Miguel de Icaza Starts New Company To Drive Mono

[ciplogic]

How lovely. Didn't you know gnome sucks more? ;>
There's no proof.
You said:
"If their customers demand Mono, then Mono it is."
You didn't show people demanded mono. Even if people are using it, it doesn't mean they wanted someone to make it. I didn't demand Qt, but here it is.

Don't say a thing about my Gnome! You Windows-like KDE interface Gnome stack works at least with 3 UIs as of today and are not driven by one devel paid by an evil MS friendly company, named Nokia. So this is the proof: they did not want even Mono, they wanted .Net from Microsoft.
Qt is also oddly slow, did you try to make a small with application using QWidgets and try to compare it with Xaml/WinForms stack? Try to make a project with 10 forms and first form starts the second and so on, and try to see how much asks for a build/rebuild cycle. And use Mono for the same thing. Use Python for the same thing.
As for me, Mono is somewhere in between: 80% of C++ performance, 10x shorter compiler times. As tooling, reflection is really cool to be used and works from scratch! Try for fun to setup an unit test and to run it using QTest and compare to NUnit/JUnit.
At the end, try to profile your application: in .Net or Mono you have sampling profiler pro bono. C++? Valgrind... (aka running things 10 times slower to find leaks), KCacheGrind (running 10 times slower to find a profile session). Running things under profiler in Mono/.Net!? 10-30% drop in performance but that's it!
In the meantime, I am just thinking how fun is to write a multi-threaded application in C++/Qt: memory corruptions, more inconsistent memory managers (QObject memory model, boost smart pointers, Stl auto_ptr, your own management, stack and heap pointers/.Net world is mostly heap and stack), memory leaks, and you add some minutes compile time... absolutely fun, as you try to understand the template errors.
Yet is possible to write in Qt a simple web service consumer/producer, without a need of XSP (which comes with Mono package) that offers a lot more fun.

[kraftman]

Don't say a thing about my Gnome! You Windows-like KDE interface Gnome stack works at least with 3 UIs as of today and are not driven by one devel paid by an evil MS friendly company, named Nokia. So this is the proof: they did not want even Mono, they wanted .Net from Microsoft.
Qt is also oddly slow, did you try to make a small with application using QWidgets and try to compare it with Xaml/WinForms stack?

I didn't compare something like this. It's enough Win95 2D experience was far better than current Linux (no matter Qt or Gtk) and one of the most important goals should be fixing 2D imho. Btw. Gnome was partially driven by MS friendly company named Novell (+Ximian de MS lovers). If you're saying Gnome 3 works with Unity I can say KDE does the same as well. KDE does even work with Compiz while Gnome 3 doesn't. I don't like Nokia at all. I hope they will end exactly like Novell did. Qt can always be forked if something like this will be needed. There's still no proof they wanted .Net, but I don't care too much about this 'issue'. Someone just gave misleading response, so I wanted him to try a little harder.

As for the other part of your post I'm not convinced. There are no good mono applications which could change my opinion. When I compare Amarok to Banshee - Amarok wins, Shotwell to F-Spot - Shotwell wins. How many mono applications are there? Less than ten probably. However, keep in mind I wasn't arguing against mono in this thread, but about Icaza. I can always change my opinion about mono, but there's too early to even try. It's obvious people like Icaza and some (ex)Novell folks were simply hurting mono. They consider PR is something what will convince Linux community to use .Net. They're simply wrong. PR talk is only successful for short period of time. If they think seriously about .Net on Linux they should change their talk and start to be fair with the community. Speak like a normal people rather than advertising guys.

[V!NCENT]

Gnomes advantage is that it is. practicaly idiot proof. Mono's advantage is tht it is idiot proof.

But tell me something... What high-profile killer software is written in Gtk and Mono? Why is serious killer software on Windows written in C++ on top of Win32?

The idea that I'm getting with. Net and C# folk so far is that they don't even know what an API is.They learned C# and. Net crap in school and simply end up doing sysadmin shit (no offence, this is a software engineering turnaround ) instead of writing anything even remotely serious.

So BlaclStar, mister awesome, what have you written in that perfect language of yours that rival high quality Qt applications? Do you even get remotely close? If Qt and C++ sucks so much, then why does all good software get written in it (or win32 for that manner)?

Meanwhile where is the SVG in Gnome? Where is the superior window management? Where is the smartphone and netbook interface at? Where is the killer video editor? Where is the professional photography software? Where is the resolution independant scaling? Come at me...

[urfe]

Gnomes advantage is that it is. practicaly idiot proof. Mono's advantage is tht it is idiot proof.

But tell me something... What high-profile killer software is written in Gtk and Mono? Why is serious killer software on Windows written in C++ on top of Win32?

The idea that I'm getting with. Net and C# folk so far is that they don't even know what an API is.They learned C# and. Net crap in school and simply end up doing sysadmin shit (no offence, this is a software engineering turnaround ) instead of writing anything even remotely serious.

So BlaclStar, mister awesome, what have you written in that perfect language of yours that rival high quality Qt applications? Do you even get remotely close? If Qt and C++ sucks so much, then why does all good software get written in it (or win32 for that manner)?

Meanwhile where is the SVG in Gnome? Where is the superior window management? Where is the smartphone and netbook interface at? Where is the killer video editor? Where is the professional photography software? Where is the resolution independant scaling? Come at me...

If people are using GTK/Mono is because they're comfortable with it/suitable for their specific needs.

Also, your statement that people can't right anything serious in any language/toolkit - I hope that wasn't a honest remark.

[urfe]

Oh, and Miguel de Icaza is hardly the diplomat himself (linuxhater). I don't know about you, but I think it's far worse to be an anonymous coward to cover up your true feelings than to be a bit ill-mannered.

Ill-manneres - when one can't be eloquent enough.

PS: Ooops, worte 'right' instead of 'write' in the previous post. Sorry!

[V!NCENT]

If people are using GTK/Mono is because they're comfortable with it/suitable for their specific needs.

What needs does GTK/Mono provide that Qt doesn't? I am only seeing disadvantages instead of advantages over using Qt. This is an honest question, but I don't think people can answer it. I wouldn't ask it if the GTK/Mono wasn't attacking Qt.

Also, your statement that people can't right anything serious in any language/toolkit - I hope that wasn't a honest remark.

I am not saying they can't. I am saying that I have not seen any proof to back it up, whatsoever.

[BlackStar]

But tell me something... What high-profile killer software is written in Gtk and Mono? Why is serious killer software on Windows written in C++ on top of Win32?

Legacy, mainly. Even Visual Studio is half .Net half native nowadays and that's as how profile as you can get (involving somewhere like 1500 developers in the latest release).

The idea that I'm getting with. Net and C# folk so far is that they don't even know what an API is.They learned C# and. Net crap in school and simply end up doing sysadmin shit (no offence, this is a software engineering turnaround ) instead of writing anything even remotely serious.

Funny thing, my school didn't teach C#. We were taught many things, like C, C++, Pascal, Java, ML, Ocaml, Haskell and various assembly instruction sets (8088, 8086, MIPS, ARM) applied in different environments (application/kernel/web programming) but C# was curiously absent from the curriculum. Same with Python, sadly.

So BlaclStar, mister awesome, what have you written in that perfect language of yours that rival high quality Qt applications? Do you even get remotely close? If Qt and C++ sucks so much, then why does all good software get written in it (or win32 for that manner)?

Mister awesome? That's me, indeed, even though C# is not *my* language. I wish it was but I'm not *that* awesome.

But why are you comparing C# with Qt or Win32? C# is a language that can use both APIs - so what's the point?

I consider C++ a language well past its prime-time. It will still be around in a few decades - hell, COBOL still exists! - but it's no longer the first choice for an increasingly large amount of applications. Not only that, but it's also thunderously absent from the quickest growing sectors, i.e. mobile apps and web apps.

As for myself, I work with C++, C# and various other languages depending on the goal. I'm long past the language wars mindset - languages are tools and the more you know the better you become at your craft. I defend C# because it is a surprisingly well-designed and versatile tool - nothing more, nothing less. I defend Mono because it allows me to use C# on Linux - nothing more, nothing less. Take away either and it's merely one less tool in my arsenal.

Meanwhile where is the SVG in Gnome? Where is the superior window management? Where is the smartphone and netbook interface at? Where is the killer video editor? Where is the professional photography software? Where is the resolution independant scaling? Come at me...

Wrong thread.

Besides, KDE sucks.

[BlackStar]

What needs does GTK/Mono provide that Qt doesn't? I am only seeing disadvantages instead of advantages over using Qt. This is an honest question, but I don't think people can answer it.

It offers at least one significant advantage: it exists. Just being there as an alternative is sometimes enough. Haven't you heard the motto? "Build it and they will come."

Of course GTK offers more than that, otherwise it's user base wouldn't have been so large. For instance, it offers a C API that's very simple to call from almost any programming language - whereas Qt is C++ and it's much harder to wrap.

Of course, you aren't really interested in technical reasons, are you?

I wouldn't ask it if the GTK/Mono wasn't attacking Qt.

How is "the GTK/Mono" attacking Qt? That's pure paranoia.

[urfe]

What needs does GTK/Mono provide that Qt doesn't? I am only seeing disadvantages instead of advantages over using Qt. This is an honest question, but I don't think people can answer it.

What about the least technical one, personal taste? The same reason I prefer to write a quick Java app instead of using C++, for example.

If some are using GTK/Mono, it's clear that they get everything they need - why should certain distinct but irrelevant aspects matter, then? Because this is basically a war of assumptions - 'MS will sue', 'Icaza is a traitor', 'Gnome was never better than KDE', 'No one needs Mono apps' - stated as absolute facts, when users and developers always had a choice.

I wouldn't ask it if the GTK/Mono wasn't attacking Qt.

The extremes are not helping.

I am not saying they can't. I am saying that I have not seen any proof to back it up, whatsoever.

The computer that flew Apollo 11 to the moon was programmed in assembly. The huge step into space does not mean current languages are irrelevant

[ean5533]

But tell me something... What high-profile killer software is written in Gtk and Mono? Why is serious killer software on Windows written in C++ on top of Win32?

The idea that I'm getting with. Net and C# folk so far is that they don't even know what an API is.They learned C# and. Net crap in school and simply end up doing sysadmin shit (no offence, this is a software engineering turnaround ) instead of writing anything even remotely serious.

I learned C and C++ in school nearly a decade before ever laying eyes on a line of C# code. Yet here I sit as a professional software developer working in a Windows-only environment, and 90% of the code I write for work is written in C# (The other 10% is various scripting languages).

The question you've posed is If C#/.NET is so great, why is all of the best software written in C++ with win32 libraries? The problem is that you're asking the wrong question. You aren't even acknowledging the true purpose of C#/.NET. Let me state it clearly: The purpose of C#/.NET is not to write the best, most efficient, most flexible software possible, it's to get shit done.

Rapid application development. That's all. C#/.NET code will never be as efficient as well-written, optimized C(++) code. However, when my boss asks me to write a program to generate some custom reports for our sales manager -- oh and by the way it needs to be done in 3 weeks while still maintaining your other duties, and it needs to be usable by people who barely know what a computer is -- he doesn't give a damn how extensible the code is or if it takes 10% more CPU cycles when it runs. He gives a damn that I get it done in 3 weeks. Using C#/.NET, I can get shit done in half the time it would take me to write it with C++ and native libraries. And remember, this is coming from someone with nearly four times more experience in C++ than C#.

Now, let's migrate out of the Windows-only bubble and try to apply that same logic to Linux. Qt is an excellent toolkit. Very powerful, very extensible, very scalable. I love it. But it takes too long to get anything done. If I want to prototype some software in a hurry, I can't do it with C++. It just takes too damn long to write the code. Yes, there are Qt bindings to python and other languages that are quicker, but then you either lose the super-fast visual GUI builder or you have to start futzing around with .ui converter programs (which are buggy).

So my point is that I would love it if Mono became popular in the Linux world. Right now it seems like mono is only about 3/4 done, because it still doesn't let me write prototype graphical software in a hurry. Qt can't do it either, and I don't even want to discuss Gtk. So, more power to Miguel, he's on the path to helping me get shit done.

Finally, an aside: You asked why one doesn't see more software written with mono. Perhaps it's because every time someone tries to write a piece of software with mono, they get shit on by the FOSS community. Consider that.