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Thread: NetworkManager Manages Some Enhancements

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    Default NetworkManager Manages Some Enhancements

    Phoronix: NetworkManager Manages Some Enhancements

    Dan Williams is announcing the release of NetworkManager 0.9.2, which is coming shortly after the release of NetworkManager 0.8.6. Dan also notes several interesting features in the pipeline for NetworkManager 0.9.4...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTAxMzk

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    Note that NetworkManager is kind of part of the 'desktop infrastructure' / 'plumbing' club; it's not really GNOME-centric. Yes, it is extremely common to see nm-applet running on a gnome desktop, but then it's also quite common on KDE4, and even Xfce. It's in that category of DE-agnostic middleware with PulseAudio and Mesa. Networking, sound, and graphics...

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    Quote Originally Posted by allquixotic View Post
    Note that NetworkManager is kind of part of the 'desktop infrastructure' ... It's in that category of DE-agnostic middleware with PulseAudio...
    The first thing I do after installing is "apt-get remove network-manager pulseaudio". And I'm much happier for it. Both network and sound are now stable on all my machines. Dan shouldn't be drinking so many of those pink cocktails. And I've never been quite sure what pills Lennart is on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbergman27 View Post
    The first thing I do after installing is "apt-get remove network-manager pulseaudio". And I'm much happier for it. Both network and sound are now stable on all my machines. Dan shouldn't be drinking so many of those pink cocktails. And I've never been quite sure what pills Lennart is on.
    You should also recompile your kernel at each boot, after all removing default stuff and criticizing it makes you so macho, and while you're at it, don't forget to write your own OS, which would of course be better than those stupid peoples work - like that of Lennart - anyone knows you're so much smarter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cl333r View Post
    You should also recompile your kernel at each boot, after all removing default stuff and criticizing it makes you so macho, and while you're at it, don't forget to write your own OS, which would of course be better than those stupid peoples work - like that of Lennart - anyone knows you're so much smarter.
    As much as possible, I try to stick to defaults. I take the pragmatic approach. And in general, Pulseaudio and NetworkManager are the only packages that pragmatism directs me to remove. Network Manager is nice for laptops & netbooks. But far more trouble than it's worth for desktops. What Pulseaudio is good for, I'm not sure. The best answer I've gotten from others is that it adds desirable features to sound hardware so ancient that even I don't have a testbed for it. (Simultaneous input from multiple apps.) And also for sound software that doesn't include its own volume control. (Though I'm not sure what that would be.) Near as I can tell, Pulseaudio is all pain for no gain. It's buggy as hell.
    Last edited by sbergman27; 11-11-2011 at 12:30 AM.

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    Thanks for the correct spelling of Smörgåsbord! /The Swede

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    As much as possible, I try to stick to defaults. I take the pragmatic approach. And in general, Pulseaudio and NetworkManager are the only packages that pragmatism directs me to remove. Network Manager is nice for laptops & netbooks. But far more trouble than it's worth for desktops.
    As long as your distro isn't shit then Network-manager is fine for desktops. Either you just leave it alone and never touch it and just let it do it's job... or if you have special requirements then you go ahead and manually configure your interfaces like you should. Either way Network-Manager can handle it just fine.


    What Pulseaudio is good for, I'm not sure.
    It makes it possible to have kick-ass audio for Linux. It makes it possible to manage audio I/O easily and configure your hardware in a sane manner. It makes it possible to migrate audio transparently from one device to another and combine multiple audio outputs easily. Also it enables network transparent audio to go along with remote applications and other such things.

    The best answer I've gotten from others is that it adds desirable features to sound hardware so ancient that even I don't have a testbed for it.
    Hardly.

    Modern hardware does not have hardware mixing, typically. It's actually makes your hardware more expensive with little benefit. If you want to have hardware mixing then you have to go out of your way and spend more money and often will end up with a slightly worse system as a result.

    Also if you are a audiophile type or want to use your audio for creating audio then you can get better results with hardware that has no mixing. With software mixing you can do fancy things and use much higher quality algorithms then is possible in hardware. With software mixing you can actually turn it off, which is typically not the case with hardware.. So you can get lower latency and better audio quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drag View Post
    As long as your distro isn't shit...
    That's a pretty open-ended out you left yourself there. NetworkMangager falls in to that category of software that I label "I'm smarter than you". It unilaterally makes decisions for you. (Though I haven't used Windows in 15 years, this was my main gripe about it. And it doesn't appear that things have changed much.) NetworkManager is a life-saver for portable equipment. But for a static environment, a static configuration is always going to do better than a busy-body daemon. I run Linux on a hundred or so cash registers. And believe me, you *do not* want to leave the networking up to the default NetworkManager in that scenario. On *any* distro.

    It makes it possible to have kick-ass audio for Linux. It makes it possible to manage audio I/O easily and configure your hardware in a sane manner. It makes it possible to migrate audio transparently from one device to another and combine multiple audio outputs easily. Also it enables network transparent audio to go along with remote applications and other such things.
    We were doing this long before PA. (Yes, network transparency can be nice. But ESD, simple as it is, works better.) And with much better stability. I spot test from time to time. Too often does sound just mysteriously stop, requiring PA to be restarted. On a variety of hardware. So it's not "a problem with my configuration" as people love to say. Never once have I missed any of PA's supposed features. Maybe a few people out there do need it. Let them yum or apt-get it.

    IMO, Lennart flits from project to project a bit much. I think he's looking to destroy our init system next with his cool-sounding, but fatally flawed socket-based fiasco.
    Last edited by sbergman27; 11-11-2011 at 11:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbergman27 View Post
    I think he's looking to destroy our init system next with his cool-sounding, but fatally flawed socket-based fiasco.
    It's the distributors who choose which init system to use and they have quite unanimously choosen systemd. When you say that the socked-based system is flawed I guess you have solid data to back it up. Is it a secret or what might be the reason why distributors aren't concerned about these so called "flaws"?

    Ubuntu like every other mainstream distribution try to provide a good solution for variety of different formfactors like desktops, laptops and netbooks that works out of the box... and you think these distribution shouldn't ship with NetworkManager? It's also quite common to connect your laptop or netbook to external monitor with speakers, use bluetooth headphones or just swap the audio output, Pulseaudio makes this smooth and easy. You might want to consider that the world doesn't spin around you and with most likely hood the distribution or the software that you use isn't developed with your exact desires in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teho View Post
    It's the distributors who choose which init system to use and they have quite unanimously choosen systemd.
    What color is the sky on your planet?

    When you say that the socked-based (sic) system is flawed I guess you have solid data to back it up.
    Race conditions and deadlock. The Upstart devs experimented with this admittedly attractive idea. But it turned out to be something of a bug minefield. I'm not going to do the research for you. But it shouldn't be too hard for you to investigate.

    Ubuntu like every other mainstream distribution try to provide a good solution for variety of different formfactors like desktops, laptops and netbooks that works out of the box... and you think these distribution shouldn't ship with NetworkManager?
    Read what I said. I don't think that most distributions should ship with PulseAudio. Most should probably ship with NetworkManager. But many people are better off removing NetworkManager. Certainly, any machine in a static environment, for which reliable network connectivity is important, should not have NetworkManager installed. Note that simply setting up the interface statically is not enough. NetworkManager still interferes. Turning NetworkManager off in the init system doesn't necessarily work. (Probably a distro bug.) Removing NetworkManager is the sure-fire cure. Do consider that the network connectivity of the ~100 cash registers or so that I administer is mission critical. But desktop users also benefit from reliable network connectivity. It's just that NetworkManager's flaws are more apparent to me. When connectivity fails, I get emergency calls.

    (What are your usage credentials, BTW?)

    It's also quite common to connect your laptop or netbook to external monitor with speakers, use bluetooth headphones or just swap the audio output, Pulseaudio makes this smooth and easy.
    I'll let you know if ever there is a day that PulseAudio saves me more grief than it causes.

    You might want to consider that the world doesn't spin around you... blah blah blah
    I'm simply presenting a pragmatic view based upon my experience deploying Linux on business desktops. Neither NetworkManager or PulseAudio are likely to kill anyone. (Fingers crossed.) And if you like them, you are certainly free to use them. ;-)
    Last edited by sbergman27; 11-11-2011 at 02:12 PM.

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