practice to configure Internet-access and run an update too, so you will have your non-oss stuff anyway. otherwise, you don't have business fiddling with it anyway.

    i myself install mainly OpenSuse on people's computers (were this non-oss stuff also handled quite nicely - it has separate iso-image for where you need this shit in completely offline installation) and Ubuntu on kids computers.

    Quote Originally Posted by inglorion View Post
    Personally, I feel that the Board has made the right choice. This is partially because I like Ubuntu to be a showcase of what a 100% free software system can be like, but also because I think there are practical benefits. Free software isn't just a nice to have thing for users, but it also makes the distributors job easier: by definition, they are allowed to modify and redistribute the software, so they can do everything that is necessary to make sure it fits in and plays nicely with the rest of their system. This is something that Ubuntu excels at, and it is what has allowed Ubuntu to go from nowhere to the top Linux distribution in terms of popularity. It is their core advantage, and free software has made it possible. Non-free software tends to get in the way.
    right on, man! this whole comment, while stating the obvious, is golden. i think i will add it to my citation collection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Wtf? Now clicking on checkbox is found to be soo difficult? You don't have to be a pro user to do that, and how many this dumb users actually install Linux? Someone ever met anyone? Cmmon, even dumbest windows user know to drive a mouse and click on checkbox, they can even read what this checkbox is about... This is really silly, if someone can't handle those should be playing with marbles, not with installing OS.
    indeed.
    come on, people, while i were going out on first dates with gals i were talking to them about OS stacks, DVB, network interconnection basics & OSI and those are not nerdy girls. my absolute record of straight, non-stop "lecturing" something is about ~6 hours. and none of them gone running away, shut me up, complained about it or refused a continuation ;) and you telling me a checkbox will scare people away ? well, a CD will scare people like this too. and this kind of shit we supposed to indulge ?

    i have once installed Ubuntu along with Windows™ on 12 or something years old girl's computer. she then set up accounts for whole her family and were using it without issues or questions about 1-2 years, from what i heard. then her "computer education" classes began and she started using Windows™ more often. this is when they started bringing that computer to me for "repairs". she also were planted on proprietary IMs (ICQ and Skype. without usage of their actual payed services) and social networks (where one usage can be to "find/contact friends" which is tolerable, but the other "as a pastime" which should be handled carefully).
    that is, inoculation of habits to do-just-because-other-people-do and uncontrollable disclose of all sorts of things multiplied by teenage "self-discovery" life-phase and stuff like that.
    these "computer education classes" really should be called "information handling ignorance training" :\

    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_berra View Post
    Has anyone ever bought a computer that had flash pre-installed?
    good point, i certainly don't remember such thing while there is plenty of useless bloated crap always pre-installed. perhaps that because whole thing with flash is same old "de facto" monopoly with "de facto industry standard" where monopolist so huge and shameless that he's not feeling like paying for spreading of his proprietary crap and retailers don't feel like advertising it for free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temar View Post
    Where is the problem in installing the software automatically? It hurts noone but it improves the user experience.
    except it denies user he's software freedom. no biggie, right ? after all, it's just a silly principle that entire F/LOSS movement stands on.
    if it's automation you seek then perhaps they should consider to have gnash or lightspark by default and provide a menu in their "software center" or whatever to switch between such interchangeable free&proprietary components like "nouveau<->blob", "gnash<->lightspark<->blob", etc. if non-oss repository is enabled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temar View Post
    Do you really _want_ to be called by your friends for such a small problem? I would prefer it if they would only ask for help if they have real problems.
    and i would prefer that most countries, including my own, would have real computer education in schools instead of IE® default button layout memorization classes, Borland® Pascal™ & Delphi™ "programming" (how the fuck do to teach "programming" without even saying or showing WTF computer & OS stack consists of ? and why at all ?) in MSDOS™ & Windows™XP® and shit like that. then all that little crap would not be a problem and no one would need to find "a geek" to deal with it. and it's not kind of shit you need a professional for and it's not kind of shit that justifies division of society in "geeks" and "non-geeks" in the digital age when information travel planet-wide with the speed of light.

    silly, right? but a man can dream...
    so tell me, should we encourage ignorance with information handling via computational devices in that very age _or_ should we encourage knowledge and respect of right to own and indiscriminately control one's tools like Free Software movement were created to do ?

  5. #25
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    They voted against, because they do not want linux users to have to purchase antivirus.

    Ubuntu is missing TWO points:

    - integrate "Suggest feature/Support this app" button in Appcenter, to support free software apps.

    - the current closed source is explained simply as "Ubuntu developers will not be able to suggest features" - what the crap? - how about "Closed source software is Black Box - Ubuntu gives no guarantee on its actual content or behavior"

    But the main problem is Mark himself - way, way too small enthusiasm or dedication; business model based on open-core so users do developers job - bad, bad, bad.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfx. View Post
    except it denies user he's software freedom. no biggie, right ? after all, it's just a silly principle that entire F/LOSS movement stands on.
    The average user does not care about FOSS. For them, FOSS is a concept for developers so they can share code and a computer simply is an advanced tool.

    if it's automation you seek then perhaps they should consider to have gnash or lightspark by default and provide a menu in their "software center" or whatever to switch between such interchangeable free&proprietary components like "nouveau<->blob", "gnash<->lightspark<->blob", etc. if non-oss repository is enabled.
    It's not about automation, but about working tools. Gnash or Lightspark are no working alternatives. The FOSS community has the delusion that they can provide full-featured replacements for every single tool out there, but they can't. How long have the Flash-specs been open now?

    There are plenty of distributions out there, which give you the maximum amount of freedom. Ubuntu always pictures itself as the distribution for the masses, but many people in the ubuntu community fail to see what the average user really wants. Sometimes I get the feeling that Mark Shuttleworth is the only one who really understands the average computer user.

    I really hope that Ubuntu will make money soon, so Mark does no longer depend that much on the FOSS community. If you really want to make progress, you can't listen to the idealists, but you need a strong leader who can make hard descisions. When looking at Android you can see that both is possible: A user-friendly experience and open source. But the FOSS community fails to see that.

    and i would prefer that most countries, including my own, would have real computer education in schools instead of IE® default button layout memorization classes,...

    silly, right? but a man can dream...
    so tell me, should we encourage ignorance with information handling via computational devices in that very age _or_ should we encourage knowledge and respect of right to own and indiscriminately control one's tools like Free Software movement were created to do ?
    Every expert wishes that the average person had more knowledge about his area of expertise. Truth is, you can't be an expert on every topic - not even an advanced user.

    I'm sure your banker wishes you would know more about the global economy and the monetary flow around the world. Hell, these concept have been around a lot longer than computers and you live in a global economy! Why do you still don't understand them fully? Could it be that you are not interested? That you want to spend your time on something more interesting, like developing software?

    People are not interested in computers, they just want to use them. A distribution which claims to be "Linux for the masses" should act accordingly.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temar View Post
    People are not interested in computers, they just want to use them. A distribution which claims to be "Linux for the masses" should act accordingly.
    What's the point of Linux for the masses if you completely rape the foundations that the system was built on? Just give up and use Windows already.

  8. #28
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    Default Hm.............

    Quote Originally Posted by evolution View Post
    Nice move by Ubuntu developers! (irony, OC)

    I think this decision will hurt a lot of users wanting to test Ubuntu in their computers as a first/alternative Linux OS (Operating System), because some proprietary software is needed to make things work (for instance, a lot of laptop users need the broadcom-wl drivers, as open-source broadcom is still giving some kernel panics; another example is the flash plugin, mainly if people are going to use sites such as FB or Youtube (gnash/lightspark are bad doing their "flash replacement" jobs, sorry))...

    I've been telling people to use Ubuntu as their first Linux distro, because of it's ease to install and use, but with decisions like this, I think Ubuntu will be less suitable for beginners... And I'll start to recommend some people to try alternative distros instead (Mint comes at my mind...)

    Cheers
    Hm... (this is the 10+ chars )
    The Technical Board voted unanimously against (0 for, 5 against) including non-free software in the distribution, agreeing that checking a box in the installer by default is equivalent to simply including the software in the default installation. This would have gone against Ubuntu's long standing policy that the only concession is for hardware drivers as detailed at http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/licensing

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Wtf? Now clicking on checkbox is found to be soo difficult? You don't have to be a pro user to do that, and how many this dumb users actually install Linux? Someone ever met anyone? Cmmon, even dumbest windows user know to drive a mouse and click on checkbox, they can even read what this checkbox is about... This is really silly, if someone can't handle those should be playing with marbles, not with installing OS.
    Exactly. That's what I was trying to say when I said that even those users who are THAT ignorant about computers will probably have a geek friend. That friend will probably be the one installing the OS for them anyway and will know what that option does. Anyway, I believe that even those ignorant users will probably have heard of google in case the geek friend is unavailable.

    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_berra
    Has anyone ever bought a computer that had flash pre-installed?
    Good point. There's nothing wrong in trying to be more user-friendly than "The Default OS", but Ubuntu should be about proving that it is possible to have an open-source operating system (OSOS?) that works for everybody.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temar View Post
    The average user does not care about FOSS. For them, FOSS is a concept for developers so they can share code and a computer simply is an advanced tool.
    Average Joe is always stupid, primarily thanks to windows and co.

    And average Joe windumbs PC is sending spammail, works as free proxy and has botnet integrated. As you correctly mentioned Joe does not care, he just keeps reinstalling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temar View Post
    It's not about automation, but about working tools. Gnash or Lightspark are no working alternatives. The FOSS community has the delusion that they can provide full-featured replacements for every single tool out there, but they can't. How long have the Flash-specs been open now?
    How much do Adobe content creation tools cost?

    Flash is a moving target, unlike more consistent PDF. Even if Gnash integrates full Flash8 support even with video-accel support, Youtube starts using Flash10(thanks god they switched to VP8, but they still suck as site though) - and user comes yelling.


    Quote Originally Posted by Temar View Post
    There are plenty of distributions out there, which give you the maximum amount of freedom. Ubuntu always pictures itself as the distribution for the masses, but many people in the ubuntu community fail to see what the average user really wants. Sometimes I get the feeling that Mark Shuttleworth is the only one who really understands the average computer user.
    Gnewsense... any more?
    Ubuntu, Debian and co do not have "maximum freedom". You are allowed to install skype and other garbage. They are just not included per se to prevent proprietary addiction of new Joes thanks to ignorance.

    The problem is that proprietary is huge disadvantage and no one would use it, if there would be an alternative. No one. But sometimes there is no alternative and you are forced, and thats why proprietary still exists - its also their new marketing scheme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temar View Post
    I really hope that Ubuntu will make money soon, so Mark does no longer depend that much on the FOSS community.
    You want Mark to loose one of his sources of income?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temar View Post
    If you really want to make progress, you can't listen to the idealists, but you need a strong leader who can make hard descisions. When looking at Android you can see that both is possible: A user-friendly experience and open source. But the FOSS community fails to see that.
    - it spies
    - its by far not ideal when it comes to "unofficial" builds, ie "porting" the Aos to previously WM phones. Actually, this infrastructure is almost entirely absent, the efforts land as forks and cannot keep up with newer Aos revisions. Nothing of such that you would see in linux kernel for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temar View Post
    Every expert wishes that the average person had more knowledge about his area of expertise. Truth is, you can't be an expert on every topic - not even an advanced user.

    I'm sure your banker wishes you would know more about the global economy and the monetary flow around the world. Hell, these concept have been around a lot longer than computers and you live in a global economy! Why do you still don't understand them fully? Could it be that you are not interested? That you want to spend your time on something more interesting, like developing software?

    People are not interested in computers, they just want to use them. A distribution which claims to be "Linux for the masses" should act accordingly.
    This is called investing your money in things you want to be developed. I agree that this mechanism is currently not in best shape.

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