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Thread: "Ask ATI" dev thread

  1. #811
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    We're happy little vegemites, as bright as bright can be....
    (aka - people, relax)

    Latest games generally require the OS they were designed on. Wine is a fantastic project, but does not (and really can not) compete with a native windows installation. It does allow some older games to be played easily, which is generally great for entertainment. I also played Still Life (with some tweaking of *.dll files) under wine, where it wouldn't work under vista. So let's not bash wine. Or any open source games - these people do stuff in their free time, so if you don't like it, fine, but just don't bash it.
    Being said, let's also keep in mind that applications use the binary drivers, not vice-versa. I don't think ATi should have to fix bugs for KDE. And they won't. They will stabalise their drivers, fix bugs in xorg interactions, etc, but they will not fix KDE. In this regard, the primary work from ATI will be making it work according to a given interface first, and then making it not fall over if people don't abide by that interface second.

    Open source does not automagically make something great. Proprietary does not make something bad. Writing drivers is bloody difficult. Vegemite is awesome.

  2. #812
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    Thumbs down

    I have nothing against wine. In fact we rely on wine to local-test some windows version of the clients.

    What I was ranting about is this mentality that binary blobs are evil and foss is awesome. Games are binary blobs and are light years way better from every point of view from foss games which are puppeded up here and there on the sole attribute that they are foss. Any rational comparison of gameplay and features between TA-Spring and Supreme Commander which I can buy for as low as 18E will make the glorious foss copy-cat look like a comparison between DOS 6.22 and Ubuntu 9...

    Second, the overall mentality is that foss is always good and, therefore, when something breaks while using Compiz or Wine on ATi's evil binary blob it's ATi's fault. FOSS is so awesome it can't be their fault... ATi should fix it in a new release... What a load of crap!

    Also I don't bash any foss games. Is that the guy's mentality is that there are foss games and we should all be happy, as if they are of equal quality and/or complexity. One of the main reasons Linux takes flak with the "illiterate crowd" is that it can't run games.
    The solution isn't a hacked os api emulator, since it will always offer inferior quality to running games on the platform they were design and built to run, but to have game developers publish games natively on linux. Apparently people want a windows environment without paying for windows. If you move to Linux just to run x,y,z games in wine, photoshop in wine, ie7 in wine and so on, you'd better stay on windows.

  3. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNCFarraday View Post
    why? windows games works perfekt in wine on an fgrlx 9.9...

    "TA-Spring,Sauerbraten,nexuiz, generall WINE"

    Do you play these games because you've been locked in cave for the last 15 years or just because they are foss?

    TA-Spring is an engine, not a game, and most of the games based on that engine are piss-poor rts clones of games I played almost a decade ago.

    Similary, Sauerbraten and Nexuiz are piss poor Ut/Q[23] clones. I already played UT and Q2 ages ago. Maybe you should take a look at more interesting, challenging and more well designed non-foss games and see what's been going on in the "proprietary" world for the last 15 years.

    If you play them because they are foss, and foss is the only god and foss created adam and eve, then you, and those like you are like a reverse-EA. EA only cares about graphics, they pump shit after shit based on looks and effects, without any concern to gameplay. You and foss fanatics, apparently are stubborn to play 10-15 years old gaemplay games just because they are foss, without any consideration to gameplay (or graphics for that fact).

    Point me to some CREATIVE, INTELLIGENT foss game, not a piss-poor copy of a 10 yo game that I played for years on my K6-2.

    "thats realy importand for you why? hd4350,tyan-thunter-3600b-dual-socketF-opteron 2216 3 harddrives overall 2,3TB.. "

    You game on a dual-socket server workstation... Right...

    "why? windows games works perfekt in wine on an fgrlx 9.9..."

    Really? Again, what does work "perfekt"? Deus-Ex? Quake3? The only reason I keep windows on a hdd is to play from time to time some games, like: TF2, CIV4, SupCom, L4D, SC. None work on wine. SC "works", but you need a 3Ghz dual core to have the same smooth gameplay you have on 1Ghz k7... And it doesn;t even use 3D features of any GPU...

    Wine doesn't "work perfekt" for 99.9% of the games out there. Keeping an XP hdd just for games is the logical solution.

    "looking porn at youporn in flash works well on the radeon driver :-)"

    Riiight... youporn on a 2-socket server... Apart from this, maybe you can give me some insights as what does Flash have to do with the radeon driver? Flash is piss-poor and slow on its own and more so, doesn't use ANY GPU features, not even the Mac/Windows versions who, supposedly are more carefully developed than the linux one.

    "KDE4.3 works faster on fglrx i have some litle timehangs on some funktions. FGLRX will fix this in version 9.11!!!!!!!!"

    I'm sorry, for a second there you had me believed ATi develops KDE... Maybe KDE's raster libraries are piss-poor. Put away the vista-like eyecandy and use gnome. I have NO problems with gnome.
    you are realy realy hart.

    "Do you play these games because you've been locked in cave for the last 15 years or just because they are foss?"

    i also play HON-Beta and world of goo on linux and Oblivion in wine and ArmA2 on windows becourse this game is the overkill for wine ;-)
    but i play OFP in WINE.

    "TA-Spring is an engine" i know that point but thats new in my past TA-spring was not an engine 2 years ago it was a game. i like the mod XTA and 1944

    "Similary, Sauerbraten and Nexuiz are piss poor Ut/Q[23] clones. I already played UT and Q2 ages ago. Maybe you should take a look at more interesting, challenging and more well designed non-foss games and see what's been going on in the "proprietary" world for the last 15 years."

    come one my Favorit egoshoters are urbanterror and alienarena :-) but yes intel IPG is good for this games.

    "Point me to some CREATIVE, INTELLIGENT foss game, not a piss-poor copy of a 10 yo game that I played for years on my K6-2."

    you are realy hart the intelligent one.. Frozenbubble! the creativ one my be Scorched 3D i lilke it :-)

    "You game on a dual-socket server workstation... Right..."

    right :-)

    "Really? Again, what does work "perfekt"? Deus-Ex? Quake3? The only reason I keep windows on a hdd is to play from time to time some games, like: TF2, CIV4, SupCom, L4D, SC. None work on wine. SC "works", but you need a 3Ghz dual core to have the same smooth gameplay you have on 1Ghz k7... And it doesn;t even use 3D features of any GPU...
    Wine doesn't "work perfekt" for 99.9% of the games out there. Keeping an XP hdd just for games is the logical solution."

    o yes OpenGL3.2 will fix this problem becourse of the wine-openGL extansions.

    Oblivion works good on wine with fglrx 9.9


    "Riiight... youporn on a 2-socket server... Apart from this, maybe you can give me some insights as what does Flash have to do with the radeon driver? Flash is piss-poor and slow on its own and more so, doesn't use ANY GPU features, not even the Mac/Windows versions who, supposedly are more carefully developed than the linux one."

    you also can use wine for the windows firefox and windows Flash player to use OpenGL extansions.

    "I'm sorry, for a second there you had me believed ATi develops KDE... Maybe KDE's raster libraries are piss-poor. Put away the vista-like eyecandy and use gnome. I have NO problems with gnome."

    rrealy in 9.11 will come some kde improvments...

  4. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNCFarraday View Post
    I have nothing against wine. In fact we rely on wine to local-test some windows version of the clients.

    What I was ranting about is this mentality that binary blobs are evil and foss is awesome. Games are binary blobs and are light years way better from every point of view from foss games which are puppeded up here and there on the sole attribute that they are foss. Any rational comparison of gameplay and features between TA-Spring and Supreme Commander which I can buy for as low as 18E will make the glorious foss copy-cat look like a comparison between DOS 6.22 and Ubuntu 9...

    Second, the overall mentality is that foss is always good and, therefore, when something breaks while using Compiz or Wine on ATi's evil binary blob it's ATi's fault. FOSS is so awesome it can't be their fault... ATi should fix it in a new release... What a load of crap!

    Also I don't bash any foss games. Is that the guy's mentality is that there are foss games and we should all be happy, as if they are of equal quality and/or complexity. One of the main reasons Linux takes flak with the "illiterate crowd" is that it can't run games.
    The solution isn't a hacked os api emulator, since it will always offer inferior quality to running games on the platform they were design and built to run, but to have game developers publish games natively on linux. Apparently people want a windows environment without paying for windows. If you move to Linux just to run x,y,z games in wine, photoshop in wine, ie7 in wine and so on, you'd better stay on windows.
    why stay on windows? on my pc wine is 244% faster on testing windows version of zlib than windows xp !

    thats becourse of the multicore part in XP is very very slow 4 cores is to much for XP..

  5. #815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaridarium View Post
    ou are realy hart the intelligent one.. Frozenbubble! the creativ one my be Scorched 3D i lilke it :-)
    Do you have any idea at all how old Scorched Earth is? I admit though, the extensions to the original innovative idea of Scorched Earth they've thought of are pretty neat.

  6. #816
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    "you also can use wine for the windows firefox and windows Flash player to use OpenGL extansions. "

    windows flash + windows firefox in wine on linux... Words fail me...

    "why stay on windows? on my pc wine is 244% faster on testing windows version of zlib than windows xp !"

    I don't "stay" on windows. I've been using various Linux and *BSD for the last 10+ years. I have 4 linux machines at home and one FreeBsd, at work I have a linux workstation and deploy and test on an array of linux hpc servers.

    However, i keep an XP hdd in the Gentoo machine to play games because, like it or not, the only games I play either don't run at all in wine or are barely playable on a quad core with 8GB ram...

    There is a fundamental problem with wine in that it makes it easier for people to... use windows apps on linux. The goal is not to give people a free windows clone where they can run ie7, photoshop, some games and, in your case firefox+flash, but to build quality apps and games that make no need for these things, thus no need for wine.

    The bottom line is that wine is pointless and counterproductive. Instead of investing all the energy in developing and testing wine, that energy should be focused on making and maintaining apps that fill the gap wine is used to stuff right now.

    Every time you advocate running a game developed and built for the windows os platform in wine, you are basically saying that linux sucks as a game platform. And maybe that's the problem. Instead of reverse-engineering crap for wine and second guessing if x syscall from redmond has 12 parameters or 18, with 6 always null pointers,developers should talk to game publishers and try to find out what is needed so they can release on linux. Everything that DirectX does can be done on linux. From a functionality pov it's all there. What's missing is a common interface. (well yeah, maybe linux sound still sucks and needs work). At th very least, a priority should be to build up facades over OSS, ALSA and so on so someone working on a game can use ONE common interface that will work on any distro. Maybe the linux sound system isn't such a good point, but, in general, there's no "package" that guarantees developers that they can build on top of it and it will work on ANY distro.

    If every distro wants it their way, fine, but at least come together and provide a common facade, so devs don't have to learn some obscure gtk+ crap or some alsa-only bug.

  7. #817
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    There are no "wine extensions" for opengl. There are extensions that will allow more portable code or data structures between APIs, and it so happens that wine could definitely make use of these (wine devs will have to do that themselves!). Just wanted to clear that up.

    Same again for KDE most likely. Later fglrx drivers won't magically make KDE any better. Period. Bugs may be fixed that KDE devs may work around, and won't have to anymore, or new features can be included that will be of use to KDE - but the the KDE devs will have to take advantage of that.

  8. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanonyme View Post
    Do you have any idea at all how old Scorched Earth is? I admit though, the extensions to the original innovative idea of Scorched Earth they've thought of are pretty neat.
    i know it.. but its an nice game.

  9. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirv View Post
    There are no "wine extensions" for opengl. There are extensions that will allow more portable code or data structures between APIs, and it so happens that wine could definitely make use of these (wine devs will have to do that themselves!). Just wanted to clear that up.

    Same again for KDE most likely. Later fglrx drivers won't magically make KDE any better. Period. Bugs may be fixed that KDE devs may work around, and won't have to anymore, or new features can be included that will be of use to KDE - but the the KDE devs will have to take advantage of that.
    there is no need to clear that up i know it but by english is not so good :-)

    KDE... fglrx will fix some RandR problems thats the point to improve kde :-)

  10. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNCFarraday View Post
    "you also can use wine for the windows firefox and windows Flash player to use OpenGL extansions. "

    windows flash + windows firefox in wine on linux... Words fail me...

    "why stay on windows? on my pc wine is 244% faster on testing windows version of zlib than windows xp !"

    I don't "stay" on windows. I've been using various Linux and *BSD for the last 10+ years. I have 4 linux machines at home and one FreeBsd, at work I have a linux workstation and deploy and test on an array of linux hpc servers.

    However, i keep an XP hdd in the Gentoo machine to play games because, like it or not, the only games I play either don't run at all in wine or are barely playable on a quad core with 8GB ram...

    There is a fundamental problem with wine in that it makes it easier for people to... use windows apps on linux. The goal is not to give people a free windows clone where they can run ie7, photoshop, some games and, in your case firefox+flash, but to build quality apps and games that make no need for these things, thus no need for wine.

    The bottom line is that wine is pointless and counterproductive. Instead of investing all the energy in developing and testing wine, that energy should be focused on making and maintaining apps that fill the gap wine is used to stuff right now.

    Every time you advocate running a game developed and built for the windows os platform in wine, you are basically saying that linux sucks as a game platform. And maybe that's the problem. Instead of reverse-engineering crap for wine and second guessing if x syscall from redmond has 12 parameters or 18, with 6 always null pointers,developers should talk to game publishers and try to find out what is needed so they can release on linux. Everything that DirectX does can be done on linux. From a functionality pov it's all there. What's missing is a common interface. (well yeah, maybe linux sound still sucks and needs work). At th very least, a priority should be to build up facades over OSS, ALSA and so on so someone working on a game can use ONE common interface that will work on any distro. Maybe the linux sound system isn't such a good point, but, in general, there's no "package" that guarantees developers that they can build on top of it and it will work on ANY distro.

    If every distro wants it their way, fine, but at least come together and provide a common facade, so devs don't have to learn some obscure gtk+ crap or some alsa-only bug.
    right but idtech5-Rage will not be portet to linux.
    unreal-T-3 will not be portet on linux ........

    S2 games ports HON to linux well nice!

    you see witout wine.. Linux Die for the gamers..

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