7.12 - speculation time...

[mo0n_sniper]

hmmm....."linux gaming" what's that?
The games I play on Linux are meant for windows(heroes 3,counter strike and disciple II, I play them threw wine because they are not native.No one budder to make them for linux).Try to run World Of Warcraft with Ati drivers on linux.
On my 1.6 Ghz dual core ,1 GB of ram machine they play like on a 133 Mhz ,64 Mb of ram windows machine.Spot the difference?.So why should anyone release their software on linux when on linux you don't have decent drivers(mostly from ATI retards) and decent video rendering.
I hope that on 2008 i'll see some Amd graphics improvements.



Sorry for my bad english.

[Melcar]

I'll be honest to all the people bitching about the developers and calling them useless. That isn't going to get driver support done any better. Haven't you ever heard of using a carrot instead of the stick?

Help the developer with good bug reports and thank them when they fix things , as well as having a bit of patience and they'll want to come here and help you.

I'm a developer myself and if I was working for AMD/ATI I wouldn't come here to be bitched at by fanbois. How do you feel when you get nagged at all the time by your boss? your teacher? your parents? or your family? Why do you think they feel any different?

If you don't like AMD/ATI linux driver support then email the AMD/ATI management and sales people and if you get fed up waiting and change to another graphics card then email AMD/ATI management and sales and tell them why. It's no point taking it out on the developers they can't get more resources to work on it , it's the management who can do that and they will do that if driven by sales.

I'll be honest though I reckon 2008 will be a good year for AMD/ATI support, we'll get better support in fglrx and we'll also have an open source driver that'll have good 3D support when AMD/ATI release the specs. It'll be interesting to see if it ends up being better than fglrx.

I'm not an AMD/ATI fanboi. When I bought this laptop with ATI X1600 mobility graphics. I didn't even think of linux driver support. I was using windows at the time even though at university when I was doing my computer science degree. I'd used the unix boxes there (with fvwm95) for development and played around with the config files. I'd also had a look at other linux distributions earlier. I wasn't scared of the command line and a few hassles. Windows just did what I needed at home. Ubuntu made it easy enough and I'd got enough support that it wasn't going to be a continual battle so I've switched and only reboot into windows to play games.

There are scripts in phorogit to handle that I think and then there is Kano's script.

I have been making it a habit of submitting feedback every chance I get. It's always better to be constructive to your ends is what I say.

hmmm....."linux gaming" what's that?
The games I play on Linux are meant for windows(heroes 3,counter strike and disciple II, I play them threw wine because they are not native.No one budder to make them for linux).Try to run World Of Warcraft with Ati drivers on linux.
On my 1.6 Ghz dual core ,1 GB of ram machine they play like on a 133 Mhz ,64 Mb of ram windows machine.Spot the difference?.So why should anyone release their software on linux when on linux you don't have decent drivers(mostly from ATI retards) and decent video rendering.
I hope that on 2008 i'll see some Amd graphics improvements.

Most of my games are Windows titles, and while I can make some of them to work in Wine, ever since I made the move to Linux I have made it a habit to just use Linux native games. Using the latest 7.11s I can play every single Linux game out there with my X1950XT, and even the likes of Doom 3.
I prefer to believe that the reason games remain mostly a Windows thing is because it is us, the consumers, that keep demanding them. If the demand were to shift to Linux games, maybe then developers would start re-thinking. It's all about money anyway, and the money is on Windows gaming.

[yoshi314]

I'm a developer myself and if I was working for AMD/ATI I wouldn't come here to be bitched at by fanbois. How do you feel when you get nagged at all the time by your boss? your teacher? your parents? or your family? Why do you think they feel any different?

they don't come here. there is no contact with them. chicken and egg problem?

talking to a wall is frustrating.

If you don't like AMD/ATI linux driver support then email the AMD/ATI management and sales people and if you get fed up waiting and change to another graphics card then email AMD/ATI management and sales and tell them why. It's no point taking it out on the developers they can't get more resources to work on it , it's the management who can do that and they will do that if driven by sales.

management only cares about the numbers. we are linux users, a mere couple % of the market. do you think they care about every single one of us?

we don't have enough power to make a difference, besides ati sells its chips to other vendors, and that's where most of us get their cards from. i consider ati's specification initiative a miracle, taking into account our desktop share.

[Svartalf]

I'll be honest to all the people bitching about the developers and calling them useless. That isn't going to get driver support done any better. Haven't you ever heard of using a carrot instead of the stick?

Help the developer with good bug reports and thank them when they fix things , as well as having a bit of patience and they'll want to come here and help you.

What you're seeing is the end result of AMD (In the form of ATI, when it was a separate entity...) NOT listening to us for years now. What you're seeing is an end result of us DOING what you suggest, only to get silence. Talking to a brick wall gets old. John Bridgman's been interacting with us in the forums, which is a major improvement. The biggest problem here is that AMD overpromised and underdelivered on the drivers at this point- until they at least deliver something USEFUL to everyone or get us the tech specs out the door, you're going to see people taking pot-shots at them. Since John Bridgman started showing around here and talking WITH us, you'll note that I largely quit taking swipes at them. If I don't see results here after a while, though...

I'm a developer myself and if I was working for AMD/ATI I wouldn't come here to be bitched at by fanbois. How do you feel when you get nagged at all the time by your boss? your teacher? your parents? or your family? Why do you think they feel any different?

Considering that these bugs they currently have would have gotten AMD laughed out of the business if they'd done this to the Windows side, there should probably be a little leave-way in things. The memory leak that's induced on R500 series parts with a SIMPLE app that should have been pretty much the first test app is pretty much an embarassing and largely inexcusable mistake in an already bad situation for them. They don't understand Linux. They have had the opportunity for some time now to staff the Linux side of things up (Don't think desktop, think general purpose supercomputing- GPUs excel as coprocessors for cluster computing...) and they've chosen to lower their staffing until recently on anything OpenGL related...

Not really something that engenders anything other than rebukes, if you think about it.

If you don't like AMD/ATI linux driver support then email the AMD/ATI management and sales people and if you get fed up waiting and change to another graphics card then email AMD/ATI management and sales and tell them why. It's no point taking it out on the developers they can't get more resources to work on it , it's the management who can do that and they will do that if driven by sales.

We've been DOING that. Myself, especially. I can tell you up-front, that they didn't listen for the last 2-3 years when they knew there were real problems and that there was a market segment they needed to be in that they weren't at all supporting right. They were more interested in chasing Microsoft than anything else at that time. Honest.

I'm with you in thinking 2008 will be a vastly better year, but don't presume that what you're suggesting hasn't been done. It has. It got met with a thundering silence and broken drivers (things that they knew about not working in the old codebase that went unfixed until 8.40 and some of them are still unfixed, there's things MISSING in the support in 8.4X (now known as 8.11..) that should be there, and so forth. I've tempered my remarks because of what all I know (and can't tell..) but in the same space, I can't ask them to do the same. I understand why.

[yoshi314]

What you're seeing is the end result of AMD NOT listening to us for years now.

a bug in the driver which exists for months/years is even worse. e.g missing opengl 2.1 support, poor performance, 64bit xv crashes - this things lasted entire months.

[container]

When will be the normal scrolling in Firefox and Opera under Compiz? Will it be in 7.12? It is the major bug for me.

Yeah, it's bad. I don't use Compiz simply because it seems to perform badly. But is it any better if you use Nvidia? I thought it was not the driver's fault, but simply that firefox and compiz aren't "designed" to work together in any way.
Usually, it seems that the backends slow it down - like, try to maximize a gnome-terminal with compiz on, and you'll have to wait for the terminal window to adjust the text rows and columns, which is always slow. Thus, the wobble animation can't be smooth...

[Melcar]

Yeah, it's bad. I don't use Compiz simply because it seems to perform badly. But is it any better if you use Nvidia? I thought it was not the driver's fault, but simply that firefox and compiz aren't "designed" to work together in any way.
Usually, it seems that the backends slow it down - like, try to maximize a gnome-terminal with compiz on, and you'll have to wait for the terminal window to adjust the text rows and columns, which is always slow. Thus, the wobble animation can't be smooth...

I found the scrolling issue in FF to go away if I uncheck "smooth scrolling". An interesting thing I noticed is that this same slow down is also partially present on their Windows drivers, thought not as bad.

[kirù]

It didn't work for me

[Svartalf]

Yeah, it's bad. I don't use Compiz simply because it seems to perform badly. But is it any better if you use Nvidia? I thought it was not the driver's fault, but simply that firefox and compiz aren't "designed" to work together in any way.

It seems to work rather nicely with NVidia AND R200 parts on the systems that I use. Quite simply, if you're using fglrx, your options on many things are limited either because of the unstable operation of the new code-core drivers or because of the low performing drivers with the old fglrx. You get decent performance with the top end parts, but if you're working with something like an RV515, you're not going to be happy with a lot of things on the ATI/AMD side...

[d2kx]

7.12 - speculation time...

Wednesday.