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Thread: Gentoo-Based Sabayon Linux 6.0 Released

  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    You did not answer any of my questions. From my experience Sabayon is bloatware with nothing Gentoo left.
    Bloatware seems a little harsh. It's only a 2G DVD, not especially large, but maybe you're a opensource purist that doesn't like the included ATI, Nvidia blobs? Nothing wrong with that but the criticism could be better defined then. BTW what distro do you use? Is it a secret?

    Sulfur and entropy use the pre-compiled packages, or you can run emerge like Gentoo and compile your own.

    Sabayon Forums View topic - 3.5 - Entropy vs Portage
    Mon Jun 27 2011 23:43:30 GMT-0400 (EDT)
    http://forum.sabayon.org/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=14055
    If you go portage you can edit/create any and all config files and it's actually recommended to do that if you go portage and than rebuild your system to a leaner system. You can still use entropy but it should be done in limited usage as the packages are pre-built to different configs and pending on your configs that can enable or disable wanted/unwanted features.

    If you want to upgrade world:

    Sabayon Forums View topic - Portage - Bash blocked by Emerge Cant update world
    Mon Jun 27 2011 23:41:34 GMT-0400 (EDT)
    http://forum.sabayon.org/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=12213
    emerge -1 =app-shells/bash-3.2_p17-r1
    emerge portage

    The forums are very helpful. Thanks to Wolfden for the previous quotes. My interest is in a stable up to date distro that I don't have to mess with to keep working. Opensuse-tumbleweed and sabayon seem to be capable of that. Opensuse actually has a more most recent kernel but requires opensource drivers, Sabayon uses the blobs but moves them out of the kernel so video doesn't break when the kernel updates, not sure what that does to performance, but that's not my main interest and I haven't noticed a difference, so far.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    Bloatware seems a little harsh. It's only a 2G DVD, not especially large, but maybe you're a opensource purist that doesn't like the included ATI, Nvidia blobs? Nothing wrong with that but the criticism could be better defined then.
    Bloatware is not about size, but about inability to see though the system.
    From beginning, there were distributions which had their package management system adapted to modification and as such granting easy transparent changes in system;
    and there were systems which simply, like pure LFS, drop binaries on top until mess happens, very similar to winblows.

    I have been testing RR and later sabayon several times, and each time I failed to understand any pro's of this distro.
    A very similar distros to this were - dreamlinux and foresight, some base taken, pieces thrown over and the heap starts falling apart - its only matter of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    BTW what distro do you use? Is it a secret?
    Gentoo. However I approached gentoo separately and much later after first contact with RR.
    I plan to move to calculate linux, because it does many things right - it is collective effort to push desktop and small business gentoo variations.
    The difference? You take gentoo and modify it - destination desktop and server (install dvd and fast system unroll included).
    But you write every change in ebuilds, if it is improvement - to gentoo directly, if it is own non-cannon modification in own overlay.
    Then, the system is really gentoo (but respin), really uses gentoo portage and really 100% gentoo compatible.
    It is like buying ready coffee drinks instead of growing on own plantage, with only this choice being difference, not compatibility.
    More than that, the overlay has own profiles and is also visible from official gentoo tree (layman).
    Imagine you can do stage3 gentoo install and immediately switch to calculate profile within gentoo itself and "upgrade" your gentoo to calculate. Or backwards.
    You can cut and paste system with it just as you do with gentoo.
    This is called gentoo-based distribution.


    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    Sulfur and entropy use the pre-compiled packages, or you can run emerge like Gentoo and compile your own.
    Binary packaging has been weak side of gentoo for a reason... this is a source distribution for sake of easy modification and customisation.
    However not everyone wants to customize every ebuild... mostly its use flags and sometimes cflags help accelerate a bit.
    The code itself often uses inline optimizations, making recompile nearly useless and sometimes dependencies are not that hard (see apt/synaptic "recommends" features).
    So using binary packages, where it makes sense to use them(like cutting down installation time) is really a good addition.
    For this matter, gentoo own portage has whole set of tools to generate binary package and install it. Portage tree also includes binary packages and tracks their state hard so they do not segfault over time. But this is only done for reason of 1)popular and HUGE package without any useflags that make much sense 2)binary-only package

    Now, "sulfur" and "entropy" apart from being very strange, hard to associate, words (adding complexity on top of existing portage system) are no way even near apt-get.
    Seriously, waiting for sulfur to update the package tree in FIVE minutes, watching Ads at same time, without ability to use ANYTHING gentoo or features similar to apt (recommends, optional dependencies). Sulfur and entropy are not improvement of gentoo, they are brain-replacement, they conflict with portage. Why not to take apt-get instead? Why not generate ebuild-to-dpkg script and make dpkg gentoo repo?

    Apt is state of art, the speed and features which it has are simply overwhelming. But you can't use it with portage too, because it is binary fixed-version dependency-tracking system with possibility to pull source code as well, but never to use source code instead or mixed with binary.

    The sabayon idea of having already compiled tree conflicts ITSELF with gentoo. It is no way improving gentoo, NOR it is gentoo.
    Gentoo ofers multiple versions - entropy castrates that and many more.
    Only preselected unchangable versions, hard dependencies, inability to use anything from what makes gentoo - gentoo(use flags, profiles etc).
    Its just huge and slow blob of blobs, sitting on top of distribution and blocking gentoo from being gentoo. And it is not polished binary package manager, why not take already polished ones instead of inventing the bycicle?

    The binary package manager that gentoo could really profit of, is completely different from anything that exists.
    I guess it would be nearly completely autonomic, decentric p2p-hosted, yet VERY firmly synced to official portage tree, system, that could be installed on any (user) machine, with administrator providing it with cache-space, network bandwith and ability to offload locally built packages to that p2p tree(just like torrent, but automated).
    The system that will hook into portage and on every emerge (if enabled to do so), lookup if already built package with completely same flags exists on the network.
    Then, judging from package size, priority (maybe user does not want to build, at all), the system would decide - to launch emerge, or to pull the existing package.

    THAT would be improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    Sabayon Forums View topic - 3.5 - Entropy vs Portage
    Mon Jun 27 2011 23:43:30 GMT-0400 (EDT)
    http://forum.sabayon.org/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=14055
    If you go portage you can edit/create any and all config files and it's actually recommended to do that if you go portage and than rebuild your system to a leaner system. You can still use entropy but it should be done in limited usage as the packages are pre-built to different configs and pending on your configs that can enable or disable wanted/unwanted features.
    Exactly. This means, sabayon package manager and gentoo package manager - conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    If you want to upgrade world:

    Sabayon Forums View topic - Portage - Bash blocked by Emerge Cant update world
    Mon Jun 27 2011 23:41:34 GMT-0400 (EDT)
    http://forum.sabayon.org/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=12213
    emerge -1 =app-shells/bash-3.2_p17-r1
    emerge portage
    This speaks of "quality" of built packages.
    If it is required to pull a package once, that would make portage functional, BUT this package had already different version (I guess more latest and incompatible with portage) on existing system, means they either do not use portage to build all packages, or they mess up everything. Strange case.

    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    Sabayon uses the blobs but moves them out of the kernel so video doesn't break when the kernel updates, not sure what that does to performance, but that's not my main interest and I haven't noticed a difference, so far.
    I do not use calculate linux, but I have talked with its main developer before and he commented that sabayon has very strange habbit of putting everything in kernel and every driver in initramfs.
    Calculate kernel generator, on contrary, does live-check of present hardware and puts only that into initramfs. The rest resides as normal modules on root partition(if installed). Not only this approach is more efficient, it also much more sane.
    The only difference between gentoo and calculate are profiles (prefered packages), some own ebuilds(which are available on portage), as well as fact that most of the stuff is delivered in prebuilt state. But not in blob-like mess.

    Sorry, if I'm wrong somewhere, in fact I would really really appreciate if you tell me your opinion.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    55

    Cool Sabayon

    Hi crazycheese, you know a lot more about the inner workings of linux that I do. I like to be able to edit the config file if I really need to, but mostly I don't bother.Tweaking the GUI's of various apps usually works for me. I agree that the portage-entropy relationship is strained at best. It does make Sabayon unique among the distros tho and gives a newbie a working os immediately and using portage a chance to see what source compiling can do. I agree it isn't the same result as Gentoo, but it doesn't require near the same level of knowledge to get started.

    Sulfur seems a lot faster with this release and while the interface is quite different from everyone else it does make sense after a while, there is a method to the seeming madness. They do have a lot of names for package management. I'd dare say the most of any distro: sulfur, entropy, magneto, portage, and emerge, and I might be missing one or two. Like in most distros sticking to one way of updating works best. That said I'm sticking with sulfur now for updates and everything's been stable so far. It's definitely not a substitute for Gentoo.

    I like openSUSE and YAST a lot too. Zipper works easily from the command line and integrates well. "zipper dup --from Tumbleweed" works very well at keeping everything updated to near cutting edge and stable, at least so far. I'm impressed so far.

    I've seen a lot progress in the stability, useability, features, and ease of use in linux distros through the years and it seems progress is increasing more rapidly of late. Probably form hardware taking a greater interest in it's value to them. I guess ideally I'd like something like this in a computer and os, might change a couple physical parameters, but no biggies, so to speak. Unfortunately we're many years away from that.

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