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[deanjo]

Huh, and this affirmation? Are you a power plant expert? Do you know the cost associated with exploiting a power plant at 60% or 80% or 100% varying along the day, human, materials , logistic, emissions...?? Or may be you have simply no idea and pointed your personal point of view?

Well lets put it this way, I share beers and food with the boffins at the Saskatchewan Research Council which does a shitload of research in those exact matters. I'll take that over a wikipedia article referring to a portion of a study that was sponsored by corporate giants any day.

Well at least they make studies / statistics, which can be more or less accurate, but those studies are not based on personal opinions.

It isn't based on "personal opinion". It is based on fact relayed directly from the people actually doing the studies.

[Jimbo]

Well lets put it this way, I share beers and food with the boffins at the Saskatchewan Research Council which does a shitload of research in those exact matters. I'll take that over a wikipedia article referring to a portion of a study that was sponsored by corporate giants any day.

It isn't based on "personal opinion". It is based on fact relayed directly from the people actually doing the studies.

Basically what you are saying here is that "a portion of a study that was sponsored by corporate giants any day" and from here you extrapolate to:

-"Unless you are operating that power source at near 100% efficiency you are not achieving any reduction in emissions at all"
-"the research to give the appearance the the research is justified in order to get more research funding"

Luckily, at least some politicians and some engineers don't share beers and food with the boffins at the Saskatchewan Research Council and have made some improvements over the last years about the stand-by power consumption problem:

- July 2006, the British Government announced it would outlaw televisions and video players that exceed the maximum standby-mode power consumption standard (1 watt).
- July 2007, California's 2005 appliance standards came into effect, limiting external power supply standby power to 0.5 watts.
- July 2008, the European Commission accepted a proposal to reduce standby power consumption to either 1 W (if there is a reactivation function) or 2 W (if there is an information or status display) by 2010, which will be halved to 0.5 and 1 watt, respectively, by 2012.

[deanjo]

Basically what you are saying here is that "a portion of a study that was sponsored by corporate giants any day" and from here you extrapolate to:

-"Unless you are operating that power source at near 100% efficiency you are not achieving any reduction in emissions at all"
-"the research to give the appearance the the research is justified in order to get more research funding"

Luckily, at least some politicians and some engineers don't share beers and food with the boffins at the Saskatchewan Research Council and have made some improvements over the last years about the stand-by power consumption problem:

- July 2006, the British Government announced it would outlaw televisions and video players that exceed the maximum standby-mode power consumption standard (1 watt).
- July 2007, California's 2005 appliance standards came into effect, limiting external power supply standby power to 0.5 watts.
- July 2008, the European Commission accepted a proposal to reduce standby power consumption to either 1 W (if there is a reactivation function) or 2 W (if there is an information or status display) by 2010, which will be halved to 0.5 and 1 watt, respectively, by 2012.

And yet the net change in world emissions have not dropped since those have been in place. Using less energy but wasting more. Until they have a way to store generated energy in a effective manner, small energy reduction measures like these mean SFA.

[Jimbo]

This is the problem, that it is not "a small reduction measure", equipment in stand-by mode is consuming 24h/7.

If the manufactures have the freedom of mounting bad transformers, bad chips... making equipment with 5-10W snadby mode consumption, that multiplied by the high number of videos, PCs, consoles, TVs... that people are purchasing today, the problem transforms into a huge one.

Users have to be aware of the problem too, purchase good products (energy star 5), and totally power off some equipment. It's easy to power off your pc at night and power on the next morning.

[deanjo]

This is the problem, that it is not "a small reduction measure", equipment in stand-by mode is consuming 24h/7.

If the manufactures have the freedom of mounting bad transformers, bad chips... making equipment with 5-10W snadby mode consumption, that multiplied by the high number of videos, PCs, consoles, TVs... that people are purchasing today, the problem transforms in a huge one.

Users have to be aware of the problem too, purchase good products (energy star 5), and totally power off some equipment. It's easy to power off your pc at night and power on when your are awake,

It is a small power reduction and it has no impact on emissions. Electrical networks are designed to be able to provide a minimum of the capacity of the largest generator plus roughly 20% over capacity for short term demands. They operate with a reserve 100% of the time. If the demand extends to something larger that is where the power grid kicks in to supply that extra demand. At no regular interval is there a case of no reserve available on the grid. Your emissions are not reduced as long as there us a surplus of energy produced (which is wasted by it not being utilized).

[zhark]

And yet the net change in world emissions have not dropped since those have been in place. Using less energy but wasting more. Until they have a way to store generated energy in a effective manner, small energy reduction measures like these mean SFA.

Excuse me, but are you actually portraying that the amount of power used (on standby appliances or otherwise) have zero impact on global emissions? Thats just pure nonsense. Power plants are built as a response to consumer demand, and hydro-electric power plants can store power for later usage as well as quickly bringing production up or down based on usage. To my knowledge the same goes for coal and oil. I know this isn't applicable to nuclear power, but even if most of your countries power is produced by these, it is still supplemented by other more flexible sources (local or import) to account for unexpected surges in demand. It really shouldn't be necessary to take this argument any further.

[Jimbo]

It is a small power reduction and it has no impact on emissions. Electrical networks are designed to be able to provide a minimum of the capacity of the largest generator plus roughly 20% over capacity for short term demands. They operate with a reserve 100% of the time. If the demand extends to something larger that is where the power grid kicks in to supply that extra demand. At no regular interval is there a case of no reserve available on the grid. Your emissions are not reduced as long as there us a surplus of energy produced (which is wasted by it not being utilized).

This is totally wrong, by the reasons I already exposed, uffff , Power plants are dimensioned to cover user demands, stand-by represents 7-13% of house power consumption...

[deanjo]

Excuse me, but are you actually portraying that the amount of power used (on standby appliances or otherwise) have zero impact on global emissions? Thats just pure nonsense. Power plants are built as a response to consumer demand, and hydro-electric power plants can store power for later usage as well as quickly bringing production up or down based on usage.

Absolutely they are built to respond with consumer demand not to the point where plants operate so close to the edge that it requires constant adjustments where even a 20% increase in load requires ramping up additional power generation.

[deanjo]

This is totally wrong, by the reasons I already exposed, uffff , Power plants are dimensioned to cover user demands, stand-by represents 7-13% of house power consumption...

Ummm no, power plants are most certainly not dimensioned to cover just user demands (let alone just house power). Pretty much every plant out there has been designed to exceed the current demands within the expected lifespan of the plant within it's serviced area. Surplus is then sold to others in need.

[Jimbo]

yeah, power plants are designed to cover alien demans! wtf!