Page 5 of 20 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 195

Thread: Goodbye ATI

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    At the end of the day, it would seem that AMD treats Linux more like a second-class citizen than NVidia. Not that this isn't justified. They have their numbers on how many Linux users buy their hardware; the vast majority of their income comes from Windows users. So it is justified that their Linux support is lacking. Do not forget that they're a business, not a charity organization.
    Thats just not correct! Linux is about opensource development that brings by far more choice, security and options!! Linux can do anything windoze can do and much much more! You want your game for linux? No problem - every single piece in gaming stack is HERE! You want to distribute your game? No problem - package management and even desura are here! You want to distribute proprietary game (which model is not on paar to FLOSS; but - windows uses SO MUCH GPL and BSD, this question is just ethical, not technical) - NO PROBLEM!

    I see no reason to prefer windows over linux, except.... THE CARD YOU PURCHASE HAS PUNY DRIVERS BECAUSE CARD MANUFACTURER DOES NOT CARE. You are BUYING their CARD, so you have RIGHT TO RECIEVE SUPPORT FOR OS YOU USE! Linux is MAINSTREAM OS!!

    As a MANUFACTURER you are either INTERESTED IN THAT MARKET SEGMENT, or NOT. We are not talking about ANY charity! You are voting with MONEY.

    The main difference between my position and AMD current position is that I expect "opensource" attribute to become a BONUS together with existing attributes, like performance, hardware support range, features, software stack support. You can sacrifice SOME for the other, but you will NOT sacrifice COMPANY SUPPORT behind "opensource" attributed driver.

    This is what Intel does.

    AMD on the other hand wants opensource to be some kind of fall-back, legacy hardware driver. Their official position is that opensource WILL NOT bring them more card sales! Hence they keep opensource crew at 4 members! They say linux market is 1%. They also say amount of engineers working on windows driver is 1000. Whats 1% from 1000? And for lack of ANY further interest in linux, they even refuse to provide ANY kind of backtracking mechanism, which means they DO NOT CARE for opensource driver as being ANY keypoint to their SELLING.

    Now if you start reading previous paragraph BACKWARDS you will see what they SHOULD do to gain more linux sales!

    You say - there is no apples here.. I have hunger - I want to buy some(shows money), Im 1% of population of earth - other live in city smoges.

    They justify it as following:
    - it is desert 25 kilometers till river
    - the river has many alligators
    - we have no money to get there too
    - you should go live in smog city
    See? They just justify their position with situation. This is not called "development" or "envolvement" or "progress". This is called ignorance.
    --- we do not care!

    But they *should* be doing it this way:
    - how much of you are here?
    - how much will it cost to lay pipes and kill aligators and plant trees?
    - can you start signing for every apple we sell you, that you would like to eat it in desert?
    ... watching response to expendetures, moduling situation
    -> carrying out the plan: laying pipes, selling apples, getting MORE profit as desert becomes GREEN. Due to THEIR ACTION.
    or
    -> officially stating we sell apples only in cities and allowing OTHER to recieve profit.

    Lets sum up:
    they refuse to do statistics or any kind of feedback
    they refuse to see opensource as selling point at any point in future or today
    they refuse to stand behind opensource driver except funding 4-5 people that simply have NO PHYSICAL ability to back it up on paar with fglrx
    they refuse to give you ability to vote with your money

    Where will their opensource driver do good for you? When you purchase VERY OLD card, and even then it will not be completely backed-up (company support?).

    From my point of view, they are just tunnel-visioned or ignorant, or both. If Intel introduces own discrete GPU or APU modular accelerator in form of slotted PCIE card - intel will be driving all linux sales!
    Last edited by crazycheese; 02-08-2012 at 03:51 AM.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    3,788

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    Thats just not correct! Linux is about opensource development that brings by far more choice, security and options!!
    I don't see how Linux is about open source. It's about doing with it whatever you want to. You are not required to be open source if you want to support Linux. Open source is a good thing (I provide most of my own work under an open source license), but not mandatory.

    Linux can do anything windoze can do and much much more!
    No one said otherwise. I prefer Linux not because it's open source, but because it's better than Windows, at least for my needs and uses.

    You are BUYING their CARD, so you have RIGHT TO RECIEVE SUPPORT FOR OS YOU USE! Linux is MAINSTREAM OS!!
    You only have the right to receive support for whatever was promised to you. If you buy something that advertises Linux support, then you have the right to that support. If Linux is not mentioned, then Linux support is not one of your rights.
    Last edited by RealNC; 02-08-2012 at 03:41 AM.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    You only have the right to receive support for whatever was promised to you. If you buy something that advertises Linux support, then you have the right to that support. If Linux is not mentioned, then Linux support is not one of your rights.
    This is why I asked Bridgeman to STEP BEHIND THE OPENSOURCE DRIVER at some time. He was like "Eh?"
    Nvidia supports Linux. Gigabyte supports ONLY windows - which is why I never buy Gigabyte.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    I find that Intel is actually the best solution for the non-gamer. It has good performance for compositing desktops and also video acceleration which enhances the battery life on laptops. But if you want to run commercial 3D games, especially the so called "AAA titles", with all their eye candy and smooth framerates, Intel is the last thing you want. Which leaves ATI and NVidia and their binary drivers (forget the open drivers; not playing at 1920x1080 with as near to 60FPS as possible is not doing it.) And when it comes to binary drivers, NVidia wins. Having VDPAU and what seems the best support from Wine simply sounds like the better option.
    What are you talking about?

    AMD/ATI with open source Linux divers beats the socks off Intel in terms of bang-for-buck.

    Both Intel and AMD/ATI have open source drivers for Linux. Intel's drivers are written by Intel, and Intel set the direction for them. AMD/ATI drivers are written by the Xorg community and by AMD employees. This is far more of a true open source development.

    Other than that difference, and the far better bang-for-buck hardware for AMD/ATI GPUs, other aspects of the open source drivers are more or less the same. Intel drivers are no further along in terms of function or capability. AMD/ATI are no less stable. Both drivers are part of, and delivered with, the Linux kernel itself, and so they don't break with a kernel update. Both drivers implement KMS, and so will eventually be able to run Wayland.

    Here is the Feature Matrix for the AMD/ATI open source driver:
    http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature

    Here is the equivalent list for the Intel driver
    http://www.x.org/wiki/IntelGraphicsDriver

    The Intel driver has better support for video decode. Video Decode (XvMC/VDPAU/VA-API) using the 3D engine is still a work in progress for the Radeon driver. So far it is only partly in place, but eventually it will support VDPAU, which the Intel driver does not.

    Other than that there is, essentially, nothing to chose between them, other than the facts that AMD/ATI is far better hardware and has more community participation and more open governance development.
    Last edited by hal2k1; 02-08-2012 at 04:05 AM.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    3,788

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hal2k1 View Post
    What are you talking about?

    AMD/ATI with open source Linux divers beats the socks off Intel in terms of bang-for-buck.
    I was under the impression that power management and GPU accelerated MPEG video works best on Intel drivers. Which is why Intel looks like the better option for laptops.


    Both Intel and AMD/ATI have open source drivers for Linux. Intel's drivers are written by Intel, and Intel set the direction for them. AMD/ATI drivers are written by the Xorg community and by AMD employees. This is far more of a true open source development.
    True open source development doesn't impact the importance of power management and video acceleration on saving lots of battery power.

    Intel drivers are no further along in terms of function or capability.
    You mean to say that Intel also lacks power management and video acceleration? OK, I didn't know that. From what I've been reading here, Intel drivers were supporting those extremely important features.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    You only have the right to receive support for whatever was promised to you. If you buy something that advertises Linux support, then you have the right to that support. If Linux is not mentioned, then Linux support is not one of your rights.
    Indeed. Precisely so.

    This is the precise reason why the Radeon open source driver, written by the open source community from programming specifications provided by AMD/ATI, is by far the best bet.

    Not only is the AMD/ATI underlying hardware far better value for money, but this driver is the ONLY driver for which the ongoing ability to support it, and the capability to fix issues according to their own priorities, lies with the open source community and not with the OEM of the GPU.

    nVidia were able to drop support for legacy GPUs in their nvidia closed binary driver, and ATI could do the same for their closed fglrx driver, but this can't and won't happen for the open source Radeon driver from Xorg.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    You mean to say that Intel also lacks power management and video acceleration? OK, I didn't know that. From what I've been reading here, Intel drivers were supporting those extremely important features.
    No, I mean to say that the Radeon open source drivers don't lack support for power management,

    http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature#...gement_Options

    and the issue of the programming specifications for UVD video acceleration hardware being withheld (probably because of DRM associated with HDCP over HDMI) is being worked around using the 3D features of the GPUs. This approach will hopefully bring accelerated video decoding even to legacy GPUs which lack such support embedded in the hardware directly.

    Once again, for the Radeon open source drivers, the aims and directions of the code development are not decided by the OEM of the GPU. This is simply not the case for any other graphics driver for Linux except Nouveau, which is constrained instead by the need to reverse engineer.
    Last edited by hal2k1; 02-08-2012 at 04:36 AM.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    3,788

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hal2k1 View Post
    No, I mean to say that the Radeon open source drivers don't lack support for power management,

    http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature#...gement_Options
    Looks good. Didn't know they got it working. It never worked for me. even using latest Git versions of the driver. Even if I use the low profile, my temps are around 80C. With Catalyst, they go down to low 70's.

    Maybe it only works on mobile GPUs, no idea. Phoronix should do a power management benchmark on this; Intel vs AMD and see which one provides lower power consumption.

    and the issue of the programming specifications for UVD video acceleration hardware being withheld (probably because of DRM associated with HDMI) is being worked around using the 3D features of the GPUs. This approach will hopefully bring accelerated video decoding even to legacy GPUs which lack such support embedded in the hardware directly.
    So OK, in some years from now, AMD will be just as good as Intel. Not right now though.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    Looks good. Didn't know they got it working. It never worked for me. even using latest Git versions of the driver. Even if I use the low profile, my temps are around 80C. With Catalyst, they go down to low 70's.

    Maybe it only works on mobile GPUs, no idea. Phoronix should do a power management benchmark on this; Intel vs AMD and see which one provides lower power consumption.


    So OK, in some years from now, AMD will be just as good as Intel. Not right now though.
    On my only AMD/ATI-based netbook, temperature runs at 69-70 dgeC.

    The support for video decode acceleration and VDPAU is almost there.

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=OTY2OQ

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=OTQ1MQ

    XvMC support has landed

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=ODcxOA

    So it won't be "a few years".

    I see you have no comment on the most salient points.

    1. AMD/ATI hardware is far better bang-for-buck

    2. For the Radeon open source drivers, the aims and directions of the code development are not decided by the OEM of the GPU. This is simply not the case for any other graphics driver for Linux except Nouveau, which is constrained instead by the need to reverse engineer.
    Last edited by hal2k1; 02-08-2012 at 05:07 AM.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    3,788

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hal2k1 View Post
    On my only AMD/ATI-based netbook, temperature runs at 69-70 dgeC.

    The support for video decode acceleration and VDPAU is almost there.

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=OTY2OQ

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=OTQ1MQ
    I'll believe it when it works :-)

    XvMC support has landed
    No one cares about that. H.264 is where battery power goes.

    So it won't be "a few years".
    Again, I'll believe it when it works. And what do you expect anyway? Someone asks me what laptop to buy and I tell them one with AMD graphics? When they put Linux on it and wonder why stuff doesn't work, they're going to kill me. I'm suggesting what works *now*. That is what's important. Intel is a very safe bet right now. And if they want to run 3D games on it, I'm recommending NVidia. Under no circumstance can I truly recommend AMD as of this moment. If I did, they would come back 3 days later and throw their problematic laptop at my face.

    I see you have no comment on the most salient points.

    1. AMD/ATI hardware is far better bang-for-buck
    On Windows. This is a Linux forum and we're talking about the open source driver. The open source AMD driver is slow.

    2. For the Radeon open source drivers, the aims and directions of the code development are not decided by the OEM of the GPU. This is simply not the case for any other graphics driver for Linux except Nouveau, which is constrained instead by the need to reverse engineer.
    I don't see how this is important. Not a single person where I installed Linux on his/her machine even cared about the license of the driver. The only thing they care is that it works.
    Last edited by RealNC; 02-08-2012 at 05:20 AM.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •