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Thread: Radeon Evergreen HDMI Audio Code Is Still M.I.A.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post
    You might as well join the occupy movement. Your reasoning seems to be in sync with those guys.
    no I'm a Pirate.

  2. #22
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    I've seen a lot of unfortunate use of the industry propaganda term "IP" in here, which stands for Intellectual Property. It's an umbrella term designed to confuse people about several different and not always similar laws.

    It would be nicer for propagandists like Alex Deucher and John Bridgman to unmuddle the situation and use the words copyright or patented when appropriate, and to come out and admit they're not allowed to tell us how some parts of their hardware work due to contracts that AMD willfully entered into with Microsoft and Apple.

    They're not struggling to help open source, if they were they wouldn't have kissed Microsoft's ass in those damned dirty backroom DRM deals.

    Don't piss on us and say it's raining please. As for the reverse engineered HDMI audio support from Rafał Miłecki, thank you so much. If we had to rely on AMD sitting there with their thumbs up their asses over back alley Microsoft deals they don't want to take the blame for, then something tells me nobody using a Radeon would have HDMI audio support for a very long time if ever.

    It'd be nice if someone from AMD could also explain why their hardware is so badly designed that HDMI audio itself has been intertwined with the DRM called HDCP.

    I would venture a guess that the two really have nothing to do with one another and we're getting more lies from AMD because their masters in organized crime don't want HDMI audio there at all because it brings the open source community a step closer to being able to easily watch Blu Ray movies.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaemonFC View Post
    I've seen a lot of unfortunate use of the industry propaganda term "IP" in here, which stands for Intellectual Property. It's an umbrella term designed to confuse people about several different and not always similar laws.
    It's also a convenient term to cover a half dozen different issues (some related to standards licensing, some related to trade secrets, all involving copyright in some form). In cases where I can't go into details, what umbrella term would you recommend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaemonFC View Post
    It would be nicer for propagandists like Alex Deucher and John Bridgman to unmuddle the situation and use the words copyright or patented when appropriate
    See above. The whole point is that I can't go into details while the issues are being worked out. This shouldn't be a surprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaemonFC View Post
    and to come out and admit they're not allowed to tell us how some parts of their hardware work due to contracts that AMD and the rest of the PC industry willfully entered into with Microsoft and Apple and a number of other groups in order to be able to participate in the largest parts of the PC market.
    Fixed that for you.

    Not sure what your point is here. We've been saying this since we started the open source project. We've also been saying that it's not obvious where the exact line is between what we can and can't tell you about, and that in some cases it's an expensive and time-consuming process to figure it out for each different area. We focused on core things first like 3D acceleration but even that took a couple of years and significant effort from a lot of people internally.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaemonFC View Post
    They're not struggling to help open source, if they were they wouldn't have kissed Microsoft's ass in those damned dirty backroom DRM deals.
    You mean "we would make hardware that could only be sold in 1-2% of the PC market" ? Seriously, I don't know why you feel compelled to blame us for everything in the PC industry and make sneaky suggestions that somehow "it's just us".

    When you're ready to talk about serious proposals that would not drastically reduce our GPU business let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaemonFC View Post
    It'd be nice if someone from AMD could also explain why their hardware is so badly designed that HDMI audio itself has been intertwined with the DRM called HDCP.

    I would venture a guess that the two really have nothing to do with one another and we're getting more lies from AMD because their masters in organized crime don't want HDMI audio there at all because it brings the open source community a step closer to being able to easily watch Blu Ray movies.
    HDCP is only one part of it. I wish it were that simple.

    Not sure where your "badly designed" thinking is coming from. Integrating blocks makes the chip smaller, and lets us give you more performance and features for the same $$. If you call that bad design I don't know how to respond. Integrating blocks also has a downside in terms of making it more difficult to support with open source drivers; the challenge is finding the right balance.
    Last edited by bridgman; 12-05-2011 at 11:43 AM.

  4. #24
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    @DaemonFC

    Wow man, no need to be so hostile. If I had to guess why HDMI audio is encumbered with DRM in the hardware, I'd say that it's because the development on these GPUs began several years before ATI/AMD decided they wanted to support open-source drivers. Thus they took the easiest/default route with integrating various bits of hardware IP and this is how it ended up. It's not 'badly designed' - in my experience the hardware works rather beautifully well in the environment for which it was intended. Neither does it mean they aren't doing the best they can with regards to open-source on the hardware that actually exists right now. They are.

    Also, AMD's people have said several times that since open-source is now an active target, the newer generations of hardware will have taken these issues into account and this sort of problem should happen less. For example, newer generations of UVD should be accessible to open drivers, just the way Intel's decoding hardware is.

    I don't understand why you are complaining about AMD entering into DRM agreements, either, unless it is just a foil to 'justify' you shouting at people. It is as simple as this: graphics hardware needs to be DRM-compliant or it won't sell. The idea of them changing this just to work better for open-source customers is, due to market realities, sort've laughable. Some of your other posts paint you as rather a Conservative, so this should be something you understand.

    Also, FWIW, your conspiracy theories make you sound slightly crazy.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bridgman View Post
    You mean "we would make hardware that could only be sold in 1-2% of the PC market" ? Seriously, I don't know why you feel compelled to blame us for everything in the PC industry and make sneaky suggestions that somehow "it's just us".
    I'm sure amd can make profit in making hardware for 1-2% of the most computer addicted people on earth.

    thats the REAL point!

  6. #26

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    AMD makes a mistake by tying itself too much to the Microsoft Windows platform. Big mistake! If they want to a piece of the growing tablet and mobile market they should forget about Windows. Nobody wants Windows on their phone, tablet or other mobile device!



    AMD should focus on getting good Linux/Android support for their hardware, this is the future for tablets not Windows.

  7. #27
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    If something depends on DRM, I'd rather not have that thing, period. At least not until the DRM is reliably broken and I am guaranteed the ability to use what I bought on the device of my choice and at the time and place I choose to.

    If there were really so many details to getting HDMI audio to work, it wouldn't be relatively well working through reverse engineering. They need to be honest that the reason for a few people booting up with blank screens due to the reverse engineered code that is "not always right" is because of their organized crime bosses at Apple, Microsoft, and Hollywood. Even though Bridgman tries to be apologists by making it sound like the DRM plague isn't all the fault of the aforementioned companies and the companies that work with them (mostly AMD, Nvidia, and Intel), they're probably more than 95% of the problem between just the ones I've mentioned.

    Don't worry, the criminals buy laws to make you the criminal for foiling their plot and working around the limitations they've put into their products. I wonder when AMD plans to obfuscate HDMI audio further so that it can't be made to work at all. Probably whenever Hollywood and Microsoft and Apple tell them to.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    I'm sure amd can make profit in making hardware for 1-2% of the most computer addicted people on earth.

    thats the REAL point!
    They work with the "industry" (really Apple and Microsoft and Hollywood) to screw over their users and claim "everyone" (being AMD, Intel, and Nvidia all do it) as if that justifies their dishonest business practices.

    Collaborators with all kinds of criminals throughout history have used similar excuses and it didn't fly then either.

  9. #29
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    Worth noting. When you use the words "everyone" and "industry" to talk about a grand total of 5 or 6 companies, it means that there would be antitrust issues investigated if our government wasn't bought by these companies to begin with.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    I'm sure amd can make profit in making hardware for 1-2% of the most computer addicted people on earth.

    thats the REAL point!
    1-2% of a market where many are just as much "free as in beer" as "free as in freedom", on a platform that has no high-end games to speak of and that will lack many features simply because it's not within AMDs power to deliver them legally so people will continue to whine and not buy it. Your point has no basis in reality....

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